Sticking within the tier list and keeping your jack choices, I'd go with this instead:
Points: 35/35
Tiers: 4
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
* 1 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeer (1pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Sticking fortune on the Winter Guard will help boost accuracy, and their sprays are good against infantry through sheer weight of fire. Combined with your AoEs you should be able to clear out a huge amount of infantry.
High defense can be an issue, but you've got answers. Slam one of your own jacks over the caster - you only have to hit the target, not things it travels over. You can also run some winter guard close to the enemy caster, and target boostable AoE attacks against them. Boost the blast damage on the caster. Most high def casters have low armor when they aren't camping.
Black Ivan is pretty accurate with Harkevicth too, he's got a decent chance of hitting a caster just with his auto-boosted attack roll.
Edit: you could downgrade one of the mortars to a field gun, and run this:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew (Leader and 2 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
With Kovnik Joe, your accuracy problems will really disappear.
Thanks for the feedback, Kaorti. The biggest reason I'm not running WG with Harkevich is because he doesn't have Iron Flesh. Because I have Joe in my other list, I don't have the option to give them tough. And fortune just isn't as good as Joe's to-hit boost, as they are only RAT 5. With Joe, they realiably hit 16, with fortune they reliably hit 13-14.
Another reason I like the MoWST over the WGI is that the stuff most armies bring to deal with high defense isn't generally good against high armor, and it continues the high armor theme. AOE's hitting one model for 16 and the others for 8 are only about an even shot to kill a MoW if shield wall isn't up.
I need to be careful to keep Harky from getting too close to them, though, as I don't want him to take a knockdown or other effect type ae.
You're certainly making valid choices. If you're focusing this list on really high armor, you're going to build some weaknesses into your list. As long as you've covered for them in your other list, you should do ok. High damage infantry like Nyss Swordsmen, Nyss Hunters, Bloodtrackers, and Dawnguard Sentinels will give that list issues though. So will lists with push and pull effects - druids and battlemages can keep your shock troops away almost indefinitely.
In scenario play you'll also have to worry about the general slowness of your list. You need to be able to get up the field quickly to stake out territory.
Regarding your earlier rules question: If a movement penalty is affecting a model, they can't charge, even if they have movement bonuses greater than or equal to the penalty.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
WGRC might not be a bad choice then. Still good with Fortune, and they need Joe much less, but they give you bodies on the table much more so than MoW. But MoW are decent too, I suppose.
Thanks for the feedback, Kaorti. The biggest reason I'm not running WG with Harkevich is because he doesn't have Iron Flesh. Because I have Joe in my other list, I don't have the option to give them tough. And fortune just isn't as good as Joe's to-hit boost, as they are only RAT 5. With Joe, they realiably hit 16, with fortune they reliably hit 13-14.
Another reason I like the MoWST over the WGI is that the stuff most armies bring to deal with high defense isn't generally good against high armor, and it continues the high armor theme. AOE's hitting one model for 16 and the others for 8 are only about an even shot to kill a MoW if shield wall isn't up.
I need to be careful to keep Harky from getting too close to them, though, as I don't want him to take a knockdown or other effect type ae.
All valid points, and this is a very, very solid list with frightening staying and hitting power, though I would like to make one more point about a possible issue with the list and another push to swap the MoWST for the WGI+UA (or WGRC if you have them) & a 1pt Wardog: With Harkevich, a good Shocktrooper screen is 1/3 the speed of the jacks that they were screening. Shocktroopers can't run and Shield Wall, meaning their mobile screen is going to be moving 4" a turn, while Escorted 'Jacks have a bast speed of 6", or 12" on a run which they ought be doing the first turn or two. Nothing you've said about the Shocktroopers vs the Infantry has been wrong in regards to survivability and hitting power, but in a game where mobility and threat vectors are just so important to winning and contesting scenarios, I'd like to ask you to at least try the Infantry/Riflecorps and see how they compare.
