As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

Legitimate privilige?

SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
In trying to put together a student association policy on recognizing privilige, one of the examples that was submitted was 'access to porn that you find arousing'. I don't think this is a legitimate kind of privilige, but wanted to ask whether anyone else had come accross this claim. Thanks!

Posts

  • Options
    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Waaaaaaaaaait, wait, wait, wait.

    What do you mean by a policy on recognizing privilege?

  • Options
    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Given the diversity, complexity, and legality of what pornographic materials individuals may find to be arousing, it could be argued that 'access to porn that you find arousing' is a legitimate kind of privilege.

    However, given it seems that you've possibly presented this question to a group of college aged students. It was probably not meant to be presented as a legitimate kind of privilege so much as someone goofing at your expense. I'm assuming the survey submissions were anonymous?

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • Options
    SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
    Yes. The context seemed to imply that this was related to gender prefernce or sexuality, and that marginalized groups might have difficulty in this respect. I think this is not legitimate though, given that, definitionally, porn is harmful to women. There seems to be an implict claim that porn is something that there is a right to.

  • Options
    SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
    Enc, the policy is about student associations, just formally recognizing the concept of differential privilige and seeking to remove structures that prevent people without privilige from being heard and participating.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Yes. The context seemed to imply that this was related to gender prefernce or sexuality, and that marginalized groups might have difficulty in this respect. I think this is not legitimate though, given that, definitionally, porn is harmful to women. There seems to be an implict claim that porn is something that there is a right to.

    "Porn is by definition harmful to women"? I know the porn industry (in the US at least?) is supposed to have a lot of problems re: sexism/misogyny/abuse/etc. But that's different than what you're saying here.

    I'm just curious if you have any articles or information on that. I've never thought porn conceptually should be stigmatized as much as it is (as in, porn isn't not a bad thing in and of itself), so my advice was possibly going to be very different before I came upon this comment :).

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Couple of things:
    • Re- this statement you are crafting, you may want to look around for diversity and inclusion statements used at various solidly performing public universities on these topics to craft your language.
    • I really don't like ending up in a position where I am defending porn, but I'd be careful about making universal assumptions on porn's effect on women/men etc. There are considerable schools of thought in feminism (3rd wave onwards) that would disagree with that assessment.
    • The submitter is 99% just messing with you and not taking the situation seriously.
    • Acknowledging privilege as a real and problematic thing is a great thing to do, preaching it is a great way to get your audience to check out (even though those that will are the ones who likely don't understand their privilege). This sort of thing has a fine line to walk and looking at examples will help.

  • Options
    SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Well, we need to stop thinking of porn as harmless entertainment. It's a form of media that reinforces and celebrates female degredation and racism. If this were not the case, I think I'd be more open to the argument.

    SophieSophie on
  • Options
    SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
    Thanks Enc - any thoughts on who might be leaders here to look to?

  • Options
    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Yes. The context seemed to imply that this was related to gender prefernce or sexuality, and that marginalized groups might have difficulty in this respect. I think this is not legitimate though, given that, definitionally, porn is harmful to women. There seems to be an implict claim that porn is something that there is a right to.

    Yeah, I'm not really wanting to get deep into this particular minefield... but, because there are certain types of pornographic content that is explicitly illegal and therefore not accessible, especially because the creation thereof is harmful to its participants (not just women), access to particular types of pornography is not a right.

    But I find it hard to believe that any person with such proclivities would ever try to argue such a thing.

    This person was just messing with you, and really trying to include such a line of commentary would interfere with more meaningful statements that could be made regarding privilege. I would just disregard it.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • Options
    SophieSophieSophieSophie Registered User regular
    Thanks - that was my sense, but I was worried that discarding claims of privilige is itself an act of privilige, and got myself a bit tangled up in how to decide whivch claims to take seriously and how to discard this.

  • Options
    TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Porn is not necessarily "definitionally" harmful to women. This is a large debate in feminism (see here for some details). Some feminists argue that there are ways of making porn that does not subordinate or otherwise harm women. This is also the sort of porn that does not get made these days, which is one reason someone might be concerned about the privilege you are asking about: people outside the mainstream understanding of sexuality, who are not aroused by pornography that subordinates women but who would be aroused by other sorts of non-harmful pornography, certainly don't have access to this sort of pornography. And you might think that this is one of the many symptoms of the patriarchy. This is not an entirely unreasonable view and it's one that many feminists have argued for, so I wouldn't be as dismissive about it as you are here. On the other hand, it's not the view that all feminists hold. Lots of feminists do define pornography the way you do, such that it's necessarily subordinating, and thus access to porn of any kind isn't really something that people should have.

  • Options
    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2017
    I cant believe this is a statement I'm about to write, but: As a women who accesses a pretty wide variety of porn, much of what I consume is written or drawn by other women and purposefully diverse in its representation of gender and sexuality, there's media out there that is not harmful to women but also erotic in nature. Porn gives many people who dont have access to regular sex, or the kind of sex they want, an outlet of expression.

