Fuck that line of reasoning, many things are offensive to the eye, and there are many people I can't stand the sight of, even skinny ones. People also wear perfumes/deodorants that I might not like the smell of, but the point is that I'm not going to condemn anyone because of it.
EDIT: What you seem to be saying is it's not acceptable to be either skinny or fat or to smell fresh and clean or dirty and grungy because everyone has different preferences. You're in a no-win situation no matter what, essentially.
"Fuck that line of reasoning." Go ahead, fuck away. It's reality.
Maybe it seems the way you posted but that's not what I'm saying. I never said what's 'acceptable,' I'm just explaining that there's no difference between causing someone disgust because of neglecting your weight as opposed to neglecting your hygiene/smell. I'm not saying the disgust is justified but the comparison is accurate.
Now as far as what's "acceptable" that is a matter of opinion. But I will say that if you are the type who does not appreciate someone who neglects their physical health, responsibility to monitor and moderate their intake of food, and is too lazy or doesn't care to change, then yes a fat person is going to appear disgusting to you. They may have a good reason (lots of diseases, conditions, etc. already listed) but that doesn't change that they will appear disgusting. It's a matter of opinion - I'm not saying they should be treated as less, just that the distaste is justified if the person meets this criteria and you are the kind of person who cares about those things.
It's the same with hygiene, if someone neglects their hygiene and chooses not to bathe, the smell might be unpleasant. Just the same as the sight of someone who is neglecting their health and moderation might be unpleasant. You can feel disgust toward whoever you want, perhaps it is just easier when people neglect health and moderation (or hygiene) without any real justification besides 'because I don't want to' or 'I can't help it.' Then get over them being disgusted by you, they don't have to like fat people because they don't want to, because they can't help it, or any other number of reasons. See the connection?
And as for 'no-win situation,' who said anything about winning? This isn't a contest, it's life. Nobody should change their morals or preferences to accommodate people who want to champion their laziness or neglect. If it means they are disgusted by a percentage of the population, so be it. If their goal is to like as many people as possible, they might want to change their beliefs.
I'm not sure I understand what the thread is about. Is it about not being a dick to people, or is it about accepting obesity as a disability? Because I certainly don't think it's right to look down at or disparage people because they are obese. That's dickish. However, I also don't think obesity is a disability unless you actually have some kind of biochemical impairment that leads to obesity.
What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?
I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?
Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."
I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.
All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.
There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
The extremes of the fat acceptance movement creep me out, but so does your fixation on the thyroid as the only valid reason to be fat. A signinficant number of the properly fat people I know are that way because they're physically disabled. Spinal deformities, paralysis, fibromyalgia, MS, joint fuckery (to the extent where they walk with sticks/are in a wheelchair and need a disabled parking permit) and chronic pain conditions are just some of the physical problems that make it very difficult to move, let alone exercise, and if you're one of those people and also predisposed to be cuddly even if you were healthy, there's no way you'll ever pass the Necro Acceptability Test.
The next thing is your problem with mental/emotional issues. The complete dismissal is, I'm sorry, a horrendous attitude. I know people who were sexually abused as children and the only way they feel safe is when they're unattractive, ie fat. This isn't something you get over with a hug and slap on the back, dude. Even with a concerted effort and the ability to afford treatment, that shit takes years of work to get past.
Building on both of those, a lot of the medications used to cope with or attempt to solve those problems fuck your metabolism up, or your sleep patterns, making fat loss even harder. Adds insult to injury, really. People in that situation often don't have the money or time (given that they're working their ass off to pay for meds/therapy/in-home care; or they're on 'benefits' and thus dirt poor) to focus on being pretty. Its a luxury to them. Hell, its a luxury for some of them to be able to leave the house that month.
These people are not in the same class as the drive-thru addicts and self-absorbed oprahbots. And they do deserve acceptance, because they've got enough crap in their lives without some smug fucker swanning in to the room and telling them they're just not trying hard enough.
I suppose I'm just being a stupid government-hating anarchist or something but it seems to me that trying to solve this through policy and legislation is probably a poor approach. Sure, most of us here seem to get that conceptually we're trying to undo institutionalized unhealthiness of lifestyle expectations and whatnot, but in practice most of the people who are looking to be loud dicks to people are going to read it as "fat people are illegal so now I'm extra-justified in being a dick to them". Yes there are things that government can do to help like providing better health education and perhaps re-evaluating the design of PE classes, as well as providing penalties and incentives to encourage production and wider distribution of healthier food. But you're not going to be able to make a law that will turn fat people skinny, and really that shouldn't be the objective so much as to get all people to lead healthier lifestyles. That seems like something that has to happen on an interpersonal level. Going out and getting drunk at a bar Friday night with your friends versus maybe going hiking/camping for two days with your friends. Stuff like that. Not really things that can be forced I guess but if we really feel it has to be forced you guys all think as little of humanity as I do, and at that point why be bothered by people dying of heart-disease? Maybe some kind of grass-roots health movement or something? I mean I know that's pretty much terrorism since it's not funded by the Fed or Kraft, but, meh, kitty wants to be petted, I'm going to sleep.