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
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General NemoThe Mighty ShameChurch for DogsRegistered Userregular
So, uh, War Room in a day or two possibly maybe? Got me an iPad mostly just for this.
I have to say, I'm honestly confused by all the hype surrounding War Room.
It may well be a neat to have all your cards in your hand, but unless certain aspects are more... robust than what has been described it just doesn't sound like a product I need to spend money on while free alternatives are available.
If the list builder is up to par, and the damage/effects trackers aren't as cumbersome as products I've used in the past we'll see. But I haven't seen anything to justify (to my mind) all the baited breath and iWidget purchasing.
There is much derp, it is true. But there are some decent posters too. The scant handful I've met in person weren't horrible human beings. Except that one guy. But I didn't like him from his posts already, so there's that.
The PP boards in general suck a great deal at the tail end of the release cycles. Once people start making up rumors and then flipping out about the shit they just made up I take a walk. I'm down to checking on things every third day or so, because I can't help hoping for new spoilers/leaks.
The Cygnar forums are an embarrassment, but they do have a really good set of tactical articles put together by the rare good posters. It's a shame they're attached to so may awful, awful threads. The MoM guys do a nice podcast, and they probably shouldn't try to engage with the whiners.
I'm sad that the forums have given Cygnar a reputation for whining. We've got a few legitimate complaints, but we've got plenty of awesome stuff too.
Yeah I've been seeing a lot of doom and gloom on the forum, honestly I'm mostly ignoring it except when I see collaboration on points from a wide range.
I just thought it was amusing that the guys who were saying "Cygnar is fine, L2P" were trumpeting a win where the guy brought what was basically a Highbourne Covenant list with a Cygnar battlegroup.
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General NemoThe Mighty ShameChurch for DogsRegistered Userregular
Not everyone has Winterguard or Bane Thralls. Stop whining, internet.
I'm actually hugely grateful for the merc synergy Cygnar has. But then I also play Ret and now Khador. God do I wish Khador played as well with mercenaries as Cygnar does.
Ugh. And now I'm in the mix arguing with the MoM guys. The thing is, I hate the whiners as much as they do, I just don't like them either.
God do I wish Khador played as well with mercenaries as Cygnar does.
Valachev...
No joke. I'm loving the hell out of Valachev and Croes. But thats one unit, and one list in SR. Cygnar does it so much better, and that gives me faction envy for my own models.
Mercenaries are sort of what Cygnar does. Saying "it dosen't count if you use a bunch of mercs" is sort of like saying that Menoth cant use the choir.
See, I'm looking at using mercs myself in my lists, and using them doesn't bug me at all. Personally I would rather try to fit faction models in where possible, but meh, I already bought Reinholdt, and Gorman and A & H are on my future purchase lists.
No one wants to buy my ret? I will be willing to strip them down if people are interested in stripped models...
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
After a couple weeks in Bartertown, I've managed to sell off.... None of my remaining Circle. Instead, hilariously enough, I did sell my Ogrun and trencher cannon.
If anyone wants to know what I got left for Circle, lemme know. This includes a nicely painted Woldwyrd, Cassius & Tree, and Warpwolf Stalker.
I was playing a game a while ago where I tagged Makeda with Gorman on turn two. I managed to keep him alive and throwing blind bombs on her for four more turns before I ground through his models and assassinated her.
I enjoy the fact that Cygnar works so well with Mercs, I just wish that things like Trenchers and Stormnoun infantry weren't in a position that made me feel like I needed mercs in every list (partially this is because the two most important merc units are characters). And that's not a complaint, not really, because I genuinely don't mind using mercs. Everyone's got some bad eggs, it just happens that ours happen to mostly be in the infantry department. But oh well, I got into this game for the giant robots, and Cygnar has some solid as hell giant robots.
Generally speaking though I think most people would be okay with certain mercs (or some Minion pieces, too? it's really not the same kind of relationship) being toned down just a smidge in exchange for some of their in-faction pieces being a bit better, but that applies to every faction, not just Cygnar.
