For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
I don't see how this is an argument that women have less rights than men. Lack of funds is an issue for both men and women when it comes to paying for an education.
And according to the 2006 Canadian census:
Some 33% of women aged between 25 and 34 had a university degree, compared to 25% of men in this age group. For those in the 35 to 44 years age group, the proportions of men and women having a university degree were almost identical, 24% and 25%, respectively.
So, I'm not seeing any evidence that Canadian women are disadvantaged when it comes to education
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
What an odd argument. What does Canadian womens' love of fashion have to do with rights? Furthermore, what percentage of Iranian and Pakistani women have a college degree?
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Well, to beat on the economic angle a bit, here in Saudi we got excellent maternal health care, but it not because of good management rather throwing money at the system 'till it works well.
On topic though, As long as there isn't an Opt-out option for woman, I'd say western woman has it better. It don't matter how awesome your dogma is, if it plane asks you to not view outside sources and tells you that it will punish none adherence right now on earth, then its an oppressive dogma.
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
Where are you from?
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Actually let me further my point. Ive lived in Canada from 1997 till 2008 and came back now till my education is finished. I dont really see the different of rights compared to my own tribe when i came back. Our women have been equal since the 1100s where they have equal say in everything and have been in many leadership positions as well. When defining rights I could say that even before the western world had an inkling of right we were doing so.
To generalize the Islamic world as having poor to no rights is false.
Nobody's really said that though. Everyone's recognized that the Islamic world is massive, diverse one. What annoyed most people was the video complained about the Western World, used shitty statistics, then ignored the far, far larger problems a lot of the Islamic world has regarding women's rights compared to any Western one.
Edit: And this still doesn't demonstrate how women's rights in Canada are less than those in I'm assuming Turkmenistan.
Actually let me further my point. Ive lived in Canada from 1997 till 2008 and came back now till my education is finished. I dont really see the different of rights compared to my own tribe when i came back. Our women have been equal since the 1100s where they have equal say in everything and have been in many leadership positions as well. When defining rights I could say that even before the western world had an inkling of right we were doing so.
To generalize the Islamic world as having poor to no rights is false.
True, so let me rephrase, any country that says "we will rule by Islamic law" will have far less rights for woman then to man.
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
Intriguing!
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
...umm, universal education has existed in Canada since the 19th century. In fact, it's compulsory.
...
Regarding "HUman Rights" It is an idealistic method of imposing colonization on countries. These rights are nothing but a bunch of "Westerners" who impose their own theories and ideas on the rest of the world. The problem is that none of these "Western" countries have ever come out of the colonizing brainwashing their ancestors have done for the last generation or so. IMF, WDB and the rest of the UN is a method for imposing "Western" ideals and colonizing without putting any real force down.
It sure as hell didn't work when Europe tried it either.
The book they established for use in Europe is flawed thus the the systems used is flawed as well.
Lets put an end to this once and for all, Islam does not always mean Theocracy. There is such things as Islamic Democracy, currently in use in Jordan, Indonesia, Kuwait, Iran (no, they are not a Theocracy, they are a democratic state, replace Imam's choosing candidates to Rich people choosing Rich people in the US) and many others that have minority representation, rights for women (Kuwait and Iran are less, Indonesia and Jordan have more).
You do not need "Western" democracy. You need Islamic Democracy since it works well and has the Islamic requirement many people want and feel secure with.
...
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
Intriguing!
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
Hunh, strange.
I don't actually see anything in your post that criticizes a lack of rights for women, so much as criticizing women for being wrong about how they choose to exercise the rights they have.
I mean, congrats on your tribe being dedicated to education. So is mine! Very proud parents really excited I'm going for a PhD. But I don't really see where that comes into play in this discussion. Because it's not really a "right" to be a dedicated proponent of something.
Edit: Oh! Haha, and yeah I forgot, Canada has universal compulsory education, and post-secondary is deeply discounted and highly encouraged. In fact, almost every Canadian attends University.
...
Regarding "HUman Rights" It is an idealistic method of imposing colonization on countries. These rights are nothing but a bunch of "Westerners" who impose their own theories and ideas on the rest of the world. The problem is that none of these "Western" countries have ever come out of the colonizing brainwashing their ancestors have done for the last generation or so. IMF, WDB and the rest of the UN is a method for imposing "Western" ideals and colonizing without putting any real force down.
It sure as hell didn't work when Europe tried it either.