A legislative approach might help, but the actual laws that would work would be, say, outlawing HFCS and transfats, outlawing manufactured food industry lobbyists, mandating effective food labelling, and restructuring the industrial food chain to favour actual, you know, foods instead of manufactured, overprocessed crap. Perhaps mandating and funding cookery and food budget classes at high school level. Obesity is a function of people eating what's in front of them, and what's in front of them is mostly pretty awful stuff.
We haven't yet examined the claim that being fat is unhealthy. It's taken as axiomatic, and maybe it shouldn't be.
No, there's a massive amount of scientific evidence backing up the claim that just plain being fat is unhealthy. I'm not talking about a few extra pounds, I'm talking about a bodyfat percentage above the healthy ranges for your gender.
I'm not sure I understand what the thread is about. Is it about not being a dick to people, or is it about accepting obesity as a disability? Because I certainly don't think it's right to look down at or disparage people because they are obese. That's dickish. However, I also don't think obesity is a disability unless you actually have some kind of biochemical impairment that leads to obesity.
What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?
I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?
Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."
I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.
All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.
There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
The extremes of the fat acceptance movement creep me out, but so does your fixation on the thyroid as the only valid reason to be fat. A signinficant number of the properly fat people I know are that way because they're physically disabled. Spinal deformities, paralysis, fibromyalgia, MS, joint fuckery (to the extent where they walk with sticks/are in a wheelchair and need a disabled parking permit) and chronic pain conditions are just some of the physical problems that make it very difficult to move, let alone exercise, and if you're one of those people and also predisposed to be cuddly even if you were healthy, there's no way you'll ever pass the Necro Acceptability Test.
The next thing is your problem with mental/emotional issues. The complete dismissal is, I'm sorry, a horrendous attitude. I know people who were sexually abused as children and the only way they feel safe is when they're unattractive, ie fat. This isn't something you get over with a hug and slap on the back, dude. Even with a concerted effort and the ability to afford treatment, that shit takes years of work to get past.
Building on both of those, a lot of the medications used to cope with or attempt to solve those problems fuck your metabolism up, or your sleep patterns, making fat loss even harder. Adds insult to injury, really. People in that situation often don't have the money or time (given that they're working their ass off to pay for meds/therapy/in-home care; or they're on 'benefits' and thus dirt poor) to focus on being pretty. Its a luxury to them. Hell, its a luxury for some of them to be able to leave the house that month.
These people are not in the same class as the drive-thru addicts and self-absorbed oprahbots. And they do deserve acceptance, because they've got enough crap in their lives without some smug fucker swanning in to the room and telling them they're just not trying hard enough.
Well, I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion, then. Because, barring a serious physical disability (and I know plenty of healthy people in wheelchairs, etc, so you're talking about a tiny fraction of the populace for whom being obese is the least of their health problems), I don't accept a complete abdication of personal responsibility when it comes to fitness.
Not to be glib, but if someone's using fat as an emotional or mental crutch, who are they really ceding power to? Their abuser, their attacker, the person who already haunts them. Part of the healing process is taking back your life and getting all of that emotional weight off is necessarily also part of that process.
But again, we're not talking about the vast, vast majority of obese people in America. The vast, vast majority are fat because of thyroid issues and insulin/glucose issues. Maybe if most of those people got off their asses and got healthy, then the paradigm of how obesity is viewed could change to a more appropriate one.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
This has been brought up already, but why is it so terrible to be fat? Sure it's not healthy, but so are a lot of things, and it's a person's right to choose how they want to balance the values in their life.
No, you are being glib, necro. Also, wilfully ignorant. Its not a matter of opinion (and no-one was talking about a 'complete abdication of responsibility', either, so you can knock that off). The western diet doesn't help, sure, but its also about as avoidable as death and taxes for a significant portion of the population, fatty or not.
I was actually under the impression that obese people were LESS of a drain on this country than healthy people because they die much ealier, meaning they don't get to draw on social security and Medicare whereas someone with a healthy heart who manages to live to fucking 80 or 100 spends a few decades drawing on resources and giving nothing back in return.
Given that, I don't see why I should care if people don't want to take steps to lose weight. They're not stubbornly leeching off of everyone else, and unless they're going out of their way to demand that all the skinny models and actors (as opposed to just some, which I think is reasonable) be replaced by fat ones, how exactly am I negatively effected?
No, you are being glib, necro. Also, wilfully ignorant. Its not a matter of opinion (and no-one was talking about a 'complete abdication of responsibility', either, so you can knock that off). The western diet doesn't help, sure, but its also about as avoidable as death and taxes for a significant portion of the population, fatty or not.
Sorry, but your third sentence directly contradicts your second sentence. It's unfortunate that the western diet doesn't aid in a healthy lifestyle. That does not mean it's carte blanche for people with hypothyroidism to be hugely fat and wail that it's not their fault.
