Wait, Hercules just killed a bunch of street toughs. With his mythical weapons of overcompensation and overkill. Spider-Man could have easily subdued all of those people without dismembering a guy and turning the rest into stone.
Is this what he does now? Did he become the Punisher?
He really doesn't belong in the superhero game if he cannot beat thugs without killing them. Superheroes get away with vigilantism because their abilities allow them to overcome their opponents with minimal risk and damage to either party. Hercules straight up killed some people. Granted, in self-defense, but unlike the police, he has no legal authority to hunt down criminals.
Moreover, he has no innate power anymore. He would, in fact, have been killed if it wasn't for his weapons, which probably work just as well for actual police. If he doesn't have the skills to operate alone, he should join a team or something. Or quit.
And how did he get out of the train before it reached the next station? Does he have an artifact that allow him to teleport? Why didn't he use it to get backup?
Herc is about being a buddy comedy with his bro Cho and having sound effects like REDSHRRRT
This looks far too brooding to me.
Admittedly it is only six pages.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I too am confused about Hercules going Punisher on the thugs. It's one thing to kill mythological things (WW gets away with it all the time), but killing people would make Steve say he's really disappointed in Hercules and make him think about what he did.
Pak and Van Lente have been very clear that this is not Incredible Hercules. That ended in Chaos War.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I can't remember when he killed people, verily, unless we are taking his ancient myth stuff into account and even then he's killing Hydras (the monster) and Kevin Sorbo and all that. Ares is the one who would kill just for the hell of it (and even then he seemed to tone it down when fighting people).
It is Hercules. He is famous for murdering monsters and fighting wrongs. He hung out with Achilles. Do you remember what Achilles did to Hector? Really, its astonishing that he hasn't killed in so long. I am pretty sure Thor and Herc don't kill jut to be polite to their superfriends.
Honestly, killing doesn't turn someone into the Punisher. Cap and Thor have killed dozens of times. Hell, in a recent issue of New Avengers Wolverine just straight stabs dudes in the head. Spider-Man is the only dude who says no killing under any circumstances.
Mythological Hercules is a very different character from Marvel Hercules. And while I'm certain killing does happen in 616, these are street thugs. The Punisher's war is on crime, not international terrorism or mythological creatures, hence the comparison to the preview.
Hell, I'm not even sure that was Hercules. The hood could have been hiding Frank Castle (with beard).
There is such a thing as excessive force. Street thugs do not require killing if you're a superhero. Bucky could have handled it. Hawkeye certainly.
Even the new Spider-Girl.
[EDIT] Thanks, Fencingsax but I wrote that before I saw TexiKen's post.
So you're saying its okay to kill the nameless hordes of HYDRA even though they are made up of mostly average dudes trying to make money but its not okay to kill a bunch of gang members who just threatened to rape a woman and robbed you at knife-point?
So you're saying its okay to kill the nameless hordes of HYDRA even though they are made up of mostly average dudes trying to make money but its not okay to kill a bunch of gang members who just threatened to rape a woman and robbed you at knife-point?
In terms of story, certainly. In terms of morality, HYDRA agents are terrorists and would-be conquerors, meaning they are proper soldiers slash enemy combatants. Gang members are criminals and the justice system is designed to stop and rehabilitate criminals.
The rules of war are different from the rules of society.
Mythological Hercules is a very different character from Marvel Hercules.
No. He isn't. Pak and Van Lente have spent the last several years making it clear he isn't.
Then to put it in other words. the years between Mythological Hercules and Marvel Hercules have made him into a kinder, more humane person. There's a reason Pak and Van Lente's run has been about Hercules atoning for the actions of his mythological self.
He has been the Incredible Hercules for years now. He went through the high point of his life, he was the damn God of Heroes for a while! What has he gotten in return? His scheming step mother who tried to murder him rules by his fathers side and he has lost his godly might. His life kind of sucks right now.
He can't fight like he has for centuries, milennia even. He has to fall back onto his more brutal learnings just to survive. He isn't Steve Rogers or T'Challa, he has been an invincible super strong wrestler forever. He's gonna need to cut a few dudes if he still wants to be a hero.
He has been the Incredible Hercules for years now. He went through the high point of his life, he was the damn God of Heroes for a while! What has he gotten in return? His scheming step mother who tried to murder him rules by his fathers side and he has lost his godly might. His life kind of sucks right now.
He can't fight like he has for centuries, milennia even. He has to fall back onto his more brutal learnings just to survive. He isn't Steve Rogers or T'Challa, he has been an invincible super strong wrestler forever. He's gonna need to cut a few dudes if he still wants to be a hero.
You don't know this. This is a meta-explanation and I refuse to make stuff up to rationalize a change in tone I don't like.
