One reason I prefer rifles and shotguns for home defense is the visability factor. Your average troublemaker will take one look at a shotgun and bolt.
If you're really worried about the very rare case of someone trying to press on beyond that then by all means use a handgun.
It's a nice idea in theory, but generally speaking I don't think it's advisable to plan around the theory that you'll have enough time to get dressed with a gun belt or a holster and a shotgun on a sling so that you can easily and safely switch back and forth between the weapon you'll threaten to shoot an intruder with and the weapon you'll actually shoot an intruder with.
Plus the sound of the slide chambering the first round on the magazine you just loaded into your handgun is plenty threatening as it is.
One reason I prefer rifles and shotguns for home defense is the visability factor. Your average troublemaker will take one look at a shotgun and bolt.
If you're really worried about the very rare case of someone trying to press on beyond that then by all means use a handgun.
I have a folding-stock Saiga 12. My Sig P220 is infinitely more maneuverable indoors. I don't want someone who's broken into my house to know I'm armed.
So I sold my Anschutz 1903 and was planning on getting Mini-14, but I've decided to travel out of my comfort zone with rifles and get a handgun instead. My first priority is safety, I have a small child running around the house so the more layers of security and safety I can add the better. The second, not so much priority but some other thingy, is that the handgun would be almost exclusively for home defense and therefore could be the size of a small cannon. The amount of traveling I will be doing with it is to and from the range. I do not have a CCW permit, but I may get one in the future but I would, more than likely, get a different handgun for that.
So after a little bit of looking around I've found the Taurus Revolvers, specifically the Judge series, and the Walther PPS. Taurus has the "Taurus Security System," which basically uses a key to lock the hammer down so it can't be fired and the Walther PPS has a "Quicksafe" backstrap that disables the firearm when you take the backstrap of the grip off. Both appeal to me greatly because as long as those security systems are enabled, only my fiance or I can disengage them and operate the firearm. It seems pretty obvious to me now, as in as I am writing this, that I should get the Judge for HD and the Walther further down the line when I'm ready to CC.
A question though, are there other manufacturers out there that make similar security measures as these two companies or should I stick with the decision I have made?
Any reason you want a handgun for home defense over a shotgun?
Also it should be noted that the judge is a particularly good choice since it can fire slugs or shot. So you get the benefit of shot with the mobility of a handgun.
The issue is that said shot is .410 caliber shot. It's far less effective at everything than a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun. To paraphrase one of the guys who sometimes teaches at a local range, "I love taking a .410 shotgun to the trap range. I still miss everything, but I don't sound as silly when I blame the gun."
While .410 shot loads will work on small animals in the Judge, the only real viable defensive round in it seems to be the .45 LC. This is not necessarily a problem since the .45 LC is a versatile round though.
That is an interesting read. I don't really have my weapons for home defense. If anything I suppose I could use my revolver. At any rate, I notice that they say 4.5 inches in Ballistic Gel is not enough penetration for a viable defense round. This does beg the question, for me anyway, how much BG penetration is considered "good" for self defense? Looking around the Box O' Truth site I couldn't easily find an answer...
Unless your home invader is on four legs and looking for your honey pot I really wouldn't worry about round penetration when it comes to home defense. You shoot someone with anything they are going down.
Home defense seems to be a big part of gun ownership, so I'll just remind everyone that every state seems to have different home/self defense laws, so obviously know those before developing your plan.
I also think racking a slide purely for the effect of scaring an intruder is a bad idea. It gives away your position, let's them know you are armed, and what type of weapon you have. You take a lot of the element of surprise out.
Unless your home invader is on four legs and looking for your honey pot I really wouldn't worry about round penetration when it comes to home defense. You shoot someone with anything they are going down.
Absolutely false.
With drugs like PCP and Meth easily available, and a growing problem all around the country, just shooting someone tweaking with anything is not going to take them down. Hell my dad knows a guy who was shot in the stomach point blank with a 12ga shotgun with buckshot, and he kept on fighting with people until the ambulance got there and sedated him, and the only drug he was under the influence of was alcohol. Round choice, penetration, and placement are critical to stopping an aggressive intruder.
I believe the box'o'truth recomends 12 inches of penetration. Remember Dick Cheney's hunting buddy, he took a face full of birdshot at point blank range, and did not "go down".