I was actually under the impression that obese people were LESS of a drain on this country than healthy people because they die much ealier, meaning they don't get to draw on social security and Medicare whereas someone with a healthy heart who manages to live to fucking 80 or 100 spends a few decades drawing on resources and giving nothing back in return.
Given that, I don't see why I should care if people don't want to take steps to lose weight. They're not stubbornly leeching off of everyone else, and unless they're going out of their way to demand that all the skinny models and actors (as opposed to just some, which I think is reasonable) be replaced by fat ones, how exactly am I negatively effected?
No, obese people are generally far more needy, medically, than healthy people. It's not just about who ends up living longer. Couple that with the unfortunate fact that it's cheap to eat like shit and expensive to eat healthily, and you have an entire class of people who have or will have serious medical problems for decades and will not be able to pay for their own medical care.
No, you are being glib, necro. Also, wilfully ignorant. Its not a matter of opinion (and no-one was talking about a 'complete abdication of responsibility', either, so you can knock that off). The western diet doesn't help, sure, but its also about as avoidable as death and taxes for a significant portion of the population, fatty or not.
Sorry, but your third sentence directly contradicts your second sentence. It's unfortunate that the western diet doesn't aid in a healthy lifestyle. That does not mean it's carte blanche for people with hypothyroidism to be hugely fat and wail that it's not their fault.
Except that nowhere in my post am I advocating acceptance of people like that, so I don't know what your problem is apart from you thinking that apparently mental and physical problems shouldn't count and that these people should just magically suck it up.
I was actually under the impression that obese people were LESS of a drain on this country than healthy people because they die much ealier, meaning they don't get to draw on social security and Medicare whereas someone with a healthy heart who manages to live to fucking 80 or 100 spends a few decades drawing on resources and giving nothing back in return.
Given that, I don't see why I should care if people don't want to take steps to lose weight. They're not stubbornly leeching off of everyone else, and unless they're going out of their way to demand that all the skinny models and actors (as opposed to just some, which I think is reasonable) be replaced by fat ones, how exactly am I negatively effected?
No, obese people are generally far more needy, medically, than healthy people. It's not just about who ends up living longer. Couple that with the unfortunate fact that it's cheap to eat like shit and expensive to eat healthily, and you have an entire class of people who have or will have serious medical problems for decades and will not be able to pay for their own medical care.
Is there such a thing as a healthy old person, though?
I was actually under the impression that obese people were LESS of a drain on this country than healthy people because they die much ealier, meaning they don't get to draw on social security and Medicare whereas someone with a healthy heart who manages to live to fucking 80 or 100 spends a few decades drawing on resources and giving nothing back in return.
Given that, I don't see why I should care if people don't want to take steps to lose weight. They're not stubbornly leeching off of everyone else, and unless they're going out of their way to demand that all the skinny models and actors (as opposed to just some, which I think is reasonable) be replaced by fat ones, how exactly am I negatively effected?
No, obese people are generally far more needy, medically, than healthy people. It's not just about who ends up living longer. Couple that with the unfortunate fact that it's cheap to eat like shit and expensive to eat healthily, and you have an entire class of people who have or will have serious medical problems for decades and will not be able to pay for their own medical care.
Is there such a thing as a healthy old person, though?
No, you are being glib, necro. Also, wilfully ignorant. Its not a matter of opinion (and no-one was talking about a 'complete abdication of responsibility', either, so you can knock that off). The western diet doesn't help, sure, but its also about as avoidable as death and taxes for a significant portion of the population, fatty or not.
Sorry, but your third sentence directly contradicts your second sentence. It's unfortunate that the western diet doesn't aid in a healthy lifestyle. That does not mean it's carte blanche for people with hypothyroidism to be hugely fat and wail that it's not their fault.
Except that nowhere in my post am I advocating acceptance of people like that, so I don't know what your problem is apart from you thinking that apparently mental and physical problems shouldn't count and that these people should just magically suck it up.
And that's idiotic.
Well, if you're going to distill and exaggerate my posts into a strawman, then I'm pretty much done with you.
Even then, I'd wager that most old people aren't healthy and that the older people get, the more likely they are to require substantial care or even round-the-clock care, all of which eventually outpaces the costs an obese person might incur over their shorter lifespan.
Hey, are the Pima Indians equally to blame for their fatitude as other Americans?
They're all porkers, pretty much. And they have the highest rate of Type 2 Diabetes in the US, which is impressive. But it's because of a genetic predisposition towards needing basically no calories to survive. Like, they could have a cookie and a bowl of rice and be cool for the next few days. Personally I'd say that this means that while they should be working as hard as possible to stay fit as type 2 Diabetes is no joke, I understand why they'd find that next to impossible.
Also, no I am done with you.
