This case has exhibited that Disney is aware of infringement in the form of con material, and letting it pass just cannot be allowed to continue as a legal and business practice. I cannot make that point any simpler. They legally have to go after artists alleys now to protect the $4 billion investment they made in Marvel and the IP that made Marvel so lucrative to Disney.
They pushed the counterclaim for this very reason. If you don't assert your ownership of IP, you lose it.
It's not scary. It's an artist's lawyer telling him he's legally in the wrong and he better stop, and that artist and other artists are heeding that lawyer's legal advice.
It's still relevant that Gary Friedrich is not an artist and was selling prints of other peoples' work, which is very different from artists selling their own work.
This case has exhibited that Disney is aware of infringement in the form of con material, and letting it pass just cannot be allowed to continue as a legal and business practice. I cannot make that point any simpler. They legally have to go after artists alleys now to protect the $4 billion investment they made in Marvel and the IP that made Marvel so lucrative to Disney.
They pushed the counterclaim for this very reason. If you don't assert your ownership of IP, you lose it.
Which is of course unfortunate, and when it comes down to it a lot of these guys are getting fucked because they signed leaky contracts (and no I don't blame them, because there were often other circumstances), but at the same time I don't really see any way out of it. What is Disney going to do? Let the infringement continue? Not in our lifetimes.
Just wanted to drop in and say that the conversation I had with you guys here actually assisted in this decision. I was on the fence about providing Green Wake for free but in the end felt that more readers and more eyes on my work, the better for me in the long term. Maybe it will lead to sales of the trade paperback, maybe not.
Also, as an aside, my new series, Peter Panzerfaust hits shelves tomorrow. Love to have your support. Here's a preview:
This case has exhibited that Disney is aware of infringement in the form of con material, and letting it pass just cannot be allowed to continue as a legal and business practice. I cannot make that point any simpler. They legally have to go after artists alleys now to protect the $4 billion investment they made in Marvel and the IP that made Marvel so lucrative to Disney.
They pushed the counterclaim for this very reason. If you don't assert your ownership of IP, you lose it.
Which is of course unfortunate, and when it comes down to it a lot of these guys are getting fucked because they signed leaky contracts (and no I don't blame them, because there were often other circumstances), but at the same time I don't really see any way out of it. What is Disney going to do? Let the infringement continue? Not in our lifetimes.
Except they have been for 3 years now!
Con sketches are never a big deal at all and I don't think they ever will be.
It is when artists or writers are selling prints of published Marvel material, even by other artists, that it becomes an issue. Doubly so since Marvel likely wanted to get back at Freidrich for the legal fees he cost them with his lawsuit in 2007.
See I didn't want to post that cause it is kinda snotty and what not, even though Templeton links to Frederich's donation site immediately following the comic
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
Oh my god the Enterprise is going to crash into that giant phonebooth!
Do not have a cow, mortal.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
That panel regarding Roy Thomas and Ploog is one where it doesn't acknowledge the point, just that those two disagree with it, when they could disagree with Friedrich because they thought he was a jerk or something else entirely.
Here's an interesting transcript of a roundtable discussion by Frank Miller, Jack Kirby, Steve Gerber, and Mark Evanier, discuss Kirby's legal troubles with Marvel.
EVANIER: There is a link here; it's the three words "work-for-hire." In 1976, the copyright laws in the country were amended to give the creator of the work a greater expanded power of copyright renewal. Prior to that time there had been some question that at the time the copyright expired, whether the copyright could be renewed by the writer of the book, or by the publisher of the book, or whoever. It was established clearly in that revision of the copyright law that the creator of the work had the right of renewal. So the comic book companies - and this happened outside comics as well - determined that they had to make themselves the creator. The phrase "work-for-hire" came into heavy usage at this point, and when you sign a work-for-hire contract with a comic book company, you are stating that the company is the creator, and has all rights of future renewal to the work, and you are an assistant. If Frank Miller writes a comic book, conceives of it, creates it, pencils it, letters it, inks it, colors it, takes it to the printer himself, if he signs that contract, he's saying the publisher did all that, and the publisher's the creator, and the publisher can not only get the right of copyright renewal, but any further legal rights that are ever granted in the future to the creator of the work.
KIRBY: You're leaving out one thing. The publisher did that arbitrarily; they printed that on the back of every check the artist ever got. If you didn't sign that check, you didn't get paid.
