What pieces of "missing" evidence are there besides EMP accounts/paperwork (proof of Zimmerman's wounds) and autopsy results (direction and location of bullet wound)? There's evidence that was destroyed (blood stains on Zimmerman, Martin, and at the scene) but is there anything else that's still being withheld?
Of course, I wouldn't come forward either. The Martin supporters sure seem to like taking potshots at the police, causing Zimmerman to go into hiding. I wouldn't doubt they would threaten physical violence or harm to your or your house if you stepped forwards and said anything other than "poor African-American boy".
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Of course, I wouldn't come forward either. The Martin supporters sure seem to like taking potshots at the police, causing Zimmerman to go into hiding. I wouldn't doubt they would threaten physical violence or harm to your or your house if you stepped forwards and said anything other than "poor African-American boy".
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
In fairness, there were reports that a cop car got shot at near the place where Martin was killed.
But also, TNC is a troll, or at least that's what I choose to believe because I don't want to be reminded that people who think that feudalism is a good idea still exist.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Of course, I wouldn't come forward either. The Martin supporters sure seem to like taking potshots at the police, causing Zimmerman to go into hiding. I wouldn't doubt they would threaten physical violence or harm to your or your house if you stepped forwards and said anything other than "poor African-American boy".
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
In fairness, there were reports that a cop car got shot at near the place where Martin was killed.
But also, TNC is a troll, or at least that's what I choose to believe because I don't want to be reminded that people who think that feudalism is a good idea still exist.
Of course, I wouldn't come forward either. The Martin supporters sure seem to like taking potshots at the police, causing Zimmerman to go into hiding. I wouldn't doubt they would threaten physical violence or harm to your or your house if you stepped forwards and said anything other than "poor African-American boy".
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
In fairness, there were reports that a cop car got shot at near the place where Martin was killed.
But also, TNC is a troll, or at least that's what I choose to believe because I don't want to be reminded that people who think that feudalism is a good idea still exist.
oh i knew that. i read about how some dumb dicks shot up a cop car in some article. but that's just what they are: just a few dumb dicks. they are the exception.
i just had a problem with TNC lumping in all "Martin supporters" with those few dudes who are clearly unstable and in support of nothing but their own destructive impulses
Of course, I wouldn't come forward either. The Martin supporters sure seem to like taking potshots at the police, causing Zimmerman to go into hiding. I wouldn't doubt they would threaten physical violence or harm to your or your house if you stepped forwards and said anything other than "poor African-American boy".
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
In fairness, there were reports that a cop car got shot at near the place where Martin was killed.
But also, TNC is a troll, or at least that's what I choose to believe because I don't want to be reminded that people who think that feudalism is a good idea still exist.
i just had a problem with TNC lumping in all "Martin supporters" with those few dudes who are clearly unstable and in support of nothing but their own destructive impulses
Don't have a problem with anything TNC says. Just ignore.
"I wonder what will be racial makeup of the jury."
Wait, why is that sad?
People on both sides should be very interested in the racial makeup of the jury. You can bet Martin's parents won't be thrilled if the jury ends up all white males, given the legacy of the "all-white jury" in the South. Nor would Zimmerman be thrilled if the jury ends up all black mothers, although there's much less of a troublesome legacy there.
Even outside the South. A huge deal was made in the Rodney King case about the jury's racial composition, and that jury wasn't even all-white, but just majority-white. A big deal was made in the OJ Simpson murder trial about the jury having 9 blacks and 2 whites, when the initial jury pool was 40% whites and 28% blacks.
Or did you just mean it's sad that we haven't reached a "post-racial" world yet?
What pieces of "missing" evidence are there besides EMP accounts/paperwork (proof of Zimmerman's wounds) and autopsy results (direction and location of bullet wound)? There's evidence that was destroyed (blood stains on Zimmerman, Martin, and at the scene) but is there anything else that's still being withheld?
From the public? Plenty: Zimmerman’s statement to the police, witness’s full statements, the police report.