Edit: The incidence of Alzheimers after 80 is somewhere around 75%. Oldness will eventually turn you into a vegetable, barring some really good luck.
being fat doesn't make you evil, stupid, ignorant or inhuman.
some people don't know what they are doing and don't care if they are fat - treat them as people and educate them on the problems with being fat.
some people don't know what they are doing and care if they are fat - treat them as people, eductate them on the problems with being fat and help them exercize and diet to become less fat.
some people know what they are doing and care if they are fat - treat them as people and help them exercize and diet to become less fat.
some people know what they are doing and don't care if they are fat - treat them as people and let them make their decision. its probably an objectively bad choice but it isn't yours to make. these people are not evil or stupid or ignorant.... they just like food.
the main idea is: TREAT FAT PEOPLE LIKE PEOPLE and don't judge someone's character based on their being fat or skinny.
I'm pretty much on the side of "People have problems. Make available helpful resources, but if they fail in their pursuit of a healthy body for any number of reasons (willpower, ignorance, socioeconomic status, physical or mental impairment, etc.) be respectful and supportive". That said, the quote above ('no evidence that overweight people eat more or exercise less than people who aren't overweight') is kind of ridiculous. I understand support, but that just seems to veer into stark rationalization. I don't think that's helpful at all.
I'm pretty much on the side of "People have problems. Make available helpful resources, but if they fail in their pursuit of a healthy body for any number of reasons (willpower, ignorance, socioeconomic status, physical or mental impairment, etc.) be respectful and supportive".
If I were to know an overweight person who I felt genuinely wanted to (but couldn't) lose weight, I'd offer my support. However, I refuse to be respectful to some dude who's so big he's gotta putt around Wal-Mart in one of those motorized shopping cart dealies. There are people who are simply overweight and there are people who are grossly obese, and I categorize them as I do with people who smoke and people who reek like an overfilled ashtray.
I'm spoilering my backstory since it's not really necessary to read it, but I feel it's important for people to understand if they've never been obese.
I'm pretty damn fat, and I bet one of the fattest people here. I have always been fat. It's caused by growing up completely ignorant of nutrition and exercise. Even now I still don't understand nutrition that well.
I try to exercise, but I can handle about 15 minutes tops on an elliptical machine before I feel like I'm going to pass out. That said, I don't get winded or sweaty just walking around like my parents do. I use stairs, though I have to go slower. I try my best to hide that I'm out of breath from others.
I try to eat healthy, but there is a tremendous guilt for eating at all. I feel like if I eat anything other than a salad that I'm just bringing myself down. I don't know how many times I've had to tell myself "it's okay that this pasta is several hundred calories a serving, it's my dinner and I can eat that" but it rarely helps. I don't like eating out at restaurants because I don't like the idea that people can watch me eat.
I've become aware of my own habits to try to break them or substitute them. I usually have a snack after work, so I've bought fruit. Whenever I've bought fruit in the past I put it in the fridge and forget about it, so I have a fruit bowl on the counter now. I still like to eat a lot, so I've started making smaller meals and making up the difference in salad.
I do all this and I still gain weight. I'm doing my best to figure out why, but exercising as much as I can and eating as healthy as I can figure out how, and still gaining weight is an incredibly frustrating experience. I deal with this every minute of every day.
It's nice that here people are saying that it should be a given that fat people are treated with respect as human beings, but it's not true. It's absolutely not true. I've been laughed at, had my picture taken by strangers, been told by total strangers to stop eating or to leave some food for the rest of the people. Some of these people think they are trying to help me even though I don't know them and didn't ask for help, but some really are just expressing the last acceptable form of prejudice.
Any movement that brings attention to the bullshit that fat people have to put up with is good. Yes, some of their tenets about being overweight and being healthy are not true or are not well argued (being overweight via BMI is fine in many cases, as has been discussed), but is it so wrong to have an organization stand up and say that this treatment and exploitation of people because they're fat is no longer acceptable?
But since you can't tell by looking whether or not someone is fat because of a genuine disability or because they "just don't try" or whatever, you default to the latter. How does this make you better than anyone again? Also smokers fund healthcare for poor kids who can't afford it courtesy of a new federal tax, so, yeah, stop doing bong-rips with your horse.
Any movement that brings attention to the bullshit that fat people have to put up with is good. Yes, some of their tenets about being overweight and being healthy are not true or are not well argued (being overweight via BMI is fine in many cases, as has been discussed), but is it so wrong to have an organization stand up and say that this treatment and exploitation of people because they're fat is no longer acceptable?
Your story makes me feel like a jerk. Wow. I'm one of those people.
It's easy for people (me) to judge, especially since I've never had anything more than a slight beer-induced weight problem. And, yeah, I know that there are sometimes deeper issues to people being way overweight than simply eating too much.
I'll probably never understand a fat person's situation or how it can be so difficult to lose weight, but I'll try to be more understanding. I honestly don't want to be a judgemental jerk unless it's absolutely necessary.
To the extent that obese people should be treated like human beings isn't going to be debated by anyone here. Absolutely, most of the people here aren't going to be assholes to someone about their weight and absolutely, most of us would be as supportive as possible of any effort an obese person would make toward being more healthy.
To the extent that obese people should be treated like human beings isn't going to be debated by anyone here. Absolutely, most of the people here aren't going to be assholes to someone about their weight and absolutely, most of us would be as supportive as possible of any effort an obese person would make toward being more healthy.
