Actually, I should send you some replays I have of HuK and Kiwi using hallucinate vs zerg. Basically, they toss down hallucinated collosus when they retreat and they have them lag ever so slightly behind the real ones. Corrupters swoop in for collosus kill, stalkers snipe a corrupter or two for free.
And Adel Scott loves to use hallucinate to make void rays vs terran to tank viking shots. Makes a standard two base timing attack with three collosus the stuff of nightmares.
Streltsy you can't really compare direct times like that. You have to factor in other things like tech tree (time, cost, etc), what it does to your build if you choose that path, etc
For Terran, getting Ghosts is as easy as a Ghost Academy. For Zerg, it's harder as they need to go Lair (what Zerg doesn't get Lair anyway) -> Infestation Pit. Protoss have to go Twilight Council -> Templar Archives (and then research storm!) BUT, going TC first often precludes going Robo or Stargate
No you can't, I agree.
But getting ghosts is not easy, they chew up tons of gas and getting them at even slightly the wrong time in the slightly the wrong numbers can really screw you over hard. I know from experience.
So don't trivialize getting ghosts. Same thing with infestors I'm pretty sure. Every race has gas units they need critically and that spellcasters cut into, I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but it isn't unique.
I'm not sure why Protoss feel they should get instant game-changing spells on warp-in while the other races don't have that. Especially when you consider storm is arguably the most powerful of these damage-dealing spells in the game (due to its incredible synergy with FFs and collosi, and it's area denial). You can effectively hold off tons of crap right after losing a huge fight by warping in a couple of templars, where are the T and Z units which can single-handedly do the same?
They're still better than infestors and ghosts as they at least have merge + feedback to use while they're waiting on storm (meanwhile ghosts and infestors are effectively building in the rax/larva).
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
Man...the problem with HT's and colossi is that they step on each other's toes too much. *snip*
Then they should have nerfed colossi and kept HTs the same/similar. Make the stronger unit the one that takes effort to aim the damage and dies easily rather than the one that is "A-move/back away sometimes".
I'm 100% fine with such a change. They are just too similar as is...they need to differentiate them more.
edit: going off of cork's point, another thing with the change is your templar army will be less mobile because instead of warping in storms at proxy pylons, you have to move your temps around with your army as you charge them
and they are hella hella slow
i wonder if peeps would get warp prisms to cart them around
that would actually be p cool
It could be like reaver drops!
...except not cool or fun
Someone needs to explain to me these numbers. Going from TL's wiki, all three casters have 25+ starting mana upgrades (Until tomorrow). All three spells cost 75 mana. So what's going on with ghosts and infestors that they can't cast right away? Do they normally start with only 25 mana? I've never really checked exact starting mana for anything or done anything like that, really.
MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
The logic is you warp in an HT, which is instant, and then wait for energy to generate. Whereas infestors and ghosts have build times, but come out with enough energy to do whatever.
The logic is you warp in an HT, which is instant, and then wait for energy to generate. Whereas infestors and ghosts have build times, but come out with enough energy to do whatever.
You warp in the unit, and you effectively wait for it's build time to have enough energy to storm. Exactly like the other races except your unit is on the map and can feedback/merge while the other casters are building.
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Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
So instead of our units being semi protected, they can be out on the map under threat of snipers?
Hurray!
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
The logic is you warp in an HT, which is instant, and then wait for energy to generate. Whereas infestors and ghosts have build times, but come out with enough energy to do whatever.
EDIT: ninja'd
because warpgates dont have cooldowns
I never said I agreed with such logic....I was just explaining why people were posting the numbers...:P
The logic is you warp in an HT, which is instant, and then wait for energy to generate. Whereas infestors and ghosts have build times, but come out with enough energy to do whatever.
EDIT: ninja'd
because warpgates dont have cooldowns
I never said I agreed with such logic....I was just explaining why people were posting the numbers...:P
Explain to me what's wrong with the logic.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
You warp in the unit, and you effectively wait for it's build time to have enough energy to storm. Exactly like the other races except your unit is on the map and can feedback/merge while the other casters are building.
Khaydarin amulet should be considered for removal under it's own merits....not for the reason of making the units more similar....aren't you always going on how you can't directly compare units between the three races like that?
