Rocky time in my marriage

altinneed · March 2014

So, I feel like I should start out with the basics - I'm pretty sure this is going to be long.

My wife and I met / started dating about seven years ago - married for five and have an almost-kindergarten age daughter. Everything planned, etc. Outside my wife and family, I don't really have close personal relationships with anyone. I fell out of touch with the small circle of friends I had before we met, and while I've got 'work friends', we work with a lot of the same people. I just don't really have anyone to talk to and really need to share and maybe get some advice.

We've been going through a bit of a rough patch lately. I'm partially to blame - I can sometimes be oblivious to everything around me - including her and her feelings. Our intimacy has fallen off a lot - we'll go weeks or sometimes even a month without being together. She's usually not in the mood or is too tired or I pooped earlier and killed her mood or whatever. Then she thinks I don't want to be with her, and if I try and be close I'm 'only being that way because I want something'.

We bicker a bit - she feels that (somewhat rightfully) she's always the bad guy with my daughter / I think she needs to lighten up or let more things go. We pretty much never fight about money. Yeah, I need to do a better job wiping up counters or picking up my socks. But generally, we don't 'fight fight' about those things.

She's had a lot of stress in her life about different things. She's been concerned about her appearance, major issues on her side of the family, work-related stress, and some long-term money stressors - and a whole cascade of other stressors that come from those problems.

About a month ago, we had a big fight over me not respecting her / trying to put her down / proving my mental superiority. It was a pretty nasty fight because I didn't think I was disrespecting her and purposefully tried to be aware of it, she felt otherwise, etc. Normal fight - we've fought about it before and I always promise to try harder to respect her and so-on. But after the initial fighting, we didn't talk for a while and she didn't want to talk to me about it. I didn't force the issue, she felt that I was ignoring her / her feelings and just fine, and before we talked it through she said she'd had it and didn't want to stay with me if we were going to be fighting like that. It was a temporary thing and we got through it that night, but she put it out there.

We had another, different fight today because she was upset while we were working out. I was focused on exercising and she was apparently really upset and crying on the treadmill (facing away from me). She showered and I made lunches then showered, and as soon as we talked to each other I knew something was wrong and asked if she was ok / what was wrong. She was mad it took me so long to ask what was wrong, that I'm oblivious to her feelings, etc.

She didn't want to tell me about her feelings or what she was upset about, and it instead we fought over how oblivious I am to her feelings, that I don't look at her, and I don't care about anything around me. I'll admit that I sometimes 'zone out', but I don't get on her when she does it. I'm still not sure if that's what she was crying about working out, or her response to me not asking her what she was crying about.

I kind of feel sometimes like she sets me up to fail, so she can be mad at that / me instead of dealing with what is really bothering her, especially when what's really bothering her is something that's entirely out of our hands. I don't enjoy being her punching bag, and I feel like no matter what the issue is, I'm always the bad guy.

So, anyway, here's the thing - I love her and I want things to improve. I'm even willing to try to change and do better to accommodate her more. I don't want to be a doormat, but I really will do a lot. I just don't know if it's something I can fix. Even if it's two or three years down the line it all comes rushing back right where we left off and I'm not trying hard enough.

When she brought up splitting up, I asked myself if we were going to make it and get past it. I wasn't sure the answer was yes. I know the reality of marriages ending in divorce, and I know we would have rough patches, but I never really had doubts we would get through them. I don't want to be marking time in a doomed marriage and holding on for five, ten, years where neither of us are happy and it screws up our kid - and to be honest, as stupid as it sounds, I'm not sure if I'm happy or not. I certainly don't think she is.

Here's the kicker though. When we were having the big fight and she talked about splitting up, I didn't feel like it was so much her that made me fight to stay together. I love her, but it was thinking about my daughter, and how upset she would be and how she wouldn't understand why she couldn't see both of us every night. Maybe it's because at that moment I don't know if my wife would or wouldn't be happier without me, while I absolutely know that my daughter wouldn't be happier, but for a few moments there it wasn't the marriage that I was fighting for, it was my kid.

Now, I don't think my marriage is doomed, and I truly believe this is a rough patch we can get through. But I also think it's a rough patch that - if we don't figure it out - could end us. I know the clock is ticking, but I'm not sure what to do. I know how pro-counseling everyone is in H&A, but I'm not sure how to bring it up with my wife. I really feel like she needs to talk to someone herself even more than I / we need to talk to someone, but I don't know how to bring it up in a way that won't just cause another fight and put more strain on our marriage.

