This is good. Don't confuse the rest of us with the tarsand semi-retards who gave up on high school because they think $40k a year with lots of overtime makes them John fucking Galt. I also forgot that Ontario had no CPC MPs.
So how about Harper naming Doer our new ambassador to the United States? Doer seems pretty alright, but will this harm the NDP in Manitoba and flip the province to the Conservatives?
That the NDP will only worrie me when they can actually get voted in.
That's the interesting part, left leaning people had an alternative in the Liberals, but the Liberal party is not trusted out here. Alberta voted PC for years, but it never amounted to much. As the Liberal majority grew and ended up holding power, despite western Canada being nearly united in voting for a conservative party, dissatisfaction grew. So the right wing parties began to combine. Now there is no moderate party for right leaning voters because if the right has two separate parties, one for moderates and one for extremists, then the moderates will never be able to do more than vote for an official opposition. If they're lucky. While the East can vote for two different leftist parties and still form a majority government with one of them.
Doer wasn't exactly far left NDP. IIRC, all three major parties in Manitoba are fairly centrist. If the province does go back to the Conservatives, the change won't be nearly as drastic as it would be in most provinces.
As for Andrew_Jay, the guys spends a bit of time in TO and all of a sudden he can't even remember anything outside of the 416... Just typical.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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So how about Harper naming Doer our new ambassador to the United States? Doer seems pretty alright, but will this harm the NDP in Manitoba and flip the province to the Conservatives?
I think Doer is a great appointee. He has the right balance of likeability and competence to be an effective advocate for Canadian issues. He's also established relationships with US politicians that will probably come in handy. And as a self-described social democrat, his politics are reasonably in line with the majority/prevailing positions in the US.
The downside is that Manitoba--and the provincial NDP--are losing a strong, capable, and generally well-liked leader, and there's no clear successor that I know of to fill the void. Losing Doer could be bad for the NDP, if there were a strong PC opposition, but McFadyen is no Filmon. He's not done much to grow the party, and has never managed to keep any leads the PCs may have gained in the polls.
Edit: And an_alt isn't far off the mark. The PCs here aren't terribly different from the NDP, particularly the NDP under Doer. He's had a pragmatic rather than ideological approach, for the most part. Nevertheless, I'm not too keen on a Conservative government, since it'd mean spending cuts in areas where spending tends to be good for me. They'd also probably try to privatize Hydro or something, which isn't really what we need either.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
I've been doing some reading on global climate change and arctic ice breakup, and when researching what we're doing about protecting canadian sovereignty up in the north, came across the planned northern naval base and 8 ice breakers by the conservative party.
I'm searching around now but is 8 ice breakers with aerial support enough to protect the large area of northern nunavut, the territories, and the beaufort sea? There's also some controversy about the effectiveness of the icebreakers under construction, but that's typical defense-parliment squabble. I've having trouble figuring out if there's any weight to the argument, especially considering the rate of ice melt in the north. And lastly the first ship comes out of drydock in 2014, is that too late to join the party? There are 6 icebreakers in the coastguard to serve in the meantime.
That the NDP will only worrie me when they can actually get voted in.
That's the interesting part, left leaning people had an alternative in the Liberals, but the Liberal party is not trusted out here. Alberta voted PC for years, but it never amounted to much. As the Liberal majority grew and ended up holding power, despite western Canada being nearly united in voting for a conservative party, dissatisfaction grew. So the right wing parties began to combine. Now there is no moderate party for right leaning voters because if the right has two separate parties, one for moderates and one for extremists, then the moderates will never be able to do more than vote for an official opposition. If they're lucky. While the East can vote for two different leftist parties and still form a majority government with one of them.
But yeah, fuck those Westerners.
The Liberals are not "left". They are centre.
And the centre-right PC party got pushed out of Ontario by the Liberals (this is pretty standard for the 2 parties though) and got pushed out of the West by Reform. They got undercut and swallowed up by the West's embrace of US-style rightwingitude.
