The issue is the substitution of irony for authenticity without actually rebelling against much in the process. This isn't the 1920's. Dadaism already went there.
Irony is the artistic intentional medium of the 20th century, so to attach it on to hipsters is pretty myopic.
Also, yes, we have all read DFW's excellent essay on irony. But the answer isn't simply to regress back to an aesthetic realism, and I think a number of artists are doing a laudable job of forging a new path between irony and realism.
I want a Bieber Fever shirt, but, like, a home made one complete with a scary black and while silk-screening of his face and elementary school bulletin board lettering.
The issue is the substitution of irony for authenticity without actually rebelling against much in the process. This isn't the 1920's. Dadaism already went there.
Irony is the artistic intentional medium of the 20th century, so to attach it on to hipsters is pretty myopic.
Also, yes, we have all read DFW's excellent essay on irony. But the answer isn't simply to regress back to an aesthetic realism, and I think a number of artists are doing a laudable job of forging a new path between irony and realism.
And all of them actually produced culture. Hipsters seem to do little more then to sort through the refuse pile of cultures gone by.
Problem One: If hipsters hadn't produced a culture, by what rubric would you then accredit hipsterism to someone?
Problem Two: How have other subcultures created other cultures by any means other than re-appropriating the detritus of mainstream culture?
Problem One: Adapting a mixture of various other cultures allow for the creation of a culture. That does not mean that the culture produces anything of value.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
The issue is the substitution of irony for authenticity without actually rebelling against much in the process. This isn't the 1920's. Dadaism already went there.
I find that "false irony" that you speak of is a lot of times a construct of critics. If anything, the music and ideals are nostalgic more than ironic. And if that's bothersome to you, that is understandable.
The issue is the substitution of irony for authenticity without actually rebelling against much in the process. This isn't the 1920's. Dadaism already went there.
Irony is the artistic intentional medium of the 20th century, so to attach it on to hipsters is pretty myopic.
Also, yes, we have all read DFW's excellent essay on irony. But the answer isn't simply to regress back to an aesthetic realism, and I think a number of artists are doing a laudable job of forging a new path between irony and realism.
This could lead to an interesting discussion. Or I could go to sleep.
Decisions.
moniker on
0
Options
Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
The issue is the substitution of irony for authenticity without actually rebelling against much in the process. This isn't the 1920's. Dadaism already went there.
Irony is the artistic intentional medium of the 20th century, so to attach it on to hipsters is pretty myopic.
Also, yes, we have all read DFW's excellent essay on irony. But the answer isn't simply to regress back to an aesthetic realism, and I think a number of artists are doing a laudable job of forging a new path between irony and realism.
Dallas Fort-Worth?
Yes, Dallas Fort-Worth all got together and wrote a communal essay at St. Mark's. Really a commendable civic effort.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
I don’t know what world you live in where young people aren’t creating anything
i was so inspired by my rant here that i wrote a facebook note and posted it about hipster hate and how retarded it is
Care to copy it?
Well, a lot of it was the post I just posted in the last chat.
But for those who are interested here's the longer rant:
On Hipsters
Just something I've been meaning to get off my chest.
Over the past couple of years the term "hipster" has been thrown about more and more. More often than not, especially recently, it is used disparagingly. The problem, though, is that people now DEFINE a hipster as someone who is judgmental, arrogant, and interested in only appearances.
So they're hating on people... who are defined as people that you would automatically hate anyway. It's like saying "man I can't stand people I can't stand." Which doesn't say anything.
But now we come to the part that is really quite aggravating. You see, dressing in the way "hipsters" dress and liking the things "hipsters" like is so common among young people, because every human being on earth is a social creature and we dress and act like the people we associate ourselves with. That's part of being human.
So you have a whole group of people getting all high and mighty about a caricature they set up beforehand to be annoying, by definition. Then that ire is directed at people who don't deserve it. For instance, walking down the street you might see someone wearing a scarf. What 20 years ago might just be seen as a scarf now becomes a sign that the wearer is that caricature, that archetype. "Oh those goddamned hipsters are taking over <local area of local city>."
