If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.
Even then, it still reliant on specifics of the Muslim faith. I agree that many of the specifics are shared by Christianity and others, but a theocracy based around a hypothetical matriarchal religion wouldn't have the same problems (it would have other problems). A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.
Look at Tibet under the Llamas. They were basically as horrible as most other Theocracies.
A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
There's a fair bit of sexism in Buddhist scripture that gets glossed over by Westerners. If you look at pre-PRC Tibet, women did not attain positions of clergical or civil leadership. Some Buddhist traditions don't ordain women at all; most of those that do will ordain them only in a subordinate position to monks. And there is plenty of fear and shame applied to female sexuality; Buddhism is no stranger to the concept of the sexual woman as a temptress, a corrupting influence.
I guess not really relevant to misogyny, but since we're knocking on Buddhism, I recall learning it had a pretty awful caste system in Tibet. No idea if it's true, but it sounded fantastically oppressive.
Did...did you honestly post this?
This is a joke, right?
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
Generalizations about Buddhism fall prey to the same pitfalls as generalizations about any huge group, especially given that it's, y'know, the largest religion in the world.
No religion, not even Buddhism, magically makes people stop being assholes.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
Eh, I find it kind of creepy, but I don't see any evidence to be concerned about it as a social practice.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.
AFAIK the only non-Muslim theocracy at the moment is the Vatican.
A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
There's a fair bit of sexism in Buddhist scripture that gets glossed over by Westerners. If you look at pre-PRC Tibet, women did not attain positions of clergical or civil leadership. Some Buddhist traditions don't ordain women at all; most of those that do will ordain them only in a subordinate position to monks. And there is plenty of fear and shame applied to female sexuality; Buddhism is no stranger to the concept of the sexual woman as a temptress, a corrupting influence.
I guess not really relevant to misogyny, but since we're knocking on Buddhism, I recall learning it had a pretty awful caste system in Tibet. No idea if it's true, but it sounded fantastically oppressive.
Did...did you honestly post this?
This is a joke, right?
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
I was more laughing at how the video seems to act like this is a common thing that always happens or that the women didn't willingly apply for a job at the place and probably knew full well this would happen.
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
Eh, I find it kind of creepy, but I don't see any evidence to be concerned about it as a social practice.
Wouldn't any type of enforced caste system be a poor social practice to be concerned about, though? The notion that due to X you're bound to Y or face some form of repercussion. If the caste system is still a thing, it should most certainly be treated as a bad thing, no matter how the castes are decided.
If there's a reason that a caste system isn't a weird and silly thing, I'd be interested in hearing it. As it stands, they remain weird and silly to me.
I was more laughing at how the video seems to act like this is a common thing that always happens or that the women didn't willingly apply for a job at the place and probably knew full well this would happen.
Even bothering to mention it as a thing certainly suggests they believe or are attempting to suggest it happens in every household or restaurant. Probably hoping it brings up some weird image of a woman in some sort stance, under threat the entire time.
Were those caps from the video itself or something related to the video? I didn't bother watching it, because I figured the dissection of it from others would make it a redundant act. Why watch it when I can get the points and laughs from other people's posts?
the muslim world to most people is the middle east which is for the most part made up of 3rd world countries. women generally do not fare that well in 3rd world countries with high rates of poverty, muslim or not.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
edited July 2011
Dude, I would try to get invited to dinner SO MUCH if it was served on the ladies naked body.
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
Eh, I find it kind of creepy, but I don't see any evidence to be concerned about it as a social practice.
A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
There's a fair bit of sexism in Buddhist scripture that gets glossed over by Westerners. If you look at pre-PRC Tibet, women did not attain positions of clergical or civil leadership. Some Buddhist traditions don't ordain women at all; most of those that do will ordain them only in a subordinate position to monks. And there is plenty of fear and shame applied to female sexuality; Buddhism is no stranger to the concept of the sexual woman as a temptress, a corrupting influence.
Good to know. As to the caste system thing, that would be oppression in my book, but not gender based, though I guess this is all topic drift anyway.
If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.
AFAIK the only non-Muslim theocracy at the moment is the Vatican.
Generalizations about Buddhism fall prey to the same pitfalls as generalizations about any huge group, especially given that it's, y'know, the largest religion in the world.
No religion, not even Buddhism, magically makes people stop being assholes.