The Prairies suck the Reform teat and then bitch and whine because they think they should be more important then they are.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
The Prairies suck the Reform teat and then bitch and whine because they think they should be more important then they are.
I think the griping is legitimate when a Prime Minister can flip the bird to the entirety of Western Canada (Not hyperbole) and still have majority support. Let me ask you this: Why do YOU think Alberta votes almost unitedly for a conservative party?
The Prairies suck the Reform teat and then bitch and whine because they think they should be more important then they are.
I think the griping is legitimate when a Prime Minister can flip the bird to the entirety of Western Canada (Not hyperbole) and still have majority support.
Welcome to Democracy. Power is, in some way, proportional to population. Ontario alone is more then twice the size of all the prairies combined.
Like I said, the West thinks they should be more important. Your displaying the exact attitude.
Let me ask you this: Why do YOU think Alberta votes almost unitedly for a conservative party?
Provincially or Federally?
Hell, either way it's basically a long held grudge against one of the Liberal parties.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
There's lots of Ontario outside of Toronto. Pickering, Hamilton, Oshawa, Niagra, K/W, Kingston, Ottawa, cottages, lakes, trees, and gas stations.
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks and...
So, Gary Doer - NDP Premier of Saskatchewan - has stepped down to be named by Harper as the new ambassador to the U.S.
Saskatchewan!?!?
Whoops, meant Manitoba.
It's all the same :P
I WILL REND YOUR SOULLLL!
We can talk all day about East vs. West, and that's a pretty bad grudge, but sometimes it seems like the Manitoba/Saskatchewan relationship could be bottled and sold as a new perfume, Kontempt by Calvin Klein.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Welcome to Democracy. Power is, in some way, proportional to population. Ontario alone is more then twice the size of all the prairies combined.
Like I said, the West thinks they should be more important. Your displaying the exact attitude.
So you claim Western voters are all stupid fuckheads (Paraphrase). I say that the only reason a party like the current Conservative party got into power was because of how long the west was marginalized by the power differential, all started by a Prime Minister who told the entire west to fuck off (But he made sure he got his oil on the cheap).
And now you're saying I think the West should be more important than they are. Well thank you for being a dickhead. I'm not asking for the west to have a stronger voice, I'm asking for the federal government to actually give a shit about the opinions of the majority of western voters.
You know, those people who have just as much right to representation as you, despite them not thinking the way you want them to.
Welcome to Democracy. Power is, in some way, proportional to population. Ontario alone is more then twice the size of all the prairies combined.
Like I said, the West thinks they should be more important. Your displaying the exact attitude.
So you claim Western voters are all stupid fuckheads (Paraphrase). I say that the only reason a party like the current Conservative party got into power was because of how long the west was marginalized by the power differential, all started by a Prime Minister who told the entire west to fuck off (But he made sure he got his oil on the cheap).
And now you're saying I think the West should be more important than they are. Well thank you for being a dickhead. I'm not asking for the west to have a stronger voice, I'm asking for the federal government to actually give a shit about the opinions of the majority of western voters.
You know, those people who have just as much right to representation as you, despite them not thinking the way you want them to.
They have a right to representation. They just don't have a right to that representation being worth more per MP/capita/whatever then people in the East's representation.
And of course there's a power differential. Ontario and Quebec between them make up like 2/3rds of the people in the fucking country. The power differential is unavoidable unless you wanna marginalize Eastern voters for having the gall to live in populous areas.
The West, and Alberta especially, like to whine about this sort of shit because they want to be more important then the current system says they are. "No, I wanna be the centre of Canada!!!!".
And I didn't say they were stupid fuckheads, I said they were whiners who vote almost exclusively for the Republican-lite moron party. Beyond their whininess, alot of the politics of the parties they support are odious (or come married with odious social issues).
Rural voters are already disproportionately represented. What more could they possibly want?