Are there people who are shallow, only interested in looking smart, who wear cardigan sweaters and black square glasses and who sip latte's and pretend to be into poetry to score dates? Yes. But there are also shallow poseurs in other groups. There are people who only pretend to be into classical music to score dates who don't dress and act like hipsters, who rather dress in suits and drive mercedes.
The point is, there are shallow assholes in every walk of life. The problem with the term "hipster" when used as a pejorative is that it falsely equates negative personality aspects with other, unrelated habits. Your particular musical preferences, dressing habits, and favorite coffee shops have absolutely nothing to do with whether you are a shallow, arrogant poseur. So a term that combines the two ends up lumping perfectly normal people who just happen to have a certain style of fashion and musical taste in with assholes who share those attributes.
It's completely asinine. It is juvenile and transparently self-congratulatory, and I am sick of it.
Now, I'm talking about genuine hate here. Joking around about "lol hipsters" is fine.
It's when it gets into the "i f***ing hate hipsters" territory that I think the whole meme should be just taken out back and shot.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
I don’t know what world you live in where young people aren’t creating anything
Honestly, I usually just try to avoid hating people unless they're acting like dicks.
At the end of the day, yes. I don't care if you're wearing a miniskirt and Uggs or if you're wearing a graphic t and skinny jeans. If you're not bothering me or anyone else, then good day to you, sir.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
I don’t know what world you live in where young people aren’t creating anything
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
I don’t know what world you live in where young people aren’t creating anything
Not all young people are hipsters.
so what?
have you ever heard of a thing called tumblr?
It's a blogging platform. We had something similar when I was young. We called them notebooks. They also tended to be filled with drivel.
And all of them actually produced culture. Hipsters seem to do little more then to sort through the refuse pile of cultures gone by.
Problem One: If hipsters hadn't produced a culture, by what rubric would you then accredit hipsterism to someone?
Problem Two: How have other subcultures created other cultures by any means other than re-appropriating the detritus of mainstream culture?
Problem One: Adapting a mixture of various other cultures allow for the creation of a culture. That does not mean that the culture produces anything of value.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
p1: but those very values are only measured, in turn, by the current cultural measurements. If they aren't producing anything of value, perhaps you have to actually analyze what is "valued" and in turn what the cultural implications of that are.
p2: This seems pretty ridiculous. How is "adding anger of the period" altering rock and roll, and how is that adding value. This is a fluff answer, and I do not accept it as valid. What about the thousands of artists who are producing art of far greater cultural value than the punks. Give me a punk artist, and I guarantee you that I can submit a quote hipster unquote (whatever that may mean) whose work is, GASP, shockingly more culturally creative than a punk artist, or at least as much so.
This is such a silly argument, D&D, and I am surprised that you are carrying on like this. Culture and Subculures are rarely anything other than net-neutral -- gains here and losses there which merely alter the course of life, both for better and for worse.
Posts
I give up
right now I’m at a place where cutting my toenails is much more realistic and important
Give me proof that hipsters wear trendy clothes because they want to hide their lack of a personality.
Prove it.
Well yeah if suddenly people were identifying you as a hipster for dressing the way you normally do I imagine you'd probably be pretty pissed
So the people saying that it's not anything, just a bullshit term are really winning me over right now.
Wait I thought that made you a man child?
I'm so confused now...
Irony is the artistic intentional medium of the 20th century, so to attach it on to hipsters is pretty myopic.
Also, yes, we have all read DFW's excellent essay on irony. But the answer isn't simply to regress back to an aesthetic realism, and I think a number of artists are doing a laudable job of forging a new path between irony and realism.
No
Be careful. You could cut it too greedily, too deep; then wind up with an ingrown toenail that burns like a balrog.
I want a Bieber Fever shirt, but, like, a home made one complete with a scary black and while silk-screening of his face and elementary school bulletin board lettering.
Edit: Like this but even cruder: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/26/article-0-094DC792000005DC-582_468x318.jpg
Dallas Fort-Worth?
I'm done talking to you. You are being a tool.
No I would be a man child if I made absolutely no attempt to dress classy ever
Attempting to and failing just means I have no sense of class
Care to copy it?