Buddhism is far from the largest religion in the world. Christianity holds that title pretty firmly. Even if you get very liberal and assume absolutely every single Chinese person is Buddhist, you still fall 500 million short of Christianity.
Neither do I. Lebanon and Indonesia, for two more examples, are doing pretty good as well. In 50 years the OECD is going to look a hell of a lot different.
Just a quick point, Lebanon had a Christian majority until fairly recently (50 years ago or so). The split's still somewhere between 50/50 and 60/40, depending on whose study you're looking at, and they've historically held themselves apart from whatever the hell "The Muslim World" is.
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HeatwaveCome, now, and walk the path of explosions with me!Registered Userregular
acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited July 2011
Is anyone really surprised by the fact that it would be pretty easy to find women in defense of the Islamic treatment of women from within a culture where some combination of battered person syndrome and Stockholm syndrome is pretty much the norm?
Let's say the person who has legal ownership of me decides to punish me whenever I express my discontent by beating me with a sack of hammers. Am I going to:
a) express my discontent and subsequently get beaten with a sack of hammers, or
b) not express my discontent and pray to God the next arbitrary sack of hammers beating has been delayed for at least one more day?
Also if the men in a society are liable to rape any/every woman they set eyes upon then is it a fault of the woman or is it a fault of the society?
protip: If the answer to either of those questions is correct, then this guy has some sage advice for us all:
It's not like this practice is in any way common. In a lot of places, it probably violates health codes. It's very much a niche thing. I've lived in a number of big, liberal cities and I've only seen this in one place, and it wasn't a public event.
The general message of the video in the OP seems to be that giving women freedom can lead to some bad consequences. Well, duh. Freedom to make choices always comes with the risk that a person will make a bad decision. I imagine most women would prefer to have the option of making a bad decision on their own rather than being reduced to the status of chattel.
And the thing is that women in the west can choose to dress modestly, hold off on sex until marriage, be subservient to their husband and generally live their lives in a religiously conservative manner. Look at the Amish. It's not like Western society forces women to live a Girls Gone Wild lifestyle.
Modern Man on
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It's not like this practice is in any way common. In a lot of places, it probably violates health codes. It's very much a niche thing. I've lived in a number of big, liberal cities and I've only seen this in one place, and it wasn't a public event.
The general message of the video in the OP seems to be that giving women freedom can lead to some bad consequences. Well, duh. Freedom to make choices always comes with the risk that a person will make a bad decision. I imagine most women would prefer to have the option of making a bad decision on their own rather than being reduced to the status of chattel.
And the thing is that women in the west can choose to dress modestly, hold off on sex until marriage, be subservient to their husband and generally live their lives in a religiously conservative manner. Look at the Amish. It's not like Western society forces women to live a Girls Gone Wild lifestyle.
but... but... but... if you give them uppity womenfolk the freedom to choose how the hell am I supposed to get them to choose being my personal property? You mean, I have to actually show respect, love, and kindness to my potential future mates? BLASPHEMY!
It's very much a niche thing. I've lived in a number of big, liberal cities and I've only seen this in one place, and it wasn't a public event.
There have been a number of regular, public, advertised events in DC.
What I meant was, it's something you kind of have to actively seek out. You're not going to walk into Ruth's Chris on a Thursday night and be offered the option of eating your steak off of one of the waitresses.
It's just an odd thing to focus on as something that is an indictment of the West's treatment of women.
Modern Man on
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I'm fairly certain most women in the western world would gladly undertake the sacrifice of possible danger to their health in varying ways in order to have more personal freedoms and liberty.
I mean, a well kept slave may enjoy more safety and health benefits than the struggling but relatively free individual.
It's very much a niche thing. I've lived in a number of big, liberal cities and I've only seen this in one place, and it wasn't a public event.
There have been a number of regular, public, advertised events in DC.
S2:E2 of MasterCHef had one person attempt to get through the qualifying round by serving body sushi from a naked woman, who disrobed in front of the judges. His sushi didn't impress Ramsey, and they criticized him for trying to hide his food quality with unique presentation. He didn't advance.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
It's very much a niche thing. I've lived in a number of big, liberal cities and I've only seen this in one place, and it wasn't a public event.
There have been a number of regular, public, advertised events in DC.
S2:E2 of MasterCHef had one person attempt to get through the qualifying round by serving body sushi from a naked woman, who disrobed in front of the judges. His sushi didn't impress Ramsey, and they criticized him for trying to hide his food quality with unique presentation. He didn't advance.
as the serving plate, I'd be extremely concerned about getting wasabi and/or soy sauce in inconvenient places. . .