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
If they are going for second degree they must have some evidence Zimmerman started the PHYSICAL fight. Which would need to be either unreleased evidence, eye witness testimony, or something Zimmerman said when he talked to the prosecution without his lawyers. Which might explain why they dropped him. Will be interested to see which it is.
What they could have to go after 2nd degree is a bullet entry wound in Martin's back, meaning that Zimmerman had shot Martin in the back. That would rise to the level of murder, but not 1st-degree.
Without a pre-existing relationship between Zimmerman and Martin, getting a 1st-degree conviction would be incredibly difficult. 1st-degree requires premeditation AND planning - Zimmerman would have had to been planning to kill Martin before the confrontation ever started.
2nd-degree covers murder in the heat of the moment. Like if you get into a bar fight and stab the other guy to death. Or say, if you start a fight with some teenager and said teenager beats you up on the sidewalk, then walks away while insulting you. And that pisses you off so much that you pull out your gun and shoot the teenager in the back.
I feel like with a bullet to the back, his arrest would have happened A LOT sooner.
Maybe they just got the medical report back this week?
This is all just speculation, of course. "Bullet in the back" just leapt to mind as the most obvious way to physically disprove a self-defense claim. Short of Zimmerman shooting Martin as Martin was in the middle of some kind of spinning back kick, it's pretty understood that even hitting someone in the back is not "reasonable" self-defense, let alone shooting them in the back.
Heck, even in boxing and MMA where the rules are literally "Defend yourself at all times", they don't allow hitting someone in the back.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
"I wonder what will be racial makeup of the jury."
Wait, why is that sad?
People on both sides should be very interested in the racial makeup of the jury. You can bet Martin's parents won't be thrilled if the jury ends up all white males, given the legacy of the "all-white jury" in the South. Nor would Zimmerman be thrilled if the jury ends up all black mothers, although there's much less of a troublesome legacy there.
Even outside the South. A huge deal was made in the Rodney King case about the jury's racial composition, and that jury wasn't even all-white, but just majority-white. A big deal was made in the OJ Simpson murder trial about the jury having 9 blacks and 2 whites, when the initial jury pool was 40% whites and 28% blacks.
Or did you just mean it's sad that we haven't reached a "post-racial" world yet?
It's sad that one of the first reactions was, "there better not be blacks on the jury!"
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
I don't think so...
I mean, I am p sure the Casey Anthony trial would have ended differently if that was possible.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
The Casey Anthony case had no political implications, and did not divide people by party. Aside from media hysteria, the cases are nothing alike.
Has this actually happened? Beyond fringe groups, has anyone rallied behind Zimmerman? Like, has any Republican leadership backed him? The only thing I’ve heard from them is bashing Obama for the “if I had a son he’d look like Trayvon” thing and even then they didn’t back Zimmerman, they just bashed Obama.
Even most 2nd amendment nuts don’t want to be lumped in with the guy who shot and killed an unarmed minor.
When people unite together, they become stronger than the sum of their parts.
Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
Jesus, is anywhere like that? That's horrible.
"Good job, fucking up your case, Mr. Prosecution, but we'll do your job for you. Love, The Jury"
A young black man of small stature being followed by an (armed) older white man twice his size through alleyways at night? I'm pretty sure the person being followed has a right to not only be suspicious, but also get physically confrontational if they feel they are in imminent danger.
I think these self defense laws are, at least publicly, actually supposed to protect the stalkee in these situations, not the stalker, and especially not when the situation takes a turn against them.
I'm not an attorney, nor am I familiar enough with case law to say you are definitively wrong here. I'll concede this.
I also don't have time or easy access to provide cites for you. However, if you Google just a bit there are any number of law firms that actually provide lengthy explanations on the subject, from various states, often with,citations from case law.
From reading through several of these, in relation to this case and others, I've gotten the impression that the first use of physical force does require some overt action or some credible threat of imminent physical harm. Physical contact (or the overt threat of it) is a pretty big deal. Basically it's a longer road to get to a justified shove or punch than to progress from that first physical contact through the spectrum of physical force.
You'd basically have to look at it from a "what if no shots had been fired" perspective. If trayvon were alive, and arguing self defense, he'd have the same presumption of innocence. But he'd (in the context of our hypothetical) be arguing self defense against a man who had made no overt threats, and basically committed no crime.