The book they established for use in Europe is flawed thus the the systems used is flawed as well.
Lets put an end to this once and for all, Islam does not always mean Theocracy. There is such things as Islamic Democracy, currently in use in Jordan, Indonesia, Kuwait, Iran (no, they are not a Theocracy, they are a democratic state, replace Imam's choosing candidates to Rich people choosing Rich people in the US) and many others that have minority representation, rights for women (Kuwait and Iran are less, Indonesia and Jordan have more).
You do not need "Western" democracy. You need Islamic Democracy since it works well and has the Islamic requirement many people want and feel secure with.
...
Actually let me further my point. Ive lived in Canada from 1997 till 2008 and came back now till my education is finished. I dont really see the different of rights compared to my own tribe when i came back. Our women have been equal since the 1100s where they have equal say in everything and have been in many leadership positions as well. When defining rights I could say that even before the western world had an inkling of right we were doing so.
To generalize the Islamic world as having poor to no rights is false.
How does the timeframe of equality in your country have any bearing on the timeframe of Canadian women's rights?
also how does "some women decide not to further their education" equate to "women don't have the right to further their education?"
Also, what is wrong with pursuing fashion? I've had many friends (female and male alike) who have sought to further their education in fashion design, multimedia design, and architecture design. All three of those fields essentially boil down to dressing something up in fashion, whether it's clothing, software, or buildings.
Just a few of the things I liked while I was in University are video games, playing guitar, and binge drinking; all of which I was able to do enjoy while simultaneously completing my Bachelor's degree. Does having hobbies outside of school work somehow invalidate my education? I know that if I didn't have my hobbies and social life then I would not have completed my degree. In the same way, I can appreciate that many of the women who enjoyed shopping for clothes and talking gossip with their friends enjoyed those activities in the exact same way as I did my activities. Are you the judge of what hobbies other students should be allowed to have? Surely you had things you did in your free time outside of school work, yes?
The two cases of women's rights you've elucidated are not only extremely poor examples for your argument, but I find them troubling signs of what could either be your culture's idea that women somehow need protection or your own personal bias against western women pursuing education.
I'm curious, what is the minimum standard of education within your tribe? The public schooling system in Canada is supposed to prepare all students (male or female) with the pre-requisite information required to pursue any post secondary discipline as well as able to perform many entry level positions in a variety of industries. Whether the public system realistically meets those goals is a whole other discussion.
The Constitution of Iran explicitly declares it to be an Islamic state; Islam is the official religion; all law must be compatible with Sharia law and the Quran; there are laws against blasphemy; and their highest civic office is also a religious leader.
I'm not sure how anybody could seriously attempt to argue that Iran is not a theocracy. It's a textbook theocracy.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
The two cases of women's rights you've elucidated are not only extremely poor examples for your argument, but I find them troubling signs of what could either be your culture's idea that women somehow need protection or your own personal bias against western women pursuing education.
I'm curious, what is the minimum standard of education within your tribe? The public schooling system in Canada is supposed to prepare all students (male or female) with the pre-requisite information required to pursue any post secondary discipline as well as able to perform many entry level positions in a variety of industries. Whether the public system realistically meets those goals is a whole other discussion.
If he's from Iran (as it sounds like he is), the standard for high school education is actually quite high. Generally topics covered in the last two years of high school in Iran are taught in the 1st or 2nd year of university in the Canada and US. Where Iran falls behind is post-graduate education (masters/phd degrees).
That aside, I agree that it is somewhat amusing that he uses examples of women choosing how to live their lives to support an argument that they're not truly free.
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
Intriguing!
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
You're confusing human rights with personal preference and personal income.
Unless Canada forces these women to enroll in such courses and purposefully docs their income so they cannot go to college you have no ground to stand on.
King Riptor on
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
The two cases of women's rights you've elucidated are not only extremely poor examples for your argument, but I find them troubling signs of what could either be your culture's idea that women somehow need protection or your own personal bias against western women pursuing education.
I'm curious, what is the minimum standard of education within your tribe? The public schooling system in Canada is supposed to prepare all students (male or female) with the pre-requisite information required to pursue any post secondary discipline as well as able to perform many entry level positions in a variety of industries. Whether the public system realistically meets those goals is a whole other discussion.
If he's from Iran (as it sounds like he is), the standard for high school education is actually quite high. Generally topics covered in the last two years of high school in Iran are taught in the 1st or 2nd year of university in the Canada and US. Where Iran falls behind is post-graduate education (masters/phd degrees).
