Back on the list please-I thought I saw it mentioned that he was only interested in the base set and it will probably be a little while before someone wants to run one of those-atleast that's why I skipped him
I'd like to get back on to the list. On ze bottom, because I'm in a game right now.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back on the list please-I thought I saw it mentioned that he was only interested in the base set and it will probably be a little while before someone wants to run one of those-atleast that's why I skipped him
Well they haven't logged on since the 10th. Since they were here only 17 days before that I'm not real positive how long we should wait.
The Bloodletter upgrade in the Horned Rat expansion keeps coming up as a dominating factor in games. It seems to set up easy mode for Khorne (focus on dice/save his bloodbaths to score ruination bonuses and rack up a quick VP win), but it could be we just haven't figured out how to properly respond to it yet (perhaps with everyone fighting back aggressively, knocking Khorne's figures back off the board so he has to resummon them every round).
Should we try adjusting it, or let things continue to run their course for longer?
Possible fixes:
1. Complete nerf, substituting the base set bloodletter upgrade instead (may be overkill; with the loss of Skull Throne K might no longer be able to compete on VP, and games tend to be too short in the expansion for a reliable dial win)
2. Partial nerf
- limit to once per region
- drop to one VP per kill
I don't think the meta has adjusted fully yet- look at game 56, where I've been the only one to touch Khorne's figures, but it still doesn't look like he's guaranteed to win.
Give it a few more games and see if when people all gang up on Khorne a little more it fixes things, is my vote.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
I think it's too early to mess with the rules too.
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited November 2011
I don't see taking out Khorne's figures being a viable strategy. The only other God who can reliably play enough battle dice to matter is Nurgle. Moreover, if you're trying to take his figures out you're also giving Khorne targets and he'll more than likely be taking down multiple figures with him and thus still gaining VP.
Haven't followed this on BGG or anything so don't know if there is some consensus on what will balance it better. I do feel that it takes some fun out of the game once that upgrade happens since it requires everyone to gang up on Khorne some to balance-where the fun for me in the game is everyone picking on everyone/teaming up to gang on the leader. If that leader is always feared to be Khorne it makes the games more predictable (ie no fun).
Not sure if we would be able to agree on a forum wide "house" rule or just see what hosts/players want to do each game.
I know when I initially saw that upgrade I thought it was limited to once per region. This one seemed to fit in the best with the general Khorne dial strategy of spreading out dice in as many regions as possible but now you got some extra VP that helped Khorne stay competitive, not dominant.
I agree that it's too early in the life of the game to do our own rule nerf/errata. In the old version, players could and would feed Khorne figures without thinking about it, since VP was usually quicker than Dial even if Khrone was double-clicking regularly, and Khorne killing one figure in a region was the same as him killing 20 in a region. We just need to adjust our mentality, appreciate the threat Khorne poses, and stop feeding the big red monster our squishy cultists.
Now, if Khorne is still dominating by game 75 with players playing smart, then we may need to look at things again.
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
blahmcblahYou pick your side and you stick - you don't cut and run when things get ugly.Registered Userregular
edited November 2011
Alright, so this might be tough for people to hear, but we've got a problem, right here in PA Chaos City. And the problem is hosts not shuffling decks before games. So that whole "Grail showing up in every game" thing? As it turns out, totally not handtracker's fault. I probably would've noticed earlier, but I mostly stopped paying attention to all the games going on because I lost interest during/after my spectacular punt in Game 52. It was only when I went to confirm that I had three copies of Daemonic Subtlety in my deck for Game 59 that I noticed my opening five cards were the same as the first five cards in the template. Which means my deck wasn't shuffled. And the Grail showing up Round 1 again probably means the Old World deck wasn't shuffled either.
Just in case you're doubting, here's the real evidence:
First five cards in the base OW template: The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due, Road Wardens, Divine Inspiration
Game 47 (completed): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due, Road Wardens, Divine Inspiration
Game 55 (ongoing): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due
Game 56 (ongoing): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery
So what do we do about this? I have no idea, but I guess it's up to the hosts of those games. At least Game 59 is only three moves in and easy enough to just restart, but I'm afraid I just ruined Games 55 and 56 for all involved (seeing as it's now very simple to figure out the exact compositions of all the players' hands, as well as their future draws and the upcoming OWCs (if those decks remain unshuffled)), and I apologize for that, but I didn't think I could just sit on this. Although I have to admit that I did consider for a (very brief) moment playing my game knowing that I would draw 3x Festival of Sinew for round 4 if I made sure to be in a Warpstone region. And also knowing everything in everyone else's hands and the order the OWCs would come out in. Damned principles! Anyway...
My only issue with Bloodletters is that it might be too much of a "duh" upgrade unless Khorne double-ticked on Round One. In which case he MIGHT opt for something else. Tzeentch is in a similar boat, but I guess the original set had pretty obvious upgrades too. So it's not a terrible outcome if the expansion is the same deal. I was just hoping it might not be the case.
I am so happy my name isn't in that list. I was super paranoid about that when setting up 58.
Adamb has done a fantastic job over there but at one point he was asking about features people wanted to see.....either making shuffling a publicly viewable event or having it so certain decks automatically shuffle when added into a game would be a good thing to consider.
