By the way, some people need to be positively encouraged to play. Lack of play time has been identified as a risk factor for depression and stress-related psychological disorders.
Play time doesn't necessarily mean "play with GI Joes," it can mean playing more "adult" games, like pool or football or bowling. Or it can mean "play with GI Joes," especially if you're playing GI Joes with a child or young nephew. Some therapists will try to break the ice into healthy "adult" playtime by starting with child activities like toys or coloring books. They might call it "regression therapy" or some other such nonsense but the real purpose is to get the person in question to just stop taking themselves so seriously for a few minutes, to realize that they can let down their guard and the world isn't going to end.
Is this an issue for gamer culture? Eh, probably not. Is it an issue for nerd culture at large? Absolutely, yes. Highly-educated people in knowledge industries are just as susceptible to this sort of problem as any other demographic.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
Yes. And other people find that distressing, and are not obligated to sanction your world-view or approve of it.
Well I find their world view distressing.
Right. And you don't feel obligated to approve of it, right? You are totally free to look down on it and refuse to bestow social reward on those people and their behaviors.
The only problem (for you) is that you're in the minority on this one, so people don't much care if you reward them or not (since, as someone who lacks social status in the first place, you have a very limited amount of social capital that you can bestow or remove from others. Status is sort of a cumulative thing that way.).
But, again there's no moral obligation one way or another here.
To me I think the defining characteristic of a man child is the urge to escape reality. Sports nuts are equally bad - they get somewhat of a free pass because they trend to do thuings in social groups, they make money and are sometimes physically fit. But they are no less bad as our flavor of man children and women find them boorish as well. The sad and frustrating thin for me is that people can completely abdicate any sense of civic engagement or responsibility and stop appreciating the arts.
What baffles me are the nerds who think the pathos of a final fantasy game offers the most emotional fulfillment available to western civilization. There's no sense of history or of the many deeper artistic currents in our culture. I think many women unfairly find VGs off-putting, but even nerd girls will reject guys who are not just emotionally but experientially stunted. Now to pax!
Yes, there is indeed a cultural backlash against weeaboos, and it's not entirely unjustified.
The difference between your pokemon cards and a Picasso is not 50 years. It's 50 years and artistic merit.
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
Yes. And other people find that distressing, and are not obligated to sanction your world-view or approve of it.
Well I find their world view distressing.
Right. And you don't feel obligated to approve of it, right? You are totally free to look down on it and refuse to bestow social reward on those people and their behaviors.
The only problem (for you) is that you're in the minority on this one, so people don't much care if you reward them or not (since, as someone who lacks social status in the first place, you have a very limited amount of social capital that you can bestow or remove from others. Status is sort of a cumulative thing that way.).
But, again there's no moral obligation one way or another here.
No, actually I do think I am morally obligated to not judge someone simply because they decided to go the two and a half kids and a white picket fence route. It's not my place to judge.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
0
Options
Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
If it's neither harmful nor laudible, then logically it follows that it's much more a neutral act than anything. And I think it'd be much more productive to rail on actual immaturity based on social actions (like adult temper tantrums, bullying in the workplace, etc.) as opposed to assumed immaturity based on hobbies and interests.
oh yeah i think those things are awful
but they're not really what i'm bitching about right now
what i'm bitching about is the demand from man-children that their lifestyle be accepted as "normal" or at least "legitimate"
i don't see myself as being under any such obligation
Okay, and? What are you even discussing here then, or are you just here to rail on "man-children (as according to your definition)"? I honestly can't tell. :?
EDIT: Okay, this post seems super barren so I'll engage a little more. What demand? What lifestyle? What other non-normal lifestyles would you feel you are not under any obligation to not judge?
By the way, some people need to be positively encouraged to play. Lack of play time has been identified as a risk factor for depression and stress-related psychological disorders.
Play time doesn't necessarily mean "play with GI Joes," it can mean playing more "adult" games, like pool or football or bowling.
Oh, I totally agree. Being too serious is not optimal, in my opinion. And I do enjoy a good round of Starcraft 2. But I also understand that people will look down on that particular form of play, and will respect me a lot more if I choose to spend that time at a bar with them knocking back a few Arrogant Bastards and gossiping.
And, frankly, they're both fun, so I don't see why some people are so attached to one that they would forgo the social benefit of the other. Like, yes, I enjoy SC2, but I find it odd when people enjoy videogames or other nerd-behavior to the exclusion of socially-valued forms of play.
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
I think that when an adult enjoys entertainment made for children, it makes a big difference what exactly he's getting out of it. Adults can enjoy children's books like the Hobbit because, even though it's written for children, it's a damn good book, with a lot of subleties that "adult" books like a tom clancy novel miss. An adult can get more out of it than a child. Even children's cartoons often have jokes in them that a child wouldn't really see. And making an exhaustive collection of every GI Joe ever and keeping them in mint condition is really different from how kids play with them.
On the other hand, if an adult is still enjoying the stuff in the same way kids do- like "haha, this toy looks funny!" and not getting anything else out of it at all, then I do think it's a problem. It shows a lack of development- like his mind just isn't at the level it should be, even if he's perfectly intelligent in other ways.
in other words, when I play with GI Goes, I play with them ironically
By the way, some people need to be positively encouraged to play. Lack of play time has been identified as a risk factor for depression and stress-related psychological disorders.
This brings up an interesting dilemma. I know that, at least in America, there was a serious concern that a severe lack of leisure time compared to other industrialized nations was having long term health consequences. That the well-known and sometimes exaggerated (among Americans anyway) image of the Japanese middle-class working themselves to death on occasion was, slowly, becoming the case among some middle-class Americans.
Of course, then the economy went to hell, so people either had more free time because they were fired or people stopped giving a shit.