The Casey Anthony case had no political implications, and did not divide people by party. Aside from media hysteria, the cases are nothing alike.
Has this actually happened? Beyond fringe groups, has anyone rallied behind Zimmerman? Like, has any Republican leadership backed him? The only thing I’ve heard from them is bashing Obama for the “if I had a son he’d look like Trayvon” thing and even then they didn’t back Zimmerman, they just bashed Obama.
Even most 2nd amendment nuts don’t want to be lumped in with the guy who shot and killed an unarmed minor.
Some of the Ron Paulbots here in Alabama were trying to collect money for some defense fund, but I dunno how organised that was.
The Casey Anthony case had no political implications, and did not divide people by party. Aside from media hysteria, the cases are nothing alike.
I'm not seeing the connection between the two either, other than the media circus and that they're both in Florida.
The Anthony case didn't even have proof that a homicide occurred. The baby could have died of SIDS or choked on vomit in her sleep - they couldn't even figure out the cause of death period, let alone whether the cause of death was directly attributable to the defendant.
Here, even Zimmerman admits he was the cause of Martin's death, by gunshot.
If Zimmerman is overcharging, it's like eating 3 Big Macs is overeating. Anthony was overcharging like eating every Big Mac in the entire McDonald's is overeating.
"I wonder what will be racial makeup of the jury."
Wait, why is that sad?
People on both sides should be very interested in the racial makeup of the jury. You can bet Martin's parents won't be thrilled if the jury ends up all white males, given the legacy of the "all-white jury" in the South. Nor would Zimmerman be thrilled if the jury ends up all black mothers, although there's much less of a troublesome legacy there.
Even outside the South. A huge deal was made in the Rodney King case about the jury's racial composition, and that jury wasn't even all-white, but just majority-white. A big deal was made in the OJ Simpson murder trial about the jury having 9 blacks and 2 whites, when the initial jury pool was 40% whites and 28% blacks.
Or did you just mean it's sad that we haven't reached a "post-racial" world yet?
It's sad that one of the first reactions was, "there better not be blacks on the jury!"
Oh. Well, that's quite a different sentiment than "I wonder what the racial makeup of the jury will be."
Plenty of links on google, feel free to pick your poison News Outlet of Choice.
[tinfoil hat on the following should obviously be a joke]
As far as the crazy conspiracies go it is obvious this is all a ploy by Obama to stir up racial tensions in order to drive voters to the ballot boxs despite his lackluster performance over the last four years in solving all racial inequality issues that may have lead to racial motivated single issue voters staying home. In fact it would not surprise me if Eric Holder gave Zimmerman the gun himself, and it was engraved "go forth and purge the unclean in the alley's and by the mailbox's of your gated community".
Jury instructions for 2nd Degree Murder cases in Florida:
7.4 MURDER—SECOND DEGREE
§ 782.04(2), Fla.Stat.
To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three
elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1. (Victim) is dead.
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).
3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another
and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.
Definitions.
An ―act‖ includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a
single design or purpose.
An act is ―imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind‖ if it is an
act or series of acts that:
1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do
serious bodily injury to another, and
2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and
3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.
In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the
defendant had an intent to cause death.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
Plenty of links on google, feel free to pick your poison News Outlet of Choice.
[tinfoil hat on the following should obviously be a joke]
As far as the crazy conspiracies go it is obvious this is all a ploy by Obama to stir up racial tensions in order to drive voters to the ballot boxs despite his lackluster performance over the last four years in solving all racial inequality issues that may have lead to racial motivated single issue voters staying home. In fact it would not surprise me if Eric Holder gave Zimmerman the gun himself, and it was engraved "go forth and purge the unclean in the alley's and by the mailbox's of your gated community".
[you may remove your tin foil now]
The bounty was for Zimmerman's arrest and was promised by the New Black Panther Party. A fringe group even among fringe groups.
Since Zimmerman has been arrested, the bounty is moot.