EVANIER: For a long time, the only way the companies attempted to qualify the rights was with the back of the check statement. That was your "contract" that you had to deposit at the bank. It was a non-negotiable contract. It was only in the late 1970s when they started selling the Hulk to television and Superman to movies that they went back and tried to retroactively clarify a lot of what they were claiming they had bought the rights to. Jack has never signed that work-for-hire contract, and that's a key point that has to be made. Jack got this contract that nobody else ever got to get his originals back. The reason is that Jack didn't sign a work-for-hire contract.
MILLER: It's also because Jack made up a lot of stuff that's worth a whole lot. The experts I've talked to on this confirm that the physical artwork is not related to the reproduction rights to it. It is simply the artist's work, unless he sells it. Since I gather Jack hasn't been confronted with a Bill of Sale from Marvel for those originals, no matter what they may claim about the reproduction rights to the material, the physical artwork is his.
MILLER: Beyond the amount of work Jack did and how well it sold, the fact is it's still making money. The most popular comic book in the country is the X-Men, which is one of Jack's. If you go down the list, probably five out of the next six down will be his. What he did for comics was enormous. The whole shape of comics in these times is based on Jack's work.
MARK EVANIER: It's not that uncommon for a new artist to apply for work at Marvel and be handed old Jack Kirby books, and told, "This is what we want."
MILLER: It was done with me.
EVANIER: There are artists to this day in the business who make their living tracing old Jack Kirby panels, rearranging them slightly, using it for their own purposes, and calling it their work.
HOUR 25: Fans come up to you with original pages of your own art; where do they get them?
KIRBY: I never ask because it embarrasses them. I tell them that the art is stolen; I have my own ideas on how it's passed around, and I've investigated it. It's not a complete picture, but I have a hazy picture of what really happens. If they're young people... I had a very young boy come up to me with a page of my artwork. I don't have the heart not to sign it. I'm not going to embarrass that child, or a female, or a very sincere fan, so I sign it. I have a high respect for the people in comics. I know the average comic fan is a heckuva guy.
It's still relevant that Gary Friedrich is not an artist and was selling prints of other peoples' work, which is very different from artists selling their own work.
i wonder how people feel about this now that story is becoming a little clearer.
CBR did an interview with Quesada and Buckley over the Freidrich case, one thing I thought should be posted here:
One broader issue that's been widely discussed is that of the convention economy and freelance artist's place in it. Everyone knows comic creators sell original art and other materials at artist's allies across the country. Marvel has even worked with some current freelancers to create licensed prints specifically for this purpose. But the view overall has been that artists are able to sell their wares without legal threat from the publisher. With this suit, has there been a whole cloth change in stance from Marvel regarding convention artist's alley business? And if so, what is Marvel's view of this practice? Does a creator have the right to sketch Spider-Man for fans for money?
Quesada: Let me put this as simply as I can: Marvel is not looking to make any new policy announcements through this lawsuit -- a lawsuit that began five years ago.
As a case in point, the Internet and the creative community became incredibly concerned when Disney acquired Marvel in 2009, thinking that Marvel now wouldn't return original art to its artists, even despite my publicly stating the contrary. As you can see, that was unfounded.
Buckley: We in no way want to interfere with creators at conventions who are providing a positive Marvel experience for our fans. We want fans to speak and interact with the creators who wrote, penciled, inked, lettered, colored or edited their favorite stories. Part of that positive interaction is that a fan can walk away with a signed memento or personalized sketch from an artist.
Notably, Marvel declined to comment from a question CBR asked Marvel not helping out/giving the original creators of their comics(Kirby, primarily I would assume) the credit and compensation many think they deserve.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Buckley skirts the issue that a lot of creators do at conventions, which is charge for sketches and commissions of characters. The way he phrased it is similar to just running into someone and getting their autograph or picture taken, things that are often free. The wording of that phrase seems carefully made, emphasizing positive experiences and interactions. To Marvel, it might not be so positive to have someone who they don't like in the industry charging for Spider-Man sketches or commissions. It would be best if he just said "creators have a right to sketch characters for money," but Buckley can't say that, because they legally don't (unless Marvel sells a license, Shooter seemed to do this retroactively sometimes for a buck). The word "We" in that answer could also mean just Buckley and Quesada would like things to continue as-is, but it doesn't necessarily mean Marvel as a whole, otherwise he would write "We at Marvel........"
There are just a lot of outs to that answer, much like a politician's speech.
Just wanted to drop in and say that the conversation I had with you guys here actually assisted in this decision. I was on the fence about providing Green Wake for free but in the end felt that more readers and more eyes on my work, the better for me in the long term. Maybe it will lead to sales of the trade paperback, maybe not.