That aside, I agree that it is somewhat amusing that he uses examples of women choosing how to live their lives to support an argument that they're not truly free.
Eh senior topics in highschool that I had I'm not getting until third year of college, but then again I was taking Cisco Networking in 9th grade (for all the good it did me). It's impossible to quantify America's educational system, let alone the wests with simple statistics.
The same is almost certainly true for Iran, unless they're completely free of social stratification which I find unlikely. I find it possible that Iran has a more uniform educational system than America, but I would bet dollars to donuts that facts and fundamental scientific truths are ignored wholesale, as in the more fundamentalist parts of the United States. The Koran probably doesn't take super kindly to homosexuals and the facts of evolution.
I think saying that women wasting their parents money on fashion shows that we "treat women worse" indicates a fundamental societal difference. I would say that if women didn't have the right to spend money on whatever they wanted, that would be mistreating them. A guy can go blow all his money on fast cars if he wants, should the women of society get together and stop him for his own good?
Edit: One thing I will give Iran, an Iranian highschool graduate probably knows a hell of a lot more about American foreign policy re:the middle east and north africa than an American student does. Nationalism kind of gets in the way of telling an honest history of our misdeeds in the region.
An Iranian student is probably taught about more of the US's foreign policy, but I would also wager there is a more than healthy amount of nationalism there as well.
For all their sins though, access for women to higher education is not one of them. More women go to college than men.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Nationalism kind of gets in the way of telling an honest history of our misdeeds in the region.
I wonder if they ever study their own empires as examples of imperialism or general badness.
We do, but hardly as an example of badness though, I mean, the islamic expansion into roman lands abolished the caste system of these lands, and our taxes were a lot less. To the pesant of the time, the Islamic empire was better than the Roman one.
But history gets weird around world war 1, thats when the good guys and bad guys stop being obvious.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
I was more thinking in the sense that modern academia views all empires as being inherently bad, not that the Muslim empire was a notably egregious example.
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
I'm assuming this is a joke?
Not really, he's demonstrated a high degree of ignorance in the canadian politics thread. He seems to have a poor grasp of the fundamentals of logic/reason.
I was more thinking in the sense that modern academia views all empires as being inherently bad, not that the Muslim empire was a notably egregious example.
Well, its hard to say that emipres are bad when your country is a kingdom :P
So no, we never even argue on that.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Well, its hard to say that emipres are bad when your country is a kingdom
So I'm reading a book on Occidentalism and I'm on a chapter talking about public morality and something called jahiliyya. Anyways, the part relevant to this thread discusses an Iranian named Morteza Motahhari, who was best buds with Ayatollah Khomeini.
He was obsessed with the West and with the issue if women. It was important to him to prove how much more humane and considerate Islam and the East were, in this regard, than the West. He firmly believed that the obvious differences between man and woman were deliberately obliterated in the West, so that women could be exploited more easily in the interests of capitalism. He observed that Bertrand Russell hoped to solve the "shortage" of marriageable men by promoting the immoral idea of single parenthood for women, instead of taking up the moral Muslim practice of polygamy ... Western permissiveness, to the believers, shows not just a lack of morality, but a lack of the most basic sense of honor.
So this Motahhari guy - are his views outdated in the Middle East? Was he a kook on the fringe or do modern Iranian men still get the heebie jeebies when it comes to gender equality? That the video in the OP even exists gives me clues to the answer but I can't read Iran's mood.
Neither the east nor west truly treats women respectfully all taken into consideration.
In the east, women are second class citizens who might be be stoned thanks to archaic laws being essentially copy and pasted into an otherwise fairly modern society.
In the west, women are second class citizens who make 15% less cash money than men for the same work.
Now I am totally scratching the surface here, but I think we have a long way to go before we can truly be a great example for how to treat women. The video in the OP is just yet another (in my opinion) tasteless attempt in defense of a society that feels threatened by what they consider dangerous ideas- such as women being equals or being able to elect your leaders instead of them being hand chosen by God.
So I'm reading a book on Occidentalism and I'm on a chapter talking about public morality and something called jahiliyya. Anyways, the part relevant to this thread discusses an Iranian named Morteza Motahhari, who was best buds with Ayatollah Khomeini.