Offering bounties for murder or criminal harm to Zimmerman is obviously illegal.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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mojojoeoA block off the park, living the dream.Registered Userregular
By going Murder II they have left a whole lot of rope for the jury to hang the DA.
@bubbat you are pretty correct... Murder II is in the neighbor hood of what they can proove ((given what we know)) where as Casey Anthony they prosicuted poorly and could not directly prove too much.
mojojoeo on
Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
I don't think so...
I mean, I am p sure the Casey Anthony trial would have ended differently if that was possible.
Yes, they can include lesser charges. The lesser included charges in the Anthony case were:
- Aggravated manslaughter
- Aggravated child abuse
- Giving false statements to law enforcement (x4 counts)
She was found guilty of the last one (er, last 4, I guess).
However, there were some interviews by jurors afterwards that implied the jury may have thought convicting on the lesser charge of Aggravated Manslaughter would have carried the same sentence as a 1st-degree Murder conviction. Florida is a death penalty state.
Merely pointing out that there was in fact a bounty, even if it was placed by the fringiest of fringes. I think it is safe to say this incident is bringing out the worst in people.
I am so fucking happy there are actually charges, he's in custody, and maybe we'll actually have this whole thing resolved. Unless the case is completely and utterly fucked up, I don't care which way this goes, just as long as justice (a trial), is held.
In fact it would not surprise me if Eric Holder gave Zimmerman the gun himself, and it was engraved "go forth and purge the unclean in the alley's and by the mailbox's of your gated community".
Merely pointing out that there was in fact a bounty, even if it was placed by the fringiest of fringes. I think it is safe to say this incident is bringing out the worst in people.
No. No, not really.
You need to read up on the New Black Panthers. They are a fringe, highly racist group, that was trying to capitalize on an incident for a bit of fame.
To say that this brings out the worst in people is equivalent to saying that the Westborough Baptist Church tends to be assholes on a bad week. There's no "bringing out the worst" when you're referencing a group of people who have very bad intentions to begin with.
I was referring to bringing out the worst in people in general. Such as yourself when you called for horrible things to happen to him and his life to be spent in fear whether he was guilty or not. This incident fueled by the media has not been a pretty sight.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If they are going for second degree they must have some evidence Zimmerman started the PHYSICAL fight. Which would need to be either unreleased evidence, eye witness testimony, or something Zimmerman said when he talked to the prosecution without his lawyers. Which might explain why they dropped him. Will be interested to see which it is.
What they could have to go after 2nd degree is a bullet entry wound in Martin's back, meaning that Zimmerman had shot Martin in the back. That would rise to the level of murder, but not 1st-degree.
Without a pre-existing relationship between Zimmerman and Martin, getting a 1st-degree conviction would be incredibly difficult. 1st-degree requires premeditation AND planning - Zimmerman would have had to been planning to kill Martin before the confrontation ever started.
2nd-degree covers murder in the heat of the moment. Like if you get into a bar fight and stab the other guy to death. Or say, if you start a fight with some teenager and said teenager beats you up on the sidewalk, then walks away while insulting you. And that pisses you off so much that you pull out your gun and shoot the teenager in the back.
I feel like with a bullet to the back, his arrest would have happened A LOT sooner.
Sorry, I am not a lawyer, so does first degree murder require a plan to kill someone specific or can it be allowed if your planning to kill someone in general?
It would still be hard/impossible to prove but I wonder if a prior relationship is necessary.
Also, can the EMT testify to what treatment he gave Zimmerman? That would probably clear some of this confusion up without needing blurry pixels.
Yeah, it's extremely difficult to prove since it's only relevant in places with the death penalty. If there's no death penalty, then murder is murder.
And you can form intent to kill in the moment before you shoot someone.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
In fact it would not surprise me if Eric Holder gave Zimmerman the gun himself, and it was engraved "go forth and purge the unclean in the alley's and by the mailbox's of your gated community".
oooh. It's that argument.
Holder: Are you a Mexican drug lord?
Zimmerman: No, I'm half-Peruvian.
Holder: Close enough. Take these 20 crates of machine guns. Say, we need a name for this plan. What's your favorite Vin Diesel movie?
