For me I think both Wonderwoman and Superman need to have some serious changes happen to make the DC universe more, well, good. Maybe DC could do something like the "Ultimate" universe, but more defined as one narrative. I think that Superman shouldn't be able to fly. That's just how I feel about it. He should be able to leap incredible heights and distances, but not fly. I feel like the same should be put in place for Wonderwoman, UNLESS it's implied that her armor is what allows her to fly. I'd really like either one, or neither of them to be able to fly. Also, I'd like Wonderwoman to be non-immortal. Super strong? Yes. Immortal? No. I want her to have to use her wrist gauntlet things to block bullets like she often does in the JLU animated series, but actually NEED to to stop gunshot wounds. I want MORE lasso combat, I want her to be more naive about life, and more warfare strategic than Batman. From a narrative point of view, I want her to feel isolated from real life, making her life in the JL feel like a cage, maybe do some stuff about her envying the freedom that Americans have. Make her really want to be American, rather than have her trying to shove her culture's values down everyone's throats, because then the patriotic stuff would make sense.
A lot of that seems incredibly arbitrary. Especially the Superman stuff, and somehow I think we're better off seperating Wonder Woman from American Patriotism than trying to tie her MORE to it. It really doesn't make a damn bit of sense for a Greek Amazon.
Superman doesn't need any changing. He's fine. Especially lately. This whole New Krypton thing that started at the end of the Braniac arc has been non-stop awesome.
I agree that the patriotism makes no sense, I just think that it's such a big aspect of the look of the character though that I'd prefer them work it into her character than remove it entirely.
With the Superman stuff, I don't consider it pressing, it's just something I wish was in effect. I'll agree that I've been loving recent Superman, I just meant as far as DC universe as a collective narrative, there's some major stuff I'd want to see changed about him.
Wasn't the last major change to Supes to split him in half and make him electric?
Nah. I'm totally cool with them never trying that again.
Hey, so, today's DiDio interview with Newsarama he says this (in the context of Jason Todd running around in Batman):
The perfect example of that was when Wonder Woman killed Max Lord. We thought that all the way through – we saw how that affected the relationship between Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. We saw what happens when that relationship breaks down, and how that affected the entire DC Universe, as well as how it was ultimately resolved. We saw those causes and effects all the way through. Or another case - Identity Crisis - we saw those events, the effects of those events, and how they played through the DC Universe. Every time that we try to do a major story where we feel a moral line has been crossed, there are always ramifications because of it. Things that you’re mentioning with Jason – of seeing him kill – are all potential stories for the future. Unless he doesn’t make it out of Battle for the Cowl, these are all story beats that we’d like to see play out throughout the DCU, and they’re all fodder for future storytelling.
Yet... Nothing I've read here or just in general seems to make that case.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Well, he's lying through his teeth, what do you expect?
I really really loved Greg Rucka's run on Wonder Woman; it's what actually got me into comics. The Diana there had a purpose that wasn't just Superman with tits, had a great supporting cast, and was leading up to an interesting political conflict. Unfortunately they fucked it all up with Infinite Crisis, then even more so with Amazons Attack. Even Simone's run, while great, feels too much like damage control from those two events.
Agree with this 1000% Rucka's run is the only time I felt comic WW had a purpose/unified sense of character. JLU didn't do badly, but it's not at all the same as a monthly comic, and even there I think she suffered.
Rise of the Olympians is finally over. I wasn't very fond of the arc, but I guess at the end something important did happen.
Diana left the Amazons and punched out Zeus and stated she would not swear allegiance to the greek gods.
It will be interesting to see the direction that Simone takes the book in the coming months, since with this arc she basically severed all ties to Greek Mythology.
Rise of the Olympians is finally over. I wasn't very fond of the arc, but I guess at the end something important did happen.
Diana left the Amazons and punched out Zeus and stated she would not swear allegiance to the greek gods.
It will be interesting to see the direction that Simone takes the book in the coming months, since with this arc she basically severed all ties to Greek Mythology.
Hold on,
didn't she already swear allegiance to a different god in order to get back to Themyscira?
Rise of the Olympians is finally over. I wasn't very fond of the arc, but I guess at the end something important did happen.
Diana left the Amazons and punched out Zeus and stated she would not swear allegiance to the greek gods.
