On top of that, the ones who queue with friends? Now our healers and tanks are literally doing a thankless job. Because Blizzard won't even give them loot if they don't go without their friends.
So not only do people get screwed over for rolling Mage, Hunter, Warlock, and Rogue, but they get screwed over for liking their guild enough to run dungeons with them.
I plan to do both. Run with my guild if they need me, run solo if they don't. Currently, as it stands, I run with my guild if they need me, and never run solo. So this system gets one more tank into the system.
On the subject of tanks, 3 gems from the past 24 hours in instances I healed (leveling paladin).
1. Throne of the Tides. First thing I see is "this is my first cata tanking experience, but I've healed this place before." 35k HP pally tank, proceeds to stand in anything and everything that can kill him. Poison, water spouts, void fissures, whatever. Just stand in that shit all day.
2. Stonecore. Druid tank, doesn't allow any CC and pulls with hurricane. After pulling, doesn't hold any AE threat and allows Berserkers to beat on me (the healer). I point out that I'd have an easier time keeping him alive if he kept mobs off me, he said the Berserkers randomly charge. When people insist that no, I actually had aggro, he gets all emo. He goes "ya ya just blame me idc. easier that way." Then he tells me I have BUBBLE. Then goes "it's just a regular chill the fuck out."
3. BRC. DK tank, another "This is the first time I've tanked but I heal mostly." Repeatedly pulls without the group anywhere near him. Never asks if anyone's ready. Pulls packs that are next to pats, or pats when they're right next to packs. Asks me to explain Steelbender, then charges into the firepit 5 seconds into the explanation. When we ask him why he's tanking like an asshole, he goes "sorry i shouldn't take drink."
So yeah. I'm not sure encouraging MORE PEOPLE LIKE THIS to tank is really a solution to anyone's problems.
Tanks DO solo que. The issue at hand is that they que less regularly by themselves then other roles. This is why solo DPS ques are so high.
This is supposed to increase the number of tanks that are solo queing by offering them an incentive for doing so.
It's not just that though. There are, simply, less tanks. And less healers. The problem isn't just that they aren't queuing, it's that they aren't there.
Although them not queuing is a big problem too.
The funny thing will be to see how the inevitable tank/healers sitting around not queuing, waiting for CTA to pop up for them, will effect queue times.
No see you're just whiny.
We need these people tanking because 40 minute queues are not as bad as sitting in a dungeon for an hour and a half because Shitbag McTank deserves that Barons mount.
At this point it's starting to feel like the theme of 4.1 is band aid attempts to fix larger underlying problems with the game. Seems like everything in it is some form of hastily cobbled together stop gap.
Firelands better be Karazhan/Ulduar level fucking amazing.
I thought the theme of 4.1 was "we're going to do smaller and faster patches like we used to," which is why 4.1 has been on the PTR forever and keeps having shit packed into it. At this rate, 4.1 is looking like it will take almost as long as 3.1 did.
Hey guys tanks and healers have a stressful thankless job and aren't going into heroics enough to keep up with the huge number of people who want to play the PEW PEW.
Well lets give them a non-gear incentive to run heroics and reduce time in the que for everyone!
The general range bias that was present in all heroics in TBC as well (I was initially a rogue in TBC, and heroics and Kara was an exercise in pain). Raids were nearly always better having range.
Melee is still a nice thing to have on the majority of the fights these days and you still have your couple melee friendly fights. Double Dragons, Maloriak, Neffy, Chewie, Magmaw...
I doubt the Call to Arms rewards will ever drop anything aside from some coin and an occasional flask, and very rarely a chicken or parrot. Once in a great while someone may get a rare mount, but only very rarely and with only slightly greater chance than farming the original drop. Or it'll be the goddamn amber Drake.
Either way, "a chance" does not equal "free shit thrown at tanks." Hell, I'm happy enough with the flask rewards (which I woulns likely donate to the guild, anyway).
