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[DnD 4E Discussion] ITT we all get behind gnomes.

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    soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'd allow a player to use their teleport power to get out of a fall - if they're falling far enough that they're still falling when their turn comes around, odds are your options are to either let them teleport or pull out a pile of d10s, rolling fall damage and asking them to build a new character.

    Though I'd also make sure that the players don't abuse that by jumping off a 2000ft cliff and then fey-stepping just before they hit the ground. Once you hit terminal velocity, you're blind.

    Actually... scratch that - I'd only allow it to reduce falling damage by the distance teleported. If I've put in a 100ft drop and the player falls off it, odds are they've done something stupid and they probably deserve whatever damage is coming their way.

    soxbox on
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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    How far can you fall during a turn?
    Does every character have a "hidden" movement mode (falling)?

    Edit: Given how much distance you would need to fall for your turn to expire, I have to wonder if there are even any printed teleportation powers that have anywhere near the necessary range to help you.

    Hachface on
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    DortmunderDortmunder Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Dungeon 175 has some interesting text on this falling scenario:
    Here’s one last option for DMs with a real flair
    for the dramatic. The standard rule for falling is that
    a character hits bottom immediately.
    That’s fine for
    typical falls, but this plunge is an eighth of a mile! A
    D&D combat round is 6 seconds long, and a body
    falls just 576 feet in 6 seconds (but it takes less than
    half a second to travel those last 74 feet . . .). That
    means a falling character won’t technically hit the
    ground until the same initiative point for Tiamat
    comes around again on the following turn. The character
    has one full turn to try to save himself by, say,
    activating Bahamut’s golden canary to transform into a
    gold dragon beneath him or, if the dragon is already
    summoned, to command it to swoop down and catch
    him. Alternatively, another hero who can fly could
    dive off the platform and overtake the falling character
    in grand cinematic style, catching him and
    arresting his plunge just feet above the floor. Neither
    of these things is especially realistic or even truly
    within the rules, but they’re creative solutions that
    ought to be rewarded and they’re tremendously dramatic.
    No one will ever forget this battle if it involves
    such a heroic rescue, and that’s the real goal!

    Dortmunder on
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    streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yea--it seems highly illogical to assume that Fey Step eliminates your velocity. If the PC has a move action available immediately after being shoved off the cliff (Avenger with Escape) then sure, that works. But otherwise, no way can you fall 100 feet and then suddenly teleport and be like "Hey not injured". For flavor/PC survival, I'd let any PC with teleport negate that much of the fall, I think, if they fell over 100 feet. Why not?

    streever on
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    DortmunderDortmunder Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Just to follow up - while the "standard rule" may say you hit ground immediately, I think I would let a PC activate a Teleport if it is still their turn and they have the move action available, or if they have an IR that specifically mentions this scenario.

    Dortmunder on
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    SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Who exactly is this SUPERSAGA guy mentioned in the OP?

    SUPERSUGA on
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    MaticoreMaticore A Will To Power Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    SUPERSUGA wrote: »
    Who exactly is this SUPERSAGA guy mentioned in the OP?

    I don't know. It makes me wonder who wrote the Original Player's Handbook race and class descriptions. It was probably some Maticore jerk.

    Maticore on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm having trouble keeping my mind on straight.
    Chick.com wrote:
    Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the commandment of I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it.

    On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in many cases, contain authentic magical rituals. I can tell you this from my own experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was also involved in hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and trained more than 175 people in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game writers actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For the most part, they are.

    Edit: Haha oh dear god!
    Chick.com wrote:
    Murdered Four People

    Daniel sat in a Kansas jail cell after a crime spree that left four dead and four others wounded. When a reporter visited his cell and asked about his motives for the killings, he replied:

    "Have you ever heard of Dungeons and Dragons? That had a lot to do with it." He added, "It's not just a board game, it's a lot deeper than a board game."2

    The youth also said he had five friends who were "locked up for the same thing right now (because of the game)."

    A retired police officer who lectures police groups on the occult said D & D is:

    "...supposed to be a board game, but kids play it for life and death on the street."

    Where is this happening and where can I get in on it?