At the same time, we apparently have increasingly strict notions of what kind of "leisure" is socially acceptable here too. It doesn't seem like these two trains of thought happened to coincide though, thankfully. If not, I bet a bunch of people selling barbecues, cheap beer, SUVs and cheap inflatable pool stuff would have been very pleased. It's entirely reasonable for people to look down at their nose at certain forms of entertainment as being immature, but the potential, albeit unlikely offshoot--"Hey, you need to relax more! And by relax, I mean go to barbecues and play flag football and other wholesome stuff!" sounds like another ridiculous scheme to sell crap.
Synthesis on
0
Options
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
Yes. And other people find that distressing, and are not obligated to sanction your world-view or approve of it.
Isn't the whole truth that in the end no one really cares all that much if you achieve anything in your life because they are way more focused on their own?
Also,does "achieving" something or "leaving a legacy" actually amount to anything if it's all pointless to yourself once you are dead?
You only ever set your own goals and if you reach them or fulfill your own needs then good for you. But why would anyone else care or why would you care about someone else caring? (I write "care" too much. Not that you'd care :P )
I never care about what others think and just do my own stuff and fulfill my needs. I don't see how my life is worth less than the life of the guy who cures cancer.
Even if he cures cancer and is hailed as a king during his life,when he's dead,he is dead. It doesn't make any difference to him whether his name is in a book or whether millions of people live because of him. He wanted to cure cancer and he did. I wanted to spend my time different,I did.
I never really "got" the whole "achievement unlocked" thing.
I don't think simply collecting action figures makes you a man-child. Especially if you are a functioning professional adult, it's perfectly ok to have a passion for things you like. In fact it's weird if you don't.
On the other hand if you like to take those action figures out and set up play sets and make them go pew pew at each other, Yeah I can agree that's weird. You're an adult, there has to be better ways for you to entertain yourself. Like there's a part of our brains that is able to derive entertainment from 'childish' things, but it is supposed to be turned off for the most part by the time we become adults.
No, actually I do think I am morally obligated to not judge someone simply because they decided to go the two and a half kids and a white picket fence route. It's not my place to judge.
But you can't not judge them. You judge them by deciding not to endorse or engage in their activities. You judge them by not hanging out with them, gossiping with them, or otherwise behaving with them in ways that imply social acceptance.
It is reasonably impossible to be socially neutral. People associate with certain categories of other people. I don't like to hang out with middle-American Republicans who would eschew foie gras and full-employment, and I'm sure they don't want to hang out with me. I don't even have to explicitly, openly or privately judge them for their ways -- but merely by not bestowing them with equal social consideration as every other group of people, I am enforcing judgment.
Fartacus on
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
Yes. And other people find that distressing, and are not obligated to sanction your world-view or approve of it.
Well I find their world view distressing.
Right. And you don't feel obligated to approve of it, right? You are totally free to look down on it and refuse to bestow social reward on those people and their behaviors.
The only problem (for you) is that you're in the minority on this one, so people don't much care if you reward them or not (since, as someone who lacks social status in the first place, you have a very limited amount of social capital that you can bestow or remove from others. Status is sort of a cumulative thing that way.).
But, again there's no moral obligation one way or another here.
No, actually I do think I am morally obligated to not judge someone simply because they decided to go the two and a half kids and a white picket fence route. It's not my place to judge.
Can you deal living in a world where people feel entitled to judge?
mrt144 on
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Okay, and? What are you even discussing here then, or are you just here to rail on "man-children (as according to your definition)"? I honestly can't tell. :?
EDIT: Okay, this post seems super barren so I'll engage a little more. What demand? What lifestyle? What other non-normal lifestyles would you feel you are not under any obligation to not judge?
what?
this is a thread about man-children, so i posted by view on man-children
i don't really feel as though i am obligated to reserve judgement on much of anything
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
I think that when an adult enjoys entertainment made for children, it makes a big difference what exactly he's getting out of it. Adults can enjoy children's books like the Hobbit because, even though it's written for children, it's a damn good book, with a lot of subleties that "adult" books like a tom clancy novel miss. An adult can get more out of it than a child. Even children's cartoons often have jokes in them that a child wouldn't really see. And making an exhaustive collection of every GI Joe ever and keeping them in mint condition is really different from how kids play with them.
On the other hand, if an adult is still enjoying the stuff in the same way kids do- like "haha, this toy looks funny!" and not getting anything else out of it at all, then I do think it's a problem. It shows a lack of development- like his mind just isn't at the level it should be, even if he's perfectly intelligent in other ways.
This is a good post, adults tend not to do things like "Play with GI Joes" because under normal development for any adult (Be they a nerd or jock) we crave more in what we do.
Playing commandos with my GI joes when I was a kid was satisfying but I don't do it now because my imagination needs more flexibility now. I don't want to be shackled down by limbs or pretend buildings. I'll write stories now or build models (possibly incorporating GI Joes) because it gives me a challenge and gives me fullfillment now.
Lego is kind of a catch all toy because it's always been about building things. Kids just tend to build less complex things than Adults.
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
Eh. Just a difference of degree really, not so much a difference of kind.
I mean, laws are social constructs, many of which are fairly arbitrary too. You're never going to be free from social critique, or ostracization, which is how I read a lot of these comments: "I want to be able to act however I want and no one should judge me as long as I'm not hurting anyone!" Well, fair enough, I guess, but in that case being part of the human race is kind of tough titty for you. That's sort of what we do here.
this right here
With all due respect, to me you seem to be a little too concerned with what others think, and what the "norm" is. I too am in my mid thirties, and live with my girlfriend (we've been together 3 years). We aren't married, and don't have kids.