That's why I keep a .357. I can shoot .38 specials which is a round proven for it's use in stopping people with out over penetration, and is backed by decades of police use for this purpose. It is what replaced the .357magnum round as a standard police issue, because while the .357 definitely stopped people, it also went through them, and into other people.
I personally keep my .357 loaded with 4 rounds of .38 special followed by 2 rounds of .357magnum. Hollow points on both.
If you absolutely have to shoot an aggressive intruder, you want to aim at their center mass, this is no time to try and pull off some fancy head shot, or leg shot "just to stop them", and you want to do it with a proven BG stopping round.
Home defense seems to be a big part of gun ownership, so I'll just remind everyone that every state seems to have different home/self defense laws, so obviously know those before developing your plan.
I also think racking a slide purely for the effect of scaring an intruder is a bad idea. It gives away your position, let's them know you are armed, and what type of weapon you have. You take a lot of the element of surprise out.
This is why I think a double action revolver is the best choice for a home defense weapon. In a double action you have two choices, pull the trigger from start to finish, this cocks the hammer, and releases it with one trigger pull. Or you can manually cock the hammer with your thumb, which moves the trigger, you then have a very light trigger pull to finish the action. No reason to ever give yourself away.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
You shoot someone with anything they are going down.
That's wishful thinking at best. I don't really have the time or inclination to start pulling up reports of police shootings, but there are a surprising amount where the subject(s) was shot multiple times and did not die. There's a good one on AR15.com that details a shooting, complete with graphic autopsy photos of how many rounds a guy took (17, I believe. .40 and 5.56), he was able to return fire and the guy was still struggling as they arrested him. He died later.
Shot placement is what determines if someone goes down.
This is also where I would advise against the Judge, as .45LC does not exactly lend itself to quick follow up shots, or extensive practice as it's fairly expensive. You've also only got 5 shots, I believe.
Home defense seems to be a big part of gun ownership, so I'll just remind everyone that every state seems to have different home/self defense laws, so obviously know those before developing your plan.
I also think racking a slide purely for the effect of scaring an intruder is a bad idea. It gives away your position, let's them know you are armed, and what type of weapon you have. You take a lot of the element of surprise out.
definitely
the nuances of your particular state's castle laws if there are any, changes things like whether or not its a good idea to let the person know you're armed or whether or not its a good idea to arm yourself in the first place
dlinfiniti on
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Suicide SlydeHaunts your dreamsof mountains sunk below the seaRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Thanks for all the input guys, now I don't know what to think. Safety is a primary concern for me however, and I really like the safety system Taurus has. Also I live in an apartment setting and I would rather not pepper my neighbors living space with shot if I don't have to.
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
I'd much rather have someone know I'm armed as it could prevent a tragic loss of life.
If they broke into my house, their life is forfeit. As my house has double-pane glass all around and burglar bars on all windows, I'm pretty sure if someone breaks in, it isn't just to take a look around.
I expect to learn to shoot many of these next summer, but just one question for now: What's the difference between .357 magnum and .357 sig?
.357 magnum is commonly found as a revolver round. .357 sig is for autoloaders. Generally it was intended to be an equivalent round in terms of energy transfer but it never really caught on.
Thanks for all the input guys, now I don't know what to think. Safety is a primary concern for me however, and I really like the safety system Taurus has. Also I live in an apartment setting and I would rather not pepper my neighbors living space with shot if I don't have to.
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
I would personally suggest this then if you really like the Taurus safety feature.
I am extremely biased towards the .357 magnum, and I don't hide it, but it's because it's such a fantastic firearm to own. As a side note, you can also buy birdshot rounds for it too And like I said you can shoot .38 specials from it, so you don't need to worry as much about over penetration.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
Chasm brings up a good point that good home defense is more than just firearms. Locks, windows, location, phone access, etc. Every night my wife and I have a ritual where we check locks, and I've drilled it into her head that her weapon is the phone, so she always has it right next to her near our bed.
Also, remember that a home invasion will most likely occur while you're asleep, at night. If you're lucky enough to be woken up while they are in your home, you've suddenly just entered the most stressful event in your life still half asleep. I think a lot of people are great shots at the range, but stress adds so many variables to the game. Did you load the gun? Did you chamber a round? Is the safety on? Where is everyone? How many shots do I have? Did I bring an extra magazine? Stress shooting means you miss. You might shoot great groups from the bench, what about half asleep while your life is on the line? You can pour through 5 shots and not hit anything.