    If you need examples of this, I suggest looking to audio, literature, and comic forms of porn, and consider that fan fiction is often written by women and heavily erotic. You can pull apart each individual piece of media for its downsides, but saying that someones desire for representation in porn is something to be dismissed as illegitimate is not great.

    Iruka on
  • Options
    Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    Yes. The context seemed to imply that this was related to gender prefernce or sexuality, and that marginalized groups might have difficulty in this respect. I think this is not legitimate though, given that, definitionally, porn is harmful to women. There seems to be an implict claim that porn is something that there is a right to.

    Not really, and that is central to the whole point of the concept of privilege, as I understand it. A privilege is a benefit that a person can enjoy by virtue of being part of a particular group (or by not being part of a marginalized group). Many of the forms of privilege described in the famous invisible knapsack article have nothing to do with rights.

  • Options
    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Also, tangent:
    It's a little thing, I admit, but I think that if you're going to be talking about privilege, you should spell it correctly.
    Two Is, two Es. No third I.

    As to the original topic/question - as a cishet male, I can definitely see and agree that accessing material that I find arousing has been almost effortless since the advent of the internet, to the point that one might be unaware that not all are so fortunate. It's not so much that anyone has a right to it, as that it's harder to find some kinds than others, and those whose tastes align with the majority of what is provided may not be aware of that, and thus their privilege in that regard.

    (Of course, it's an old joke that in the Before Times, before they literally piped it into your house, even we had to go looking for the stuff... and usually found it in places like catalogs, surreptitiously-acquired nudie mags, and the once-infamous National Geographic. Though some of that was due to being minors, and legally restricted/prohibited from access.)

    Commander Zoom on
  • Options
    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Sorry, I would add to my posts that drawn, computer generated, or written pornography isn't illegal as far as I know, even if the subject matter that it depicts is. That wasn't the type of media that I had in mind as far as this conversation goes.I would also agree that it does exist as a legit outlet for those expressions.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Sorry, I would add to my posts that drawn, computer generated, or written pornography isn't illegal as far as I know, even if the subject matter that it depicts is. That wasn't the type of media that I had in mind as far as this conversation goes.I would also agree that it does exist as a legit outlet for those expressions.

    I don't think the perspective needs to be illegal things.

    I don't really know for sure, but if the OP's question was not a joke, I would have assumed it wasn't so much illegal that was a problem, but "not heteronormative, relatively mainstream" stuff.

    I agree with most that it was probably a joke, though.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Yeah, it had to be a joke or an attempt to derail whatever dialogue the OP wanted to create.

    I also believe that literally the only types of porn that one wouldn't be able to have easy access esp. these days is of the illegal varieties... but uh, yeah. Kind of neither here nor there.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • Options
    ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Enc wrote: »
    Couple of things:
    • The submitter is 99% just messing with you and not taking the situation seriously.

    Maybe, but this is actually totally a thing. My fiancée decided (on her own) early on when we were dating to try and find porn that had people shaped like me. After all, lived experience is hot, it'd be neat to have porn that shows sex similarly to what you have.

    It turns out porn involving trans women is horrible. So she (and I) are basically just locked out of having easy access to porn that really approximates how we have sex.

  • Options
    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    @Shivahn is correct, and in a liberal art college situation, I could totally see someone from this position bringing it up legitimately. Writing it off before you even venture to understand the request seems like a really odd move, considering the circumstances. Even if you interpret the submission to be a joke, I'd encourage you to research and evaluate it before dismissing it.

  • Options
    spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    @SophieSophie I think you might find more luck with some of these in the Debate & Discourse section than here in H/A where we are only allowed to offer help and advice, but doing so requires we accept some base assumptions that are possibly not as universally accepted or obvious as you believe them to be.

    In short, it seems you're asking us not to help you, but to agree with you, or argue the point.

    So, to answer your question: no, I have not come across that claim before.

  • Options
    Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Privilege is about society catering to you, so society generating a disproportionate amount of erotica (up to and including porn) that is tailored to your tastes would certainly be a kind of privilege. If you're a straight man with mainstream sexual tastes, it's infinitely easier to find what you like than it is for just about anyone else.

  • Options
    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I agree with Shivahn and others that this is a legitimate form of privilege. The submitter is not necessarily trolling.

    However, whether it is appropriate to bring up in your policy is a judgment call. By college, undergrads should be able to maturely discuss adult sexuality. But the prurience of it might be distracting.

    I would rephrase it to make it a little more mundane. For example:

    "Easy access to entertainment that represents your sexual orientation or gender identity."

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Options
    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2017
    This isn't D&D. If you want to have a discussion about privilege and the gatekeeping (or not) thereof, you need to do it there.

    Also we aren't going to do your homework for you.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
This discussion has been closed.