However I think you and I may have had completely opposite experiences up until now, based on your posts. Before I met my current girlfriend, I had been engaged to someone I had been with for 7 years. My fiancée did not appreciate any of my hobbies (like video games), or any of my tastes in TV shows, books, movies ect. I was constantly made to feel that I was being childish for wanting to spend time playing video games, or putting something like a Mario mini-figurine on my desk.
I was pretty unhappy, but I thought that she was right. That I was supposed to grow up and shed my interests and hobbies for more mature ones. Which basically meant passing up a game of Smash Brothers with my own brothers and my sisters boyfriends to go out to dinner and discuss things like reality TV. I pretty much stopped caring about a lot of things (including taking care of myself - I gained a lot of weight) but I had a very good job working for an oil company, a house and a plan for the future.
We ended up breaking up (it was an overall unhealthy relationship) and I ended up leaving everything (my job, house, even city). I moved back in with my family and spent 3 years rebuilding my shitastic life. During that time, I was monastically single, got back into shape, got a government job and spent my savings putting myself back through school (while working full time).
I refused to make myself miserable again, and told myself that I wouldn't be stuck in a seven year hell with someone that couldn't tolerate my "childish interests". Flash forward, and I met my current girlfriend, who shares many (not all) of my hobbies and interests, and is tolerant of the ones she doesn't (just like I tolerate her strange love of dance reality TV). She is the one who introduced me to the joys of Pikmin and airbender cartoons, for example.
And we are happy, gainfully employed, have active social lives and a plan for the future (albeit, a very different one). We also have a big game collection, and quite a few game figurines on our bookshelf.
I apologise for the length of this, and while I realise its maybe slightly off topic, I wanted to show that not everyone has to do "what everyone expects of them", or "what everyone else is doing" to be productive (and accepted) members of society. If you act like a reasonable member of society you can still have all kinds of ridiculous hobbies and past times, as long as you aren't hurting anyone else.
Valleo on
0
Options
Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
this is a thread about man-children, so i posted by view on man-children
Oh! I'm sorry! I think I take the debate part of Debate and Discourse way too seriously.
i don't really feel as though i am obligated to reserve judgement on much of anything
judging and forming opinions is what humans do
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge other human beings (within reason of course). It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
Gennenalyse Rueben on
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
With all due respect, to me you seem to be a little too concerned with what others think, and what the "norm" is. I too am in my mid thirties, and live with my girlfriend (we've been together 3 years). We aren't married, and don't have kids.
However I think you and I may have had completely opposite experiences up until now, based on your posts. Before I met my current girlfriend, I had been engaged to someone I had been with for 7 years. My fiancée did not appreciate any of my hobbies (like video games), or any of my tastes in TV shows, books, movies ect. I was constantly made to feel that I was being childish for wanting to spend time playing video games, or putting something like a Mario mini-figurine on my desk.
I was pretty unhappy, but I thought that she was right. That I was supposed to grow up and shed my interests and hobbies for more mature ones. Which basically meant passing up a game of Smash Brothers with my own brothers and my sisters boyfriends to go out to dinner and discuss things like reality TV. I pretty much stopped caring about a lot of things (including taking care of myself - I gained a lot of weight) but I had a very good job working for an oil company, a house and a plan for the future.
We ended up breaking up (it was an overall unhealthy relationship) and I ended up leaving everything (my job, house, even city). I moved back in with my family and spent 3 years rebuilding my shitastic life. During that time, I was monastically single, got back into shape, got a government job and spent my savings putting myself back through school (while working full time).
I refused to make myself miserable again, and told myself that I wouldn't be stuck in a seven year hell with someone that couldn't tolerate my "childish interests". Flash forward, and I met my current girlfriend, who shares many (not all) of my hobbies and interests, and is tolerant of the ones she doesn't (just like I tolerate her strange love of dance reality TV). She is the one who introduced me to the joys of Pikmin and airbender cartoons, for example.
And we are happy, gainfully employed, have active social lives and a plan for the future (albeit, a very different one). We also have a big game collection, and quite a few game figurines on our bookshelf.
I apologise for the length of this, and while I realise its maybe slightly off topic, I wanted to show that not everyone has to do "what everyone expects of them", or "what everyone else is doing" to be productive (and accepted) members of society. If you act like a reasonable member of society you can still have all kinds of ridiculous hobbies and past times, as long as you aren't hurting anyone else.
yeah i didn't mean to say that i despise everyone who has any kind of childish indulgence. i mean, i have an xbox and sc2 installed on my computer. i moderate webforum that's kind of centered around a video game webcomic. obviously i have my own childish indulgences.
its mostly that i'm asserting that there really is a cultural distinction between "adult activities" and "child activities". yes, in places the line is blurred, and yes it's fine for functional adults to have flights of fancy. but culturally, it's important to recognize that there is a difference.
people are primarily responsible to carving out their own paths to happiness. it sounds like you've found a relationship and lifestyle that you are happy with, and that's great. but, on the other hand, people don't have to regard your (or my!) video-game-playing habit as something that is worthy of an adult. they're not wrong! just like i'm not wrong that american ido or twilightl is puerile!
Irond Will on
0
Options
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Given that 99% of people waste the entirety of their free time on mindless consumption of ridiculously stupid entertainment, the act of imagination it takes to enjoy playing with GI Joes rather than slobbing out in front of the TV SHOULD be lauded.
this is a thread about man-children, so i posted by view on man-children
Oh! I'm sorry! I think I take the debate part of Debate and Discourse way too seriously.
i don't really feel as though i am obligated to reserve judgement on much of anything
judging and forming opinions is what humans do
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge. It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
That seems like a silly way to live. There are way too many situations where we need to make snap judgments to stay safe (for example, walking alone at night, person walking toward you. Are they well-dressed? Are they walking strangely? Aggressive posture? Reaching for something? Male? Etc.)