It's the assumptions though. People assume a lot of things about fat people. Sure, if you have a friend who is overweight or obese then you'll probably know a bit about what they do to help or hurt their health. But if you see an obese person on the street, you don't know their story. Maybe they've just lost 50 pounds but they're still working on it, maybe their eating healthy is managing to get them to maintain their weight rather than continue to gain, maybe they really are ignorant to nutrition and have no idea how to be healthy, or maybe they really are lazy people who don't want to work for their health. There's no way to tell from a glance where someone is in their life and what their story is.
For example, the woman who told me to stop eating when I was in a food court? I was in high school, had been dieting for two weeks, having lost around 10 lbs, and was feeling pretty good. I had heard that once you give up bad food like McDonalds then you don't really want to go back and feel sick while eating it. I decided to test this theory by having McDonalds one day after school. While I was sitting there a woman came up to me and told me not to eat that, and maybe I should have a salad instead, because I'm already overweight and should be eating healthy. I have no doubt this woman thought she was helping me, but the idea that I had thought I was getting better and to this woman I was still so fat that she felt the need to intervene? That broke my healthy diet right there. I was young and that was really all it took to lose my confidence.
While I was sitting there a woman came up to me and told me not to eat that, and maybe I should have a salad instead, because I'm already overweight and should be eating healthy. I have no doubt this woman thought she was helping me, but the idea that I had thought I was getting better and to this woman I was still so fat that she felt the need to intervene?
Sorry fatties. Put down the big mac and run around the block a few times every day.
I really don't want to pay for your health care. 8(
I'm all for this sentiment. As long as we also stop government funded smoking, alcohol, and drug treatment programs and deny Alcoholics and drug addicts healthcare as well.
So, here's the thing. Being overweight is not a problem. Being overweight can be an indicator of a problem. It is not a definite indicator. It is not the only indicator. It is not a problem in and of itself.
The thing that really annoys me when talking about weight loss is when people talk about how easy it is. About how they just cut out regular soda, or stopped going to mcdonalds, and so dropped 10, 20 pounds. Well, that's great for you. And I'm happy for you. But it's only for you.
I played soccer my entire childhood, I was pretty active. I ate what my parents made for me - usually fairly healthy, though I did usually eat a lot of it. In college I gained even MORE weight as I got used to making my own meal selections - then lost some of it when I got used to eating well again. I'm still overweight, just toeing the line for obese. I've been going to the gym with as much regularity as I can get, given my other hobbies and conflicts. I've been eating healthier and healthier, I'm cooking as many meals as I can. I'm eating more fruits and veggies, I've taken HFCS out of my diet, or as much of it as I can. I drink skim milk and diet soda, and non-calorie drinks. I only drink alcohol sparingly. I walk to work.
I've attempted to turn as much of my focus as I can onto losing weight, partially because I know it's healthy, partly because of the mocking I received in school for being the fat kid, the stigma which I never managed to lose. I still weigh the same as I did 2 years ago, and I still have the same gut I've had since I was a kid. I know it's possible for me to lose weight, and I'm going to keep trying - but I think people need to realize what a struggle it is for some.
If you are incapable of taking care of your body why is it the governments responsability?
Its one thing if you get lung cancer from working in a factory for 20 years. It is quite another to get something similar from smoking, drinking, or eating.
Last week I saw a woman get off of the little motor-scooter thing at Wal mart to reach the Little Debbie cakes on the top shelf, then plop back down and continue on her way. She must have been at least 250 pounds, if not more.
I try not to judge people based on appearance, but things like that drive me crazy. That, and her fat child following her mindlessly through the aisles. I don't care so much that she's ruined her life and mobility, but at least give your kid a fighting chance.
Then again, that brand of wonderful parenting might be how she got there in the first place.
HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Sorry for interrupting the flow of conversation, but I was just talking with some people about how it is similarly ridiculous that THIS
Is a plus size model in this country. She's between a size 8 and a size 10. You wouldn't be able to find those sizes in a Lane Bryant, where you'd be lucky to find a size 14.
The funny thing is, Taft doesn't really look all that large given modern trends.
edit: Maybe that's just a friendly drawing of him.
Academic source The Miller Center lists his [Taft] peak weight at 300 pounds, but other sources list it as high as 355 (during his presidency). He was said to have lost almost 90 pounds in the first year after leaving office.
The thing that really annoys me when talking about weight loss is when people talk about how easy it is. About how they just cut out regular soda, or stopped going to mcdonalds, and so dropped 10, 20 pounds. Well, that's great for you. And I'm happy for you. But it's only for you.
edit:: Like Limp Moose. Fuck you.
No fark you man the hell up.
One of my best buds in the navy moved to a new command where they actually enforced the height and weight standards. (lots of commands do not for officers/senior enlisted) Mofo had 6 months to lose over 40 pounds. You don't lose 40 pounds from cutting out soda and snacks. He had to completely redo his diet and work out 6 days a week. If he can do it ANYONE can do it. Fucker has a bullet in his leg and can't run. He had to do it through ridiculous cardio that involved not using his leg.