    Edit the second:
    How is this magic seen in the game? Well, in a guide written by the original author of the game, Gary Gygax, we read:

    Magic users draw upon arcane powers in order to exercise their profession … He or she must memorize and prepare for the use of each spell, and its casting makes it necessary to reabsorb the incantation by consulting the proper book of spells … those of magic-users must be spoken or read aloud.10

    This is excellent advice for budding necromancers.

    O.o

    Rius on
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    Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Oh dear, Chick tracts? Are we really back to that?

    Mr_Rose on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I imagine this sort of thing is pretty old news for some folk but damn if I'm not experiencing it for the first time and laughing my ass off.

    Rius on
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    ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah man, Chick's been at it since the 70s. He's the Jack Thompson of DnD, all getting up in DnD'ers business. He even had some input on that terrible Tom Hanks DnD movie twenty years ago, IIRC.

    And if you haven't heard of that monstrosity...

    ravensmuse on
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    DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ravensmuse wrote: »
    Yeah man, Chick's been at it since the 70s. He's the Jack Thompson of DnD, all getting up in DnD'ers business. He even had some input on that terrible Tom Hanks DnD movie twenty years ago, IIRC.

    And if you haven't heard of that monstrosity...

    Wait ... what?

    Denada on
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    TiamatZTiamatZ Ghost puns The Banette of my existenceRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Denada wrote: »
    ravensmuse wrote: »
    Yeah man, Chick's been at it since the 70s. He's the Jack Thompson of DnD, all getting up in DnD'ers business. He even had some input on that terrible Tom Hanks DnD movie twenty years ago, IIRC.

    And if you haven't heard of that monstrosity...

    Wait ... what?
    This what your looking for?
    Rona Jaffe published Mazes and Monsters in 1981, a thinly disguised fictionalization of the press exaggerations of the Egbert case. In an era when very few people understood role-playing games it seemed plausible to the public that a player might experience a psychotic episode and lose touch with reality during role-playing. The book saw adaptation into a made-for-television movie in 1982 starring Tom Hanks, and the publicity surrounding both the novel and film version served to heighten the public's unease regarding role-playing games.

    TiamatZ on
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    REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Wow. I feel like I want to see this, but more, I feel like I never want to see this.

    REG Rysk on
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    Silas BrownSilas Brown That's hobo style. Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So I'm a bit lost on what DnDINsider is meant to represent in terms of playable races. I'm being told that, now that Minotaur are in the PHB3, Minotaur are now a playable race. What does that make the Insider entry, then?

    Silas Brown on
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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So I'm a bit lost on what DnDINsider is meant to represent in terms of playable races. I'm being told that, now that Minotaur are in the PHB3, Minotaur are now a playable race. What does that make the Insider entry, then?

    Stuff shows up in DDI before it gets published in a book sometimes. Think nothing of it.

    Hachface on
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    streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Moriarty: Probably not updated :)

    I think DDI follows the CB update schedule, once a month. So, I'd expect the Minotaur to show up almost 30 days after the book is available for sale as a final product.

    Edit: Beat, and contradicted. I haven't looked at the DDI entry, actually yet. I just assumed you were wondering why it wasn't a playable race in DDI.

    streever on
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    KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So, I'm playing a Warlord MCed into Warlock, and my initial idea for my Paragon Path would be Paragon Multiclassing, but it seems that my GM is trying to dissuade me. He's pointing out that I'll miss out on three potentially awesome Class Features that all Paragon Paths get, but PMCing misses out on.

    There's no ruling anywhere that if you Paragon Multiclass, you gain Class Features from your multiclass, is there? I'm trying to make a decision between taking 3 Warlock powers as I level through Paragon Tier, or taking the Evermeet Warlock PP, mainly because all the teleportation stuff is awesome and really fits the character concept. (Most of the Warlock powers I've taken via MCing so far have been teleportation related.)

    Kay on
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    RiusRius Globex CEO Nobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Paragon Multiclassing sucks because you don't get a Paragon Path's level 11 and/or 12 and 16th level features. That's what your DM was talking about, not Class Features. And yeah, unless you absolutely positively need to PMC for something, you'll probably be much happier taking an actual Paragon Path.