Obviously, we should try to make more measured, educated judgments when possible. For example, not dismissing someone outright when they say that they love DBZ. But trying to suppress judgment entirely is an unrealistic way to try to live, and not really desirable.
I imagine man-children (or women-children) as those people who refuse to clean up after themselves, skip out on bills, take things that do not belong to them, and refuse to sacrifice their leisure time for work, school, or household chores. I've know and know of a few in my lifetime, they either didn't learn or refuse to accept like 90% of the life lessons that make someone a functioning adult.
Smurph on
0
Options
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
Given that 99% of people waste the entirety of their free time on mindless consumption of ridiculously stupid entertainment, the act of imagination it takes to enjoy playing with GI Joes rather than slobbing out in front of the TV SHOULD be lauded.
The trap of maturity is comical.
Every time we play LoL together we lose a little bit of our maturity. If we play too much,we become toddlers again until we ultimately play ourselves out of existence.
Klyka on
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Given that 99% of people waste the entirety of their free time on mindless consumption of ridiculously stupid entertainment, the act of imagination it takes to enjoy playing with GI Joes rather than slobbing out in front of the TV SHOULD be lauded.
The trap of maturity is comical.
so uh how old do you have to be before you get kicked out of wonderland?
Irond Will on
0
Options
Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge. It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
That seems like a silly way to live. There are way too many situations where we need to make snap judgments to stay safe (for example, walking alone at night, person walking toward you. Are they well-dressed? Are they walking strangely? Aggressive posture? Reaching for something? Male? Etc.)
Obviously, we should try to make more measured, educated judgments when possible. For example, not dismissing someone outright when they say that they love DBZ. But trying to suppress judgment entirely is an unrealistic way to try to live, and not really desirable.
Yep, I'd totally be going "Hey there, dark alley guy! Ooooo, is that a present!? Lemme see!"
No, seriously, I'm speaking within reason. Essentially, what you said in the bolded. That's what I do, or tried to do anyway. I'd not be alive today if I tried to completely suppress my ability to judge my environment. I judge it all the time. I just do my best not to judge people over a somewhat abnormal hobby or something.
Gennenalyse Rueben on
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I think the best determination currently is drawing a line between those who do nothing but obsess over their hobby and are unable to take care of themselves to those who do take care of their responsibilities, even if they live at home with their parents, but have hobbies that the current society thinks are foolish. If we can make this distiction from what true determines a "Man-Child" we can, I think safely assume that those of us here do not fall into this category even if our SO dislike some of the things we do.
Anyone who lives at their parent's home past the age of 22, with the exception of those taking care of an ill parent, will always get my scorn and derision for not leaving the safety and comfort of the nest.
No, actually I do think I am morally obligated to not judge someone simply because they decided to go the two and a half kids and a white picket fence route. It's not my place to judge.
But you can't not judge them. You judge them by deciding not to endorse or engage in their activities. You judge them by not hanging out with them, gossiping with them, or otherwise behaving with them in ways that imply social acceptance.
It is reasonably impossible to be socially neutral. People associate with certain categories of other people. I don't like to hang out with middle-American Republicans who would eschew foie gras and full-employment, and I'm sure they don't want to hang out with me. I don't even have to explicitly, openly or privately judge them for their ways -- but merely by not bestowing them with equal social consideration as every other group of people, I am enforcing judgment.
If my more mainstream friends want to get together and play stupid party games like Apples to Apples, I'm probably going to go along with it even though my usual interest is more hardcore like BSG.
And I'm pretty sure some of my friends are Republicans. Or at least their families are, and they're like uninformed, unmotivated "independents". Losers. :P
But I still hang out with them.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge. It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
That seems like a silly way to live. There are way too many situations where we need to make snap judgments to stay safe (for example, walking alone at night, person walking toward you. Are they well-dressed? Are they walking strangely? Aggressive posture? Reaching for something? Male? Etc.)
Obviously, we should try to make more measured, educated judgments when possible. For example, not dismissing someone outright when they say that they love DBZ. But trying to suppress judgment entirely is an unrealistic way to try to live, and not really desirable.
Yep, I'd totally be going "Hey there, dark alley guy! Ooooo, is that a present!? Lemme see!"
No, seriously, I'm speaking within reason. Essentially, what you said in the bolded. That's what I do, or tried to do anyway. I'd not be alive today if I tried to completely suppress my ability to judge my environment. I judge it all the time. I just do my best not to judge people over a somewhat abnormal hobby or something.
That makes sense. I just want to point out, in light of your taking the debate part of this forum seriously, that your two posts do not say the same thing.
Your goal is laudable. But there are far too many judgments for us to make about people during our lives to make it possible for all such judgments to be fully informed. We have to take shortcuts at times. A significant interest in, say, DBZ for a 35 year old does and probably should raise some red flags. And if there's no big reason to make a concerted effort to dig deeper, than most people will probably make their judgment then, if only because they have other, more important things to think about (supposedly).
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge. It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
That seems like a silly way to live. There are way too many situations where we need to make snap judgments to stay safe (for example, walking alone at night, person walking toward you. Are they well-dressed? Are they walking strangely? Aggressive posture? Reaching for something? Male? Etc.)
Obviously, we should try to make more measured, educated judgments when possible. For example, not dismissing someone outright when they say that they love DBZ. But trying to suppress judgment entirely is an unrealistic way to try to live, and not really desirable.
Yep, I'd totally be going "Hey there, dark alley guy! Ooooo, is that a present!? Lemme see!"