That is what bugs me about the fat debate. You have one side who is skinny and doesn't need to do anything. And one side who is fat who doesn't want to do anything. Well too bad. Its called working out. It takes "work!" Yes its hard, yes it is not fun, yes it hurts. But the reward is women find you attractive and you don't die at 45 from heart failure.
Sorry for interrupting the flow of conversation, but I was just talking with some people about how it is similarly ridiculous that THIS
Is a plus size model in this country. She's between a size 8 and a size 10. You wouldn't be able to find those sizes in a Lane Bryant, where you'd be lucky to find a size 14.
For comparison, I'm a 12.
MAN THE HARPOONS
No but seriously, I know what you mean. I've done a lot of photography for models, and even in local settings, the pressure on them to be a size 1 is ridonkulous. Luckily, a lot of smaller, local places want more 'natural' shaped girls.
Guys, on the other hand, seem to pretty much have to be ripped.
Posts
"Fuck that line of reasoning." Go ahead, fuck away. It's reality.
Maybe it seems the way you posted but that's not what I'm saying. I never said what's 'acceptable,' I'm just explaining that there's no difference between causing someone disgust because of neglecting your weight as opposed to neglecting your hygiene/smell. I'm not saying the disgust is justified but the comparison is accurate.
Now as far as what's "acceptable" that is a matter of opinion. But I will say that if you are the type who does not appreciate someone who neglects their physical health, responsibility to monitor and moderate their intake of food, and is too lazy or doesn't care to change, then yes a fat person is going to appear disgusting to you. They may have a good reason (lots of diseases, conditions, etc. already listed) but that doesn't change that they will appear disgusting. It's a matter of opinion - I'm not saying they should be treated as less, just that the distaste is justified if the person meets this criteria and you are the kind of person who cares about those things.
It's the same with hygiene, if someone neglects their hygiene and chooses not to bathe, the smell might be unpleasant. Just the same as the sight of someone who is neglecting their health and moderation might be unpleasant. You can feel disgust toward whoever you want, perhaps it is just easier when people neglect health and moderation (or hygiene) without any real justification besides 'because I don't want to' or 'I can't help it.' Then get over them being disgusted by you, they don't have to like fat people because they don't want to, because they can't help it, or any other number of reasons. See the connection?
And as for 'no-win situation,' who said anything about winning? This isn't a contest, it's life. Nobody should change their morals or preferences to accommodate people who want to champion their laziness or neglect. If it means they are disgusted by a percentage of the population, so be it. If their goal is to like as many people as possible, they might want to change their beliefs.
The extremes of the fat acceptance movement creep me out, but so does your fixation on the thyroid as the only valid reason to be fat. A signinficant number of the properly fat people I know are that way because they're physically disabled. Spinal deformities, paralysis, fibromyalgia, MS, joint fuckery (to the extent where they walk with sticks/are in a wheelchair and need a disabled parking permit) and chronic pain conditions are just some of the physical problems that make it very difficult to move, let alone exercise, and if you're one of those people and also predisposed to be cuddly even if you were healthy, there's no way you'll ever pass the Necro Acceptability Test.
The next thing is your problem with mental/emotional issues. The complete dismissal is, I'm sorry, a horrendous attitude. I know people who were sexually abused as children and the only way they feel safe is when they're unattractive, ie fat. This isn't something you get over with a hug and slap on the back, dude. Even with a concerted effort and the ability to afford treatment, that shit takes years of work to get past.
Building on both of those, a lot of the medications used to cope with or attempt to solve those problems fuck your metabolism up, or your sleep patterns, making fat loss even harder. Adds insult to injury, really. People in that situation often don't have the money or time (given that they're working their ass off to pay for meds/therapy/in-home care; or they're on 'benefits' and thus dirt poor) to focus on being pretty. Its a luxury to them. Hell, its a luxury for some of them to be able to leave the house that month.
These people are not in the same class as the drive-thru addicts and self-absorbed oprahbots. And they do deserve acceptance, because they've got enough crap in their lives without some smug fucker swanning in to the room and telling them they're just not trying hard enough.
No, there's a massive amount of scientific evidence backing up the claim that just plain being fat is unhealthy. I'm not talking about a few extra pounds, I'm talking about a bodyfat percentage above the healthy ranges for your gender.
Well, I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion, then. Because, barring a serious physical disability (and I know plenty of healthy people in wheelchairs, etc, so you're talking about a tiny fraction of the populace for whom being obese is the least of their health problems), I don't accept a complete abdication of personal responsibility when it comes to fitness.
Not to be glib, but if someone's using fat as an emotional or mental crutch, who are they really ceding power to? Their abuser, their attacker, the person who already haunts them. Part of the healing process is taking back your life and getting all of that emotional weight off is necessarily also part of that process.
But again, we're not talking about the vast, vast majority of obese people in America. The vast, vast majority are fat because of thyroid issues and insulin/glucose issues. Maybe if most of those people got off their asses and got healthy, then the paradigm of how obesity is viewed could change to a more appropriate one.