He was obsessed with the West and with the issue if women. It was important to him to prove how much more humane and considerate Islam and the East were, in this regard, than the West. He firmly believed that the obvious differences between man and woman were deliberately obliterated in the West, so that women could be exploited more easily in the interests of capitalism. He observed that Bertrand Russell hoped to solve the "shortage" of marriageable men by promoting the immoral idea of single parenthood for women, instead of taking up the moral Muslim practice of polygamy ... Western permissiveness, to the believers, shows not just a lack of morality, but a lack of the most basic sense of honor.
So this Motahhari guy - are his views outdated in the Middle East? Was he a kook on the fringe or do modern Iranian men still get the heebie jeebies when it comes to gender equality? That the video in the OP even exists gives me clues to the answer but I can't read Iran's mood.
First off, you can go and visit Iran. You can don't do so from the US, but you can get a connecting flight in Germany. The second you land in a city airport like Tehran, you'll walk by some bearded dudes and then a group of Iranian college kids with Prada glasses, Armani Xchange teeshirts, and Reboks. The Iranian men in power obviously don't want to rock the boat and have women in their exclusive club, but the men and boys on the streets, particularly the younger demographic (which Iran is actually a very young country when it comes to average age than compared to the US), have surprising ideas of how the world should work. Namely voting for your represented officials and yes, they show interest in women's rights. You will not see protests because they are currently busy protesting for their own freedom from an oppressive government.
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
In the west, women are second class citizens who make 15% less cash money than men for the same work.
Can I see an example of women being paid 15% less for an identical job? Whenever I investigate this, it always turns out to be things like women congregating in the less well paid areas of specialisations (the example I looked at was medicine). If they were, say, brain surgeons, they were not earning less than an equivalently qualified brain surgeon at the same stage in his career - but if you compared surgeons as a block they would be clustered in the less well paid areas.
So you're saying Iran's government doesn't represent the Iranian people very well.
A worrying notion, I know.
Being middle eastern myself, (Assyrian) and simply knowing the type of people who live there, who have lived there and have moved to this country, and hearing what it actually is like as opposed to the stock footage reels the western media plays of angry men protesting and throwing molotov cocktails/stones, I gotta say that unless you truly know what it's like over there, you don't truly know what it's like over there.
I have never been, but from family that has recently made the move, from friends who have had families and villages taken away from them, and from some of them- have fought for defending their homes, I'll go ahead and take their word as a citizen of the country rather than some UN report or some bullshit CNN headline.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
In the west, women are second class citizens who make 15% less cash money than men for the same work.
Can I see an example of women being paid 15% less for an identical job? Whenever I investigate this, it always turns out to be things like women congregating in the less well paid areas of specialisations (the example I looked at was medicine). If they were, say, brain surgeons, they were not earning less than an equivalently qualified brain surgeon at the same stage in his career - but if you compared surgeons as a block they would be clustered in the less well paid areas.
Walmart is going to be an excellent example, as well as the details behind the Ledbetter v Goodyear Tire lawsuit.
Neither the east nor west truly treats women respectfully all taken into consideration.
In the east, women are second class citizens who might be be stoned thanks to archaic laws being essentially copy and pasted into an otherwise fairly modern society.
In the west, women are second class citizens who make 15% less cash money than men for the same work.
I don't think this means what you think it means. In the West, women are in no way second class citizens by any legal or objective standards. In places like Saudia Arabia and Iran, they most certainly are. In those countries, specific laws exist that limit the freedom and rights of women. That is not the case in the West.
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It's also important to recognize that as far as I know, that situation is improving. It wasn't too many years ago that the number was something closer to 50%, so if we're really down to a 15% disparity, that's significant progress. True parity would be ideal of course (people paid for the work they did regardless of their gender), but as long as that gap continues to close at a reasonable rate I don't think it's exactly a strong argument on how poorly women are treated by "the west".
There is definitely room for improvement. Tons of it. Especially while the GOP has reproductive rights (abortion) and birth control in its sights. But I imagine all things considered, I'd rather be a woman in a "Western" country than one in an "Eastern" country.
... but as a Heterosexual Caucasian Male that might just be my overwhelming levels of bias, privledge and ignorance showing. >.>
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
It's also important to recognize that as far as I know, that situation is improving. It wasn't too many years ago that the number was something closer to 50%, so if we're really down to a 15% disparity, that's significant progress. True parity would be ideal of course (people paid for the work they did regardless of their gender), but as long as that gap continues to close at a reasonable rate I don't think it's exactly a strong argument on how poorly women are treated by "the west".