To me this video basically takes the stance of: When you give women the freedom to choose then bad things happen. So, by not giving them the ability to choose they are protecting women from themselves, and that's better. It's based off the belief that women aren't capable of making descisions for themselves.
The whole thing is a logical falacy.
Like mentioned above by someone, women in the US totally have the option of living a lifestyle exactly like the one the video describes for "The Islamic World" if they so choose.
Perhaps the woman working as a naked buffet table in a body sushi restaurant ENJOYS her job. Perhaps she doesn't care either way, but the job offers more money then she could make otherwise and therefore provides a higher level of living for herself and her children. This is a bad thing?
I guess freedom is bad.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
To me this video basically takes the stance of: When you give women the freedom to choose then bad things happen. So, by not giving them the ability to choose they are protecting women from themselves, and that's better. It's based off the belief that women aren't capable of making descisions for themselves.
The whole thing is a logical falacy.
Like mentioned above by someone, women in the US totally have the option of living a lifestyle exactly like the one the video describes for "The Islamic World" if they so choose.
Perhaps the woman working as a naked buffet table in a body sushi restaurant ENJOYS her job. Perhaps she doesn't care either way, but the job offers more money then she could make otherwise and therefore provides a higher level of living for herself and her children. This is a bad thing?
I guess freedom is bad.
Nail-head, meet Hammer. Hammer, meet Nail-head.
To be fair to their argument though I think most people are incapable of making good decisions at all; why bother with the distinction between race/sex/class/age?
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
Intriguing!
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
I'm assuming this is a joke?
Modern Man on
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"There aren't many cases of domestic assault when it's legal to beat your wife."
I was going to go for some tasteless "there's an awful lot of acid throwing into faces going on in the muslim world according to what I read" style joke, but this is far more succinct.
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
I'm assuming this is a joke?
No, he's serious.
His views expressed in the Canadian Politics thread have been... interesting.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
This is the same for men. So... not really a right women are being uniquely denied. In fact, women are actually slightly more likely to go to college.
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
Meanwhile the guys are only interested in chasing women and keggers, right?
I dont see an issue with this video. Yes maybe their data is wrong on somepoints but from my own experencies coming to Canada for university I find rights for women better in my own Turkoman tribe and others than what I see here.
Intriguing!
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
For one equal education does not exist. I have the same rights to education as women in Islam (at least the version we follow) while here some women do not further their own education. They are deprived due to monetary funds while we pool of resources to send everyone to further their minds.
Secondly the female students do not seem to be interested in studies just in fashion. Which is quite the waste of money if they are being paid by their parents. This is not so in my tribe as everyone is dedicated to education. This is what ive seen at least. Of course Canadians may have different views than mine but im just a visitor and hopefully will go back to either Iran or Pakistan as a professor.
What the fuck does women enjoying fashion have to do with how well women are treated?
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Look at Tibet under the Llamas. They were basically as horrible as most other Theocracies.
I guess not really relevant to misogyny, but since we're knocking on Buddhism, I recall learning it had a pretty awful caste system in Tibet. No idea if it's true, but it sounded fantastically oppressive.
There are actually restaurants where that's a thing, women lie on a table and then the food is placed on them. I mean... it's kind of meaningless? I'm willing to bet there are also places where you can eat off men.
Women aren't forced into taking those jobs, so it's hardly mistreatment. Objectifying but not out-and-out mistreatment.
No religion, not even Buddhism, magically makes people stop being assholes.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Eh, I find it kind of creepy, but I don't see any evidence to be concerned about it as a social practice.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
AFAIK the only non-Muslim theocracy at the moment is the Vatican.
I was more laughing at how the video seems to act like this is a common thing that always happens or that the women didn't willingly apply for a job at the place and probably knew full well this would happen.
Wouldn't any type of enforced caste system be a poor social practice to be concerned about, though? The notion that due to X you're bound to Y or face some form of repercussion. If the caste system is still a thing, it should most certainly be treated as a bad thing, no matter how the castes are decided.
If there's a reason that a caste system isn't a weird and silly thing, I'd be interested in hearing it. As it stands, they remain weird and silly to me.
Even bothering to mention it as a thing certainly suggests they believe or are attempting to suggest it happens in every household or restaurant. Probably hoping it brings up some weird image of a woman in some sort stance, under threat the entire time.