Yeah, a tag on the template to autoshuffle would be best. I did include "Finally, make sure you shuffle each deck before letting the players draw." in the instructions for handtracker, but that is something that is easy to overlook.
Are there any practical use-cases where we wouldn't want to shuffle immediately? I ask because doing it every time would be a one-line code change that could at least serve as a stop-gap for a proper auto-shuffle option (which we'd presumably default to "Yes, please").
Well, if something like the ruination cards are put on handtracker as a deck, it would need to maintain its order. For our purposes right now, autoshuffle would be much better for all the decks we're using (this game, Rune Wars, Android, Small World, Game of Thrones).
I like that when the crusade always coming up issue first happened everyone's first thought was that maybe the algorithm was messed up. When I'm hosting however blahmcblah was quick enough to realize, hey maybe just the host is incompetant-because they'd probably be right
PSN SeGaTai
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blahmcblahYou pick your side and you stick - you don't cut and run when things get ugly.Registered Userregular
Hey, it's an easy thing to miss. I'm just lucky I'm crazy enough that, before I hosted my first game, I actually read the whole host-training game, and in particular took note of Darian's list of things to do before starting the game.
Damn, I did not know that game existed. It's not like I haven't just been ripping off Darian's previous games at every turn, but to know there are detailed instructions out there!
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I pushed an update that causes all newly-created decks to be shuffled automatically. I also fixed the bug that caused an error every time you added a deck.
I pushed an update that causes all newly-created decks to be shuffled automatically. I also fixed the bug that caused an error every time you added a deck.
blahmcblahYou pick your side and you stick - you don't cut and run when things get ugly.Registered Userregular
edited November 2011
Hooray for admanb! At least now we can rest assured that this should never happen again. But I'll probably still shuffle all the decks like 5 times anyway just in case. Because, you know, the OCD makes me.
In the private game I'm running I just ended up screwing Khorne with two teleports causing him to move from 3 potential DAC's to 1. I felt a little bad but they were for solid "not screwing Khorne" reasons, really!
Then Electors came up.
Mighty fine way to welcome somebody to the game.
Anyways, can Khorne dial off of ruined regions? I could have sworn he couldn't but can't find that rule in the book.
Can someone give me a quick post of the first 4 nurgle dial advancments? I can't see them at work, evidently the company is now blocking boardgamegeek too.
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blahmcblahYou pick your side and you stick - you don't cut and run when things get ugly.Registered Userregular
Posts
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
Well they haven't logged on since the 10th. Since they were here only 17 days before that I'm not real positive how long we should wait.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Should we try adjusting it, or let things continue to run their course for longer?
Possible fixes:
1. Complete nerf, substituting the base set bloodletter upgrade instead (may be overkill; with the loss of Skull Throne K might no longer be able to compete on VP, and games tend to be too short in the expansion for a reliable dial win)
2. Partial nerf
- limit to once per region
- drop to one VP per kill
Other ideas that we could consider?
Give it a few more games and see if when people all gang up on Khorne a little more it fixes things, is my vote.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Not sure if we would be able to agree on a forum wide "house" rule or just see what hosts/players want to do each game.
I know when I initially saw that upgrade I thought it was limited to once per region. This one seemed to fit in the best with the general Khorne dial strategy of spreading out dice in as many regions as possible but now you got some extra VP that helped Khorne stay competitive, not dominant.
My two cents
Now, if Khorne is still dominating by game 75 with players playing smart, then we may need to look at things again.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
Just in case you're doubting, here's the real evidence:
First five cards in the base OW template: The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due, Road Wardens, Divine Inspiration
Game 47 (completed): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due, Road Wardens, Divine Inspiration
Game 55 (ongoing): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery, The Horned One's Due
Game 56 (ongoing): The Grail is Found, Warpstone Discovery
Game 59 (ongoing): The Grail is Found
Seeing a pattern?
So what do we do about this? I have no idea, but I guess it's up to the hosts of those games. At least Game 59 is only three moves in and easy enough to just restart, but I'm afraid I just ruined Games 55 and 56 for all involved (seeing as it's now very simple to figure out the exact compositions of all the players' hands, as well as their future draws and the upcoming OWCs (if those decks remain unshuffled)), and I apologize for that, but I didn't think I could just sit on this. Although I have to admit that I did consider for a (very brief) moment playing my game knowing that I would draw 3x Festival of Sinew for round 4 if I made sure to be in a Warpstone region. And also knowing everything in everyone else's hands and the order the OWCs would come out in. Damned principles! Anyway...
tl;dr
New hosts, please shuffle the decks. Thanks!
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Well, that's... problematic...
Twitch Stream
I am so happy my name isn't in that list. I was super paranoid about that when setting up 58.
Adamb has done a fantastic job over there but at one point he was asking about features people wanted to see.....either making shuffling a publicly viewable event or having it so certain decks automatically shuffle when added into a game would be a good thing to consider.
You sir, are a god!
The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
In the private game I'm running I just ended up screwing Khorne with two teleports causing him to move from 3 potential DAC's to 1. I felt a little bad but they were for solid "not screwing Khorne" reasons, really!
Then Electors came up.
Mighty fine way to welcome somebody to the game.
Anyways, can Khorne dial off of ruined regions? I could have sworn he couldn't but can't find that rule in the book.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
5 - Score 3 VP
10 - Remove 1 Corruption
13 - Upgrade
18 - Score 3 VP