No, seriously, I'm speaking within reason. Essentially, what you said in the bolded. That's what I do, or tried to do anyway. I'd not be alive today if I tried to completely suppress my ability to judge my environment. I judge it all the time. I just do my best not to judge people over a somewhat abnormal hobby or something.
I think you're taking the poster out of context and you're actually both right along the same lines. He didn't insinuate that you should throw away your safety judgements, just...frivilous things like their clothing or abnormal hobbies.
Sipex on
0
Options
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
I do have to be honest in that I think I have a very "man child" like characteristic in my problem of not really being able to hold relationships with women who do not share the same interests as me.
I am very,very bad at compromises and I'd rather be single than compromise with a woman to be with her.
Klyka on
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I do have to be honest in that I think I have a very "man child" like characteristic in my problem of not really being able to hold relationships with women who do not share the same interests as me.
I am very,very bad at compromises and I'd rather be single than compromise with a woman to be with her.
That's not man-childish at all until you're reflexively saying you were incompatible after the fact to unwittingly make yourself feel better.
Anyone who lives at their parent's home past the age of 22, with the exception of those taking care of an ill parent, will always get my scorn and derision for not leaving the safety and comfort of the nest.
Nah. Try being a just graduated student living in somewhere like London or Cambridge minimum tens of grand in debt. I've seen plenty of people make some really dumb choices because they've insisted on being a big boy/girl now.
Edit: And lets face it you're not leaving the 'protection of the nest', you're some spoilt middleclass kid who knows if he done fucks up he can go running back to mummy and daddy.
Leitner on
0
Options
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
I do have to be honest in that I think I have a very "man child" like characteristic in my problem of not really being able to hold relationships with women who do not share the same interests as me.
I am very,very bad at compromises and I'd rather be single than compromise with a woman to be with her.
That's not man-childish at all until you're reflexively saying you were incompatible after the fact to unwittingly make yourself feel better.
It's more that I spend time with them,realize that I like them but then remember if I would be together with them I could not do the things I like and which are fun for me anymore and that that those things rank higher for me than a woman.
If my more mainstream friends want to get together and play stupid party games like Apples to Apples, I'm probably going to go along with it even though my usual interest is more hardcore like BSG.
And I'm pretty sure some of my friends are Republicans. Or at least their families are, and they're like uninformed, unmotivated "independents". Losers. :P
But I still hang out with them.
I think you misunderstand my point.
What I'm saying is that who you socialize with is not an uncorrelated variable. You don't just hang out with people at random -- you choose whom you socialize with based on your personal preferences for certain behaviors, worldviews, and so on. Your friends probably have some things in common, and fall into one or at most a few discrete social categories. This is judging behaviorally. Even if you pat yourself on the back for being accepting and everything, you're still making judgments of value and acting on them. You're evaluating someone's behavior and saying "I want to hang out with them" or "I don't want to hang out with them." I'm sure there are people you respect more than others; some you show deference to, and others you do not; etc.
That's normal, and healthy, and a simple reality of life.
Fartacus on
0
Options
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
so uh how old do you have to be before you get kicked out of wonderland?
You'll have to ask the rabbit, he's the one who handles matters of timing.
surrealitycheck on
0
Options
Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
That makes sense. I just want to point out, in light of your taking the debate part of this forum seriously, that your two posts do not say the same thing.
Yeah, upon re-reading it I can see where that came from. I'll edit it to be more accurate. And, in my defense, I'm an awful debater.
Your goal is laudable. But there are far too many judgments for us to make about people during our lives to make it possible for all such judgments to be fully informed. We have to take shortcuts at times. A significant interest in, say, DBZ for a 35 year old does and probably should raise some red flags. And if there's no big reason to make a concerted effort to dig deeper, than most people will probably make their judgment then, if only because they have other, more important things to think about (supposedly).
I did say it fails, too. :P It's a personal goal I know I can never achieve, but I can try to dammit. I feel it has bettered me as a person. And, well, I would like for other people to do the same for me, given certain personal details that are unrelated to "Man-Children". Kind of a Golden Rule-ish deal. But you're 100% correct, sometimes you need to make a snap judgement of somebody to function because there are just so many people out there. I just really can't fathom actively judging people because, welp, humans are like that.
Gennenalyse Rueben on
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I think the best determination currently is drawing a line between those who do nothing but obsess over their hobby and are unable to take care of themselves to those who do take care of their responsibilities, even if they live at home with their parents, but have hobbies that the current society thinks are foolish. If we can make this distiction from what true determines a "Man-Child" we can, I think safely assume that those of us here do not fall into this category even if our SO dislike some of the things we do.
Anyone who lives at their parent's home past the age of 22, with the exception of those taking care of an ill parent, will always get my scorn and derision for not leaving the safety and comfort of the nest.
Are we talking about natives here or immigrants? If they are immigrants to the west, the I would assume that their culture would have one living with their parents as a unit. I have a Indian friend who's elder brother, wife and children live with him and his sister alongside the parents because thats how they were back home.
If its native and not immigrants, I would say that the recent economic climate would prove otherwise as another friend lost his job in my company the same time I did and had to return back to his hometown because he couldn't afford living there. He lives with his parents and is trying to get back up, though with the IT industry down here, its not looking all that good in the first place.
Natives, definitely. Economic climate or not though, I find it repugnant to put your parents, who are likely also facing tough financial questions themselves, in a position where they are again providing for you. One can say that a parent who wouldn't help their kid out is a bad parent but I come from the background of being forcibly pushed out of the nest at 19 and living in squalor, both employed and unemployed off and on for the next 3 years.
That makes sense. I just want to point out, in light of your taking the debate part of this forum seriously, that your two posts do not say the same thing.