I'm convinced that western populism has little to do with wanting western provinces to be fairly represented -- they are -- and everything to do with right-wing ideologues who think they're members of a mythical "silent majority" nursing their idiotic persecution complex. Western populists literally will not be satisfied until the Prime Minister is directly appointed by the board of directors of EnCana Corporation.
And this is why inter-provincial relations are akin to the entire family getting together at Christmas or Thanksgiving. No one really wants to be there, and they barely tolerate each other.
in the words of Glen Foster: "Canada's not a country, it's a bunch of little countries. It's like Europe, except they're starting to get along with one another."
Rural voters are already disproportionately represented. What more could they possibly want?
I'm convinced that western populism has little to do with wanting western provinces to be fairly represented -- they are -- and everything to do with right-wing ideologues who think they're members of a mythical "silent majority" nursing their idiotic persecution complex. Western populists literally will not be satisfied until the Prime Minister is directly appointed by the board of directors of EnCana Corporation.
Nah, it's got none of the flavour of the "We are the Silent Majority" bullshit. They don't think Ontario REALLY wants to support them.
They think that they should be in charge. And that any system that doesn't make them the most important is obviously biased against them.
Rural voters are already disproportionately represented. What more could they possibly want?
There ARE cities in the west, you know. We're not all farmers and ranchers. Some of us actually have high school diplomas, too!
And you guys are ignoring what I'm saying in favor of preserving your prejudice against all western voters.
We've heard everything you've said. It's just you can't get past the fact that "Western Disenfranchisement" is rooted in the idea that THEY should much more powerful .... because they feel like they should be.
There ARE cities in the west, you know. We're not all farmers and ranchers. Some of us actually have high school diplomas, too!
And you guys are ignoring what I'm saying in favor of preserving your prejudice against all western voters.
I am a western voter so how can I be prejudiced against them?
I just think the fact that every western populist I've encountered also happens to be an ideological conservative says a lot about the Reform/western populist movement as a whole.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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Hey we voted in an NDP candidate in an Edmonton riding! Progress is being made, though it's slow.
The CPC candidate in Strathcona was actually so pissed he made a statement himself, instead of sending his assistant to pretend to be him.
Yeeaaahhh but that is the most hippy riding in all of Edmonton, and probably Alberta. Well.. there are a lot of hippies in Canmore and Banff... but yeah.
I think its more of an anomaly than any indication of change.
That the NDP will only worrie me when they can actually get voted in.
That's the interesting part, left leaning people had an alternative in the Liberals, but the Liberal party is not trusted out here. Alberta voted PC for years, but it never amounted to much. As the Liberal majority grew and ended up holding power, despite western Canada being nearly united in voting for a conservative party, dissatisfaction grew. So the right wing parties began to combine. Now there is no moderate party for right leaning voters because if the right has two separate parties, one for moderates and one for extremists, then the moderates will never be able to do more than vote for an official opposition. If they're lucky. While the East can vote for two different leftist parties and still form a majority government with one of them.
But yeah, fuck those Westerners.
The Liberals are not "left". They are centre.
And the centre-right PC party got pushed out of Ontario by the Liberals (this is pretty standard for the 2 parties though) and got pushed out of the West by Reform. They got undercut and swallowed up by the West's embrace of US-style rightwingitude.
The Prairies suck the Reform teat and then bitch and whine because they think they should be more important then they are.
Thank you for not understanding the diverse political culture of the West. When you say "The West" and are just talking about Alberta, it can really piss off people from BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. The reasons why people voted for the Reform and vote now for the Tories at the federal level are very different between the provinces. And if you look at voting patterns, you'll see that the NDP is actually the second party of the West - not the Liberals. And they also happen to be to the left of the Liberals, rather than the right.
Under your "Western redneck" theory, this makes no sense. Why would Westerners vote for the NDP rather than the Liberals?