I'd be entirely OK with mercs being toned down to make my in-faction pieces better.
Also, oi'. Played two 50 pointers this evening, eFeora v. pIrusk and pKreoss v. eHaley, squeaked out wins on both of 'em, but they were both very long, very hard fought, good games. Felt like I fought back from being down in both games, but I suppose that's often the name of the game with Protectorate.
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
I'm trying to figure out what to do with the kraken. It's a good design. It looks clean, it looks like a cryx model, but it's just a tiny bit underwhelming "stock"...doesn't feel like a centerpiece to me. So I'm thinking I'm going to have to do something interesting with the big, blank plate on the front. I know there is an insect I saw on the discovery channel that carries dead insects on it ... I'm thinking of turning it into a more graphic "harvester" in that sense.
Has PP come out with any boxes of plastic infantry lately that would be ideal for this? The last time I bought a unit of thralls it was still an all metal game for the small bases.
Speaking of Cygnar misinformation... Quick question.
Does the hunter benefit from double range during Sloans feat?
The hunters info says no, but I was told there was an errata... Without being shown a link...
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Speaking of Cygnar misinformation... Quick question.
Does the hunter benefit from double range during Sloans feat?
The hunters info says no, but I was told there was an errata... Without being shown a link...
Yes. All Extended Control Range rules were errated to read
When checking to see if this model is in its controller’s control area, double the area.
So cool, Thanks!
Im playing a 15pt game vs what i can safely assume will be a Khador list with Beast09. Was hoping to take him with Sloan, 2 hunters and a defender. Last time i met him he got into melee with my gunmages. I did not win.
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
I thought Cygnar people liked Trencher Commandos
Do not have a cow, mortal.
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
Trencher commandos are INDEED awesome. Trencher Infantry blows.
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
That much I already knew about Trencher Infantry
What's the other unit of mercs that SJ is referring to? Eiryss, Aiyana & Holt? (I know the first is clearly Nyss Hunters)
Do not have a cow, mortal.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Since he was talking about units I would assume Boomhowler's.
A&H are technically a unit but I think most people think of them as solos.
Posts
Points: 35/35
Tiers: 4
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
* 1 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeer (1pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Sticking fortune on the Winter Guard will help boost accuracy, and their sprays are good against infantry through sheer weight of fire. Combined with your AoEs you should be able to clear out a huge amount of infantry.
High defense can be an issue, but you've got answers. Slam one of your own jacks over the caster - you only have to hit the target, not things it travels over. You can also run some winter guard close to the enemy caster, and target boostable AoE attacks against them. Boost the blast damage on the caster. Most high def casters have low armor when they aren't camping.
Black Ivan is pretty accurate with Harkevicth too, he's got a decent chance of hitting a caster just with his auto-boosted attack roll.
Edit: you could downgrade one of the mortars to a field gun, and run this:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew (Leader and 2 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
With Kovnik Joe, your accuracy problems will really disappear.
Another reason I like the MoWST over the WGI is that the stuff most armies bring to deal with high defense isn't generally good against high armor, and it continues the high armor theme. AOE's hitting one model for 16 and the others for 8 are only about an even shot to kill a MoW if shield wall isn't up.
I need to be careful to keep Harky from getting too close to them, though, as I don't want him to take a knockdown or other effect type ae.
In scenario play you'll also have to worry about the general slowness of your list. You need to be able to get up the field quickly to stake out territory.
Regarding your earlier rules question: If a movement penalty is affecting a model, they can't charge, even if they have movement bonuses greater than or equal to the penalty.