Yeah, upon re-reading it I can see where that came from. I'll edit it to be more accurate. And, in my defense, I'm an awful debater.
Your goal is laudable. But there are far too many judgments for us to make about people during our lives to make it possible for all such judgments to be fully informed. We have to take shortcuts at times. A significant interest in, say, DBZ for a 35 year old does and probably should raise some red flags. And if there's no big reason to make a concerted effort to dig deeper, than most people will probably make their judgment then, if only because they have other, more important things to think about (supposedly).
I did say it fails, too. :P It's a personal goal I know I can never achieve, but I can try to dammit. I feel it has bettered me as a person. And, well, I would like for other people to do the same for me, given certain personal details that are unrelated to "Man-Children". Kind of a Golden Rule-ish deal. But you're 100% correct, sometimes you need to make a snap judgement of somebody to function because there are just so many people out there. I just really can't fathom actively judging people because, welp, humans are like that.
No worries. Your point is well-taken and I wish more people would spend time WHY they are making certain judgments; for example, did I walk to the other side of the street because the guy was aggressive or just because he's black? Or in a less charged example, did I dismiss that person because she truly is a ditz or just because she's blond and pretty?
If we start to focus on better markers, then even our snap judgments will improve. To draw from this thread, I think being actively into cosplay is a better marker than an interest in video games, considering how large the pool of gamers is and how relatively small the population of cosplayers is.
If my more mainstream friends want to get together and play stupid party games like Apples to Apples, I'm probably going to go along with it even though my usual interest is more hardcore like BSG.
And I'm pretty sure some of my friends are Republicans. Or at least their families are, and they're like uninformed, unmotivated "independents". Losers. :P
But I still hang out with them.
I think you misunderstand my point.
What I'm saying is that who you socialize with is not an uncorrelated variable. You don't just hang out with people at random -- you choose whom you socialize with based on your personal preferences for certain behaviors, worldviews, and so on. Your friends probably have some things in common, and fall into one or at most a few discrete social categories. This is judging behaviorally. Even if you pat yourself on the back for being accepting and everything, you're still making judgments of value and acting on them. You're evaluating someone's behavior and saying "I want to hang out with them" or "I don't want to hang out with them." I'm sure there are people you respect more than others; some you show deference to, and others you do not; etc.
That's normal, and healthy, and a simple reality of life.
What I'm saying is that engaging in social behavior with people is a factor of knowing people, and having some interest in an activity in common with them.
Unlike mrt144 or Irond Will however I do not feel the need to talk about how all married people are sheeples.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Posts
Play time doesn't necessarily mean "play with GI Joes," it can mean playing more "adult" games, like pool or football or bowling. Or it can mean "play with GI Joes," especially if you're playing GI Joes with a child or young nephew. Some therapists will try to break the ice into healthy "adult" playtime by starting with child activities like toys or coloring books. They might call it "regression therapy" or some other such nonsense but the real purpose is to get the person in question to just stop taking themselves so seriously for a few minutes, to realize that they can let down their guard and the world isn't going to end.
Is this an issue for gamer culture? Eh, probably not. Is it an issue for nerd culture at large? Absolutely, yes. Highly-educated people in knowledge industries are just as susceptible to this sort of problem as any other demographic.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Right. And you don't feel obligated to approve of it, right? You are totally free to look down on it and refuse to bestow social reward on those people and their behaviors.
The only problem (for you) is that you're in the minority on this one, so people don't much care if you reward them or not (since, as someone who lacks social status in the first place, you have a very limited amount of social capital that you can bestow or remove from others. Status is sort of a cumulative thing that way.).
But, again there's no moral obligation one way or another here.
Yes, there is indeed a cultural backlash against weeaboos, and it's not entirely unjustified.
The difference between your pokemon cards and a Picasso is not 50 years. It's 50 years and artistic merit.
No, actually I do think I am morally obligated to not judge someone simply because they decided to go the two and a half kids and a white picket fence route. It's not my place to judge.
Okay, and? What are you even discussing here then, or are you just here to rail on "man-children (as according to your definition)"? I honestly can't tell. :?
EDIT: Okay, this post seems super barren so I'll engage a little more. What demand? What lifestyle? What other non-normal lifestyles would you feel you are not under any obligation to not judge?
Oh, I totally agree. Being too serious is not optimal, in my opinion. And I do enjoy a good round of Starcraft 2. But I also understand that people will look down on that particular form of play, and will respect me a lot more if I choose to spend that time at a bar with them knocking back a few Arrogant Bastards and gossiping.
And, frankly, they're both fun, so I don't see why some people are so attached to one that they would forgo the social benefit of the other. Like, yes, I enjoy SC2, but I find it odd when people enjoy videogames or other nerd-behavior to the exclusion of socially-valued forms of play.
I think that when an adult enjoys entertainment made for children, it makes a big difference what exactly he's getting out of it. Adults can enjoy children's books like the Hobbit because, even though it's written for children, it's a damn good book, with a lot of subleties that "adult" books like a tom clancy novel miss. An adult can get more out of it than a child. Even children's cartoons often have jokes in them that a child wouldn't really see. And making an exhaustive collection of every GI Joe ever and keeping them in mint condition is really different from how kids play with them.
On the other hand, if an adult is still enjoying the stuff in the same way kids do- like "haha, this toy looks funny!" and not getting anything else out of it at all, then I do think it's a problem. It shows a lack of development- like his mind just isn't at the level it should be, even if he's perfectly intelligent in other ways.
in other words, when I play with GI Goes, I play with them ironically
This brings up an interesting dilemma. I know that, at least in America, there was a serious concern that a severe lack of leisure time compared to other industrialized nations was having long term health consequences. That the well-known and sometimes exaggerated (among Americans anyway) image of the Japanese middle-class working themselves to death on occasion was, slowly, becoming the case among some middle-class Americans.