I don't know if I just needed to talk to someone or if I need advice or what. I just want to know what it is I need to do to make my marriage happy again, and not just marking time as roommates until we finally split.

Halfmex · March 2014

Relationships are sometimes hard work if both parties let things slide for too long, and it sounds like that may be what has happened here. I would say that both of you need to do a better job of communicating to one another. Luckily that's one of the easiest things to fix in a relationship so long as both parties are willing to work at it. Counseling is pretty much never a bad thing, so I'll of course advocate it here as well, but as you said, how you bring it up is key. Here's how I'd do it:

'I'm going to say a few things to you and I'd ask that you please allow me to finish before you respond, at which point I'll be more than happy to listen to whatever you have to say. I just really need to get this off my chest. I love you but I'm concerned for the future of our relationship, and I think we could both stand to be better communicators here but I'm not sure that we have the tools to learn how to do so. So to that end, I'd very much like us to go to relationship counseling so that we can learn how to be a stronger couple, not just for ourselves but for our daughter's sake as well.'

That allows you to make the statement and still validate her feelings by allowing her to rebut at her leisure. All that being said, any counseling or effort you put into the relationship won't matter a bit if you don't both want the relationship to succeed, so be certain that that's what the both of you want before you do anything. Really give it some thought, because as you said, your daughter's life will be irrevocably changed if you decide to split.

I wish you both the best, good luck to you.

DoctorArch · March 2014

If fixing the marriage is a goal you both share, marriage counseling is a good step in the right direction. Sooner rather than later, because marriages on the down slope can reach a point where no counseling in the world will help.

And as a person who grew up in a home with parents who hated each other, kudos on you for realizing that it is better for you to be happy and apart than miserable and together "for the sake of the children."

Kias · March 2014

It really sounds like what you both need is a professional third party to help facilitate communication. I am not usually one to hold up counseling as a cure-all, but it really does seem like it would help in your situation. Especially so since one of the primary concerns expressed by your wife is your emotional awareness. This lets you propose counseling in a way that may be easier to accept in case she is resistant to it.

Other than that, you mention you do not have a lot of friends outside of your work and her, right? Is she in the same boat here? I get being a parent, spouse, and employee take up a huge amount of time and energy, but letting those things take over your personal identity completely can cause a lot of the problems you presented here. Having social circles or interests separate from one another is an important part of a balanced, healthy relationship.

It could be that your wife is in a similar emotional situation, unable to talk to anyone else but you, which makes her hyper sensitive to your lack of immediate attention to her personal moods and feelings. This situation is not good for her or fair for you since A ) you are not psychic and B ) while you can certainly be there to support your spouse, one person can't be everything. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but, at the very least, this could be a contributing factor to your lack of satisfaction in the relationship.

Anyways, I am one of the first people to tell someone in a bad marriage/relationship that time is precious and that it should not be wasted in unhappiness. From what you have written, and your general attitude, it sounds like this is a rough patch that is well worth your time to work through and I think you two will get through this so long as you address the communication break down and potential social isolation. I wish you both the best of luck.

altinneed · March 2014

@halfmex @doctorarch - I appreciate your advice. I think we both want the relationship to work, and I think I will take an approach similar to the approach you suggested.

I do think I'll need to wait until today's issue - for lack of a better term - blows over. Today did touch on the problems that we have and probably need help with, but bringing up counseling in the context of today's fight feels like a bit of deflection from the short-term issues we need to work through before we address the bigger problems. Plus, today was a bit more 'minor' and I don't want counseling and dealing with the fundamental issues to fall by the wayside because we moved past today's issue.

I'm not trying to downplay today's issue, but I think it was a symptom of bigger issues. In a day or two, when things are back to their 'normal', I'll talk to my wife about it.

@kias - I think you are hitting the nail on the head. I know my own situation, but I never really thought about how my wife is in the same state. If anything, it's got to be harder for her just because my personality is a lot easier going and I don't really hold onto much - she's pretty much the opposite.

She has a small group of her friends from high school, but they (and family) are pretty much our only social interaction outside work. I get along well with their husbands, but they aren't what I would consider 'my friends'. Unfortunately, between work, families, and proximity we see them a few times a year at best - usually on kids birthdays. We're pretty private to begin with, and quite honestly are 'keeping up appearances / don't air dirty laundry' type of people, so on the occasions when she talks to her friends it's probably just catching up - not getting into personal details.