All valid points, and this is a very, very solid list with frightening staying and hitting power, though I would like to make one more point about a possible issue with the list and another push to swap the MoWST for the WGI+UA (or WGRC if you have them) & a 1pt Wardog: With Harkevich, a good Shocktrooper screen is 1/3 the speed of the jacks that they were screening. Shocktroopers can't run and Shield Wall, meaning their mobile screen is going to be moving 4" a turn, while Escorted 'Jacks have a bast speed of 6", or 12" on a run which they ought be doing the first turn or two. Nothing you've said about the Shocktroopers vs the Infantry has been wrong in regards to survivability and hitting power, but in a game where mobility and threat vectors are just so important to winning and contesting scenarios, I'd like to ask you to at least try the Infantry/Riflecorps and see how they compare.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
We'll see. We'll see.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
It may well be a neat to have all your cards in your hand, but unless certain aspects are more... robust than what has been described it just doesn't sound like a product I need to spend money on while free alternatives are available.
If the list builder is up to par, and the damage/effects trackers aren't as cumbersome as products I've used in the past we'll see. But I haven't seen anything to justify (to my mind) all the baited breath and iWidget purchasing.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
The PP boards in general suck a great deal at the tail end of the release cycles. Once people start making up rumors and then flipping out about the shit they just made up I take a walk. I'm down to checking on things every third day or so, because I can't help hoping for new spoilers/leaks.
I'm sad that the forums have given Cygnar a reputation for whining. We've got a few legitimate complaints, but we've got plenty of awesome stuff too.
I just thought it was amusing that the guys who were saying "Cygnar is fine, L2P" were trumpeting a win where the guy brought what was basically a Highbourne Covenant list with a Cygnar battlegroup.
Ugh. And now I'm in the mix arguing with the MoM guys. The thing is, I hate the whiners as much as they do, I just don't like them either.
Valachev...
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
See, I'm looking at using mercs myself in my lists, and using them doesn't bug me at all. Personally I would rather try to fit faction models in where possible, but meh, I already bought Reinholdt, and Gorman and A & H are on my future purchase lists.
If anyone wants to know what I got left for Circle, lemme know. This includes a nicely painted Woldwyrd, Cassius & Tree, and Warpwolf Stalker.
Tired of slogging through forests? Think climbing hills is too hard? Call Saxon Orrik for all your Pathfinder needs.
If you absolutely, positively have to kill one model, Gorman De Wulf. Accept no substitutions.
Tired of seeing Cygnar running the Squire, and Cryx running a Skarlok? Then try new and improved Sylys. Now with "Zerkova-doesn't-suck"!
Generally speaking though I think most people would be okay with certain mercs (or some Minion pieces, too? it's really not the same kind of relationship) being toned down just a smidge in exchange for some of their in-faction pieces being a bit better, but that applies to every faction, not just Cygnar.
Also, oi'. Played two 50 pointers this evening, eFeora v. pIrusk and pKreoss v. eHaley, squeaked out wins on both of 'em, but they were both very long, very hard fought, good games. Felt like I fought back from being down in both games, but I suppose that's often the name of the game with Protectorate.
Has PP come out with any boxes of plastic infantry lately that would be ideal for this? The last time I bought a unit of thralls it was still an all metal game for the small bases.
I host a podcast about movies.
oooh yeah and crucifixion (eer...menofixion?) to it's hull would be a nice cryxy gesture.
I host a podcast about movies.
Does the hunter benefit from double range during Sloans feat?
The hunters info says no, but I was told there was an errata... Without being shown a link...
Yes. All Extended Control Range rules were errated to read
Current errata.
Im playing a 15pt game vs what i can safely assume will be a Khador list with Beast09. Was hoping to take him with Sloan, 2 hunters and a defender. Last time i met him he got into melee with my gunmages. I did not win.
What's the other unit of mercs that SJ is referring to? Eiryss, Aiyana & Holt? (I know the first is clearly Nyss Hunters)
A&H are technically a unit but I think most people think of them as solos.
Gotta ask, where did this come from? I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said that trencher commandos were anything but awesome.
Seriously. They make all the mans fall down. Supported by an accuracy buff, I've made several assassinations with them.