I both want Gingrich to win the primary and for conservatives to believe that he is the pure conservative that they have been hankering for.
Except even if they believe it during the election, they will ret-con it the second he loses. The fact that he lost will be sufficient proof that he just wasn't conservative enough. I mean sure, he said he would dismantle the NEA and the DoE and eliminate capital gains tax and change the national anthem to Jesus Loves Me, but the voters could tell that he just didn't mean it.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I think the reason Gingrich is appealing is because he really fucking hates liberals and the media.
It's weird how quickly the worm turns, though. Wasn't he persona non grata earlier this year because he dared suggest that the Ryan plan wasn't the greatest thing since Reaganomics and that Rush may not be the best spokesman for the Republican party? And now he's the golden boy of the anyone but Romney crowd?
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Honestly, I like his blatant, naked hatred of the media. He hates them for all the wrong reasons, of course, but still. Partial props, at least.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
It's weird how quickly the worm turns, though. Wasn't he persona non grata earlier this year because he dared suggest that the Ryan plan wasn't the greatest thing since Reaganomics and that Rush may not be the best spokesman for the Republican party? And now he's the golden boy of the anyone but Romney crowd?
Almost everyone in the running has been golden boy for at least fifteen minutes.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Every week and a half it switches to a new "Not Romney" as the frontrunner. It's all meaningless bs until the primaries kick up and delegates start getting assigned. Right now they're all in the lead with zero votes.
I think Romney has the most consistent campaign. All he has to do is be less crazy than the rest of them. And as long as people like Bachmann, Santorum, and Paul are in there that's not that hard. All he has to do is be not a fascist, not a Nazi, and not from the 1890s respectively.
A majority of voters (53%) report that they would be somewhat or very comfortable with a Mormon serving as President, although more than 4-in-10 (42%) say that a Mormon president would make them somewhat or very uncomfortable.
That's huge. And it may partially explain why the GOP primary has been a constant churn of Anybody-But-Mitt contenders.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Possibly, the Jesus Vote is quite big in the GOP. I think if anyone's gonna steal it from Mittens, it'll be the Grinch. But i'm not convinced his bump isn't temporary. I'll remain skeptical until primaries start dishing out actual support.
Possibly, the Jesus Vote is quite big in the GOP. I think if anyone's gonna steal it from Mittens, it'll be the Grinch. But i'm not convinced his bump isn't temporary. I'll remain skeptical until primaries start dishing out actual support.
The real jaw-dropper is how across the board the Mormon fear is in that poll. With the exception of white Protestants, a majority of every single group has a problem with the idea of a Mormon president, and the negatives among white Protestants are very high.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a Bradley Effect on this issue, with Romney polling much better than his vote total.
A majority of voters (53%) report that they would be somewhat or very comfortable with a Mormon serving as President, although more than 4-in-10 (42%) say that a Mormon president would make them somewhat or very uncomfortable.
That's huge. And it may partially explain why the GOP primary has been a constant churn of Anybody-But-Mitt contenders.
And things like that often end up having a higher actual effect in the voting booth than they do in polls. A non-negligible amount of people being unwilling to admit they wouldn't vote for someone because of their religion. Black and other minority candidates often have the same problem, although it's less than it used to be.
Of course, a lot of those people think Obama's a muslim terrorist socialist, so they might end up biting the bullet and voting for the mormon.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Of course, a lot of those people think Obama's a muslim terrorist socialist, so they might end up biting the bullet and voting for the mormon.
Romney's problem in a general election is that his base - i.e. the people who believe Obama was born on Mars - are also the people most likely to say they are comfortable voting for a Mormon. He's going to have a huge problem with this.
His main ally on this issue will probably be Obama. I can't see him making Romney's religion an issue or tolerating members of his party acting as proxies. Since it hasn't come up much in the GOP primary outside of some flailing by Perry, I can see everybody pretending its not an issue while Romney's team hopes that the majority of voters just assume he's some whitebread Christian.
I honestly think him being a Mormon is a problem. Especially as someone who support gays marriage, mormons as a religion have been putting their money in other states to overturn gay marriage (california, iowa) so its a huge negative to me he supports their church.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I don't see Obama bringing it up and I don't see what's left of the GOP base being smart enough to know what's going on.