Who knows, though, maybe the preview is incredibly misleading. I've said all I can say based on six pages, so I'm going to withdraw from this discussion.
Well if "Urban Conan" doesn't sound awesome to you then I don't know what to say
Pak and Van Lente are pretty clearly guys who do not want to keep a status quo for too long. They had a full arc plotted out with Incredible Herc and it's done now. This is something different, and different doesn't mean worse.
I'm not against Urban Conan. I'm against Hercules, who is not Conan, ridding Brooklyn of crime by killing every single criminal. I'm against what happened in the preview.
However, I personally prefer a character that changes and evolves with his situation. I love drunk boisterous Herc, I love him to death. However, he has been that for 40 years. He just fought on behalf of all of creation and got nothing but pain in return.
If he remained the silly strongman in the face of that, if would cheapen his character. He has become more human than ever in recent years, and human emotion is a very volatile thing.
Honestly I'd prefer a failed new spin on a character over more of the same.
And I'm not massively into the "oh man now Herc is a gritty urban warrior," though so far he has killed some thugs. It aint right for him to do so, but maybe that is a plot point in the series? I don't know.
Anyway this is Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente
So it should be great.
EDIT: Though I will admit that if you loved Incredible Hercules and Amadeus Cho having awesome mythic adventures then you could be forgiven for saying "hey, you got urban warrior on my nice clean high powered fantasy champion." They are different, and I suspect that some Incredible Herc fans will not pick this up.
So I can see TeaSpoon's point. If you loved Iron Man because Iron Man was all about a dude using high tech armour and then one day he lost his armour and started using swords and shit while fighting street punks you could be forgiven for questioning that particular character change. I mean it might turn out great, but if it does probably for different reasons.
Still, I'll give it a go. Like I said, Fred Van Lente and Greg Pak.
Eh, the way I see it, the last time Hercules was mortal, killing and murder was just a part of life. And it wasn't just monsters he killed - before he "died" and became a god, he killed entire cities and islands full of people. A guy from that kind of society isn't going to be the nicest guy around once he's mortal again. Especially when he's got such cool toys to play with now .
In fact a good arc of this could be "Hercules, you became a modern hero by virtue of your power. Now you have to become a modern hero by virtue of your heart."
Personally if I saw insane cultists attempt to rape and murder I wouldn't be to cut up if some guy hacked off one of their arms, presumabely his raping arm, and turned 'em all to stone.
Hercs been through some tough shit as of late and as long as he doesn't go all emo I'm looking forward to seeing how a "Chos Bro" deals with living a serious, mortal life. With god weapons.
Those who read and enjoyed S.H.I.E.L.D. might want to look at the preview for Secret Warriors. Also, I'm not sure but I think Marvel's trying to homage more or less Golden Age Superman in the preview for Wolverine/Hercules.
I always trusted Hickman to tie FF, S.H.I.E.L.D and Secret Warriors together and it is finally coming to a head! Plus, you know, a Man-Thing centric issue/arc of T-bolts is gonna rock.
McKone isn't drawing the book anymore as of last issue
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
You're right, my bad. Veil and Mettle threw me off, they looks as stiff and expressionless as when McKone drew them. Sean Chen, man, you're better than that bro.
Speedball still reminds me of Booster Gold in that image.
I actually thought the last issue was good. I could do without recapping Booster's whole origin every few issues, but it was a good story.
Ultimately, my problem with Booster Gold as a whole, is that it's a book where the writers (all of them) could have done literally anything. Any story they could possibly want to tell, within the confines of the DCU and its history. And they instead all chose to do the same few stories (in a broad manner of speaking), over and over again.
It reminds me of Deadpool a little bit, in that way. Still, despite my problems with Giffen and DeMatteis's most recent arc as a whole, their Booster Gold has easily topped the Johns/Katz and Jurgens runs.
Preview for new Booster Gold. It looks good, but I don't know. How has the book been?
Munch, you still disliking it?
Following up on this: This week's issue of Booster Gold might be the worst one yet. Unbearably maudlin, with a boring, stretched out plot centered entirely around the newly introduced Perforated Man whining about his life.
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Is this what he does now? Did he become the Punisher?
He really doesn't belong in the superhero game if he cannot beat thugs without killing them. Superheroes get away with vigilantism because their abilities allow them to overcome their opponents with minimal risk and damage to either party. Hercules straight up killed some people. Granted, in self-defense, but unlike the police, he has no legal authority to hunt down criminals.
Moreover, he has no innate power anymore. He would, in fact, have been killed if it wasn't for his weapons, which probably work just as well for actual police. If he doesn't have the skills to operate alone, he should join a team or something. Or quit.
And how did he get out of the train before it reached the next station? Does he have an artifact that allow him to teleport? Why didn't he use it to get backup?