It will be interesting to see the direction that Simone takes the book in the coming months, since with this arc she basically severed all ties to Greek Mythology.
Hold on,
didn't she already swear allegiance to a different god in order to get back to Themyscira?
Zeus killed him.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Rise of the Olympians is finally over. I wasn't very fond of the arc, but I guess at the end something important did happen.
Diana left the Amazons and punched out Zeus and stated she would not swear allegiance to the greek gods.
It will be interesting to see the direction that Simone takes the book in the coming months, since with this arc she basically severed all ties to Greek Mythology.
Hold on,
didn't she already swear allegiance to a different god in order to get back to Themyscira?
Well, Wonder Woman was always a character that I couldn't really figure out. I consider as something like a side dish. The mashed potatoes of DC if you want to put it that way.
The other option would be to attempt to tie the various things together - start off with her adventures in ancient Greece, fighting monsters and gods, as a Demigod (child of Athena and a mortal - brought together by Aphrodite). After many adventures (possibly ending with the Trojan war) she is put into stasis for when Greece needs her, and have her awaken when the Nazi's take over Greece in WW2, who have been digging up other Demigods in order to create an answer to the US's supersoldier program.
Feeling unable to pick a side in the Greek civil war following WW2, she heads to the US with the rest of her comrades from the supersoldier program where she then makes her home and permantantly adopts the traditional greek/USA outfit. Possibly because another demi-god or descendant of a demigod born of Haephestus is working on the space program (where she gets her wierder bits of technology from), and the two team up to fight crime and find out what happened to Gods.
If Morrison's Wonder Woman was like his All-Star Superman and Batman and Robin, then I would be in favor of it. But if his Wonder Woman was an experimental mode of storytelling with implied action and schizophrenic panel hopping like in Final Crisis, then I would be against it.
Gail Simone has me a bit confused with Wonder Woman these days. It seems like she's trying to do something cool with the mythos. But she's doing so much dancing around the topic that it unclear what her intentions even are. I wonder if she even knows what she wants to do with the character.
On top of that, this week's issue seemed really. . .off. For being so vocal about feminism, this issue seemed really sexist to me. The whole issue was basically one big scripted cheesecake episode as WW and Black Canary go on a girl adventure to Tokyo and dress up like costumed arena fighters. Oh, and they have not one but two conversations about how Wonder Woman's boobs are world famous and are the second most known set of breasts in the world, behind Power Girl's of course.
The title of this topic is still true. Even in the hands of a competent feminist writer, this book is still as confused as ever on what it wants to be. This week felt like it was a self parody.
I've never read a Wonder Woman book in my life, but sat down and read all of Rise of the Olympian tonight. I didn't know who any of the supporting cast were, but I really enjoyed the story and the epic fight scenes with Genocide. It's definitely enough to get me interested in her character, which is more than her Justice League or event appearances have ever done.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
From Didio at FanExpo:
Recovering, DiDio remarked that Gail Simone is telling epic stories in “Wonder Woman,” and mentioned that DC is looking at renumbering the upcoming “Wonder Woman” #45, scheduled for next June, to #600.
“It would give her the same level of attention [in 2010] as Superman and Batman,” said DiDio. Both “Superman” and “Batman” will reach #700 in 2010. “My concern was, I wanted to keep ‘Wonder Woman’ as accessible as possible and as young as possible. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t want people to be overwhelmed by the numbering. But if we feel the numbering is important to the fans, then we’ll make that adjustment.”
I'm bumping this thread, because I decided to read an article by Carol Strickland over at CBR and it's pretty good stuff. A bit long, but good nonetheless. Either way, she seems to know what's up.
I find it sad and hilarious that Wonder Woman requires a letter campaign to get a marketing push for an issue renumbering, despite being a member of the 'Big 3'. Also, the letter campaign hasn't even hit 600 yet. I figured it would be above adn beyond that withina week, let alone a month. Batman or Superman comics would get a big shiny #600 and ads all over the place if they were renumbering, not unlike how Marvel's been handling their gimmicks, er, back to basics renumbering. Wonder Woman has to work for the same level of committment from their publisher.