I'm betting the media ends up making it an issue, simply because the 24-hour news cycle guarantees that any and every issue that could be brought up will be debated endlessly. Most likely, some third-rate Democratic flack will say something slightly inflammatory, and the media will turn it into one of those weeks-long faux-scandals
One thing that's of note in that poll is how high the negatives are for the under-25 crowd. Since that groups is usually the least bigoted, that's an interesting exception.
Again I don't think its a faux scandal for democratic voters. The mormon church has an outreach of their morality over their desert state. If you are a democratic voter, thinking of voting for a president who subscribes to the mormon church is directly against most of the democratic ideals and it is a big damn deal. Its not that he's religious, its that the organization he supports is incredibly regressive with regards to equality.
The same as if a canidate was catholic and running and supported the church in the wake of the child abuse scandals I think that would also be a valid issue.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
And I don't think its bigoted to dislike Mormons as a group, as they have bigotry as a base in their religion and are putting their money where their mouth is, witness prop 8 and their spending on the state senator in Iowa to try and get gay marriage overturned there. They are campaigning against equality, and thats perfectly fine to be "bigoted" against.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Well it's no more bigoted than disliking other Christians for the same reasons. I just don't know why someone who is pro choice would ever consider voting for romney in the first place. But then again, I'm sure you can have Mormons who support abortion rights just like you can have Catholics and Protestants who feel the same.
But if the Mormon thing is going to be a problem, it'll be during the primary, not the general.
And I don't think its bigoted to dislike Mormons as a group, as they have bigotry as a base in their religion and are putting their money where their mouth is, witness prop 8 and their spending on the state senator in Iowa to try and get gay marriage overturned there. They are campaigning against equality, and thats perfectly fine to be "bigoted" against.
I think I come down on the side of the end of the South Park episode. The religion is pretty nutty, but it's a dick move to judge individual members on the basis of their church's beliefs and policies. There's too many issues with inherited culture, progressive movements inside of every church and the fact that being a member of a religion really doesn't mean that you believe all - or any, really - of the dogma.
Cults are a different story, but I think Mormonism has been around long enough to mutate from its cult roots to a religion. Romney's a sixth generation Mormon, which mostly means that he's one of billions of people who didn't reject his family' religious tradition when he reached adulthood. It's really impossible to judge what he believes beyond that, since that type of shit runs on autopilot for all but the most rebellious kids.
And I don't see Mitt Romney ever having a rebellious moment in his life.
Well it's no more bigoted than disliking other Christians for the same reasons. I just don't know why someone who is pro choice would ever consider voting for romney in the first place. But then again, I'm sure you can have Mormons who support abortion rights just like you can have Catholics and Protestants who feel the same.
But if the Mormon thing is going to be a problem, it'll be during the primary, not the general.
That's what I thought until I saw the polling. I'm actually a little shocked that mainstream white Protestants - aka the GOP base - are the most comfortable with Mormonism. Growing up around conservative Christians, I thought the Mormon thing would be a deal breaker.
And I don't think its bigoted to dislike Mormons as a group, as they have bigotry as a base in their religion and are putting their money where their mouth is, witness prop 8 and their spending on the state senator in Iowa to try and get gay marriage overturned there. They are campaigning against equality, and thats perfectly fine to be "bigoted" against.
I think I come down on the side of the end of the South Park episode. The religion is pretty nutty, but it's a dick move to judge individual members on the basis of their church's beliefs and policies. There's too many issues with inherited culture, progressive movements inside of every church and the fact that being a member of a religion really doesn't mean that you believe all - or any, really - of the dogma.
Cults are a different story, but I think Mormonism has been around long enough to mutate from its cult roots to a religion. Romney's a sixth generation Mormon, which mostly means that he's one of billions of people who didn't reject his family' religious tradition when he reached adulthood. It's really impossible to judge what he believes beyond that, since that type of shit runs on autopilot for all but the most rebellious kids.
And I don't see Mitt Romney ever having a rebellious moment in his life.
I would agree that you can't blame individuals for larger groups they happen to be associated with, you can judge them for their own beliefs and actions though.
I would agree that you can't blame individuals for larger groups they happen to be associated with, you can judge them for their own beliefs and actions though.
Yeah. There's plenty to dislike about Romney without ever bringing Mormonism into it.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Exactly.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
And I don't think its bigoted to dislike Mormons as a group, as they have bigotry as a base in their religion and are putting their money where their mouth is, witness prop 8 and their spending on the state senator in Iowa to try and get gay marriage overturned there. They are campaigning against equality, and thats perfectly fine to be "bigoted" against.