Given that, I don't see why I should care if people don't want to take steps to lose weight. They're not stubbornly leeching off of everyone else, and unless they're going out of their way to demand that all the skinny models and actors (as opposed to just some, which I think is reasonable) be replaced by fat ones, how exactly am I negatively effected?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Sorry, but your third sentence directly contradicts your second sentence. It's unfortunate that the western diet doesn't aid in a healthy lifestyle. That does not mean it's carte blanche for people with hypothyroidism to be hugely fat and wail that it's not their fault.
No, obese people are generally far more needy, medically, than healthy people. It's not just about who ends up living longer. Couple that with the unfortunate fact that it's cheap to eat like shit and expensive to eat healthily, and you have an entire class of people who have or will have serious medical problems for decades and will not be able to pay for their own medical care.
And that's idiotic.
Is there such a thing as a healthy old person, though?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Absolutely.
Well, if you're going to distill and exaggerate my posts into a strawman, then I'm pretty much done with you.
You're just too damn smug about your own success to see what I'm talking about, so really, I'm the one who's done.
Even then, I'd wager that most old people aren't healthy and that the older people get, the more likely they are to require substantial care or even round-the-clock care, all of which eventually outpaces the costs an obese person might incur over their shorter lifespan.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
They're all porkers, pretty much. And they have the highest rate of Type 2 Diabetes in the US, which is impressive. But it's because of a genetic predisposition towards needing basically no calories to survive. Like, they could have a cookie and a bowl of rice and be cool for the next few days. Personally I'd say that this means that while they should be working as hard as possible to stay fit as type 2 Diabetes is no joke, I understand why they'd find that next to impossible.
Also, no I am done with you.
Edit: The incidence of Alzheimers after 80 is somewhere around 75%. Oldness will eventually turn you into a vegetable, barring some really good luck.
some people don't know what they are doing and don't care if they are fat - treat them as people and educate them on the problems with being fat.
some people don't know what they are doing and care if they are fat - treat them as people, eductate them on the problems with being fat and help them exercize and diet to become less fat.
some people know what they are doing and care if they are fat - treat them as people and help them exercize and diet to become less fat.
some people know what they are doing and don't care if they are fat - treat them as people and let them make their decision. its probably an objectively bad choice but it isn't yours to make. these people are not evil or stupid or ignorant.... they just like food.
the main idea is: TREAT FAT PEOPLE LIKE PEOPLE and don't judge someone's character based on their being fat or skinny.
[/.02]
I'm not gonna overtly treat fat people badly. But I will sit in silent judgement like any good American would, tyvm.
If I were to know an overweight person who I felt genuinely wanted to (but couldn't) lose weight, I'd offer my support. However, I refuse to be respectful to some dude who's so big he's gotta putt around Wal-Mart in one of those motorized shopping cart dealies. There are people who are simply overweight and there are people who are grossly obese, and I categorize them as I do with people who smoke and people who reek like an overfilled ashtray.
i am silently judging you right now
I try to exercise, but I can handle about 15 minutes tops on an elliptical machine before I feel like I'm going to pass out. That said, I don't get winded or sweaty just walking around like my parents do. I use stairs, though I have to go slower. I try my best to hide that I'm out of breath from others.
I try to eat healthy, but there is a tremendous guilt for eating at all. I feel like if I eat anything other than a salad that I'm just bringing myself down. I don't know how many times I've had to tell myself "it's okay that this pasta is several hundred calories a serving, it's my dinner and I can eat that" but it rarely helps. I don't like eating out at restaurants because I don't like the idea that people can watch me eat.
I've become aware of my own habits to try to break them or substitute them. I usually have a snack after work, so I've bought fruit. Whenever I've bought fruit in the past I put it in the fridge and forget about it, so I have a fruit bowl on the counter now. I still like to eat a lot, so I've started making smaller meals and making up the difference in salad.
I do all this and I still gain weight. I'm doing my best to figure out why, but exercising as much as I can and eating as healthy as I can figure out how, and still gaining weight is an incredibly frustrating experience. I deal with this every minute of every day.
It's nice that here people are saying that it should be a given that fat people are treated with respect as human beings, but it's not true. It's absolutely not true. I've been laughed at, had my picture taken by strangers, been told by total strangers to stop eating or to leave some food for the rest of the people. Some of these people think they are trying to help me even though I don't know them and didn't ask for help, but some really are just expressing the last acceptable form of prejudice.
Any movement that brings attention to the bullshit that fat people have to put up with is good. Yes, some of their tenets about being overweight and being healthy are not true or are not well argued (being overweight via BMI is fine in many cases, as has been discussed), but is it so wrong to have an organization stand up and say that this treatment and exploitation of people because they're fat is no longer acceptable?
Your story makes me feel like a jerk. Wow. I'm one of those people.
It's easy for people (me) to judge, especially since I've never had anything more than a slight beer-induced weight problem. And, yeah, I know that there are sometimes deeper issues to people being way overweight than simply eating too much.