    Rius on
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    KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I was talking about the Paragon Path features - so PMC is decidedly substandard, right.

    See, if I went PMC, I'd end up with:

    Close Burst 1 Immobilise with subsequent teleport. (Encounter)
    3 Square Teleport with Defense bonuses. (Encounter)
    1 square Teleport. (At Will)

    Coupled with Eladrin Armor (bonus teleport range) and my Cloak of Translocation (+2 AC/Reflex after teleportation), that'd all be pretty neat and flavorful as the guy that teleports constantly through melee with his reach weapon and tactical awareness bonuses.

    On the other hand, if I take Evermeet Warlock PP, I miss out on the encounter 3 square teleport, and instead gain nifty PP features, like appearing to be invisible to any enemy I am adjacent to when I initiate a teleport, and suchlike. I guess I'll have to miss out on the longer range teleport, and the exact Warlock powers I was wanting, and go with the set PP powers and sliiightly less flexibility while gaining the ability to wink in and out of existence in the middle of combat and really screwing with the enemies.

    Plus, invisible Leaders mean there's always a source of buff/heal for the party, as we've found that if I'm the one that goes down, the fight becomes that much HARDER.

    Kay on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    The only time Paragon Multiclassing seems like a good idea to me is when you're trying to leverage a class feature of one class (say, Combat Challenge) against a group of powers from another class that make it very good (say, anything with lots of bursts and blasts).

    If you're just looking for a blending of two classes, you're probably better off just using the powerswaps and taking the Paragon Path that makes sense.

    OptimusZed on
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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Basically, they need to make Paragon Multiclassing (and the hybrid version too) it's own PP with a selection of modified Class Features that you can take instead of Path Features at the appropriate levels.

    Mr_Rose on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    How far can you fall during a turn?
    Does every character have a "hidden" movement mode (falling)?

    Edit: Given how much distance you would need to fall for your turn to expire, I have to wonder if there are even any printed teleportation powers that have anywhere near the necessary range to help you.

    Wellllllll, since every turn is supposed to approximate 6 seconds and ignoring air resistance, then the distance you'd have to fall for your turn to expire is (1/2)(9.8 m/s^2)(6s)^2 = 176.4 m or 578.74 feet or 115.74 squares, which would result in 58d10 (average 319) damage.

    Of course, this is assuming you're near the surface of a planet with the same gravitational constant as (the surface of) Earth.

    hippofant on
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    Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    More or less the only good thing about Paragon Multiclassing is that you get to swap one at-will with one of the class you're MC'ing into. Other than that, you are always 100% of the time better off taking the Multiclass feat and going into one of the Paragon Paths of that class.

    In Zed's example, a Fighter who multi's Invoker may be tempted to PMC in order to get his hands on Grasping Shards or Hand of Radiance At-Will, but he's probably better off with an Invoker Paragon Path (like, say, Angelic Aspect, which is really, really, really good for Fighters with a high Wisdom).

    Jack Hobbes on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    More or less the only good thing about Paragon Multiclassing is that you get to swap one at-will with one of the class you're MC'ing into. Other than that, you are always 100% of the time better off taking the Multiclass feat and going into one of the Paragon Paths of that class.

    In Zed's example, a Fighter who multi's Invoker may be tempted to PMC in order to get his hands on Grasping Shards or Hand of Radiance At-Will, but he's probably better off with an Invoker Paragon Path (like, say, Angelic Aspect, which is really, really, really good for Fighters with a high Wisdom).
    Visions of Blood is actually much more useful for a Fighter. 3x3 multimark that doesn't provoke OAs.

    OptimusZed on
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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    If teleporting maintains velocity, why not just teleport facing up so that your momentum has to work against your new down. if you get what i'm saying.

    PantheraOnca on
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    PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Yeah ZestRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    streever wrote: »
    Yea--it seems highly illogical to assume that Fey Step eliminates your velocity. If the PC has a move action available immediately after being shoved off the cliff (Avenger with Escape) then sure, that works. But otherwise, no way can you fall 100 feet and then suddenly teleport and be like "Hey not injured". For flavor/PC survival, I'd let any PC with teleport negate that much of the fall, I think, if they fell over 100 feet. Why not?