I think I come down on the side of the end of the South Park episode. The religion is pretty nutty, but it's a dick move to judge individual members on the basis of their church's beliefs and policies. There's too many issues with inherited culture, progressive movements inside of every church and the fact that being a member of a religion really doesn't mean that you believe all - or any, really - of the dogma.
Cults are a different story, but I think Mormonism has been around long enough to mutate from its cult roots to a religion. Romney's a sixth generation Mormon, which mostly means that he's one of billions of people who didn't reject his family' religious tradition when he reached adulthood. It's really impossible to judge what he believes beyond that, since that type of shit runs on autopilot for all but the most rebellious kids.
And I don't see Mitt Romney ever having a rebellious moment in his life.
I would agree that you can't blame individuals for larger groups they happen to be associated with, you can judge them for their own beliefs and actions though.
Basically this.
"I'm not voting for you because you're a Mormon, even though I have no idea what your stated positions are." is pretty bigoted.
"I'm not voting for you because I disagree with your stated positions, which align with your beliefs as a member of the Mormon faith." is not bigoted. Because it doesn't matter why you believe gays shouldn't be allowed to get married or adopt; if you believe that then I'm not going to vote for you.
I just love the irony that the same individuals who think Obama is a Muslim are likely to be the most opposed to voting for Mormon. Hell of a choice.
On the other hand, the mormons are really really white.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a Bradley Effect on this issue, with Romney polling much better than his vote total.
I think that's reflected in the Second Choice question on polls -- whether Bachmann, Perry, Cain or now Gingrich is the trending Not Romney, likely Republican primary voters always say Romney's their second choice. But when those candidates flame out, Romney never gets a bump. The vote always migrates to another Not Romney.
I don't know how soft the actual Romney support is because there are enough options out there as well as enough people who are actively voting Not Romney that it's not as socially unacceptable to say that you're not voting for Romney the same way it's not acceptable to say you're not voting for a black guy. I do suspect that there's strong potential for erosion if the Not Romney du jour (currently Gingrich, but who knows?) picks up sufficient steam in Iowa and New Hampshire.
I don't think it's bigoted at all to not like someone because he publicly, proudly proclaims his part in a horrible group, whether that group be secular or religious in nature. You're not judging someone on being mormon without knowing their views. Their being mormon TELLS you their views. It's a horrible religion, which is saying something. I similarly wouldn't vote for a member of the black panthers, regardless of their views. That's not bigotry.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I don't think it's bigoted at all to not like someone because he publicly, proudly proclaims his part in a horrible group, whether that group be secular or religious in nature. You're not judging someone on being mormon without knowing their views. Their being mormon TELLS you their views. It's a horrible religion, which is saying something. I similarly wouldn't vote for a member of the black panthers, regardless of their views. That's not bigotry.
I think the idea is to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. As in, maybe this particular Mormon doesn't believe women should be subservient, or that particular Catholic doesn't think all abortion should be banned.
I don't think it's bigoted at all to not like someone because he publicly, proudly proclaims his part in a horrible group, whether that group be secular or religious in nature. You're not judging someone on being mormon without knowing their views. Their being mormon TELLS you their views. It's a horrible religion, which is saying something. I similarly wouldn't vote for a member of the black panthers, regardless of their views. That's not bigotry.
I think the idea is to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. As in, maybe this particular Mormon doesn't believe women should be subservient, or that particular Catholic doesn't think all abortion should be banned.
Even more than that, the real question is how much a candidate is willing and intending to insert his/her religious beliefs into public policy.
It's the old, "I don't care what you believe behind closed doors, but leave that shit at home," rule of politics that the Right (and some on the Left) have largely forgotten.
It's never been about what religious beliefs you feel should be legislated into law; it's about ensuring that all religious beliefs are protected equally.
If you are a democratic voter, thinking of voting for a president who subscribes to the mormon church is directly against most of the democratic ideals and it is a big damn deal.
Harry Reid is a mormon, you know.
Anyway, given the GOP candidate selection, I imagine people will be willing to vote for Jesus with a side of Joseph Smith so long as it means voting against Gingrich, Perry & Bachmann.
Reporting that a mormon president would make you uncomfortable is also not the same as saying you wouldn't vote for one, and certainly isn't the same as saying you know which candidates are mormons.