Personally, I think the initial charge reeks of political appeasement. Anything less than a charge that actually stated Murder would have been seen as more conspiracy, racism, etc etc. Sharpton and Jackson would have been holding another rally calling for the Feds to investigate Corey.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
Jesus, is anywhere like that? That's horrible.
"Good job, fucking up your case, Mr. Prosecution, but we'll do your job for you. Love, The Jury"
I'll post more from home in a bit, but this is an ill informed wrong attitude about how lesser includeds work
Posts
THANK YOU.
I...I don't think that's what he meant to say.
"Surprised the doubts I had."
The fuck is that supposed to mean?
They may have over charged.
Or just a dumb racist fuck.
Either way, go fuck yourself buddy.
christ dude. how are "the Martin supporters" taking the potshots at the police and threatening Zimmerman? there are probably very few out there who'd willingly go to such extremes. i doubt that most of the people on Trayvon's side are in support of such brute, ugly tactics of terror.
and what does "Martin supporters" mean to you anyway? maybe it's just your way of saying "black people". judging from your recent arguments, i wouldn't be surprised if you had some level of prejudice against blacks in ya.
In fairness, there were reports that a cop car got shot at near the place where Martin was killed.
But also, TNC is a troll, or at least that's what I choose to believe because I don't want to be reminded that people who think that feudalism is a good idea still exist.
But fantasy is a more popular genre than ever.
oh i knew that. i read about how some dumb dicks shot up a cop car in some article. but that's just what they are: just a few dumb dicks. they are the exception.
i just had a problem with TNC lumping in all "Martin supporters" with those few dudes who are clearly unstable and in support of nothing but their own destructive impulses
Don't have a problem with anything TNC says. Just ignore.
Wait, why is that sad?
People on both sides should be very interested in the racial makeup of the jury. You can bet Martin's parents won't be thrilled if the jury ends up all white males, given the legacy of the "all-white jury" in the South. Nor would Zimmerman be thrilled if the jury ends up all black mothers, although there's much less of a troublesome legacy there.
Even outside the South. A huge deal was made in the Rodney King case about the jury's racial composition, and that jury wasn't even all-white, but just majority-white. A big deal was made in the OJ Simpson murder trial about the jury having 9 blacks and 2 whites, when the initial jury pool was 40% whites and 28% blacks.
Or did you just mean it's sad that we haven't reached a "post-racial" world yet?
From the public? Plenty: Zimmerman’s statement to the police, witness’s full statements, the police report.
It certainly is reminiscent of it.
Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding.
I think they overcharged and should have stuck with Manslaughter if they really wanted a conviction.
Now we are in for months and months of jury selection, and the talking heads on the networks will be running with this like the Casey Anthony trial.
Congrats George Zimmerman, even if you are found not guilty, your life is damn well over.
Maybe they just got the medical report back this week?
This is all just speculation, of course. "Bullet in the back" just leapt to mind as the most obvious way to physically disprove a self-defense claim. Short of Zimmerman shooting Martin as Martin was in the middle of some kind of spinning back kick, it's pretty understood that even hitting someone in the back is not "reasonable" self-defense, let alone shooting them in the back.
Heck, even in boxing and MMA where the rules are literally "Defend yourself at all times", they don't allow hitting someone in the back.
Is Florida one of those places where the jury can convict on a lesser charge if they think there's sufficient evidence for it?
It's sad that one of the first reactions was, "there better not be blacks on the jury!"
I don't think so...
I mean, I am p sure the Casey Anthony trial would have ended differently if that was possible.
Has this actually happened? Beyond fringe groups, has anyone rallied behind Zimmerman? Like, has any Republican leadership backed him? The only thing I’ve heard from them is bashing Obama for the “if I had a son he’d look like Trayvon” thing and even then they didn’t back Zimmerman, they just bashed Obama.
Even most 2nd amendment nuts don’t want to be lumped in with the guy who shot and killed an unarmed minor.
Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding.
Jesus, is anywhere like that? That's horrible.