Were those caps from the video itself or something related to the video? I didn't bother watching it, because I figured the dissection of it from others would make it a redundant act. Why watch it when I can get the points and laughs from other people's posts?
Well, in some cases, anyhow.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
Unless it gets adopted by Denny's, of course.
Good to know. As to the caste system thing, that would be oppression in my book, but not gender based, though I guess this is all topic drift anyway.
Also, Kansas.
Buddhism is far from the largest religion in the world. Christianity holds that title pretty firmly. Even if you get very liberal and assume absolutely every single Chinese person is Buddhist, you still fall 500 million short of Christianity.
Just a quick point, Lebanon had a Christian majority until fairly recently (50 years ago or so). The split's still somewhere between 50/50 and 60/40, depending on whose study you're looking at, and they've historically held themselves apart from whatever the hell "The Muslim World" is.
"That can not be. Our tables are waxed."
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
Let's say the person who has legal ownership of me decides to punish me whenever I express my discontent by beating me with a sack of hammers. Am I going to:
a) express my discontent and subsequently get beaten with a sack of hammers, or
b) not express my discontent and pray to God the next arbitrary sack of hammers beating has been delayed for at least one more day?
Also if the men in a society are liable to rape any/every woman they set eyes upon then is it a fault of the woman or is it a fault of the society?
protip: If the answer to either of those questions is correct, then this guy has some sage advice for us all:
Winner.
Where the hell are there restaurants where you eat off naked people?
Do a google search for "Body sushi". Not a Google Image Search if you're at work or otherwise public place.
The Wikipedia article is surprisingly SFW, if you want additional information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyotaimori
The general message of the video in the OP seems to be that giving women freedom can lead to some bad consequences. Well, duh. Freedom to make choices always comes with the risk that a person will make a bad decision. I imagine most women would prefer to have the option of making a bad decision on their own rather than being reduced to the status of chattel.
And the thing is that women in the west can choose to dress modestly, hold off on sex until marriage, be subservient to their husband and generally live their lives in a religiously conservative manner. Look at the Amish. It's not like Western society forces women to live a Girls Gone Wild lifestyle.
Rigorous Scholarship
There have been a number of regular, public, advertised events in DC.
but... but... but... if you give them uppity womenfolk the freedom to choose how the hell am I supposed to get them to choose being my personal property? You mean, I have to actually show respect, love, and kindness to my potential future mates? BLASPHEMY!
It's just an odd thing to focus on as something that is an indictment of the West's treatment of women.
Rigorous Scholarship
Though it doesn't mean that there aren't Islamic countries where women are treated well...
Also this.
S2:E2 of MasterCHef had one person attempt to get through the qualifying round by serving body sushi from a naked woman, who disrobed in front of the judges. His sushi didn't impress Ramsey, and they criticized him for trying to hide his food quality with unique presentation. He didn't advance.
as the serving plate, I'd be extremely concerned about getting wasabi and/or soy sauce in inconvenient places. . .
The whole thing is a logical falacy.
Like mentioned above by someone, women in the US totally have the option of living a lifestyle exactly like the one the video describes for "The Islamic World" if they so choose.
Perhaps the woman working as a naked buffet table in a body sushi restaurant ENJOYS her job. Perhaps she doesn't care either way, but the job offers more money then she could make otherwise and therefore provides a higher level of living for herself and her children. This is a bad thing?
I guess freedom is bad.
Nail-head, meet Hammer. Hammer, meet Nail-head.
To be fair to their argument though I think most people are incapable of making good decisions at all; why bother with the distinction between race/sex/class/age?
Anywhere where people are rich enough there will be the opportunity to treat human beings as objects.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
Can you elaborate? Canada seemed for the most part a nice place to be a lady. Lots of ladies seemed to be having a nice time there while I was at University.
My native Rhode Island had few restrictions on women beyond 'everyone needs to maintain annoying at pretty high levels, you too ladies'.
Rigorous Scholarship
I mean Canadians probably can't ride bikes naked through the street like they can in Seattle, but aside from that....
I was going to go for some tasteless "there's an awful lot of acid throwing into faces going on in the muslim world according to what I read" style joke, but this is far more succinct.
No, he's serious.
His views expressed in the Canadian Politics thread have been... interesting.
Meanwhile the guys are only interested in chasing women and keggers, right?
What the fuck does women enjoying fashion have to do with how well women are treated?