There is definitely room for improvement. Tons of it. Especially while the GOP has reproductive rights (abortion) and birth control in its sights. But I imagine all things considered, I'd rather be a woman in a "Western" country than one in an "Eastern" country.
... but as a Heterosexual Caucasian Male that might just be my overwhelming levels of bias, privledge and ignorance showing. >.>
I'm pretty sure that a smaller percentage of "western" women would want to live in an "eastern" one while a larger percentage of "eastern" women would want to live in a "western" one.
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And according to the 2006 Canadian census:
So, I'm not seeing any evidence that Canadian women are disadvantaged when it comes to education
What an odd argument. What does Canadian womens' love of fashion have to do with rights? Furthermore, what percentage of Iranian and Pakistani women have a college degree?
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On topic though, As long as there isn't an Opt-out option for woman, I'd say western woman has it better. It don't matter how awesome your dogma is, if it plane asks you to not view outside sources and tells you that it will punish none adherence right now on earth, then its an oppressive dogma.
Where are you from?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Nobody's really said that though. Everyone's recognized that the Islamic world is massive, diverse one. What annoyed most people was the video complained about the Western World, used shitty statistics, then ignored the far, far larger problems a lot of the Islamic world has regarding women's rights compared to any Western one.
Edit: And this still doesn't demonstrate how women's rights in Canada are less than those in I'm assuming Turkmenistan.
True, so let me rephrase, any country that says "we will rule by Islamic law" will have far less rights for woman then to man.
...umm, universal education has existed in Canada since the 19th century. In fact, it's compulsory.
Understand you are arguing with a true believer here. He drank the Manic Mango Mohammad Koolaid, by the tank.
Hunh, strange.
I don't actually see anything in your post that criticizes a lack of rights for women, so much as criticizing women for being wrong about how they choose to exercise the rights they have.
I mean, congrats on your tribe being dedicated to education. So is mine! Very proud parents really excited I'm going for a PhD. But I don't really see where that comes into play in this discussion. Because it's not really a "right" to be a dedicated proponent of something.
Edit: Oh! Haha, and yeah I forgot, Canada has universal compulsory education, and post-secondary is deeply discounted and highly encouraged. In fact, almost every Canadian attends University.
While its hard for anyone to consider me a good Muslim, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make fun of a symbol of my people's faith.
How does the timeframe of equality in your country have any bearing on the timeframe of Canadian women's rights?
also how does "some women decide not to further their education" equate to "women don't have the right to further their education?"
Also, what is wrong with pursuing fashion? I've had many friends (female and male alike) who have sought to further their education in fashion design, multimedia design, and architecture design. All three of those fields essentially boil down to dressing something up in fashion, whether it's clothing, software, or buildings.
Just a few of the things I liked while I was in University are video games, playing guitar, and binge drinking; all of which I was able to do enjoy while simultaneously completing my Bachelor's degree. Does having hobbies outside of school work somehow invalidate my education? I know that if I didn't have my hobbies and social life then I would not have completed my degree. In the same way, I can appreciate that many of the women who enjoyed shopping for clothes and talking gossip with their friends enjoyed those activities in the exact same way as I did my activities. Are you the judge of what hobbies other students should be allowed to have? Surely you had things you did in your free time outside of school work, yes?
The two cases of women's rights you've elucidated are not only extremely poor examples for your argument, but I find them troubling signs of what could either be your culture's idea that women somehow need protection or your own personal bias against western women pursuing education.
I'm curious, what is the minimum standard of education within your tribe? The public schooling system in Canada is supposed to prepare all students (male or female) with the pre-requisite information required to pursue any post secondary discipline as well as able to perform many entry level positions in a variety of industries. Whether the public system realistically meets those goals is a whole other discussion.
I'm not sure how anybody could seriously attempt to argue that Iran is not a theocracy. It's a textbook theocracy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
If he's from Iran (as it sounds like he is), the standard for high school education is actually quite high. Generally topics covered in the last two years of high school in Iran are taught in the 1st or 2nd year of university in the Canada and US. Where Iran falls behind is post-graduate education (masters/phd degrees).
That aside, I agree that it is somewhat amusing that he uses examples of women choosing how to live their lives to support an argument that they're not truly free.
You're confusing human rights with personal preference and personal income.
Unless Canada forces these women to enroll in such courses and purposefully docs their income so they cannot go to college you have no ground to stand on.