Of course, then the economy went to hell, so people either had more free time because they were fired or people stopped giving a shit.
At the same time, we apparently have increasingly strict notions of what kind of "leisure" is socially acceptable here too. It doesn't seem like these two trains of thought happened to coincide though, thankfully. If not, I bet a bunch of people selling barbecues, cheap beer, SUVs and cheap inflatable pool stuff would have been very pleased. It's entirely reasonable for people to look down at their nose at certain forms of entertainment as being immature, but the potential, albeit unlikely offshoot--"Hey, you need to relax more! And by relax, I mean go to barbecues and play flag football and other wholesome stuff!" sounds like another ridiculous scheme to sell crap.
Isn't the whole truth that in the end no one really cares all that much if you achieve anything in your life because they are way more focused on their own?
Also,does "achieving" something or "leaving a legacy" actually amount to anything if it's all pointless to yourself once you are dead?
You only ever set your own goals and if you reach them or fulfill your own needs then good for you. But why would anyone else care or why would you care about someone else caring? (I write "care" too much. Not that you'd care :P )
I never care about what others think and just do my own stuff and fulfill my needs. I don't see how my life is worth less than the life of the guy who cures cancer.
Even if he cures cancer and is hailed as a king during his life,when he's dead,he is dead. It doesn't make any difference to him whether his name is in a book or whether millions of people live because of him. He wanted to cure cancer and he did. I wanted to spend my time different,I did.
I never really "got" the whole "achievement unlocked" thing.
On the other hand if you like to take those action figures out and set up play sets and make them go pew pew at each other, Yeah I can agree that's weird. You're an adult, there has to be better ways for you to entertain yourself. Like there's a part of our brains that is able to derive entertainment from 'childish' things, but it is supposed to be turned off for the most part by the time we become adults.
But you can't not judge them. You judge them by deciding not to endorse or engage in their activities. You judge them by not hanging out with them, gossiping with them, or otherwise behaving with them in ways that imply social acceptance.
It is reasonably impossible to be socially neutral. People associate with certain categories of other people. I don't like to hang out with middle-American Republicans who would eschew foie gras and full-employment, and I'm sure they don't want to hang out with me. I don't even have to explicitly, openly or privately judge them for their ways -- but merely by not bestowing them with equal social consideration as every other group of people, I am enforcing judgment.
Can you deal living in a world where people feel entitled to judge?
what?
this is a thread about man-children, so i posted by view on man-children
i don't really feel as though i am obligated to reserve judgement on much of anything
judging and forming opinions is what humans do
This is a good post, adults tend not to do things like "Play with GI Joes" because under normal development for any adult (Be they a nerd or jock) we crave more in what we do.
Playing commandos with my GI joes when I was a kid was satisfying but I don't do it now because my imagination needs more flexibility now. I don't want to be shackled down by limbs or pretend buildings. I'll write stories now or build models (possibly incorporating GI Joes) because it gives me a challenge and gives me fullfillment now.
Lego is kind of a catch all toy because it's always been about building things. Kids just tend to build less complex things than Adults.
With all due respect, to me you seem to be a little too concerned with what others think, and what the "norm" is. I too am in my mid thirties, and live with my girlfriend (we've been together 3 years). We aren't married, and don't have kids.
However I think you and I may have had completely opposite experiences up until now, based on your posts. Before I met my current girlfriend, I had been engaged to someone I had been with for 7 years. My fiancée did not appreciate any of my hobbies (like video games), or any of my tastes in TV shows, books, movies ect. I was constantly made to feel that I was being childish for wanting to spend time playing video games, or putting something like a Mario mini-figurine on my desk.
I was pretty unhappy, but I thought that she was right. That I was supposed to grow up and shed my interests and hobbies for more mature ones. Which basically meant passing up a game of Smash Brothers with my own brothers and my sisters boyfriends to go out to dinner and discuss things like reality TV. I pretty much stopped caring about a lot of things (including taking care of myself - I gained a lot of weight) but I had a very good job working for an oil company, a house and a plan for the future.
We ended up breaking up (it was an overall unhealthy relationship) and I ended up leaving everything (my job, house, even city). I moved back in with my family and spent 3 years rebuilding my shitastic life. During that time, I was monastically single, got back into shape, got a government job and spent my savings putting myself back through school (while working full time).
I refused to make myself miserable again, and told myself that I wouldn't be stuck in a seven year hell with someone that couldn't tolerate my "childish interests". Flash forward, and I met my current girlfriend, who shares many (not all) of my hobbies and interests, and is tolerant of the ones she doesn't (just like I tolerate her strange love of dance reality TV). She is the one who introduced me to the joys of Pikmin and airbender cartoons, for example.
And we are happy, gainfully employed, have active social lives and a plan for the future (albeit, a very different one). We also have a big game collection, and quite a few game figurines on our bookshelf.
I apologise for the length of this, and while I realise its maybe slightly off topic, I wanted to show that not everyone has to do "what everyone expects of them", or "what everyone else is doing" to be productive (and accepted) members of society. If you act like a reasonable member of society you can still have all kinds of ridiculous hobbies and past times, as long as you aren't hurting anyone else.
Oh! I'm sorry! I think I take the debate part of Debate and Discourse way too seriously.