Also, as an aside, my new series, Peter Panzerfaust hits shelves tomorrow. Love to have your support. Here's a preview:
Awesome! I'll have an empty spot on my pull list from Green Wake so I'll be sure to check it out!
I've pretty much committed to following Wiebe (gredavin) and Rossmo on any creator owned projects they do. I buy digital only though, and I wait for the price drop, so I doubt I'm being factored into the decision on whether to continue producing a comic.
Seems like the best place to put this, but if there are any roleplayers interested in a pbp supers game then I am planning to run one in the near future. If you want in, then feel free to post your preferences and so on in the thread I have set up in Critical Failures. Thanks!
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
I'd join but I am the fucking flakiest at everything
Well, it's a pbp and they tend to go slowly, plus I am pretty cool with people taking time out for various reasons because life comes first etc. So as long as you post every now and then, it's not a worry.
But I understand if you don't want to play unless you really want to get stuck in. It would be nice to have you along, but it's up to you. If you feel like giving it a go though, feel free to just post in the thread whenever, and if you want to start later one as long as the game is not too full that's fine, I am always cool with late arrivals.
Solar on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
David Brothers does the work comic news sites should be doing and makes a case that someone at Marvel is uploading scans with pre-press pages. Really interesting as it has always been said that it's just comic store owners or someone at the printer uploading comics online, but this evidence can only come back to Marvel proper. One of the best pieces of actual comics news I've seen since Newsarama pointed out how no one really worked at the Comic Code Authority for the past five years.
David Brothers does the work comic news sites should be doing and makes a case that someone at Marvel is uploading scans with pre-press pages. Really interesting as it has always been said that it's just comic store owners or someone at the printer uploading comics online, but this evidence can only come back to Marvel proper. One of the best pieces of actual comics news I've seen since Newsarama pointed out how no one really worked at the Comic Code Authority for the past five years.
That is impressive detective work, but ultimately in service of a conclusion that should have been accepted as obvious from the start. Of course *some* of the comics pirates have a source within the companies themselves. It's always been the case for video games, DVDs, music and everything else that gets pirated, why should comics be any different?
It's still relevant that Gary Friedrich is not an artist and was selling prints of other peoples' work, which is very different from artists selling their own work.
i wonder how people feel about this now that story is becoming a little clearer.
The same. Guess what? He's not the only person who does this.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
The first two points are the strongest, as there is sometimes a feeling with DC over the past 18 months that it feels like comics are being forced to assist Nelson or others to ascend higher in the Time Warner pyramid, and the comic store thing needs to seriously be looked at when you have a shrinking number of stores coupled with drag your feet online initiatives from companies. Point 5 seems to be all over the place in terms of the idea of artists and creators working for little but expecting a big reward down the line, I guess he's trying to make the point people in the current generation won't stay around if they can find more lucrative work, which is perfectly fine and understandable.
Point 5 seems to be all over the place in terms of the idea of artists and creators working for little but expecting a big reward down the line, I guess he's trying to make the point people in the current generation won't stay around if they can find more lucrative work, which is perfectly fine and understandable.
That's not exclusive to DC. It's encouraged at Marvel. Dan Slott basically thought it was almost like a rite of passage for creators to "give back" to the company and that giving companies good concepts is a privilege in itself. He said this at a convention, not in an interview.
The current or new generations moving into other media or occupations will only hasten the direct market's implosion.
Man, I'm worried about "comics" in the direct market sense because it's the smallest entertainment market around selling an antiquated product for a price most people won't bother paying.
Man, I'm worried about "comics" in the direct market sense because it's the smallest entertainment market around selling an antiquated product for a price most people won't bother paying.
Comics do better than pen and paper roleplaying games!
Man, I'm worried about "comics" in the direct market sense because it's the smallest entertainment market around selling an antiquated product for a price most people won't bother paying.
Comics do better than pen and paper roleplaying games!
Oh snap! In seriousness, though, I'd love to see a thorough comparison of the two genres. I imagine there's a lot of crossover in the customer base, and I'd like to know how much the average comics consumer spends per year compared to the average rpg consumer.
For the most part you only have to buy one book and you're done. Yeah a lot of games have countless supplemental books, but you aren't forced to get them. Unlike comics where the story isn't complete unless you keep buying issues.
Some of them are a little off, like the KC Green one. But most of them are dead on. I particularly like his Dan Hipp, Anthony Clark, and Moebius impressions.