Because the unhappiness isn't about social issues, it isn't even about economic issues* - it's federalism. People in the West are incredibly unhappy how Ontario and Quebec have dominated the federation forever, even though that the West is growing and becoming the economic driver of the country. Where have the Liberals traditionally gotten support? Ontario and Quebec.
Can you blame someone for voting against the party that never had its interests at heart?
*Almost overwhelmingly, division on social and economic issues breaks down between urban/rural and rich/poor rather than regionally.
EDIT: Preston Manning's slogan forever was, "The West wants in!"
Because the unhappiness isn't about social issues, it isn't even about economic issues* - it's federalism. People in the West are incredibly unhappy how Ontario and Quebec have dominated the federation forever, even though that the West is growing and becoming the economic driver of the country. Where have the Liberals traditionally gotten support? Ontario and Quebec.
Yes, we already established this like 20 posts ago.
Can you blame someone for voting against the party that never had its interests at heart?
Depends who the "other guy" is.
In this case, yes, I can.
EDIT: Preston Manning's slogan forever was, "The West wants in!"
I think the moment I liked that guy the most was right as he was retiring. He did an interview on CBC that really made me respect the guy. He was intelligent and had a bunch of good ideas. Alot of it never seemed to make it to the forefront of what the party was about though. Sadly, the Reform party has gone into the pits since then.
Can we please use the right names for the areas of our country as I learned them in School.
Western Province = BC
Prarie Provinces = Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba
Eastern Provinces = Ontario, Quebec
Maritimes = PEI, Newfoundland, New Bruswick, Nova Scotia
Territories = Yukon, NWT, Nunavut
These are the ones I perfer as hell there is only one wesstern province there is no way in hell manitoba can be considered west since if you folded the country in half the fold would be in Manitoba. The 3 prarie provinces have way more to do with each other than they do with BC.
Please stop lumping British Columbians in with the rednecks from the flat provinces please!
(/tongue firmly planted in cheek, except for the AB,SK,MB being western thing)
You can't, Mom2Kat, deny that 'The West', as generally referred to, included BC and the Prairie Provinces. I've never actually encountered any situation where 'The West' only referred to BC and not the Prairies. However, I have run into situations where 'The West' has been added to with 'and BC' so sometimes the province of BC is considered separate than 'The West'... Generally, when people are talking about the West, they mean the Prairies and BC, but often they exclude BC because it is such a different landscape. Or, they really just mean Alberta, because they like to lump the small representation of us into one easily villanisable group.
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So how about Harper naming Doer our new ambassador to the United States? Doer seems pretty alright, but will this harm the NDP in Manitoba and flip the province to the Conservatives?
It's all the same :P
That's the interesting part, left leaning people had an alternative in the Liberals, but the Liberal party is not trusted out here. Alberta voted PC for years, but it never amounted to much. As the Liberal majority grew and ended up holding power, despite western Canada being nearly united in voting for a conservative party, dissatisfaction grew. So the right wing parties began to combine. Now there is no moderate party for right leaning voters because if the right has two separate parties, one for moderates and one for extremists, then the moderates will never be able to do more than vote for an official opposition. If they're lucky. While the East can vote for two different leftist parties and still form a majority government with one of them.
But yeah, fuck those Westerners.
As for Andrew_Jay, the guys spends a bit of time in TO and all of a sudden he can't even remember anything outside of the 416... Just typical.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
The downside is that Manitoba--and the provincial NDP--are losing a strong, capable, and generally well-liked leader, and there's no clear successor that I know of to fill the void. Losing Doer could be bad for the NDP, if there were a strong PC opposition, but McFadyen is no Filmon. He's not done much to grow the party, and has never managed to keep any leads the PCs may have gained in the polls.
Edit: And an_alt isn't far off the mark. The PCs here aren't terribly different from the NDP, particularly the NDP under Doer. He's had a pragmatic rather than ideological approach, for the most part. Nevertheless, I'm not too keen on a Conservative government, since it'd mean spending cuts in areas where spending tends to be good for me. They'd also probably try to privatize Hydro or something, which isn't really what we need either.