Fox, as far as I can tell, has already decided that they'd like to send their kids to Camp Mittens, so the GOP base will likely follow suit almost regardless of any issue (just get O'Reilly on the camera to deliver his 'no spin, matter-of-fact-son' defense).
I don't think it's bigoted at all to not like someone because he publicly, proudly proclaims his part in a horrible group, whether that group be secular or religious in nature. You're not judging someone on being mormon without knowing their views. Their being mormon TELLS you their views. It's a horrible religion, which is saying something. I similarly wouldn't vote for a member of the black panthers, regardless of their views. That's not bigotry.
I think the idea is to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. As in, maybe this particular Mormon doesn't believe women should be subservient, or that particular Catholic doesn't think all abortion should be banned.
Then why the fuck is he a mormon? Stupid bigotry is kinda a super important part of their religion. Find me a mormon who doesn't think every gay is going to burn in hell, please.
It is a group of people with objectively horrible beliefs and he chooses to associate with it. The group being religious doesn't give him some sort of special pass. Religion is not special. I would not vote for anyone who announces their membership in "focus on the family", either. People have this ridiculous mental block about religion sometimes.
I don't think it's bigoted at all to not like someone because he publicly, proudly proclaims his part in a horrible group, whether that group be secular or religious in nature. You're not judging someone on being mormon without knowing their views. Their being mormon TELLS you their views. It's a horrible religion, which is saying something. I similarly wouldn't vote for a member of the black panthers, regardless of their views. That's not bigotry.
I think the idea is to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. As in, maybe this particular Mormon doesn't believe women should be subservient, or that particular Catholic doesn't think all abortion should be banned.
Then why the fuck is he a mormon? Stupid bigotry is kinda a super important part of their religion. Find me a mormon who doesn't think every gay is going to burn in hell, please.
It is a group of people with objectively horrible beliefs and he chooses to associate with it. The group being religious doesn't give him some sort of special pass. Religion is not special. I would not vote for anyone who announces their membership in "focus on the family", either. People have this ridiculous mental block about religion sometimes.
A lot of people consider the religion they were raised on to be part of their identity even if they disagree with major tenets of it.
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Except even if they believe it during the election, they will ret-con it the second he loses. The fact that he lost will be sufficient proof that he just wasn't conservative enough. I mean sure, he said he would dismantle the NEA and the DoE and eliminate capital gains tax and change the national anthem to Jesus Loves Me, but the voters could tell that he just didn't mean it.
Seriously. Nobody likes newts. They are gross and slimy. Also, Gingrich sounds like the Grinch tried to his name but in a really half-assed way.
It's weird how quickly the worm turns, though. Wasn't he persona non grata earlier this year because he dared suggest that the Ryan plan wasn't the greatest thing since Reaganomics and that Rush may not be the best spokesman for the Republican party? And now he's the golden boy of the anyone but Romney crowd?
Almost everyone in the running has been golden boy for at least fifteen minutes.
I think Romney has the most consistent campaign. All he has to do is be less crazy than the rest of them. And as long as people like Bachmann, Santorum, and Paul are in there that's not that hard. All he has to do is be not a fascist, not a Nazi, and not from the 1890s respectively.
http://publicreligion.org/research/2011/11/2011-american-values-survey/
That's huge. And it may partially explain why the GOP primary has been a constant churn of Anybody-But-Mitt contenders.
The real jaw-dropper is how across the board the Mormon fear is in that poll. With the exception of white Protestants, a majority of every single group has a problem with the idea of a Mormon president, and the negatives among white Protestants are very high.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a Bradley Effect on this issue, with Romney polling much better than his vote total.
And things like that often end up having a higher actual effect in the voting booth than they do in polls. A non-negligible amount of people being unwilling to admit they wouldn't vote for someone because of their religion. Black and other minority candidates often have the same problem, although it's less than it used to be.
Of course, a lot of those people think Obama's a muslim terrorist socialist, so they might end up biting the bullet and voting for the mormon.
Romney's problem in a general election is that his base - i.e. the people who believe Obama was born on Mars - are also the people most likely to say they are comfortable voting for a Mormon. He's going to have a huge problem with this.
His main ally on this issue will probably be Obama. I can't see him making Romney's religion an issue or tolerating members of his party acting as proxies. Since it hasn't come up much in the GOP primary outside of some flailing by Perry, I can see everybody pretending its not an issue while Romney's team hopes that the majority of voters just assume he's some whitebread Christian.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't see Obama bringing it up and I don't see what's left of the GOP base being smart enough to know what's going on.