Eh senior topics in highschool that I had I'm not getting until third year of college, but then again I was taking Cisco Networking in 9th grade (for all the good it did me). It's impossible to quantify America's educational system, let alone the wests with simple statistics.
The same is almost certainly true for Iran, unless they're completely free of social stratification which I find unlikely. I find it possible that Iran has a more uniform educational system than America, but I would bet dollars to donuts that facts and fundamental scientific truths are ignored wholesale, as in the more fundamentalist parts of the United States. The Koran probably doesn't take super kindly to homosexuals and the facts of evolution.
I think saying that women wasting their parents money on fashion shows that we "treat women worse" indicates a fundamental societal difference. I would say that if women didn't have the right to spend money on whatever they wanted, that would be mistreating them. A guy can go blow all his money on fast cars if he wants, should the women of society get together and stop him for his own good?
Edit: One thing I will give Iran, an Iranian highschool graduate probably knows a hell of a lot more about American foreign policy re:the middle east and north africa than an American student does. Nationalism kind of gets in the way of telling an honest history of our misdeeds in the region.
For all their sins though, access for women to higher education is not one of them. More women go to college than men.
I wonder if they ever study their own empires as examples of imperialism or general badness.
But history gets weird around world war 1, thats when the good guys and bad guys stop being obvious.
Well, its hard to say that emipres are bad when your country is a kingdom :P
So no, we never even argue on that.
Hey the British manage it
So this Motahhari guy - are his views outdated in the Middle East? Was he a kook on the fringe or do modern Iranian men still get the heebie jeebies when it comes to gender equality? That the video in the OP even exists gives me clues to the answer but I can't read Iran's mood.
In the east, women are second class citizens who might be be stoned thanks to archaic laws being essentially copy and pasted into an otherwise fairly modern society.
In the west, women are second class citizens who make 15% less cash money than men for the same work.
Now I am totally scratching the surface here, but I think we have a long way to go before we can truly be a great example for how to treat women. The video in the OP is just yet another (in my opinion) tasteless attempt in defense of a society that feels threatened by what they consider dangerous ideas- such as women being equals or being able to elect your leaders instead of them being hand chosen by God.
First off, you can go and visit Iran. You can don't do so from the US, but you can get a connecting flight in Germany. The second you land in a city airport like Tehran, you'll walk by some bearded dudes and then a group of Iranian college kids with Prada glasses, Armani Xchange teeshirts, and Reboks. The Iranian men in power obviously don't want to rock the boat and have women in their exclusive club, but the men and boys on the streets, particularly the younger demographic (which Iran is actually a very young country when it comes to average age than compared to the US), have surprising ideas of how the world should work. Namely voting for your represented officials and yes, they show interest in women's rights. You will not see protests because they are currently busy protesting for their own freedom from an oppressive government.
but you could also just ask people who are better informed via the internet.
Can I see an example of women being paid 15% less for an identical job? Whenever I investigate this, it always turns out to be things like women congregating in the less well paid areas of specialisations (the example I looked at was medicine). If they were, say, brain surgeons, they were not earning less than an equivalently qualified brain surgeon at the same stage in his career - but if you compared surgeons as a block they would be clustered in the less well paid areas.
A worrying notion, I know.
Being middle eastern myself, (Assyrian) and simply knowing the type of people who live there, who have lived there and have moved to this country, and hearing what it actually is like as opposed to the stock footage reels the western media plays of angry men protesting and throwing molotov cocktails/stones, I gotta say that unless you truly know what it's like over there, you don't truly know what it's like over there.
I have never been, but from family that has recently made the move, from friends who have had families and villages taken away from them, and from some of them- have fought for defending their homes, I'll go ahead and take their word as a citizen of the country rather than some UN report or some bullshit CNN headline.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooo.
At least women aren't invited to hotel rooms while in elevators.
*ducks*
Going by wiki that one is very legitimate. I'm still not sure of the full strength claim though.
Rigorous Scholarship
There is definitely room for improvement. Tons of it. Especially while the GOP has reproductive rights (abortion) and birth control in its sights. But I imagine all things considered, I'd rather be a woman in a "Western" country than one in an "Eastern" country.
... but as a Heterosexual Caucasian Male that might just be my overwhelming levels of bias, privledge and ignorance showing. >.>
I'm pretty sure that a smaller percentage of "western" women would want to live in an "eastern" one while a larger percentage of "eastern" women would want to live in a "western" one.
/clap