"Good job, fucking up your case, Mr. Prosecution, but we'll do your job for you. Love, The Jury"
I'm not an attorney, nor am I familiar enough with case law to say you are definitively wrong here. I'll concede this.
I also don't have time or easy access to provide cites for you. However, if you Google just a bit there are any number of law firms that actually provide lengthy explanations on the subject, from various states, often with,citations from case law.
From reading through several of these, in relation to this case and others, I've gotten the impression that the first use of physical force does require some overt action or some credible threat of imminent physical harm. Physical contact (or the overt threat of it) is a pretty big deal. Basically it's a longer road to get to a justified shove or punch than to progress from that first physical contact through the spectrum of physical force.
You'd basically have to look at it from a "what if no shots had been fired" perspective. If trayvon were alive, and arguing self defense, he'd have the same presumption of innocence. But he'd (in the context of our hypothetical) be arguing self defense against a man who had made no overt threats, and basically committed no crime.
Some of the Ron Paulbots here in Alabama were trying to collect money for some defense fund, but I dunno how organised that was.
I'm not seeing the connection between the two either, other than the media circus and that they're both in Florida.
The Anthony case didn't even have proof that a homicide occurred. The baby could have died of SIDS or choked on vomit in her sleep - they couldn't even figure out the cause of death period, let alone whether the cause of death was directly attributable to the defendant.
Here, even Zimmerman admits he was the cause of Martin's death, by gunshot.
If Zimmerman is overcharging, it's like eating 3 Big Macs is overeating. Anthony was overcharging like eating every Big Mac in the entire McDonald's is overeating.
Pretty sure he has Limbaugh's support.
Oh. Well, that's quite a different sentiment than "I wonder what the racial makeup of the jury will be."
Plenty of links on google, feel free to pick your poison News Outlet of Choice.
[tinfoil hat on the following should obviously be a joke]
As far as the crazy conspiracies go it is obvious this is all a ploy by Obama to stir up racial tensions in order to drive voters to the ballot boxs despite his lackluster performance over the last four years in solving all racial inequality issues that may have lead to racial motivated single issue voters staying home. In fact it would not surprise me if Eric Holder gave Zimmerman the gun himself, and it was engraved "go forth and purge the unclean in the alley's and by the mailbox's of your gated community".
[you may remove your tin foil now]
The bounty was for Zimmerman's arrest and was promised by the New Black Panther Party. A fringe group even among fringe groups.
Since Zimmerman has been arrested, the bounty is moot.
Offering bounties for murder or criminal harm to Zimmerman is obviously illegal.
We are past this.
By going Murder II they have left a whole lot of rope for the jury to hang the DA.
@bubbat you are pretty correct... Murder II is in the neighbor hood of what they can proove ((given what we know)) where as Casey Anthony they prosicuted poorly and could not directly prove too much.
Yes, they can include lesser charges. The lesser included charges in the Anthony case were:
- Aggravated manslaughter
- Aggravated child abuse
- Giving false statements to law enforcement (x4 counts)
She was found guilty of the last one (er, last 4, I guess).
However, there were some interviews by jurors afterwards that implied the jury may have thought convicting on the lesser charge of Aggravated Manslaughter would have carried the same sentence as a 1st-degree Murder conviction. Florida is a death penalty state.
oooh. It's that argument.
No. No, not really.
You need to read up on the New Black Panthers. They are a fringe, highly racist group, that was trying to capitalize on an incident for a bit of fame.
To say that this brings out the worst in people is equivalent to saying that the Westborough Baptist Church tends to be assholes on a bad week. There's no "bringing out the worst" when you're referencing a group of people who have very bad intentions to begin with.
Yeah, it's extremely difficult to prove since it's only relevant in places with the death penalty. If there's no death penalty, then murder is murder.
And you can form intent to kill in the moment before you shoot someone.
Holder: Are you a Mexican drug lord?
Zimmerman: No, I'm half-Peruvian.
Holder: Close enough. Take these 20 crates of machine guns. Say, we need a name for this plan. What's your favorite Vin Diesel movie?
I'll post more from home in a bit, but this is an ill informed wrong attitude about how lesser includeds work