And I find that to be unfathomable. I make a concerted effort to not judge other human beings (within reason of course). It's a failing effort much as suppressing any other base human element is, but I sure as hell have learned and matured a lot more for doing it.
yeah i didn't mean to say that i despise everyone who has any kind of childish indulgence. i mean, i have an xbox and sc2 installed on my computer. i moderate webforum that's kind of centered around a video game webcomic. obviously i have my own childish indulgences.
its mostly that i'm asserting that there really is a cultural distinction between "adult activities" and "child activities". yes, in places the line is blurred, and yes it's fine for functional adults to have flights of fancy. but culturally, it's important to recognize that there is a difference.
people are primarily responsible to carving out their own paths to happiness. it sounds like you've found a relationship and lifestyle that you are happy with, and that's great. but, on the other hand, people don't have to regard your (or my!) video-game-playing habit as something that is worthy of an adult. they're not wrong! just like i'm not wrong that american ido or twilightl is puerile!
The trap of maturity is comical.
That seems like a silly way to live. There are way too many situations where we need to make snap judgments to stay safe (for example, walking alone at night, person walking toward you. Are they well-dressed? Are they walking strangely? Aggressive posture? Reaching for something? Male? Etc.)
Obviously, we should try to make more measured, educated judgments when possible. For example, not dismissing someone outright when they say that they love DBZ. But trying to suppress judgment entirely is an unrealistic way to try to live, and not really desirable.
Every time we play LoL together we lose a little bit of our maturity. If we play too much,we become toddlers again until we ultimately play ourselves out of existence.
so uh how old do you have to be before you get kicked out of wonderland?
Yep, I'd totally be going "Hey there, dark alley guy! Ooooo, is that a present!? Lemme see!"
No, seriously, I'm speaking within reason. Essentially, what you said in the bolded. That's what I do, or tried to do anyway. I'd not be alive today if I tried to completely suppress my ability to judge my environment. I judge it all the time. I just do my best not to judge people over a somewhat abnormal hobby or something.
Anyone who lives at their parent's home past the age of 22, with the exception of those taking care of an ill parent, will always get my scorn and derision for not leaving the safety and comfort of the nest.
If my more mainstream friends want to get together and play stupid party games like Apples to Apples, I'm probably going to go along with it even though my usual interest is more hardcore like BSG.
And I'm pretty sure some of my friends are Republicans. Or at least their families are, and they're like uninformed, unmotivated "independents". Losers. :P
But I still hang out with them.
That makes sense. I just want to point out, in light of your taking the debate part of this forum seriously, that your two posts do not say the same thing.
Your goal is laudable. But there are far too many judgments for us to make about people during our lives to make it possible for all such judgments to be fully informed. We have to take shortcuts at times. A significant interest in, say, DBZ for a 35 year old does and probably should raise some red flags. And if there's no big reason to make a concerted effort to dig deeper, than most people will probably make their judgment then, if only because they have other, more important things to think about (supposedly).
I think you're taking the poster out of context and you're actually both right along the same lines. He didn't insinuate that you should throw away your safety judgements, just...frivilous things like their clothing or abnormal hobbies.
I am very,very bad at compromises and I'd rather be single than compromise with a woman to be with her.
That's not man-childish at all until you're reflexively saying you were incompatible after the fact to unwittingly make yourself feel better.
Nah. Try being a just graduated student living in somewhere like London or Cambridge minimum tens of grand in debt. I've seen plenty of people make some really dumb choices because they've insisted on being a big boy/girl now.
Edit: And lets face it you're not leaving the 'protection of the nest', you're some spoilt middleclass kid who knows if he done fucks up he can go running back to mummy and daddy.
It's more that I spend time with them,realize that I like them but then remember if I would be together with them I could not do the things I like and which are fun for me anymore and that that those things rank higher for me than a woman.
I think you misunderstand my point.
What I'm saying is that who you socialize with is not an uncorrelated variable. You don't just hang out with people at random -- you choose whom you socialize with based on your personal preferences for certain behaviors, worldviews, and so on. Your friends probably have some things in common, and fall into one or at most a few discrete social categories. This is judging behaviorally. Even if you pat yourself on the back for being accepting and everything, you're still making judgments of value and acting on them. You're evaluating someone's behavior and saying "I want to hang out with them" or "I don't want to hang out with them." I'm sure there are people you respect more than others; some you show deference to, and others you do not; etc.
That's normal, and healthy, and a simple reality of life.
You'll have to ask the rabbit, he's the one who handles matters of timing.
Yeah, upon re-reading it I can see where that came from. I'll edit it to be more accurate. And, in my defense, I'm an awful debater.
I did say it fails, too. :P It's a personal goal I know I can never achieve, but I can try to dammit. I feel it has bettered me as a person. And, well, I would like for other people to do the same for me, given certain personal details that are unrelated to "Man-Children". Kind of a Golden Rule-ish deal. But you're 100% correct, sometimes you need to make a snap judgement of somebody to function because there are just so many people out there. I just really can't fathom actively judging people because, welp, humans are like that.
Natives, definitely. Economic climate or not though, I find it repugnant to put your parents, who are likely also facing tough financial questions themselves, in a position where they are again providing for you. One can say that a parent who wouldn't help their kid out is a bad parent but I come from the background of being forcibly pushed out of the nest at 19 and living in squalor, both employed and unemployed off and on for the next 3 years.
No worries. Your point is well-taken and I wish more people would spend time WHY they are making certain judgments; for example, did I walk to the other side of the street because the guy was aggressive or just because he's black? Or in a less charged example, did I dismiss that person because she truly is a ditz or just because she's blond and pretty?
If we start to focus on better markers, then even our snap judgments will improve. To draw from this thread, I think being actively into cosplay is a better marker than an interest in video games, considering how large the pool of gamers is and how relatively small the population of cosplayers is.
What I'm saying is that engaging in social behavior with people is a factor of knowing people, and having some interest in an activity in common with them.
Unlike mrt144 or Irond Will however I do not feel the need to talk about how all married people are sheeples.