Don't feel bad. Torontonians still don't realise that Ontario doesn't end just past North Bay.
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I'm searching around now but is 8 ice breakers with aerial support enough to protect the large area of northern nunavut, the territories, and the beaufort sea? There's also some controversy about the effectiveness of the icebreakers under construction, but that's typical defense-parliment squabble. I've having trouble figuring out if there's any weight to the argument, especially considering the rate of ice melt in the north. And lastly the first ship comes out of drydock in 2014, is that too late to join the party? There are 6 icebreakers in the coastguard to serve in the meantime.
http://www.conservative.ca/EN/4739/87277
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro-pro/Artic-eng.asp
http://www.casr.ca/id-iqaluitport3.htm
The Liberals are not "left". They are centre.
And the centre-right PC party got pushed out of Ontario by the Liberals (this is pretty standard for the 2 parties though) and got pushed out of the West by Reform. They got undercut and swallowed up by the West's embrace of US-style rightwingitude.
The Prairies suck the Reform teat and then bitch and whine because they think they should be more important then they are.
I think the griping is legitimate when a Prime Minister can flip the bird to the entirety of Western Canada (Not hyperbole) and still have majority support. Let me ask you this: Why do YOU think Alberta votes almost unitedly for a conservative party?
Welcome to Democracy. Power is, in some way, proportional to population. Ontario alone is more then twice the size of all the prairies combined.
Like I said, the West thinks they should be more important. Your displaying the exact attitude.
Provincially or Federally?
Hell, either way it's basically a long held grudge against one of the Liberal parties.
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks
And rocks and trees and trees and rocks and...
...wattterrrrrr!
I WILL REND YOUR SOULLLL!
We can talk all day about East vs. West, and that's a pretty bad grudge, but sometimes it seems like the Manitoba/Saskatchewan relationship could be bottled and sold as a new perfume, Kontempt by Calvin Klein.
So you claim Western voters are all stupid fuckheads (Paraphrase). I say that the only reason a party like the current Conservative party got into power was because of how long the west was marginalized by the power differential, all started by a Prime Minister who told the entire west to fuck off (But he made sure he got his oil on the cheap).
And now you're saying I think the West should be more important than they are. Well thank you for being a dickhead. I'm not asking for the west to have a stronger voice, I'm asking for the federal government to actually give a shit about the opinions of the majority of western voters.
You know, those people who have just as much right to representation as you, despite them not thinking the way you want them to.
They have a right to representation. They just don't have a right to that representation being worth more per MP/capita/whatever then people in the East's representation.
And of course there's a power differential. Ontario and Quebec between them make up like 2/3rds of the people in the fucking country. The power differential is unavoidable unless you wanna marginalize Eastern voters for having the gall to live in populous areas.
The West, and Alberta especially, like to whine about this sort of shit because they want to be more important then the current system says they are. "No, I wanna be the centre of Canada!!!!".
And I didn't say they were stupid fuckheads, I said they were whiners who vote almost exclusively for the Republican-lite moron party. Beyond their whininess, alot of the politics of the parties they support are odious (or come married with odious social issues).
I'm convinced that western populism has little to do with wanting western provinces to be fairly represented -- they are -- and everything to do with right-wing ideologues who think they're members of a mythical "silent majority" nursing their idiotic persecution complex. Western populists literally will not be satisfied until the Prime Minister is directly appointed by the board of directors of EnCana Corporation.
in the words of Glen Foster: "Canada's not a country, it's a bunch of little countries. It's like Europe, except they're starting to get along with one another."
I never finish anyth
*ahem*Manitoba*ahem*
There ARE cities in the west, you know. We're not all farmers and ranchers. Some of us actually have high school diplomas, too!