Problem One: Adapting a mixture of various other cultures allow for the creation of a culture. That does not mean that the culture produces anything of value.
Problem Two: By altering it. Punk took Rock and Roll and added the anger of their period. This give something unique to them. Hipsters value the exact opposite. They aren't a creative subculture.
oh noooooooo
Okay, gotcha.
I find that "false irony" that you speak of is a lot of times a construct of critics. If anything, the music and ideals are nostalgic more than ironic. And if that's bothersome to you, that is understandable.
your 16 year old girlfriend dump you?
This could lead to an interesting discussion. Or I could go to sleep.
Decisions.
Yes, Dallas Fort-Worth all got together and wrote a communal essay at St. Mark's. Really a commendable civic effort.
I don’t know what world you live in where young people aren’t creating anything
But for those who are interested here's the longer rant:
Just something I've been meaning to get off my chest.
Over the past couple of years the term "hipster" has been thrown about more and more. More often than not, especially recently, it is used disparagingly. The problem, though, is that people now DEFINE a hipster as someone who is judgmental, arrogant, and interested in only appearances.
So they're hating on people... who are defined as people that you would automatically hate anyway. It's like saying "man I can't stand people I can't stand." Which doesn't say anything.
But now we come to the part that is really quite aggravating. You see, dressing in the way "hipsters" dress and liking the things "hipsters" like is so common among young people, because every human being on earth is a social creature and we dress and act like the people we associate ourselves with. That's part of being human.
So you have a whole group of people getting all high and mighty about a caricature they set up beforehand to be annoying, by definition. Then that ire is directed at people who don't deserve it. For instance, walking down the street you might see someone wearing a scarf. What 20 years ago might just be seen as a scarf now becomes a sign that the wearer is that caricature, that archetype. "Oh those goddamned hipsters are taking over <local area of local city>."
Are there people who are shallow, only interested in looking smart, who wear cardigan sweaters and black square glasses and who sip latte's and pretend to be into poetry to score dates? Yes. But there are also shallow poseurs in other groups. There are people who only pretend to be into classical music to score dates who don't dress and act like hipsters, who rather dress in suits and drive mercedes.
The point is, there are shallow assholes in every walk of life. The problem with the term "hipster" when used as a pejorative is that it falsely equates negative personality aspects with other, unrelated habits. Your particular musical preferences, dressing habits, and favorite coffee shops have absolutely nothing to do with whether you are a shallow, arrogant poseur. So a term that combines the two ends up lumping perfectly normal people who just happen to have a certain style of fashion and musical taste in with assholes who share those attributes.
It's completely asinine. It is juvenile and transparently self-congratulatory, and I am sick of it.
Now, I'm talking about genuine hate here. Joking around about "lol hipsters" is fine.
It's when it gets into the "i f***ing hate hipsters" territory that I think the whole meme should be just taken out back and shot.
Not all young people are hipsters.
...Huh?
CVS guy?
At the end of the day, yes. I don't care if you're wearing a miniskirt and Uggs or if you're wearing a graphic t and skinny jeans. If you're not bothering me or anyone else, then good day to you, sir.
so what?
have you ever heard of a thing called tumblr?
Maybe take a smoke break or something?
It's a blogging platform. We had something similar when I was young. We called them notebooks. They also tended to be filled with drivel.
fucking duh
you want a medal for that shit?
p1: but those very values are only measured, in turn, by the current cultural measurements. If they aren't producing anything of value, perhaps you have to actually analyze what is "valued" and in turn what the cultural implications of that are.
p2: This seems pretty ridiculous. How is "adding anger of the period" altering rock and roll, and how is that adding value. This is a fluff answer, and I do not accept it as valid. What about the thousands of artists who are producing art of far greater cultural value than the punks. Give me a punk artist, and I guarantee you that I can submit a quote hipster unquote (whatever that may mean) whose work is, GASP, shockingly more culturally creative than a punk artist, or at least as much so.
This is such a silly argument, D&D, and I am surprised that you are carrying on like this. Culture and Subculures are rarely anything other than net-neutral -- gains here and losses there which merely alter the course of life, both for better and for worse.
i am bad at starcrafts eddy