I'm betting the media ends up making it an issue, simply because the 24-hour news cycle guarantees that any and every issue that could be brought up will be debated endlessly. Most likely, some third-rate Democratic flack will say something slightly inflammatory, and the media will turn it into one of those weeks-long faux-scandals
I blame South Park:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s07e12-all-about-mormons
The same as if a canidate was catholic and running and supported the church in the wake of the child abuse scandals I think that would also be a valid issue.
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
But if the Mormon thing is going to be a problem, it'll be during the primary, not the general.
I think I come down on the side of the end of the South Park episode. The religion is pretty nutty, but it's a dick move to judge individual members on the basis of their church's beliefs and policies. There's too many issues with inherited culture, progressive movements inside of every church and the fact that being a member of a religion really doesn't mean that you believe all - or any, really - of the dogma.
Cults are a different story, but I think Mormonism has been around long enough to mutate from its cult roots to a religion. Romney's a sixth generation Mormon, which mostly means that he's one of billions of people who didn't reject his family' religious tradition when he reached adulthood. It's really impossible to judge what he believes beyond that, since that type of shit runs on autopilot for all but the most rebellious kids.
And I don't see Mitt Romney ever having a rebellious moment in his life.
That's what I thought until I saw the polling. I'm actually a little shocked that mainstream white Protestants - aka the GOP base - are the most comfortable with Mormonism. Growing up around conservative Christians, I thought the Mormon thing would be a deal breaker.
destructive support
I would agree that you can't blame individuals for larger groups they happen to be associated with, you can judge them for their own beliefs and actions though.
Yeah. There's plenty to dislike about Romney without ever bringing Mormonism into it.
Basically this.
"I'm not voting for you because you're a Mormon, even though I have no idea what your stated positions are." is pretty bigoted.
"I'm not voting for you because I disagree with your stated positions, which align with your beliefs as a member of the Mormon faith." is not bigoted. Because it doesn't matter why you believe gays shouldn't be allowed to get married or adopt; if you believe that then I'm not going to vote for you.
I doubt it. It's not really his style. This may be the one presidential race where absolutely no one wants to bring up religion.
That would be refreshing.
On the other hand, the mormons are really really white.
I think that's reflected in the Second Choice question on polls -- whether Bachmann, Perry, Cain or now Gingrich is the trending Not Romney, likely Republican primary voters always say Romney's their second choice. But when those candidates flame out, Romney never gets a bump. The vote always migrates to another Not Romney.
I don't know how soft the actual Romney support is because there are enough options out there as well as enough people who are actively voting Not Romney that it's not as socially unacceptable to say that you're not voting for Romney the same way it's not acceptable to say you're not voting for a black guy. I do suspect that there's strong potential for erosion if the Not Romney du jour (currently Gingrich, but who knows?) picks up sufficient steam in Iowa and New Hampshire.
I think the idea is to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. As in, maybe this particular Mormon doesn't believe women should be subservient, or that particular Catholic doesn't think all abortion should be banned.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Even more than that, the real question is how much a candidate is willing and intending to insert his/her religious beliefs into public policy.
It's the old, "I don't care what you believe behind closed doors, but leave that shit at home," rule of politics that the Right (and some on the Left) have largely forgotten.
It's never been about what religious beliefs you feel should be legislated into law; it's about ensuring that all religious beliefs are protected equally.
Then again I'd hold being a proud catholic against someone too, so there's that
Harry Reid is a mormon, you know.
Anyway, given the GOP candidate selection, I imagine people will be willing to vote for Jesus with a side of Joseph Smith so long as it means voting against Gingrich, Perry & Bachmann.
Reporting that a mormon president would make you uncomfortable is also not the same as saying you wouldn't vote for one, and certainly isn't the same as saying you know which candidates are mormons.
Fox, as far as I can tell, has already decided that they'd like to send their kids to Camp Mittens, so the GOP base will likely follow suit almost regardless of any issue (just get O'Reilly on the camera to deliver his 'no spin, matter-of-fact-son' defense).
It is a group of people with objectively horrible beliefs and he chooses to associate with it. The group being religious doesn't give him some sort of special pass. Religion is not special. I would not vote for anyone who announces their membership in "focus on the family", either. People have this ridiculous mental block about religion sometimes.
A lot of people consider the religion they were raised on to be part of their identity even if they disagree with major tenets of it.
Its stupid but true.