Warping in an amuletless templar essentially puts your production on hold while the templar gains energy. You replaced a production cycle that could have been immediately useful with one that is temporarily useless, leaving a window of vulnerability
with terran production cycles, you have to wait a production time regardless of unit choice. Choosing ghost over marauder doesn't create a period of useless reinforcement, you just end up with something different at the end
Why not see how protoss fare without the upgrade in high level play before getting upset! They already dominated the GSL so let's just see how they do instead of stooping to their level and being clowntoss!
Why not see how protoss fare without the upgrade in high level play before getting upset! They already dominated the GSL so let's just see how they do instead of stooping to their level and being clowntoss!
It's not like there's going to be a sudden drop in protoss play, collosi were already the go to unit. there's just going to be a ton less variety. booooooring
Why not see how protoss fare without the upgrade in high level play before getting upset! They already dominated the GSL so let's just see how they do instead of stooping to their level and being clowntoss!
yeah if there was one thing that stood out in the GSL it was mc's amazing high templar play.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
For the record...I am not complaining about the removal b/c I think it "nerfs" protoss. They were already OP late game with colossi and HT's. The problem is...the way they are going about fixing it. Colossi are already the go to unit. This is only going to make them even more dominant (most likely.... it certainly doesn't make going HT more attractive). Like other people have already stated...I find colossi dreadfully boring and would much rather see them nerfed into the ground and force protoss to make HT's.
EDIT: What i'm saying here is, Protoss are fine. Even without instant storms, they'll be A-OK. Calm down.
Duld, it's not always about overall balance of the match-ups.
I understand that, but I dont see why not allowing HT's to have insta-storm means they'll never be made. They still have options, it's just that said options arent overtly strong. I still want to see how this will affect high-level play.
Today I was thinking why don't zerg use nydus worm like protoss use warpgate? i.e. get reinforcements into an attack nearly instantly instead of rallying them across the entire map
Late to the party, but I felt the need to respond.
Zerg doesn't use nydus worms to reinforce attacks because zerg doesn't attack. By the time nydus comes into play P and T are too entrenched. What are you gonna do.. run zerglings into their wall?.. try to tank their siege tank line with roaches trying to run up their ramp? Send waves of dudes into lines of bunkers? Get your dumb ass cut in half on their ramp by a FF and picked apart?
The only time zerg attacks a base with non-mutas is a baneling bust (doesn't need worm at all), a roach rush (way too early for worm), or if you already won and have 36 ultras.
A protoss did anything this month so they must need to be nerfed.
Haven't you heard, Walrus?
Every single patch as nerfed Protoss so far. Except for maybe like... 1?
well, the buildings got a slight boost in overall HP...
but zealots got nerfed
Initial VRs got nerfed vs. armored and buildings, but good lord, this was deserved.
VRs got nerfed again with removal of flux vanes
HTs got nerfed with removal of amulet
observers got a slight boost.
phoenixes got a pretty hefty boost.
motherships got YAN.
carriers are near useless.
i don't know, HTs are an incredibly large, long investment, and they should be incredibly powerful units.
i think that i'm beginning to agree with a bunch of people here, the OP bit of P is FF and Collosus, and they've nerfed everything but FF and collosus.
EDIT: What i'm saying here is, Protoss are fine. Even without instant storms, they'll be A-OK. Calm down.
Duld, it's not always about overall balance of the match-ups.
I understand that, but I dont see why not allowing HT's to have insta-storm means they'll never be made. They still have options, it's just that said options arent overtly strong. I still want to see how this will affect high-level play.
Posts
Hallucinate is an underrated "I win" button against zerg who move out without an overseer.
:P
Except that one Terran I tricked that one time during a lobby!
Boy was his face red.
I tried it against him the next time and then he scanned.
And Adel Scott loves to use hallucinate to make void rays vs terran to tank viking shots. Makes a standard two base timing attack with three collosus the stuff of nightmares.
No you can't, I agree.
But getting ghosts is not easy, they chew up tons of gas and getting them at even slightly the wrong time in the slightly the wrong numbers can really screw you over hard. I know from experience.
