So, what exactly was Robb supposed to do differently? If you ask me, there was no clear path to victory on account of his relatively small army and lack of spies. I blame everything on Catelyn.
Properly guard the Kingslayer, don't marry someone else after committing to the Freys. Don't attempt to convince Baelon to join his side. Victory for Robb was really just getting the Lannister's to sue for peace and return Sansa. This could have been done with Walder's men and sieging Castely Rock. Hell, had they properly guarded Jamie, the Karstarks might have still have been marching with them. Cersei might have rejected his terms out of hand, but with Tywin in the city, and winter coming, he would be more open to a course of action that isn't "Piss on everything because I think I have all the power in the world."
Robb couldn't have predicted his mother would have been so stupid to release Jaimie.
Offering Baelon an alliance was sensible. The last time the ironborn rebelled they had their arses handed to them.
Walder should have offered passage without the need for a marriage pact. Robb is his king. A marriage to the heir of Riverrun is fair enough compensation.
Robb's main mistake was the same as Ned's. Underestimating the utterly stupid short term thinking of the people around him. Everyone who schemed against the Starks has gained power and influence but for how long? Once Tywin has gone who is going to stop the Tyrrels and Martells? Tyrion is in jail. Jaimie is a one handed sister rapist and Cersei is madder than a box of frogs. Tommen clearly has progeria.
There is a message here. The reason good people fail in life is because they don't realise just how stupid, illogical, irrational, greedy, selfish and inbred the people in power are.
Arya, Sansa, and Jon are learning the lesson: good is not nice.
Not knowing Catelyn would release Jaimie is certainly true enough, but he's one of the most valuable possible hostages, behind three other people(Joff, Tywin, Cersei, and he may even rank ahead of Cersei), and he has a single guard. Just a second could have stopped him from carrying out his original escape plan, meaning even if Lady Stark let him go, the Karstarks are still in the army, reducing the need for Frey's men.
The whole reason offering Baelon an alliance goes on the stupid list is simply because nobody except for Theon thought it was a good idea. If your entire council thinks "Maybe let's look for help elsewhere." Heed their advice.
Whether Edmure was fair compensation for Walder is irrelevant. Walder didn't care about being properly compensated for the slight. He cared about hurting the Starks, who had wronged him, and refused to see any attempts to pay for that wrong in anything other than blood as sufficient. He also received numerous warning to not give Frey reason to be angry with him, and ultimately ignored that, too.
Essentially, many of Robb's problems were self inflicted. Yes, his ultimate downfall and demise came at the hands of his enemies who took advantage of the situation, but it was a situation caused by Robb himself.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I can't help but think if Arya was in-charge instead of Robb. The Karstarks and Boltons would have gotten along with her much better. Freys probably not so much. Though I kinda suspect she wouldnt make a deal in the first place
"marry one of them."
"fuck that"
"it's the only way"
"fuck that shit. they will let us through or i will run them through"
This is y'know tactical stuff aside...and ,well, gender roles.
I'll note I'm not being completely serious in this regard and am exaggerating certain ruthless characteristics of Arya for the sake of this hypothetical
Arya would lay siege to the Twins and then have to get bailed out by some sort of Hound analogue because she's worth something as a hostage to be ransomed.
Arya would lay siege to the Twins and then have to get bailed out by some sort of Hound analogue because she's worth something as a hostage to be ransomed.
Arya would have gone to meet him herself and made it clear that either he lets her army through, or she will have to eat every fucking chicken in this room.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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simonwolfi can feel a differencetoday, a differenceRegistered Userregular
The Starks aren't dumb, they just have an outdated value system.
They have the most practical, sensible, logical, and rational value system.
Selfishness, incest, child murder, rape, backstabbing, framing your own family for murder, pushing children out of windows, raping your sister, marching to the aid of the king with a flag of friendship then sacking a city, conspiring to have a man murdered at a wedding etc are all modern and progressive ideas?
A spade is a spade. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's fair to hazard a guess that it is indeed a duck. People need shelter. People need food. People should mean what they say. Life is hard. We need to work together to get through it. Winter is coming.
The Starks represent old fashioned values but they also represent modern morality. The whole point of the Starks is to show how modern people would not be able to survive in a medieval world.
People like Ned, Robb, and Stannis are the ones with their heads screwed on straight. If it wasn't for all the idiots obsessed with scheming to get themselves access to more shiny things the world wouldn't be so messed up.