So yeah, I didn't quite think of it that way. I appreciate you putting that into perspective.

We're in a bit of a strange place in that we're practically connected at the hip from the time we wake up until we go to sleep. We don't work at the same physical location, but we car pool and work with the same people in the same department. Even though we're physically together all the time - and I mean all the time, it's like we're constantly grinding away at life and when we do get a break we're worn out or trying to figure out how we'll do all the shit that needs to get done.

Aside from work, about the only time we aren't in the same room together is if one of us is showering / using the bathroom. I've encouraged her to do more things where we aren't in each other's shit all the time - and honestly, it's somewhat selfish because I want to get more than an hour or two of gaming a week instead of watching crappy TV 'together'. She says she doesn't have time to do those things because it takes away time we have together, but it hasn't gone over well when I've said that watching re-runs of NCIS / Bones / random procedural that I didn't care about the first time I saw it isn't exactly valuable 'time together' either.

But - I can live with it and get my gaming time on the occasional sick day or squeeze a half hour in here or there.

....putting this down, I'm starting to see a little more of the problem. I didn't intend this to be a bitch-fest and go into the minutia of my issues, but I think it goes back to getting help communicating in our relationship - or at least mediate some of this for us. We need to be able to say 'I'm going to game, you go do something, we'll meet up in an hour or two' and it not be an issue.

ceres · March 2014

"I love you AND." Not "I love you BUT."

Djeet · March 2014

Do you actually want to have friends or a larger social circle? It's ok if you don't, but if your desire for more friends or more time with friends is so you can vent or talk to someone about this kind of stuff then perhaps you should seek counselling for yourself. It also might provide a lead in to marriage counselling if you and your therapist see it so.

Regarding the kid my wife and I had a similar situation where we disagreed on some parenting matters (same thing where she was the parent who said "no" and I was the parent who gave cake and horseplayed). You can have lots of rules or not, but you both have to parent in a manner consistent with one another. You should probably talk about the rules and methods of parenting so you talk to her about being more easygoing and maybe you can work on backing her up more on things she thinks are particularly important. I don't know what the issue might've been for you but for us a big one was bedtime. She wanted them tucked in too early in my opinion since it meant that many times I would not get to see them in the evening on weekdays due to my work hours. They still go to bed too early in my opinion (though I have to admit they are generally better behaved when better rested), but they can stay up with me on non-school nights, and if I get home at or around bedtime I still get 15-20 minutes with them to talk, watch tv, or read to them.

TV? I cannot stand to sit through Gossip Girl or Pretty Little Liars, and my wife cannot stand to watch Top Gear or Wheeler Dealers, so we don't force one another to. We don't have to both be watching (one of us can be reading or Internetting or working). But it does mean those shows that we both enjoy we DVR or wait for each other to watch so we can watch them together.

Regarding chores and messiness, here's some place for self-change. I'm more a late owl, but also more a morning person. My wife is NOT a morning person. It makes her happy if I do something like basic pickup (not vacuuming the house, just picking up some toys or putting the cushions aright on the couch) or emptying the dishwasher, or emptying the sink. And not because I did it, but because this is now something that she doesn't have to deal with. Put your socks away (you cannot win this one). Life is easier when should you have a disagreement that she then cannot throw that in your face and derail the conversation.

I guess when I read your post it sounded very familiar and we worked through it, but it took both of us to realize we were in a pattern of behavior and when we started a disagreement (or preferably before, so we can avoid getting into a disagreement entirely) at least one of us has to step back and figure out how to avoid the argument or break out of the argument. It got to the point where it seemed like every fight eventually became about every other fight we ever had and it was exhausting.

Thundyrkatz · March 2014

This situation when you were working out really jumped out at me. The crying while facing away from you and getting mad that you have not come over to ask whats wrong is terrible and manipulative and unhealthy. If she was upset about something and wanted your attention on the matter, she should have brought it to you attention. She can not fault you for not following through on a scenario that she had going on in her head.

Maybe that was an isolated incident and has never happened before, but if that is a typical thing then that's not OK. She should be upfront and honest with you with what she wants, and you need to make sure that you are receptive and not condescending to her needs. It goes both ways too.