So don't trivialize getting ghosts. Same thing with infestors I'm pretty sure. Every race has gas units they need critically and that spellcasters cut into, I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but it isn't unique.
I'm not sure why Protoss feel they should get instant game-changing spells on warp-in while the other races don't have that. Especially when you consider storm is arguably the most powerful of these damage-dealing spells in the game (due to its incredible synergy with FFs and collosi, and it's area denial). You can effectively hold off tons of crap right after losing a huge fight by warping in a couple of templars, where are the T and Z units which can single-handedly do the same?
They're still better than infestors and ghosts as they at least have merge + feedback to use while they're waiting on storm (meanwhile ghosts and infestors are effectively building in the rax/larva).
I'm 100% fine with such a change. They are just too similar as is...they need to differentiate them more.
It could be like reaver drops!
...except not cool or fun
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Someone needs to explain to me these numbers. Going from TL's wiki, all three casters have 25+ starting mana upgrades (Until tomorrow). All three spells cost 75 mana. So what's going on with ghosts and infestors that they can't cast right away? Do they normally start with only 25 mana? I've never really checked exact starting mana for anything or done anything like that, really.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
EDIT: ninja'd
because warpgates dont have cooldowns
^^^^. Why can't I inject my barracks and then warp 4 marauders in next to my supply depots?!
Or am I still that sick?
How is it silly?
You warp in the unit, and you effectively wait for it's build time to have enough energy to storm. Exactly like the other races except your unit is on the map and can feedback/merge while the other casters are building.
Hurray!
I never said I agreed with such logic....I was just explaining why people were posting the numbers...:P
I really don't see protoss having any right to complain.
forcefields are just eye-gougingly depressing.
Or you could be hunting the "snipers".
Feedback, it's pretty good man.
Explain to me what's wrong with the logic.
Khaydarin amulet should be considered for removal under it's own merits....not for the reason of making the units more similar....aren't you always going on how you can't directly compare units between the three races like that?
with terran production cycles, you have to wait a production time regardless of unit choice. Choosing ghost over marauder doesn't create a period of useless reinforcement, you just end up with something different at the end
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
It's not like there's going to be a sudden drop in protoss play, collosi were already the go to unit. there's just going to be a ton less variety. booooooring
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
yeah if there was one thing that stood out in the GSL it was mc's amazing high templar play.
Oh.
EDIT: What i'm saying here is, Protoss are fine. Even without instant storms, they'll be A-OK. Calm down.
Haven't you heard, Walrus?
Every single patch as nerfed Protoss so far. Except for maybe like... 1?
Duld, it's not always about overall balance of the match-ups.
I understand that, but I dont see why not allowing HT's to have insta-storm means they'll never be made. They still have options, it's just that said options arent overtly strong. I still want to see how this will affect high-level play.
In summary Gnome, t0t
Late to the party, but I felt the need to respond.
Zerg doesn't use nydus worms to reinforce attacks because zerg doesn't attack. By the time nydus comes into play P and T are too entrenched. What are you gonna do.. run zerglings into their wall?.. try to tank their siege tank line with roaches trying to run up their ramp? Send waves of dudes into lines of bunkers? Get your dumb ass cut in half on their ramp by a FF and picked apart?
The only time zerg attacks a base with non-mutas is a baneling bust (doesn't need worm at all), a roach rush (way too early for worm), or if you already won and have 36 ultras.
yessss
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
well, the buildings got a slight boost in overall HP...
but zealots got nerfed
Initial VRs got nerfed vs. armored and buildings, but good lord, this was deserved.
VRs got nerfed again with removal of flux vanes
HTs got nerfed with removal of amulet
observers got a slight boost.
phoenixes got a pretty hefty boost.
motherships got YAN.
carriers are near useless.
i don't know, HTs are an incredibly large, long investment, and they should be incredibly powerful units.
i think that i'm beginning to agree with a bunch of people here, the OP bit of P is FF and Collosus, and they've nerfed everything but FF and collosus.
Joe's Stream.
The game done changed...
*drum roll*
DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS
Also they switched up shakuras so there's no longer back doors
PSN: Robo_Wizard1