    Well, here's the thing I don't think any of you are factoring into your falling factors: why does the momentum *after* the teleport have to take you straight down? I think it's impossible to factor in the physics of something that doesn't exist, so why can't we say you teleport and transfer the momentum of the fall into a straight perpendicular line with the horizontal surface on which you want to land? You'd still take SOME fall damage, but it would certainly be a lot less than it would normally. Not to mention, it would make any fall greater than n feet have the same impact damage, since once you hit terminal velocity, your deceleration rate going straight up would be the same in every scenario.

    Edit: Totally Sarnath'd.

    Pinfeldorf on
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    streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    If teleporting maintains velocity, why not just teleport facing up so that your momentum has to work against your new down. if you get what i'm saying.

    but that doesn't even make sense

    I mean, right, teleporting doesn't exist--but the premise I always use is, if you want something that doesn't exist to contradict physical laws, provide a reasoning for it that makes sense logically.

    By default, with this premise, one assumes that teleporting leaves you with the same velocity, because there is nothing to suggest that it does not.

    Why would you go the other way with your velocity? I guess if the teleport power allowed you to spin upside down, that would be a reasonable proposition, but I doubt it: teleport is instantaneous. You are not actually moving 3 squares if you "teleport(3)", you are simply disappearing and then reappearing.

    There is nothing that suggests you go somewhere, freeze your velocity, get to turn upside down, and then come back, momentum and all.

    Edit:
    Like with anything, you have to have some common baseline. In this case, the assumptions are:
    -Teleportation is instantaneous
    - Teleportation defers momentum

    If you have different assumptions, then of course, teleport can do whatever you want. I think you have to make a reasonable logical case for it though, or it becomes extraordinarily silly, because I could say "I teleport, and now I'm a dragon." "WHAT? that's not in the power description." "Neither is that you can turn upside down. It seems as likely, because we are discussing a not-real-world thing, that I could turn into a dragon."

    streever on
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    Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, momentum doesn't give a flying fuck about orientation, or every orbital manoeuvre ever never happened and all of space is a hoax. As are shopping carts.

    Mr_Rose on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    You guys are making me really want to play a character that teleports via travel through some other plane that has an absurd velocity relative to the prime material. Going in is me being sucked through the portal due to some form of aether drag, travel is along the direction of movement relative to the prime plane and coming back involves me being thrown out at high speed having gained obscene amounts of momentum in the meantime.

    OptimusZed on
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    tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    On the other hand, it might be potentially valuable, if you can make multiple short teleport steps or one very large one, to teleport yourself downward. In doing so, you step around the gravitational acceleration you would have gained by falling those however many feet, negating potential energy and thus damage from when you hit the ground.

    tzeentchling on
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    PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    ok, what im assuming is that your state when you teleport is maintained. thus, if you have lets say for round numberedness 1000lbs of force pushing at your back while facing down, if you teleport facing up you now have that 1000lbs of force sending you up, but it is being worked against by gravity.

    have any of you played portal? what im talking about is jumping in one portal and comming out one that is on the ground. the momentum is maintained, but the direction of gravity relative to you changes.

    PantheraOnca on
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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    streever wrote: »
    Yea--it seems highly illogical to assume that Fey Step eliminates your velocity. If the PC has a move action available immediately after being shoved off the cliff (Avenger with Escape) then sure, that works. But otherwise, no way can you fall 100 feet and then suddenly teleport and be like "Hey not injured". For flavor/PC survival, I'd let any PC with teleport negate that much of the fall, I think, if they fell over 100 feet. Why not?

    Well, here's the thing I don't think any of you are factoring into your falling factors: why does the momentum *after* the teleport have to take you straight down? I think it's impossible to factor in the physics of something that doesn't exist, so why can't we say you teleport and transfer the momentum of the fall into a straight perpendicular line with the horizontal surface on which you want to land? You'd still take SOME fall damage, but it would certainly be a lot less than it would normally. Not to mention, it would make any fall greater than n feet have the same impact damage, since once you hit terminal velocity, your deceleration rate going straight up would be the same in every scenario.

    Edit: Totally Sarnath'd.