At this point it's starting to feel like the theme of 4.1 is band aid attempts to fix larger underlying problems with the game. Seems like everything in it is some form of hastily cobbled together stop gap.
Firelands better be Karazhan/Ulduar level fucking amazing.
I thought the theme of 4.1 was "we're going to do smaller and faster patches like we used to," which is why 4.1 has been on the PTR forever and keeps having shit packed into it. At this rate, 4.1 is looking like it will take almost as long as 3.1 did.
Yeah. What the fucks the point of giving us 4.2 with the raid and 4.1 with the minor shit if Firelands is nearly done when 4.1 comes out? Is 4.2 JUST Firelands? Is there going to be more fixes, tweaks, etc. (besides the obvious bug fixes, nerf/buffs, etc.)
Styrofoam: Yeah because when I think of "Quick queues, leading the group, everyone assumes nothing is their fault for fear of retribution *which ironically gets kicked out!*" I think "Deserves a reward for being a real trooper".
Hey thanks for the great job that already has perks. Here's some perks.
I hope they change their minds about the rewards, so all of the silly geese bitching about how there's no benefit for dps with this change win, and then immediately go back to bitching about 40 minute dps queues.
Seriously, not one change that blizzard has tried to implement this patch has gone without someone complaining about it...
I don't like having to do a daily heroic, and needed to log in every day.
--okay, what about having just a weekly limit, and you can queue whenever you want?
NO! THEN THE QUEUES WILL GET LONGER BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL RUN THEM ON TUESDAY ONLY!!
My queues are too long
Okay, well, we can't make tanks queue up, how about we encourage them to run more than just the daily, but we won't make it bad by giving them valor or epics, how about random shit they can get anyways?
NO I WANT THAT STUFF TOO THIS ISNT FAIR!!!
My guild isn't big enough to hit the xp cap every day, this isnt fair.
Okay, how about extra rewards for stuff you'd do anyways...we'll call them challenges?
THIS IS STUPID.
Why did you take out ZG? I love that zone, bring it back!
Okay. We'll add it back as a 5 man, add new epic loot for hard to get slots, and give rewards for completing the zones.
REUSE OLD CONTENT WTF BLIZZ I QUIT. I WANT FEIRLANDS EVEN THOUGH I'M 7/12.
I am a slightly more than casual player as a paladin. There are some heroics I have never tanked, and others I have only been in 2-3 times in any spec. Knowing all the timings and strategies for the full list of heroic bosses and some of the trash encounters is beyond my time investment. All the heroics are "easy" once you've done the fights a few times, but it takes awhile to get to the point of having done them all a few times.
Also there is some degree of people wanting to have fully raid geared tanks in heroics. I can't compete with a T11 DK running through tanking and doing 11k dps while I am still waiting to hit my full heroic tank set. I certainly get spoiled when someone like that queues up.
Are they fucking kidding with this new system? Tanks and healers get instant queues and free items, pets and mounts.
Sounds totally fair.
Tanks or healers, since at any given time, only the lowest representation will get the call to arms bonus. Also, are DPS enjoying the 40-minute queues? Would they prefer nothing be done about it?
Also, I'm not really sure how other players getting non-combat pets and on rare occasions, mounts, hurts you.
It's not that others get them. It's that we will never, ever even have the OPTION to get them.
To put it another way - DPS get screwed either way. It's a "pick your poison" type of thing. That's not a good solution.
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
The best part is you could probably do all of these things during the duration of one dps queue.
I mean really if I feel bad for anyone, it's the poor tanks who don't even have the time to farm for all of those things in between their instant queues.
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
The best part is you could probably do all of these things during the duration of one dps queue.
And more easily.
Lets see I want Reigns of the Raven Lord: I can A) Go to sethekk halls and do it in 15 minutes for a not too terrible drop chance, or I can que for an instance and spend an hour burning through there for a stupidly small chance of getting any mount let alone the one I want.