This extends to her comment that you come off as superior to her. She needs to point that out when it happens (preferably when you two are alone next). This is not an accusation from her that you should be offended by. This is her communicating to you that she is unhappy with something you have done, and you apologizing for doing it and then both of you move on with your lives. Again, it works both ways on this.

schuss · March 2014

I just want to echo what others said around a counselor. I think at this point you're both in your own headspaces about problems and solutions, and you're probably not going to come to a good conclusion unless both of you change or one of you gives.

altinneed · March 2014

@djeet Having a small (or virtually non-existent) social circle isn't really something that bothers me. I generally don't feel much of a need for more social interaction than I currently get, and my ideal time that I'm not with my wife / family would mostly be playing games by myself. MAYBE going for a run alone because it makes me feel better about myself, but mostly playing games.

Generally - when it comes to things like chore or leaving a mess, I'll occasionally do things that annoy her, but mostly try pretty hard not to (i.e. the socks on the floor / crumbs on the counter). It's really just minor stuff that almost never is more than a bit of an aggravation - very occasionally it'll be a bit of bickering if she just cleaned up and I don't appreciate it, but I honestly think that's pretty damn normal and tangental to the overall problems we're having. I'm usually pretty good about chore / household stuff, and actively try to make sure she knows that I appreciate the stuff she does too.

With our daughter there is a few things (I'll wind her up close to bedtime), but the big thing is letting her climb all over me. I'm fine with it and it doesn't bother me, but my wife is pretty sensitive and she always seems to get elbowed or headbutted and hurt. But that's really not where we have big issues either - again, an occasional spat, but nothing unusual or unhealthy.

One thing that definitely struck a chord with me was the whole 'step back' part of the argument. When we've had our bad fights, it usually escalates because neither of us are people who will back down once things get heated. There's a bit more to it - never anything physical, but a few shouting matches that get pretty mean. I can usually back down / keep from escalating when a spat starts, but I have trouble doing it every time when something rubs me really wrong. And it's that occasion when the fight is bad - like the one we had a month ago, and it doesn't matter if it's been six months or a year since our last big fight because it dredges up all the old stuff again.

This morning wasn't that kind of fight even. More her being hurt / pissed, and me being pissed that she put it on me when I really didn't and shouldn't have been expected to know. A bit of a spat, something we'll talk over, but it didn't get heated. It just felt this morning like our marriage is starting to crumble a little bit.

@Thundyrkatz‌ Yeah, I feel the same way and that's what pissed me off. I didn't know - and maybe I WAS a bit oblivious, but our system is kinda 'sharing space, but working out independently' because that's what we've established works best for both of us. The next time we interacted, I recognized and asked what was wrong...and she snapped at me about not asking earlier but still didn't want to talk about it. Which is one of my pet peeves - maybe it's not fair, but I feel like if you don't want to talk about / deal with it, let it go.

Then on the drive into work we talked and it was a bit harsh. But yeah, I don't think what she did was fair or right either - but it's not a typical thing. I don't feel like she was playing a game or manipulating me.

I definitely think we do need some work and better communication - and I don't think we're going to get there without a third party. Still, we're going to talk and keep trying to communicate with each other better. I appreciate everyone taking the time to listen and give their advice, and I think I just needed to get some of this off my chest.

Once we've talked this out, I'm going to talk to her about seeing a counselor - I think that even if she doesn't want to go / go as a couple, it would be good for me to go and talk through some of my issues and thoughts. I know that talking to a psychologist really helped my dad deal with a lot of his issues when I was a kid, and I don't think it would hurt for me to do the same.

As a couple, even if we can get through this on our own, seeing a counselor can't really make things worse...it's getting past that whole 'you see a counselor to save a failing marriage - not to fix problems in an otherwise somewhat healthy marriage' mentality. I'm very pro-counseling and even I have a hard time getting past that...that, and the whole 'we patched it up today, so we're good for now' part that makes it hard to follow through until things - I'd assume - get really bad.

CelestialBadger · March 2014

Thundyrkatz wrote: »

This situation when you were working out really jumped out at me. The crying while facing away from you and getting mad that you have not come over to ask whats wrong is terrible and manipulative and unhealthy. If she was upset about something and wanted your attention on the matter, she should have brought it to you attention. She can not fault you for not following through on a scenario that she had going on in her head.