Herc is about being a buddy comedy with his bro Cho and having sound effects like REDSHRRRT
This looks far too brooding to me.
Admittedly it is only six pages.
Pak and Van Lente have been very clear that this is not Incredible Hercules. That ended in Chaos War.
Also the whole killing thing with Herc's origin and all
Honestly, killing doesn't turn someone into the Punisher. Cap and Thor have killed dozens of times. Hell, in a recent issue of New Avengers Wolverine just straight stabs dudes in the head. Spider-Man is the only dude who says no killing under any circumstances.
Just fyi, they were talking about the original hydra.
Hell, I'm not even sure that was Hercules. The hood could have been hiding Frank Castle (with beard).
There is such a thing as excessive force. Street thugs do not require killing if you're a superhero. Bucky could have handled it. Hawkeye certainly.
Even the new Spider-Girl.
[EDIT] Thanks, Fencingsax but I wrote that before I saw TexiKen's post.
No. He isn't. Pak and Van Lente have spent the last several years making it clear he isn't.
In terms of story, certainly. In terms of morality, HYDRA agents are terrorists and would-be conquerors, meaning they are proper soldiers slash enemy combatants. Gang members are criminals and the justice system is designed to stop and rehabilitate criminals.
The rules of war are different from the rules of society.
Then to put it in other words. the years between Mythological Hercules and Marvel Hercules have made him into a kinder, more humane person. There's a reason Pak and Van Lente's run has been about Hercules atoning for the actions of his mythological self.
He can't fight like he has for centuries, milennia even. He has to fall back onto his more brutal learnings just to survive. He isn't Steve Rogers or T'Challa, he has been an invincible super strong wrestler forever. He's gonna need to cut a few dudes if he still wants to be a hero.
When Ares comes back they'll get sunglasses and become a military squad.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30950
You don't know this. This is a meta-explanation and I refuse to make stuff up to rationalize a change in tone I don't like.
Who knows, though, maybe the preview is incredibly misleading. I've said all I can say based on six pages, so I'm going to withdraw from this discussion.
Best bros.
Pak and Van Lente are pretty clearly guys who do not want to keep a status quo for too long. They had a full arc plotted out with Incredible Herc and it's done now. This is something different, and different doesn't mean worse.
And now I really am going to stop posting.
However, I personally prefer a character that changes and evolves with his situation. I love drunk boisterous Herc, I love him to death. However, he has been that for 40 years. He just fought on behalf of all of creation and got nothing but pain in return.
If he remained the silly strongman in the face of that, if would cheapen his character. He has become more human than ever in recent years, and human emotion is a very volatile thing.
Honestly I'd prefer a failed new spin on a character over more of the same.
And I'm not massively into the "oh man now Herc is a gritty urban warrior," though so far he has killed some thugs. It aint right for him to do so, but maybe that is a plot point in the series? I don't know.
Anyway this is Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente
So it should be great.
EDIT: Though I will admit that if you loved Incredible Hercules and Amadeus Cho having awesome mythic adventures then you could be forgiven for saying "hey, you got urban warrior on my nice clean high powered fantasy champion." They are different, and I suspect that some Incredible Herc fans will not pick this up.
So I can see TeaSpoon's point. If you loved Iron Man because Iron Man was all about a dude using high tech armour and then one day he lost his armour and started using swords and shit while fighting street punks you could be forgiven for questioning that particular character change. I mean it might turn out great, but if it does probably for different reasons.
Still, I'll give it a go. Like I said, Fred Van Lente and Greg Pak.
In fact a good arc of this could be "Hercules, you became a modern hero by virtue of your power. Now you have to become a modern hero by virtue of your heart."
Hercs been through some tough shit as of late and as long as he doesn't go all emo I'm looking forward to seeing how a "Chos Bro" deals with living a serious, mortal life. With god weapons.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
Seriously, is it so hard to draw a character on-model? The dude's supposed to be built like Spider-Man, not Captain America.
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and here are more Marvel previews for next week. Yay Annihilators.
McKone isn't drawing the book anymore as of last issue
Speedball still reminds me of Booster Gold in that image.
Preview for new Booster Gold. It looks good, but I don't know. How has the book been?
Munch, you still disliking it?
Ultimately, my problem with Booster Gold as a whole, is that it's a book where the writers (all of them) could have done literally anything. Any story they could possibly want to tell, within the confines of the DCU and its history. And they instead all chose to do the same few stories (in a broad manner of speaking), over and over again.
It reminds me of Deadpool a little bit, in that way. Still, despite my problems with Giffen and DeMatteis's most recent arc as a whole, their Booster Gold has easily topped the Johns/Katz and Jurgens runs.
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