The Lannisters are there to show a sad truth about life. People will forgive any number of sins if you have charisma.
hold up on this
I am a fervent supporter of Stannis the Mannis, the One True King of Westeros
but let's be clear
the dude hasn't exactly got his head on straight, between the dualistic religion and the "listen your smuggling saved my life but I'm going to have to cut off yer fingers a bit because justice"
about the only thing he's doing right is Melisandre, if you know what I mean
I always love these scenes.
Because what really happens is that the people up on the battlements are all going,
"What's that lady saying? I can't hear her."
*shrugs*
hold up on this
I am a fervent supporter of Stannis the Mannis, the One True King of Westeros
but let's be clear
the dude hasn't exactly got his head on straight, between the dualistic religion
How is he incorrect on this point? Melisandre is demonstrably MAGICAL. There's basically two things anybody (atheist, old gods believer, whatever) would have to consider at that point.
1) Her belief system is completely true. Since the God of her beliefs is willing to work for his side if he does what she says, he should probably do what she says.
2) Her belief system is slightly or completely mistaken, but SHE has magical powers. She will use these powers for his side if he does what she says, he should probably do what she says.
Obviously, there's more details to consider. Like, can she be persuaded to occasionally soften her directives (this has been shown to work). If "the religion is true" angle is what you're going with, you'd have to worry over when she asked you to do something because SHE wanted it and not her God. Finally, you'd of course have to worry that the unspoken finale to the Lord of Light thing is that she burns you once you've beaten everybody else and she takes control. But from Stannis' perspective, following the old gods would seem very ridiculous indeed at this point.
So, what exactly was Robb supposed to do differently? If you ask me, there was no clear path to victory on account of his relatively small army and lack of spies. I blame everything on Catelyn.
Walder should have offered passage without the need for a marriage pact. Robb is his king.
Only if he wins. Otherwise he's a traitor to the crown, as are all those who support him. Frey was absolutely right to wring out the most painful concessions possible; he's taking a gigantic risk.
I always love these scenes.
Because what really happens is that the people up on the battlements are all going,
"What's that lady saying? I can't hear her."
*shrugs*
Actually afaik the general practice was for the people near the front who could hear to relay what was said to the people behind them, who would do the same and so on.
Speeches in front of huge crowds were giant games of broken telephone.
Besides what others have said, Robb's mistakes were also to kill the head of the Karstarks, and to negotiate with the Greyjoys by giving up his only Greyjoy hostage.
It might have been painful. It might have weakened his appearance as a strong leader and a just one. But with things as they were it was lunacy to kill the head of the Karstarks. Now is not the time to be just. You can be just when you've won, Robb.
The whole point of the child hostage scheme is that when as you declare war your sons and daughters are dead. It's generally presented nicer than that, but that is the point. Greyjoy may have despised his son, but he did value Theon's...capacity to carry on the line. Robb was right to try negotiating, his mistake was sending Theon to do it.
Thanks for your replies. It's giving me a lot to think about. Of course this thread moves so fast it isn't always easy to reply.
Has the show said how old Robb was supposed to be? In the... well... ok. Robb is supposed to be young. Teenager or early twenties. You are stupid and rash at that age. If Robb had lived to Ned's age you could see him being a force to be reckoned with. His failure was down to lack of experience. I think someone mentioned earlier how he arrogantly disregarded advice. Maybe there is a point to that. He did win every battle so in some ways was entitled to think he knew better. Though as Tywin will tell you in wars fighting is only half the battle.
Is there going to be a reveal that Talisa was indeed a spy? A stupid one who didn't realise that she was expendable? If that were the case it would be a real stab to the gut.
Considering where she is from, it wouldn't surprise me if it segue'd into her family supporting Stannis or Dany. Granted considering Dany's way of dealing with slavers, odds are she will just kill the parents...if they ever show up.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I always love these scenes.
Because what really happens is that the people up on the battlements are all going,
"What's that lady saying? I can't hear her."
*shrugs*
Actually afaik the general practice was for the people near the front who could hear to relay what was said to the people behind them, who would do the same and so on.
Speeches in front of huge crowds were giant games of broken telephone.
" 'Blessed are the cheesemakers', I think..."
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Not to nitpick, but Robb wasn't just King of "the North". House Tully and the rest of the Riverlands swore fealty to him as well. If you look at a map of Westeros, you can see why he wouldn't have been able to simply retreat home and hold off any potential invaders. Entire swaths of the Riverlands were already being razed and pillaged by the Mountain and other Lannister forces. If he was going to proclaim himself as king of those lands, he had a sworn duty to defend them as well.
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why you gotta hate?