Get something easy to handle, with large magazine capacity. Also, put money into other areas of your house that could be vulnerable.
all I can gather is that a carbine is shorter than the rifle of the same design, but I've seen carbines that are longer than some rifles
Generally this is the case. Carbines were first introduced as horseback weapons, when all firearms were still muzzleloaders and thus a shorter barrel was required for ease of reloading while mounted. Modern carbines are often used by units that are not intended for frontline combat, and sometimes are chambered for a smaller round than a say, battle rifle. The benefit is a less bulky weapon that is easier to carry around while doing other things.
Chasm brings up a good point that good home defense is more than just firearms. Locks, windows, location, phone access, etc. Every night my wife and I have a ritual where we check locks, and I've drilled it into her head that her weapon is the phone, so she always has it right next to her near our bed.
Also, remember that a home invasion will most likely occur while you're asleep, at night. If you're lucky enough to be woken up while they are in your home, you've suddenly just entered the most stressful event in your life still half asleep. I think a lot of people are great shots at the range, but stress adds so many variables to the game. Did you load the gun? Did you chamber a round? Is the safety on? Where is everyone? How many shots do I have? Did I bring an extra magazine? Stress shooting means you miss. You might shoot great groups from the bench, what about half asleep while your life is on the line? You can pour through 5 shots and not hit anything.
Get something easy to handle, with large magazine capacity. Also, put money into other areas of your house that could be vulnerable.
Home invasions are on the rise, and fatalities resulting from them seem to be on the rise as well. If answering the door for someone whose car I don't recognize, I put my Karambit in my front pocket and put my Sig in my IWB holster. Maybe a little paranoid, but I'm not the only person living in my house.
Thanks for all the input guys, now I don't know what to think. Safety is a primary concern for me however, and I really like the safety system Taurus has. Also I live in an apartment setting and I would rather not pepper my neighbors living space with shot if I don't have to.
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
I would personally suggest this then if you really like the Taurus safety feature.
I am extremely biased towards the .357 magnum, and I don't hide it, but it's because it's such a fantastic firearm to own. As a side note, you can also buy birdshot rounds for it too And like I said you can shoot .38 specials from it, so you don't need to worry as much about over penetration.
I actually was looking at a .357, the Judge came as a recommendation from a few people, including a guy behind the counter. The mention of over-penetration and it was essentially the first thing out of their mouth. Both fit my hand pretty well though so I'm not too concerned with that. It does look like I could shoot the .357 at a cheaper cost than the Judge if I shoot .38 special at the range.
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
I wouldn't bother with a Judge, to be totally honest. Sure, there are some .410 loads that're actually designed for it, but at the end of the day, you're firing weak-ass shotgun shells from a stubby barrel, or ammo that's almost prohibitively expensive to practice with. You're better off with a .357 revolver. Or you could be like my friend who uses guns to substitute for a social life and buy a .460 S&W. Talk about a stupid, pointless gun.
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
I love buying ammo online. I've had success with Ammunitiontogo.com, and I love it when the ammo fairy comes and drops a gift at my door. No more waiting at Walmart for the dude with the ammo cabinet key to arrive.
Yeah, ammunitiontogo has good prices, a broad selection, and excellent customer service. I've also ordered Winchester Ranger T-series ammo from Tactical Defense Solutions. Walmart has started carrying Tula ammo.
Thanks for all the input guys, now I don't know what to think. Safety is a primary concern for me however, and I really like the safety system Taurus has. Also I live in an apartment setting and I would rather not pepper my neighbors living space with shot if I don't have to.
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
I would personally suggest this then if you really like the Taurus safety feature.
I am extremely biased towards the .357 magnum, and I don't hide it, but it's because it's such a fantastic firearm to own. As a side note, you can also buy birdshot rounds for it too And like I said you can shoot .38 specials from it, so you don't need to worry as much about over penetration.
I actually was looking at a .357, the Judge came as a recommendation from a few people, including a guy behind the counter. The mention of over-penetration and it was essentially the first thing out of their mouth. Both fit my hand pretty well though so I'm not too concerned with that. It does look like I could shoot the .357 at a cheaper cost than the Judge if I shoot .38 special at the range.