Not necessarily. Women tend to think of crying in a different way than men. Men often cry because there is something specific they are bothered by - their dog died, or they fear they might be fired. Women sometimes cry just for general sadness. It's not necessarily manipulative, and men thinking about it that way can lead to misunderstandings. And if you are very sad you don't want to say "Look at me, I am sad!" because you are too sad, and women are trained not to bring attention to themselves. Women are tuned into this stuff and will often notice red eyes or little sniffles, but men do not, and often women misinterpret this as turning a blind eye. This is the kind of thing that by being misinterpreted on both sides can lead to major marriage problems, and counsellors can really help interpret.

altinneed · March 2014

The forms posted long before I was ready, so hang on until I can actually get my post up.

altinneed · March 2014

So, an update. We talked last night quite a bit, and I appreciate the chance to talk through this a little bit on here. It helped me to collect my thoughts / feelings.

@CelestialBadger‌ - You sorta hit the nail on the head there. My wife was upset about yesterday morning, but it was basically the straw that broke the camel's back sort of thing, not the specifics of yesterday morning that mattered. I have trouble with this one, where she gets upset about a more general thing and I try to deal with the specifics of the incident in front of me. It leads to quite a bit of talking past each other, which is far from the first time this happened. It's easy to say it's the basic 'man's mind vs. woman's mind' sort of thing, but that's kind of a cop-out.

She feels that I don't pay attention to her or even look at her, and don't recognize when she's feeling upset or something is wrong. She also feels like when I do recognize something is wrong, I sit there like a deer in the headlights instead of being responsive and hugging / consoling her. Which, while I don't think it happens as much as she feels like it does isn't an especially unfair criticism. I don't react as well to non-verbal and implicit cues even though she doesn't think that there is a problem with things that are explicit or talking.

What really upset her - before yesterday morning - is that on Tuesday night she started telling me about something she was really, really excited about at work (publicity for a major project her lab did) and I was wrapped up in my phone and she didn't feel like I cared. It makes her feel like she can't rely on me to be there when she's sad or even when she's happy.

She also feels very overwhelmed because the past month has been non-stop between work, the house, birthdays, family, etc. We've been constantly busy and a lot of stuff - basic things like clean bathrooms - have been slipping. The issue is not at all what I'm contributing / not contributing, but more that we're not getting a break there and that she's not getting an emotional break / support that she needs.

So, basically it comes down to me being complacent and her not feeling like I care about her / am interested in what she's doing / how she feels. I do care and listen, but she needs to get more response and feedback showing that I do care. Which is goodish, because I know how and can do that. I still feel like it's a bit of a shaky time, but I'm confident we'll get through this and be stronger than ever. Hell, I think that if I just keep my nose out of meaningless crap on my phone that's 90% of the big problem right there.

There are some smaller or at least less pressing issues that we're still going to have to deal with, but I really think that we'll get past this rocky phase and be feeling happy again soon. I honestly think a big part comes from shitty weather / cabin fever too, although I'm not going to dismiss any of it because I think that. Even if that is a big part of how she feels right now, it's not like it invalidates that she feels that way.

CelestialBadger · March 2014

I do think you have "cabin fever" in many ways, not just because of the weather. Because you have few friends each, you depend on each other for everything. You need to both get out more and make more friends. Especially couples you can hang out with together so she doesn't feel you are vanishing to spend all your time with "the boys."

DivideByZero · March 2014

altinneed wrote: »

I do think I'll need to wait until today's issue - for lack of a better term - blows over. Today did touch on the problems that we have and probably need help with, but bringing up counseling in the context of today's fight feels like a bit of deflection from the short-term issues we need to work through before we address the bigger problems. Plus, today was a bit more 'minor' and I don't want counseling and dealing with the fundamental issues to fall by the wayside because we moved past today's issue.

I'm not trying to downplay today's issue, but I think it was a symptom of bigger issues. In a day or two, when things are back to their 'normal', I'll talk to my wife about it.

The problem with this line of thinking is that putting off counseling for "the big things" until all "the little things" are dealt with means that you'll probably never start counseling. Counseling isn't just for the big things, it's also for the small things that, as you admit, are a symptom of the larger issues.

I went through a similar state before I started personal therapy where I just wanted to take care of a few things myself before I'd be "ready" to start and it just kept getting put off later and later until things were just unbearable. In the end I felt foolish because I should have started long before.

Open up a dialogue about counseling; if she agrees to go together, then do it. If she wants to start separately at first, do that. If she refuses to go, go by yourself. There's no reason not to start immediately. You're not deflecting; you're just admitting that your relationship isn't perfect and you need some help from someone objective and detached to sort things out.

Greggy88 · June 2014

There's a book called 'Babyproof your marriage' that I think you'd like.

Penny Arcade

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