I happened to reread Simone's Ends of the Earth four issure arc last night, and I think I liked it a lot more then the first time. Actually makes me want to go against my original trade-waiting decision and grab the Rise of the Olympians issues.
There's still something off about the run, though. Like Simone is trying to do a bunch of fun side stories to break the monotony of the regular storyline, without first establishing that solid core that we might be getting bored with.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
No, the only thing I can think of is when the John Byrne created "Superman" title was cancelled after Infinite Crisis it picked up the numbering of Adventures of Superman (which, before COIE, was just called Superman so it made sense, phew)
They also picked up the Flash where it was when Waid started his second run with the kids, treating the Flash: Fastest Man Alive 13 issues as something completely different.
There's really no need for DC to do this renumbering/number logic stuff. Even with (make that especially) Adventure Comics. Marvel looks like idiots doing it, especially with the way they're renumbering stuff now like the Hulk and Thor. New Avengers will probably pick up the old Avengers numbering soon, and Mighty will absorb West Coast Avengers with Force Works.
Yeah, I figured the fact that DC doesn't usually do this sort of thing was why they aren't planning to renumber WW.
And honestly, I don't equate changing numbers around with promoting the book. There'll be a slight sales bump for the momentous issue, but unless you make the book itself more appealling or increasing advertising you've got nothing.
I don't think the renumbering is as much a deal as you're making it. It doesn't make marvel look like "idiots". It gives them a small bump, and it gives them more of a claim to their history as a publisher.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
The way Hulk got to #600 was a joke, because the way they did it it only got them to #598:
Incredible Hulk Vol. 1 and 2 - 474 issues
Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 - 112 issues
Hulk (by Jeph Loeb currently) 12 issues
It's not like you need an elastic superhero to crunch the numbers.
And I believe Thor counted the Journey into Mystery issues where he didn't even appear in the comics to get to #600
There's still something off about the run, though. Like Simone is trying to do a bunch of fun side stories to break the monotony of the regular storyline, without first establishing that solid core that we might be getting bored with.
I agree, and I only started reading the book at #34 because Simone punches Rick Olney in the face (verbally, of course). She and Black Canary infiltrate a fight club in Asia when the overarching plot is to save Sarge Steel but she's hanging out in Japanese comic shops looking at a manga statue of herself. That's still a good scene, but priorities are a bit wonky.
And why do people hate Heinberg's opening run on Wonder Woman? I didn't mind it at all. Or maybe it was the Dosdson art that I liked so much. Because damn. The Dodsons. Damn.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
And why do people hate Heinberg's opening run on Wonder Woman? I didn't mind it at all. Or maybe it was the Dosdson art that I liked so much. Because damn. The Dodsons. Damn.
The delays really hurt it. #1 debuted with 110k copies, and it never had momentum to keep reader interest, and because it was so late they had to move on with the next arc before finishing up the first one. That's the kind of stuff you never saw outside of Image books until recently.
This is why there was the joke that after Infinite Crisis, there really was a "year without Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman" because all three characters had books with big creative teams that were frequently delayed (Detective Comics was the only one that came out on time)
Diana with a secret ID is also a weak point, something that just wasn't necessary and was a throwback to the 70's TV show (which I admit to having never seen an episode of). And I don't know if it was Heinberg or Piccoult who made it so that she has no powers when in Diana Prince mode, another throwback to the TV show.
The Dodsons were perfect for the book. Everybody loves the Dodsons. They should fight Amanda Conner and Jimmy Palmiotti and Mike Choi and Sandra Oback in a couples artist throwdown tagteam event.
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There are plenty of great ideas based around the world tree and kabbalah, but in the end it's just too derivative of other works like Thor.
Has anyone read the WW arc by Jodi Picoult? How does that factor into all of this?
I love the art style. This is for the weekly comic thing that's going to be happening right?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
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As for WW, I stand by my earlier posts. Not that it means anything.
With the Superman stuff, I don't consider it pressing, it's just something I wish was in effect. I'll agree that I've been loving recent Superman, I just meant as far as DC universe as a collective narrative, there's some major stuff I'd want to see changed about him.
Nah. I'm totally cool with them never trying that again.
Hey, so, today's DiDio interview with Newsarama he says this (in the context of Jason Todd running around in Batman): Yet... Nothing I've read here or just in general seems to make that case.