I'll probably never understand a fat person's situation or how it can be so difficult to lose weight, but I'll try to be more understanding. I honestly don't want to be a judgemental jerk unless it's absolutely necessary.
Obviously you're not.
It's the assumptions though. People assume a lot of things about fat people. Sure, if you have a friend who is overweight or obese then you'll probably know a bit about what they do to help or hurt their health. But if you see an obese person on the street, you don't know their story. Maybe they've just lost 50 pounds but they're still working on it, maybe their eating healthy is managing to get them to maintain their weight rather than continue to gain, maybe they really are ignorant to nutrition and have no idea how to be healthy, or maybe they really are lazy people who don't want to work for their health. There's no way to tell from a glance where someone is in their life and what their story is.
For example, the woman who told me to stop eating when I was in a food court? I was in high school, had been dieting for two weeks, having lost around 10 lbs, and was feeling pretty good. I had heard that once you give up bad food like McDonalds then you don't really want to go back and feel sick while eating it. I decided to test this theory by having McDonalds one day after school. While I was sitting there a woman came up to me and told me not to eat that, and maybe I should have a salad instead, because I'm already overweight and should be eating healthy. I have no doubt this woman thought she was helping me, but the idea that I had thought I was getting better and to this woman I was still so fat that she felt the need to intervene? That broke my healthy diet right there. I was young and that was really all it took to lose my confidence.
Assholes like that make me want to get violent.
I really don't want to pay for your health care. 8(
I'm all for this sentiment. As long as we also stop government funded smoking, alcohol, and drug treatment programs and deny Alcoholics and drug addicts healthcare as well.
Oh wait. That would be retarded.
The thing that really annoys me when talking about weight loss is when people talk about how easy it is. About how they just cut out regular soda, or stopped going to mcdonalds, and so dropped 10, 20 pounds. Well, that's great for you. And I'm happy for you. But it's only for you.
I played soccer my entire childhood, I was pretty active. I ate what my parents made for me - usually fairly healthy, though I did usually eat a lot of it. In college I gained even MORE weight as I got used to making my own meal selections - then lost some of it when I got used to eating well again. I'm still overweight, just toeing the line for obese. I've been going to the gym with as much regularity as I can get, given my other hobbies and conflicts. I've been eating healthier and healthier, I'm cooking as many meals as I can. I'm eating more fruits and veggies, I've taken HFCS out of my diet, or as much of it as I can. I drink skim milk and diet soda, and non-calorie drinks. I only drink alcohol sparingly. I walk to work.
I've attempted to turn as much of my focus as I can onto losing weight, partially because I know it's healthy, partly because of the mocking I received in school for being the fat kid, the stigma which I never managed to lose. I still weigh the same as I did 2 years ago, and I still have the same gut I've had since I was a kid. I know it's possible for me to lose weight, and I'm going to keep trying - but I think people need to realize what a struggle it is for some.
edit:: Like Limp Moose. Fuck you.
If you are incapable of taking care of your body why is it the governments responsability?
Its one thing if you get lung cancer from working in a factory for 20 years. It is quite another to get something similar from smoking, drinking, or eating.
I try not to judge people based on appearance, but things like that drive me crazy. That, and her fat child following her mindlessly through the aisles. I don't care so much that she's ruined her life and mobility, but at least give your kid a fighting chance.
Then again, that brand of wonderful parenting might be how she got there in the first place.
Is a plus size model in this country. She's between a size 8 and a size 10. You wouldn't be able to find those sizes in a Lane Bryant, where you'd be lucky to find a size 14.
For comparison, I'm a 12.
NNID: Hakkekage
Frankly who wouldn't want to frolic around in a quasi-swimming pool. You bet your ass Wilson did right after inauguration!*
*(Probably not true)
NNID: Hakkekage
edit: Maybe that's just a friendly drawing of him.
Academic source The Miller Center lists his [Taft] peak weight at 300 pounds, but other sources list it as high as 355 (during his presidency). He was said to have lost almost 90 pounds in the first year after leaving office.
No fark you man the hell up.
One of my best buds in the navy moved to a new command where they actually enforced the height and weight standards. (lots of commands do not for officers/senior enlisted) Mofo had 6 months to lose over 40 pounds. You don't lose 40 pounds from cutting out soda and snacks. He had to completely redo his diet and work out 6 days a week. If he can do it ANYONE can do it. Fucker has a bullet in his leg and can't run. He had to do it through ridiculous cardio that involved not using his leg.
That is what bugs me about the fat debate. You have one side who is skinny and doesn't need to do anything. And one side who is fat who doesn't want to do anything. Well too bad. Its called working out. It takes "work!" Yes its hard, yes it is not fun, yes it hurts. But the reward is women find you attractive and you don't die at 45 from heart failure.
Seems worth it?
MAN THE HARPOONS
No but seriously, I know what you mean. I've done a lot of photography for models, and even in local settings, the pressure on them to be a size 1 is ridonkulous. Luckily, a lot of smaller, local places want more 'natural' shaped girls.
Guys, on the other hand, seem to pretty much have to be ripped.