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
I think a lot of people recommend the judge, with no real knowledge of the judge. It's very much the "new hot thing" lately. I frequently go drool over guns I want to own at about 3 gunshops around here. In the small family owned shop, they never say shit about the judge unless someone asks specifically about it, in the two chain stores, they push it like it's crack.
I'm not saying it's a horrible piece of shit that should never be bought... what I am saying is it's an extremely over hyped gun that should probably not be bought by most people, because there are hundreds of better fire arms to own, over a judge.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
Thanks for all the input guys, now I don't know what to think. Safety is a primary concern for me however, and I really like the safety system Taurus has. Also I live in an apartment setting and I would rather not pepper my neighbors living space with shot if I don't have to.
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
I would personally suggest this then if you really like the Taurus safety feature.
I am extremely biased towards the .357 magnum, and I don't hide it, but it's because it's such a fantastic firearm to own. As a side note, you can also buy birdshot rounds for it too And like I said you can shoot .38 specials from it, so you don't need to worry as much about over penetration.
I actually was looking at a .357, the Judge came as a recommendation from a few people, including a guy behind the counter. The mention of over-penetration and it was essentially the first thing out of their mouth. Both fit my hand pretty well though so I'm not too concerned with that. It does look like I could shoot the .357 at a cheaper cost than the Judge if I shoot .38 special at the range.
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
I think a lot of people recommend the judge, with no real knowledge of the judge. It's very much the "new hot thing" lately. I frequently go drool over guns I want to own at about 3 gunshops around here. In the small family owned shop, they never say shit about the judge unless someone asks specifically about it, in the two chain stores, they push it like it's crack.
I'm not saying it's a horrible piece of shit that should never be bought... what I am saying is it's an extremely over hyped gun that should probably not be bought by most people, because there are hundreds of better fire arms to own, over a judge.
exactly.
people ask me why i hate the gun so much- it's not that i hate it. it's that it's novetly, and has niche use. it's not this whole new thing (tm). for the vast majority of people, you're better off going in a different direction.
I'm not even sure what niche it is. It's not as concealable as other revolvers, has limited ammo choices, and is heavy unless you opt for the ultralight frame, in which case, God help you if you want to make a follow-up shot. I've shot one and honestly couldn't wait to give it back to the guy. It just felt like shit, and I actually like Tauruses (Taurii?).
I'm not even sure what niche it is. It's not as concealable as other revolvers, has limited ammo choices, and is heavy unless you opt for the ultralight frame, in which case, God help you if you want to make a follow-up shot. I've shot one and honestly couldn't wait to give it back to the guy. It just felt like shit, and I actually like Tauruses (Taurii?).
It fits the niche of "we need something cool". My guess to pluralize Taurus would simply be Taurus'. I've been a fan of Taurus for awhile, though I've read their newer line of rimfire revolvers have some quality problems, specifically their 9 or 10 round capacity guns.
Speaking of rimfire, does anyone have any personal experience with .17hmr. I'm a big fan of .22lr and thinking getting another .22lr rifle, but I've been interested in .17hmrs as of late too. I know it's quite a bit more expensive to shoot than bulk .22lr, but if it's worth getting in addition to a .22lr I would consider it.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
I'm not even sure what niche it is. It's not as concealable as other revolvers, has limited ammo choices, and is heavy unless you opt for the ultralight frame, in which case, God help you if you want to make a follow-up shot. I've shot one and honestly couldn't wait to give it back to the guy. It just felt like shit, and I actually like Tauruses (Taurii?).
from what i understand, people like it to shoot snakes, without carrying a longarm?
whatever, i guess. it's a pointless weapon for almost every case use, imo.
Unless your home invader is on four legs and looking for your honey pot I really wouldn't worry about round penetration when it comes to home defense. You shoot someone with anything they are going down.
Always worry about round penetration, unless you know for a fact you will never miss.
I realize the box o truth site said 12" of BG penetration would allow a .45LC round to be adequate for a self defense round, but I'm wondering if there is an "ideal" amount of penetration. I'm not trying to say anything is bad or good here, I'm genuinely curious to see if there have been any studies on it. (Which it seems like there would be.)