Not knowing Catelyn would release Jaimie is certainly true enough, but he's one of the most valuable possible hostages, behind three other people(Joff, Tywin, Cersei, and he may even rank ahead of Cersei), and he has a single guard. Just a second could have stopped him from carrying out his original escape plan, meaning even if Lady Stark let him go, the Karstarks are still in the army, reducing the need for Frey's men.
The whole reason offering Baelon an alliance goes on the stupid list is simply because nobody except for Theon thought it was a good idea. If your entire council thinks "Maybe let's look for help elsewhere." Heed their advice.
Whether Edmure was fair compensation for Walder is irrelevant. Walder didn't care about being properly compensated for the slight. He cared about hurting the Starks, who had wronged him, and refused to see any attempts to pay for that wrong in anything other than blood as sufficient. He also received numerous warning to not give Frey reason to be angry with him, and ultimately ignored that, too.
Essentially, many of Robb's problems were self inflicted. Yes, his ultimate downfall and demise came at the hands of his enemies who took advantage of the situation, but it was a situation caused by Robb himself.
I can appreciate the awesome qualities of Roose Bolton, just like I can appreciate Tywin Lannister.
Doesn't mean I don't root for their ruin every chance I get.
"marry one of them."
"fuck that"
"it's the only way"
"fuck that shit. they will let us through or i will run them through"
This is y'know tactical stuff aside...and ,well, gender roles.
I'll note I'm not being completely serious in this regard and am exaggerating certain ruthless characteristics of Arya for the sake of this hypothetical
She'd keep Walder Fray as her new pet.
hold up on this
I am a fervent supporter of Stannis the Mannis, the One True King of Westeros
but let's be clear
the dude hasn't exactly got his head on straight, between the dualistic religion and the "listen your smuggling saved my life but I'm going to have to cut off yer fingers a bit because justice"
about the only thing he's doing right is Melisandre, if you know what I mean
(I mean sex)
Tyrion has always been weird to me for this fact.
I wonder if he would've been as much of a humanist if he hadn't been a dwarf.
I always love these scenes.
Because what really happens is that the people up on the battlements are all going,
"What's that lady saying? I can't hear her."
*shrugs*
How is he incorrect on this point? Melisandre is demonstrably MAGICAL. There's basically two things anybody (atheist, old gods believer, whatever) would have to consider at that point.
1) Her belief system is completely true. Since the God of her beliefs is willing to work for his side if he does what she says, he should probably do what she says.
2) Her belief system is slightly or completely mistaken, but SHE has magical powers. She will use these powers for his side if he does what she says, he should probably do what she says.
Obviously, there's more details to consider. Like, can she be persuaded to occasionally soften her directives (this has been shown to work). If "the religion is true" angle is what you're going with, you'd have to worry over when she asked you to do something because SHE wanted it and not her God. Finally, you'd of course have to worry that the unspoken finale to the Lord of Light thing is that she burns you once you've beaten everybody else and she takes control. But from Stannis' perspective, following the old gods would seem very ridiculous indeed at this point.
Uphold his goddamn betrothal. Not complicated.
Only if he wins. Otherwise he's a traitor to the crown, as are all those who support him. Frey was absolutely right to wring out the most painful concessions possible; he's taking a gigantic risk.
Actually afaik the general practice was for the people near the front who could hear to relay what was said to the people behind them, who would do the same and so on.
Speeches in front of huge crowds were giant games of broken telephone.
It might have been painful. It might have weakened his appearance as a strong leader and a just one. But with things as they were it was lunacy to kill the head of the Karstarks. Now is not the time to be just. You can be just when you've won, Robb.
The whole point of the child hostage scheme is that when as you declare war your sons and daughters are dead. It's generally presented nicer than that, but that is the point. Greyjoy may have despised his son, but he did value Theon's...capacity to carry on the line. Robb was right to try negotiating, his mistake was sending Theon to do it.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
Has the show said how old Robb was supposed to be? In the... well... ok. Robb is supposed to be young. Teenager or early twenties. You are stupid and rash at that age. If Robb had lived to Ned's age you could see him being a force to be reckoned with. His failure was down to lack of experience. I think someone mentioned earlier how he arrogantly disregarded advice. Maybe there is a point to that. He did win every battle so in some ways was entitled to think he knew better. Though as Tywin will tell you in wars fighting is only half the battle.
Is there going to be a reveal that Talisa was indeed a spy? A stupid one who didn't realise that she was expendable? If that were the case it would be a real stab to the gut.
Sorry.
" 'Blessed are the cheesemakers', I think..."