And you guys are ignoring what I'm saying in favor of preserving your prejudice against all western voters.
Yeah, we've been over that already.
I never finish anyth
Well excuse me for spending most of the workday actually working. :P
It's only less than half a page late, anyway.
Nah, it's got none of the flavour of the "We are the Silent Majority" bullshit. They don't think Ontario REALLY wants to support them.
They think that they should be in charge. And that any system that doesn't make them the most important is obviously biased against them.
We've heard everything you've said. It's just you can't get past the fact that "Western Disenfranchisement" is rooted in the idea that THEY should much more powerful .... because they feel like they should be.
It's not a sound basis for much of anything.
The CPC candidate in Strathcona was actually so pissed he made a statement himself, instead of sending his assistant to pretend to be him.
I never finish anyth
I just think the fact that every western populist I've encountered also happens to be an ideological conservative says a lot about the Reform/western populist movement as a whole.
Right-wing populism really is the worst populism.
In all seriousness, Saskatchewan and Manitoba are pretty much the two provinces where the NDP is strong, which was why I confused them.
Oh, I'm just giving you a hard time. The shot at Toronto was just a bonus.
Just as a head up though, I'll probably be using it to take cheap shots at you for years to come. :P
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Yeeaaahhh but that is the most hippy riding in all of Edmonton, and probably Alberta. Well.. there are a lot of hippies in Canmore and Banff... but yeah.
I think its more of an anomaly than any indication of change.
Thank you for not understanding the diverse political culture of the West. When you say "The West" and are just talking about Alberta, it can really piss off people from BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. The reasons why people voted for the Reform and vote now for the Tories at the federal level are very different between the provinces. And if you look at voting patterns, you'll see that the NDP is actually the second party of the West - not the Liberals. And they also happen to be to the left of the Liberals, rather than the right.
Under your "Western redneck" theory, this makes no sense. Why would Westerners vote for the NDP rather than the Liberals?
Because the unhappiness isn't about social issues, it isn't even about economic issues* - it's federalism. People in the West are incredibly unhappy how Ontario and Quebec have dominated the federation forever, even though that the West is growing and becoming the economic driver of the country. Where have the Liberals traditionally gotten support? Ontario and Quebec.
Can you blame someone for voting against the party that never had its interests at heart?
*Almost overwhelmingly, division on social and economic issues breaks down between urban/rural and rich/poor rather than regionally.
EDIT: Preston Manning's slogan forever was, "The West wants in!"
Yes, we already established this like 20 posts ago.
Depends who the "other guy" is.
In this case, yes, I can.
I think the moment I liked that guy the most was right as he was retiring. He did an interview on CBC that really made me respect the guy. He was intelligent and had a bunch of good ideas. Alot of it never seemed to make it to the forefront of what the party was about though. Sadly, the Reform party has gone into the pits since then.
Wow, Harper letting large corporations write his legislation for him.
/shock
Holy shit.
Western Province = BC
Prarie Provinces = Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba
Eastern Provinces = Ontario, Quebec
Maritimes = PEI, Newfoundland, New Bruswick, Nova Scotia
Territories = Yukon, NWT, Nunavut
These are the ones I perfer as hell there is only one wesstern province there is no way in hell manitoba can be considered west since if you folded the country in half the fold would be in Manitoba. The 3 prarie provinces have way more to do with each other than they do with BC.
Please stop lumping British Columbians in with the rednecks from the flat provinces please!
(/tongue firmly planted in cheek, except for the AB,SK,MB being western thing)
Layton and Dion at Ottawa. Harper when the walls fell! Harper, his arms wide!
excuse me while I go vomit
So calling them "the West" is a pretty odd deal, I think.
And never call Newfies Maritimers or Maritimers Newfies. Those are two terms you don't want to mix.
I never finish anyth
As an American, I have to say - what the fuck, Canada?
Ummm... what?
While I find it a little surprising that they granted refugee status on this basis, it's not really out of left field.