Agree with this 1000% Rucka's run is the only time I felt comic WW had a purpose/unified sense of character. JLU didn't do badly, but it's not at all the same as a monthly comic, and even there I think she suffered.
It will be interesting to see the direction that Simone takes the book in the coming months, since with this arc she basically severed all ties to Greek Mythology.
Ripped out his damn heart.
Feeling unable to pick a side in the Greek civil war following WW2, she heads to the US with the rest of her comrades from the supersoldier program where she then makes her home and permantantly adopts the traditional greek/USA outfit. Possibly because another demi-god or descendant of a demigod born of Haephestus is working on the space program (where she gets her wierder bits of technology from), and the two team up to fight crime and find out what happened to Gods.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
On top of that, this week's issue seemed really. . .off. For being so vocal about feminism, this issue seemed really sexist to me. The whole issue was basically one big scripted cheesecake episode as WW and Black Canary go on a girl adventure to Tokyo and dress up like costumed arena fighters. Oh, and they have not one but two conversations about how Wonder Woman's boobs are world famous and are the second most known set of breasts in the world, behind Power Girl's of course.
The title of this topic is still true. Even in the hands of a competent feminist writer, this book is still as confused as ever on what it wants to be. This week felt like it was a self parody.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
There's still something off about the run, though. Like Simone is trying to do a bunch of fun side stories to break the monotony of the regular storyline, without first establishing that solid core that we might be getting bored with.
No, the only thing I can think of is when the John Byrne created "Superman" title was cancelled after Infinite Crisis it picked up the numbering of Adventures of Superman (which, before COIE, was just called Superman so it made sense, phew)
They also picked up the Flash where it was when Waid started his second run with the kids, treating the Flash: Fastest Man Alive 13 issues as something completely different.
There's really no need for DC to do this renumbering/number logic stuff. Even with (make that especially) Adventure Comics. Marvel looks like idiots doing it, especially with the way they're renumbering stuff now like the Hulk and Thor. New Avengers will probably pick up the old Avengers numbering soon, and Mighty will absorb West Coast Avengers with Force Works.
And honestly, I don't equate changing numbers around with promoting the book. There'll be a slight sales bump for the momentous issue, but unless you make the book itself more appealling or increasing advertising you've got nothing.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
DC must seriously hate that their best shot in years to make WW the third pillar of the DCU was ruined by Heinberg.
Incredible Hulk Vol. 1 and 2 - 474 issues
Incredible Hulk Vol. 3 - 112 issues
Hulk (by Jeph Loeb currently) 12 issues
It's not like you need an elastic superhero to crunch the numbers.
And I believe Thor counted the Journey into Mystery issues where he didn't even appear in the comics to get to #600
I agree, and I only started reading the book at #34 because Simone punches Rick Olney in the face (verbally, of course). She and Black Canary infiltrate a fight club in Asia when the overarching plot is to save Sarge Steel but she's hanging out in Japanese comic shops looking at a manga statue of herself. That's still a good scene, but priorities are a bit wonky.
Marvel wanted to get their books up there, so they did.
Close enough.
But anyways, how about that Wonder Woman? She was pretty awesome in Red Son.
And why do people hate Heinberg's opening run on Wonder Woman? I didn't mind it at all. Or maybe it was the Dosdson art that I liked so much. Because damn. The Dodsons. Damn.
The delays really hurt it. #1 debuted with 110k copies, and it never had momentum to keep reader interest, and because it was so late they had to move on with the next arc before finishing up the first one. That's the kind of stuff you never saw outside of Image books until recently.
This is why there was the joke that after Infinite Crisis, there really was a "year without Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman" because all three characters had books with big creative teams that were frequently delayed (Detective Comics was the only one that came out on time)
Diana with a secret ID is also a weak point, something that just wasn't necessary and was a throwback to the 70's TV show (which I admit to having never seen an episode of). And I don't know if it was Heinberg or Piccoult who made it so that she has no powers when in Diana Prince mode, another throwback to the TV show.
The Dodsons were perfect for the book. Everybody loves the Dodsons. They should fight Amanda Conner and Jimmy Palmiotti and Mike Choi and Sandra Oback in a couples artist throwdown tagteam event.