The only possible solution I see is going back to WotLK design, where the heroics are 15-minute AoE fests where either you're not required by design to account for mechanics (e.g., Moorabi), or you can just ignore mechanics and plow a boss down in under 30 seconds, because at least in WotLK, the queues for DPS were somewhat reasonable. But of course, a bunch of people would cry about heroics being "too easy" if they did this (far more than are doing it now, since no matter what you think, 4.1 Cata heroics are still well beyond WotLK heroics in difficulty).
That and it would be a huge time investment to redesign/shorten Cata heroics this much now, in addition to the fact that they'd have to revert the changes to tank AoE abilities that they consciously made for Cata.
Sounds fine as long as I can get unlimited attempts per day to get the ravenlord mount like tanks will instead of the current one per day.
I think the call to arms idea is a great starting point. But I agree, this is the part that doesn't seem right. Rewards flasks, gold, and non combat pets. Just don't reward the mounts that the rest of the population only gets one shot a day at.
The OPTION to get what, exactly? I'm pretty sure you can go farm Stratholme or heroic Sethekk, or farm herbs for flasks, or whatever, to get these same rewards. I don't think they're offering anything exclusive from Call to Arms.
The best part is you could probably do all of these things during the duration of one dps queue.
And more easily.
Lets see I want Reigns of the Raven Lord: I can A) Go to sethekk halls and do it in 15 minutes for a not too terrible drop chance, or I can que for an instance and spend an hour burning through there for a stupidly small chance of getting any mount let alone the one I want.
TOUGH CHOICES
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
I have like the weirdest raiding experiences ever on my Holy Paladin. Last night after I had given up trying to find someone to raid with I see a msg 'Looking for a Paladin for BWD'. I respond with 'Holy?' and he says they don't care they just want a Paladin for a guild run. I throw my hat in the ring and get there. Talk about a weird raid makeup... two rogues, two dk's, three priests, one lock, one shaman, and me. They wanted Kings, ha. Anyway I find out it is an in progress run from the day before and they are on Atramedes.
So now on my Paladin I have kills for: Maloriak, Atramedes [x2], Chimaeron [x2], attempted Nefarian last night [hahaha] and have attempted Council [sooo close].
I have never even tried to heal Magmaw, Omnitron, Halfus, or Twins. I just keep finding in progress raids and skip the early bosses. On my hunter I have done Magmaw, Halfus, and Maloriak but only killed Magmaw.
I wish I could find someone that starts at 8PM MTN and raids two weeknights a week. Everything is starting at 6ST [7 mtn] or weekends or three nights.
If they gave everyone an offhand / relic / wand / shield option the only people being left out would be Hunters. I wouldn't have a problem with that, and they did add in a Ranged epic from points late BC IIRC. Maybe make them ilvl353?
Well, Heroth's concern was with primary weapons (i.e., daggers for a rogue), not stat slot items. That's kind of a different issue.
Melee is still a nice thing to have on the majority of the fights these days and you still have your couple melee friendly fights. Double Dragons, Maloriak, Neffy, Chewie, Magmaw...
Melee friendly isn't the same thing as melee preferred, though. I'd say the only fights that are melee preferred would be Double Dragons and Nefarian. I don't know why you even listed Cho'gall. Too much melee is a liability on that fight -- the more ranged, the better.
And, no, the majority of fights could be done just as well, if not better, with no melee. The same never applies to no ranged.
On top of that, where's the incentive for tanks with the current incoming change?
"Oh I'm not Call to Arms? Fuck that, I ain't tankin, I'll wait for it to come back to me."
40 minutes of DPS Queues later...Tank call to arms!
"Alright then"
Oh look now nothing has changed AND they get paid for being assholes!
Hooray progress!
On top of that, where's the incentive for tanks with the current incoming change?
"Oh I'm not Call to Arms? Fuck that, I ain't tankin, I'll wait for it to come back to me."