For the most part you only have to buy one book and you're done. Yeah a lot of games have countless supplemental books, but you aren't forced to get them. Unlike comics where the story isn't complete unless you keep buying issues.
Not necessarily. Popular characters or teams have multiple titles plus mini-series (Justice League, Avengers, X-men, Batman, Spider-man etc). Some readers will buy cameos of said characters when they appear in other series, Wolverine & Batman do this a lot.
Some of them are a little off, like the KC Green one. But most of them are dead on. I particularly like his Dan Hipp, Anthony Clark, and Moebius impressions.
This is amazing. This guy is really versatile. Sam Keith, R. Crumb, Jamie Hewlett, Maurice Sendak, those are all so on the money.
The Chris Ware one is a little cluttered visually (Ware tends to have incredibly simplistic panels), but really captures the spirit.
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They pushed the counterclaim for this very reason. If you don't assert your ownership of IP, you lose it.
except that Gary Friedrich is a writer and not an artist, but still it's really scary
they are suing him for the prints he did of Marvel covers
Disney and Marvel have never gone after con sketches even after the merger and I would be astonished if they did now
Which is of course unfortunate, and when it comes down to it a lot of these guys are getting fucked because they signed leaky contracts (and no I don't blame them, because there were often other circumstances), but at the same time I don't really see any way out of it. What is Disney going to do? Let the infringement continue? Not in our lifetimes.
Con sketches are never a big deal at all and I don't think they ever will be.
It is when artists or writers are selling prints of published Marvel material, even by other artists, that it becomes an issue. Doubly so since Marvel likely wanted to get back at Freidrich for the legal fees he cost them with his lawsuit in 2007.
ahem
sorry
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
Not one of Templeton's better comics I think.
It's not a phonebooth it's a police boAGFldfsbgKJBFKJBFK,H
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i wonder how people feel about this now that story is becoming a little clearer.
Notably, Marvel declined to comment from a question CBR asked Marvel not helping out/giving the original creators of their comics(Kirby, primarily I would assume) the credit and compensation many think they deserve.
There are just a lot of outs to that answer, much like a politician's speech.
I've pretty much committed to following Wiebe (gredavin) and Rossmo on any creator owned projects they do. I buy digital only though, and I wait for the price drop, so I doubt I'm being factored into the decision on whether to continue producing a comic.
But I understand if you don't want to play unless you really want to get stuck in. It would be nice to have you along, but it's up to you. If you feel like giving it a go though, feel free to just post in the thread whenever, and if you want to start later one as long as the game is not too full that's fine, I am always cool with late arrivals.
OK, just looked it up. That's pretty interesting.
That is impressive detective work, but ultimately in service of a conclusion that should have been accepted as obvious from the start. Of course *some* of the comics pirates have a source within the companies themselves. It's always been the case for video games, DVDs, music and everything else that gets pirated, why should comics be any different?
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
The same. Guess what? He's not the only person who does this.
The first two points are the strongest, as there is sometimes a feeling with DC over the past 18 months that it feels like comics are being forced to assist Nelson or others to ascend higher in the Time Warner pyramid, and the comic store thing needs to seriously be looked at when you have a shrinking number of stores coupled with drag your feet online initiatives from companies. Point 5 seems to be all over the place in terms of the idea of artists and creators working for little but expecting a big reward down the line, I guess he's trying to make the point people in the current generation won't stay around if they can find more lucrative work, which is perfectly fine and understandable.
That's not exclusive to DC. It's encouraged at Marvel. Dan Slott basically thought it was almost like a rite of passage for creators to "give back" to the company and that giving companies good concepts is a privilege in itself. He said this at a convention, not in an interview.
The current or new generations moving into other media or occupations will only hasten the direct market's implosion.
Comics do better than pen and paper roleplaying games!
Some of them are a little off, like the KC Green one. But most of them are dead on. I particularly like his Dan Hipp, Anthony Clark, and Moebius impressions.
Tumblr Twitter
Not necessarily. Popular characters or teams have multiple titles plus mini-series (Justice League, Avengers, X-men, Batman, Spider-man etc). Some readers will buy cameos of said characters when they appear in other series, Wolverine & Batman do this a lot.
This is amazing. This guy is really versatile. Sam Keith, R. Crumb, Jamie Hewlett, Maurice Sendak, those are all so on the money.
The Chris Ware one is a little cluttered visually (Ware tends to have incredibly simplistic panels), but really captures the spirit.