I realize the box o truth site said 12" of BG penetration would allow a .45LC round to be adequate for a self defense round, but I'm wondering if there is an "ideal" amount of penetration. I'm not trying to say anything is bad or good here, I'm genuinely curious to see if there have been any studies on it. (Which it seems like there would be.)
I believe the FBI has a standard of 12" of penetration for its ammo. They have done extensive studies, specifically after that Miami shootout in the 80's.
take all real life testimonials of x many shots landed and they kept fighting! with a grain of salt. especially with police forces where spray n' pay seems to be the predominant method against all armed criminals, shot placement goes out the window. unless the locations are specified, it's safe to assume a significant number of grazes and digit and limb shots. thoracic and ocular cavity GSW ought to be the standard but rarely are.
Shots to the thoracic cavity aren't necessarily fatal either. Unless you hit someone in the heart or a major artery, chances are a shot to the thoracic cavity won't be fatal.
People don't have hit points, even if you hit a non vital area on a target (and I'm including the lungs and digestive system) several times, a target could still survive. That doesn't mean that the target won't be subdued, but it does mean that the individual could survive should they receive treatment in the appropriate amount of time.
The lethality of a round doesn't mean anything if the shooter isn't skilled with his weapon (of course in a stressful scenario it becomes increasingly difficult to hit a target regardless of training/experience), so buying a weapon with a larger caliber because you may encounter someone on drugs is a terrible idea (it would also make follow-up shots more difficult due to the increased recoil, and it increases the chance of penetrating walls and harming loved ones and neighbors).
right, there are very few shots that can reliably stop in short order- and fewer that can be reliably landed under stress. but you hear about plenty of incidents- like the '86 shootout, for example- where a few thoracic shots are landed and instant death isn't the result, so everyone cries '9mm is too weak!', or whatever. it's horseshit. grazes from shot, limb shots, a grazing back shot. the round that was said to be a 'killer' (before the point blank shots that ended the encounter) was 9mm- and went through an arm, deflated a lung, and was retarded maybe an inch from the heart.
it's not really a problem of hardware- it's software. if you put any self-defense round in center of mass or above, you're doing what you need to do.
i mean, it's one thing with soldiers asking for seven six two- fmj at long range and on sprinting targets is a whole other matter. you get a civilian, though, who is forced to empty his weapon at SD range- usually no more than seven yards- and people argue about what caliber could save his life. that's crazy.
Whenever people talk about "stopping power" as though it is a quantifiable, I can only assume that they have little experience with firearms and they probably shouldn't own one. I don't care how many Joules .x caliber bullet has at y grains, or even the size of the wound cavity it creates, neither is accurate measure of its "stopping power".
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
I love buying ammo online. I've had success with Ammunitiontogo.com, and I love it when the ammo fairy comes and drops a gift at my door. No more waiting at Walmart for the dude with the ammo cabinet key to arrive.
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It's a nice idea in theory, but generally speaking I don't think it's advisable to plan around the theory that you'll have enough time to get dressed with a gun belt or a holster and a shotgun on a sling so that you can easily and safely switch back and forth between the weapon you'll threaten to shoot an intruder with and the weapon you'll actually shoot an intruder with.
Plus the sound of the slide chambering the first round on the magazine you just loaded into your handgun is plenty threatening as it is.
what makes a carbine?
all I can gather is that a carbine is shorter than the rifle of the same design, but I've seen carbines that are longer than some rifles
I have a folding-stock Saiga 12. My Sig P220 is infinitely more maneuverable indoors. I don't want someone who's broken into my house to know I'm armed.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
That is an interesting read. I don't really have my weapons for home defense. If anything I suppose I could use my revolver. At any rate, I notice that they say 4.5 inches in Ballistic Gel is not enough penetration for a viable defense round. This does beg the question, for me anyway, how much BG penetration is considered "good" for self defense? Looking around the Box O' Truth site I couldn't easily find an answer...
I also think racking a slide purely for the effect of scaring an intruder is a bad idea. It gives away your position, let's them know you are armed, and what type of weapon you have. You take a lot of the element of surprise out.
Absolutely false.