40 minutes of DPS Queues later...Tank call to arms!
"Alright then"
Oh look now nothing has changed AND they get paid for being assholes!
Hooray progress!
Posts
I plan to do both. Run with my guild if they need me, run solo if they don't. Currently, as it stands, I run with my guild if they need me, and never run solo. So this system gets one more tank into the system.
Sounds fine as long as I can get unlimited attempts per day to get the ravenlord mount like tanks will instead of the current one per day.
1. Throne of the Tides. First thing I see is "this is my first cata tanking experience, but I've healed this place before." 35k HP pally tank, proceeds to stand in anything and everything that can kill him. Poison, water spouts, void fissures, whatever. Just stand in that shit all day.
2. Stonecore. Druid tank, doesn't allow any CC and pulls with hurricane. After pulling, doesn't hold any AE threat and allows Berserkers to beat on me (the healer). I point out that I'd have an easier time keeping him alive if he kept mobs off me, he said the Berserkers randomly charge. When people insist that no, I actually had aggro, he gets all emo. He goes "ya ya just blame me idc. easier that way." Then he tells me I have BUBBLE. Then goes "it's just a regular chill the fuck out."
3. BRC. DK tank, another "This is the first time I've tanked but I heal mostly." Repeatedly pulls without the group anywhere near him. Never asks if anyone's ready. Pulls packs that are next to pats, or pats when they're right next to packs. Asks me to explain Steelbender, then charges into the firepit 5 seconds into the explanation. When we ask him why he's tanking like an asshole, he goes "sorry i shouldn't take drink."
So yeah. I'm not sure encouraging MORE PEOPLE LIKE THIS to tank is really a solution to anyone's problems.
It's not just that though. There are, simply, less tanks. And less healers. The problem isn't just that they aren't queuing, it's that they aren't there.
Although them not queuing is a big problem too.
The funny thing will be to see how the inevitable tank/healers sitting around not queuing, waiting for CTA to pop up for them, will effect queue times.
We need these people tanking because 40 minute queues are not as bad as sitting in a dungeon for an hour and a half because Shitbag McTank deserves that Barons mount.
Well lets give them a non-gear incentive to run heroics and reduce time in the que for everyone!
PEW PEWs: WHY U GIV DEM STUFF BLIZZ?
Either way, "a chance" does not equal "free shit thrown at tanks." Hell, I'm happy enough with the flask rewards (which I woulns likely donate to the guild, anyway).
Yeah. What the fucks the point of giving us 4.2 with the raid and 4.1 with the minor shit if Firelands is nearly done when 4.1 comes out? Is 4.2 JUST Firelands? Is there going to be more fixes, tweaks, etc. (besides the obvious bug fixes, nerf/buffs, etc.)
Styrofoam: Yeah because when I think of "Quick queues, leading the group, everyone assumes nothing is their fault for fear of retribution *which ironically gets kicked out!*" I think "Deserves a reward for being a real trooper".
Hey thanks for the great job that already has perks. Here's some perks.
Seriously, not one change that blizzard has tried to implement this patch has gone without someone complaining about it...
I don't like having to do a daily heroic, and needed to log in every day.
--okay, what about having just a weekly limit, and you can queue whenever you want?
NO! THEN THE QUEUES WILL GET LONGER BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL RUN THEM ON TUESDAY ONLY!!
My queues are too long
Okay, well, we can't make tanks queue up, how about we encourage them to run more than just the daily, but we won't make it bad by giving them valor or epics, how about random shit they can get anyways?
NO I WANT THAT STUFF TOO THIS ISNT FAIR!!!
My guild isn't big enough to hit the xp cap every day, this isnt fair.
Okay, how about extra rewards for stuff you'd do anyways...we'll call them challenges?
THIS IS STUPID.
Why did you take out ZG? I love that zone, bring it back!