    I actually see this as portal jumping, pretty much. So you'd come out of a teleport going near-terminal-velocity horizontally and you'd start accelerating down again. I'd probably let someone do that if they were falling long enough, but I'd require either a Dex or Int check or some physical maths from the player for the character to have done it at the right time.

    Then again, this is the same group that calculated the weight of a Byakhee in CoCd20 from the size and depth of the crater it left in the ground, gaining us somewhere in the range of 25 points of sanity loss.

    Delmain on
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    WassermeloneWassermelone Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Streever, Mr. Rose, have you never played Portal?

    Wassermelone on
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    BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I keep thinking if you open a "exit point" directly adjacent to the "entry point", the front part's of each being 180 degrees vertical of each other. So you travel through what equates to a U. From there you find the distance you would travel back up, and your fall distance from there.

    Brody on
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    KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Basically, they need to make Paragon Multiclassing (and the hybrid version too) it's own PP with a selection of modified Class Features that you can take instead of Path Features at the appropriate levels.

    Yeah, that's what I was saying, too.

    Say, at level 11, it gives you the choice of one of the MC features, such as Warlock's Curse (Which you would NEED for most all of the Warlock Paragon Paths anyhow, so taking a Warlock PP as a Warlord MCed into Warlock is pointless), another at 12th (Prime Shot or Shadow Walk at this point), and suchlike. Given that you already benefit from a Pact, you just can't actually benefit from it as a MC Warlock is... annoying. I want to be able to Curse stuff more than once per encounter, and reap the benefit of a free teleport when it dies without having to be a Hybrid. Besides, I didn't have Hybrid class rules when I made the character originally.

    Kay on
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    FelixSomethingSomethingFelixSomethingSomething Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Brody wrote: »
    Yeah, I keep thinking if you open a "exit point" directly adjacent to the "entry point", the front part's of each being 180 degrees vertical of each other. So you travel through what equates to a U. From there you find the distance you would travel back up, and your fall distance from there.

    Except for air resistance, the speed you would come out of the "exit point" traveling up is the same speed you'd be traveling down after you made that U and passed the same point on your way down.

    FelixSomethingSomething on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    SUPERSUGA wrote: »
    Who exactly is this SUPERSAGA guy mentioned in the OP?

    Now that you mention it, I don't know who that is either.
    Maticore wrote: »
    I don't know. It makes me wonder who wrote the Original Player's Handbook race and class descriptions. It was probably some Maticore jerk.

    Did you write the original PHB races entries? I thought that was from Goose! If you wrote those I will correct the OP.
    Dortmunder wrote: »
    So, even if the monster Forces IRs you away when you move adjacent, if you still have movement left you could continue the charge.

    Am I remembering that correctly? Or did it only apply to IIs and not IRs (or vice versa).

    It's the other way around, Immediate Interrupts you can continue charging but not with the Immediate Reaction. This is because they are not reacting to your movement while you're still moving, they can wait until you have finished moving and then react (which is what stops a creature from being able to charge further). An immediate interrupt cannot do this.

    Mearl's post back in the day was to clarify the rules did work like that, but he felt it should have been worded that the II stopped the movement and the IR didn't. As mentioned, it's one of the cases in the rules an IR is superior to an II.

    Aegeri on
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    MaticoreMaticore A Will To Power Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Aegeri wrote: »
    SUPERSUGA wrote: »
    Who exactly is this SUPERSAGA guy mentioned in the OP?

    Now that you mention it, I don't know who that is either.
    Maticore wrote: »
    I don't know. It makes me wonder who wrote the Original Player's Handbook race and class descriptions. It was probably some Maticore jerk.

    Did you write the original PHB races entries? I thought that was from Goose! If you wrote those I will correct the OP.

    It was me, I was responsible for the very first thread after 4E was released.

    It's actually a really funny read. As is the thread before that from when they were doing 4E content reveals.

    Remember when people used to think that if you didn't have the requisite con as a paladin you couldn't wear plate?

    I do. Because I apparently was annoyed enough by discussion regarding it that I specifically prohibited it in the thread rules.

    Maticore on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Well there you go. You could have said something a while ago you know :P

    Aegeri on
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