With drugs like PCP and Meth easily available, and a growing problem all around the country, just shooting someone tweaking with anything is not going to take them down. Hell my dad knows a guy who was shot in the stomach point blank with a 12ga shotgun with buckshot, and he kept on fighting with people until the ambulance got there and sedated him, and the only drug he was under the influence of was alcohol. Round choice, penetration, and placement are critical to stopping an aggressive intruder.
I believe the box'o'truth recomends 12 inches of penetration. Remember Dick Cheney's hunting buddy, he took a face full of birdshot at point blank range, and did not "go down".
That's why I keep a .357. I can shoot .38 specials which is a round proven for it's use in stopping people with out over penetration, and is backed by decades of police use for this purpose. It is what replaced the .357magnum round as a standard police issue, because while the .357 definitely stopped people, it also went through them, and into other people.
I personally keep my .357 loaded with 4 rounds of .38 special followed by 2 rounds of .357magnum. Hollow points on both.
If you absolutely have to shoot an aggressive intruder, you want to aim at their center mass, this is no time to try and pull off some fancy head shot, or leg shot "just to stop them", and you want to do it with a proven BG stopping round.
This is why I think a double action revolver is the best choice for a home defense weapon. In a double action you have two choices, pull the trigger from start to finish, this cocks the hammer, and releases it with one trigger pull. Or you can manually cock the hammer with your thumb, which moves the trigger, you then have a very light trigger pull to finish the action. No reason to ever give yourself away.
That's wishful thinking at best. I don't really have the time or inclination to start pulling up reports of police shootings, but there are a surprising amount where the subject(s) was shot multiple times and did not die. There's a good one on AR15.com that details a shooting, complete with graphic autopsy photos of how many rounds a guy took (17, I believe. .40 and 5.56), he was able to return fire and the guy was still struggling as they arrested him. He died later.
Shot placement is what determines if someone goes down.
This is also where I would advise against the Judge, as .45LC does not exactly lend itself to quick follow up shots, or extensive practice as it's fairly expensive. You've also only got 5 shots, I believe.
definitely
the nuances of your particular state's castle laws if there are any, changes things like whether or not its a good idea to let the person know you're armed or whether or not its a good idea to arm yourself in the first place
I did handle an out of place Mossberg 500 Cruiser at a sporting goods store today. It was really tacti-cool, with a compensator, Piccadilly rail and heat shield, but it fit me better than most shotguns I've handled. I have a small frame and small hands but some muscle from the type of work I do. I can handle most calibers and gauges well but not the frames that most come in.
Mr. Sauce you raise a good point about knowing state laws. I know where I live that it's most advisable to call the local PD and see what they use, anything more than that and an excitable prosecutor may want to get you for excessive force and malice. Also, racking the slide really depends on the psychology of the attacker, they may take it as a challenge and it could escalate the situation, or they may shit their pants and run. Without knowing the psychology of the attacker I believe it is better to conceal your presence until absolutely necessary.
If they broke into my house, their life is forfeit. As my house has double-pane glass all around and burglar bars on all windows, I'm pretty sure if someone breaks in, it isn't just to take a look around.
.357SIG is an attempt at getting .357Mag power into a reasonably-sized semiauto pistol.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
.357 magnum is commonly found as a revolver round. .357 sig is for autoloaders. Generally it was intended to be an equivalent round in terms of energy transfer but it never really caught on.
I would personally suggest this then if you really like the Taurus safety feature.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=265&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=
I am extremely biased towards the .357 magnum, and I don't hide it, but it's because it's such a fantastic firearm to own. As a side note, you can also buy birdshot rounds for it too
Also, remember that a home invasion will most likely occur while you're asleep, at night. If you're lucky enough to be woken up while they are in your home, you've suddenly just entered the most stressful event in your life still half asleep. I think a lot of people are great shots at the range, but stress adds so many variables to the game. Did you load the gun? Did you chamber a round? Is the safety on? Where is everyone? How many shots do I have? Did I bring an extra magazine? Stress shooting means you miss. You might shoot great groups from the bench, what about half asleep while your life is on the line? You can pour through 5 shots and not hit anything.
Get something easy to handle, with large magazine capacity. Also, put money into other areas of your house that could be vulnerable.