Okay. We'll add it back as a 5 man, add new epic loot for hard to get slots, and give rewards for completing the zones.
REUSE OLD CONTENT WTF BLIZZ I QUIT. I WANT FEIRLANDS EVEN THOUGH I'M 7/12.
what is everyone else's genius plan to fix the que times?
Also there is some degree of people wanting to have fully raid geared tanks in heroics. I can't compete with a T11 DK running through tanking and doing 11k dps while I am still waiting to hit my full heroic tank set. I certainly get spoiled when someone like that queues up.
This isn't a serious suggestion.
They're not shitting on dps.
They're improving your que times.
The best part is you could probably do all of these things during the duration of one dps queue.
I mean really if I feel bad for anyone, it's the poor tanks who don't even have the time to farm for all of those things in between their instant queues.
And more easily.
Lets see I want Reigns of the Raven Lord: I can A) Go to sethekk halls and do it in 15 minutes for a not too terrible drop chance, or
TOUGH CHOICES
The only possible solution I see is going back to WotLK design, where the heroics are 15-minute AoE fests where either you're not required by design to account for mechanics (e.g., Moorabi), or you can just ignore mechanics and plow a boss down in under 30 seconds, because at least in WotLK, the queues for DPS were somewhat reasonable. But of course, a bunch of people would cry about heroics being "too easy" if they did this (far more than are doing it now, since no matter what you think, 4.1 Cata heroics are still well beyond WotLK heroics in difficulty).
That and it would be a huge time investment to redesign/shorten Cata heroics this much now, in addition to the fact that they'd have to revert the changes to tank AoE abilities that they consciously made for Cata.
Increase all mob hp by 33% and I'd be down
I suggested this late wrath and everyone shit on me though.
I think the call to arms idea is a great starting point. But I agree, this is the part that doesn't seem right. Rewards flasks, gold, and non combat pets. Just don't reward the mounts that the rest of the population only gets one shot a day at.
TANK: I can get this bag that gives me a chance to get any of ALL THESE mounts while simultaneously earning JP, VP, Rep etc. And I can do it as many times a day as I like, plus I get instant queues and full control over the groups!
DPS: I can run sethekk halls! Once a day! Yay.
Queue.
That is all.
0431-6094-6446-7088
Want what tanks get? Play a god damn tank.
Too many vowels, its just unnatural.
Anyway, anyone who wants to bitch about this should be required to post their solution to dps wait time before the server processes their post.
So now on my Paladin I have kills for: Maloriak, Atramedes [x2], Chimaeron [x2], attempted Nefarian last night [hahaha] and have attempted Council [sooo close].
I have never even tried to heal Magmaw, Omnitron, Halfus, or Twins. I just keep finding in progress raids and skip the early bosses. On my hunter I have done Magmaw, Halfus, and Maloriak but only killed Magmaw.
I wish I could find someone that starts at 8PM MTN and raids two weeknights a week. Everything is starting at 6ST [7 mtn] or weekends or three nights.
How you doin'?
0431-6094-6446-7088
Call to Arms gives EVERYONE the loot bag, but only the Call to Arms class knows whether or not it's showing up (i.e no one is ever guaranteed the bag)
Queuing.
There is only one E.
So how is this going to increase the number of tanks?
Part of the point here is to give people an incentive to play something besides dps.
There are too many of you guys.
And, no, the majority of fights could be done just as well, if not better, with no melee. The same never applies to no ranged.
"Oh I'm not Call to Arms? Fuck that, I ain't tankin, I'll wait for it to come back to me."
40 minutes of DPS Queues later...Tank call to arms!
"Alright then"
Oh look now nothing has changed AND they get paid for being assholes!
Hooray progress!
Right but you need a pretty steep reward to actually get people to switch to playing tanks. There's inertia to overcome.
Rewarding everyone won't increase the number of tanks, it will just give everyone a goodie bag at the end of the run.
Let's be honest, its always going to be tanks.