Generally this is the case. Carbines were first introduced as horseback weapons, when all firearms were still muzzleloaders and thus a shorter barrel was required for ease of reloading while mounted. Modern carbines are often used by units that are not intended for frontline combat, and sometimes are chambered for a smaller round than a say, battle rifle. The benefit is a less bulky weapon that is easier to carry around while doing other things.
you and i, sir; we are like this
i espouse pretty much the same thing in the OP
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
I actually was looking at a .357, the Judge came as a recommendation from a few people, including a guy behind the counter. The mention of over-penetration and it was essentially the first thing out of their mouth. Both fit my hand pretty well though so I'm not too concerned with that. It does look like I could shoot the .357 at a cheaper cost than the Judge if I shoot .38 special at the range.
As a side note, how many here are familiar with ammo engine? It works pretty well for me in estimating the cost of ammo locally if I go by the average. Also there's Buds Gun Shop for gun porn and getting firearms at a decent price.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
I love buying ammo online. I've had success with Ammunitiontogo.com, and I love it when the ammo fairy comes and drops a gift at my door. No more waiting at Walmart for the dude with the ammo cabinet key to arrive.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
usually go and pick it up to save on shipping since he's nearby
I think a lot of people recommend the judge, with no real knowledge of the judge. It's very much the "new hot thing" lately. I frequently go drool over guns I want to own at about 3 gunshops around here. In the small family owned shop, they never say shit about the judge unless someone asks specifically about it, in the two chain stores, they push it like it's crack.
I'm not saying it's a horrible piece of shit that should never be bought... what I am saying is it's an extremely over hyped gun that should probably not be bought by most people, because there are hundreds of better fire arms to own, over a judge.
exactly.
people ask me why i hate the gun so much- it's not that i hate it. it's that it's novetly, and has niche use. it's not this whole new thing (tm). for the vast majority of people, you're better off going in a different direction.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
It fits the niche of "we need something cool". My guess to pluralize Taurus would simply be Taurus'. I've been a fan of Taurus for awhile, though I've read their newer line of rimfire revolvers have some quality problems, specifically their 9 or 10 round capacity guns.
Speaking of rimfire, does anyone have any personal experience with .17hmr. I'm a big fan of .22lr and thinking getting another .22lr rifle, but I've been interested in .17hmrs as of late too. I know it's quite a bit more expensive to shoot than bulk .22lr, but if it's worth getting in addition to a .22lr I would consider it.
from what i understand, people like it to shoot snakes, without carrying a longarm?
whatever, i guess. it's a pointless weapon for almost every case use, imo.
Always worry about round penetration, unless you know for a fact you will never miss.
Thanks for that. They have a good price on their Ranger .45 ACP.
what? what are you buying ammo for
:P
i love you chu
haha fuck you
i had to get rid of my SIG but i have friends
I believe the FBI has a standard of 12" of penetration for its ammo. They have done extensive studies, specifically after that Miami shootout in the 80's.
People don't have hit points, even if you hit a non vital area on a target (and I'm including the lungs and digestive system) several times, a target could still survive. That doesn't mean that the target won't be subdued, but it does mean that the individual could survive should they receive treatment in the appropriate amount of time.
The lethality of a round doesn't mean anything if the shooter isn't skilled with his weapon (of course in a stressful scenario it becomes increasingly difficult to hit a target regardless of training/experience), so buying a weapon with a larger caliber because you may encounter someone on drugs is a terrible idea (it would also make follow-up shots more difficult due to the increased recoil, and it increases the chance of penetrating walls and harming loved ones and neighbors).
it's not really a problem of hardware- it's software. if you put any self-defense round in center of mass or above, you're doing what you need to do.
i mean, it's one thing with soldiers asking for seven six two- fmj at long range and on sprinting targets is a whole other matter. you get a civilian, though, who is forced to empty his weapon at SD range- usually no more than seven yards- and people argue about what caliber could save his life. that's crazy.
Whenever people talk about "stopping power" as though it is a quantifiable, I can only assume that they have little experience with firearms and they probably shouldn't own one. I don't care how many Joules .x caliber bullet has at y grains, or even the size of the wound cavity it creates, neither is accurate measure of its "stopping power".
Great googly moogly, I can buy Rubber Buckshot, Rubber Slugs and even OC rounds over here?
*sniff* Oh America. I knew there was a reason I left the beaches and Vegemite behind.
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