1. The person gets away. *Or*, depending on circumstance, rejection by the community (unable to get a job, spouse, ect) which leads to exile.
You know who this guy is? Whats to stop you from claiming some guy you don't like stole from you too? And why would he need a job? His job is stealing your shit.
But answer me this @Shurakai if you can: Whats your basis for owning that store in the first place?
Purchasing goods from one who is not the legitimate owner does not bestow legitimate ownership. As such in order to establish legitimate ownership, even through a secondary party, one must identify an origin for that ownership.
If we accept all humans are of equal moral standing, then the ownership of anything that is not unique to that individual must be equally owned in a state of nature by all members of a community.
Claiming exclusive ownership of anything except your physical being and your labor requires you to subsume the ownership rights of everyone else. In a stateless society where there is no coercion, how does one take ownership? All exclusive ownership lacking unanimous consent of all individuals, and at least arguably all future individuals, would be theft of their ownership or potential ownership.
So without a body politic that has absorbed some of the natural rights of its citizens that will create a system by which exclusive ownership is enacted, how do you propose you got that grocery store in the first place?
This is the greatest post in the history of Penny-Arcade Libertarianism/Anarchism threads. Possibly of the internet as a whole. I hope Shurakai that you read this and fully understand what PantsB is saying. Even if you don't provide and answer, please tell me you've read this and understood what PantsB is positing.
By taking advantage of the labors of those who have come before (internet, electricity, roads, water, breathable air, fertile soil) you are part of the contract, this is why "I never agreed to it!" isn't a compelling argument. By partaking in the fruits of those who were in the contract before you, you are now part of it. You can remove yourself from it by going off the grid.
We'll even pay your travel expenses, I'm sure, if you seriously want to do that.
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Anywho, all these questions and answers were just to lead you guys through the process of making it personal, to bring into question your own moral compass. I don't agree that by simply existing in a civilization, I am suddenly and explicitly burdened with the responsibility to support it. If you do, and you are willing to imprison and perhaps kill me if I do not, than I would start to reexamine the basis of your ethical arguments. That's really all there is to it, guys.
Tough. You derive the benefit of living in the country, you have to follow its laws. I doubt you will find many people are going to support your right to not support the infrastructure that you benefit from in innumerable ways based on ethical/moral gymnastics.
I am going to live in this society. I am not going to flee to the hills. That's just another form of imprisonment.. but that particular version is voluntary. I will continue to ask questions about the basic nature of this system, and you guys should too. Thank you for the excellent talk. I am not the sole arbiter of this viewpoint, so if you are curious, just look around, and try not to accuse people of being insane. It's rather.. distasteful.
Great. Ask away. Just remember, the answer to almost all of them is, "Would you prefer to live in the Gilded Age?"
1. The person gets away. *Or*, depending on circumstance, rejection by the community (unable to get a job, spouse, ect) which leads to exile.
You know who this guy is? Whats to stop you from claiming some guy you don't like stole from you too? And why would he need a job? His job is stealing your shit.
But answer me this @Shurakai if you can: Whats your basis for owning that store in the first place?
Purchasing goods from one who is not the legitimate owner does not bestow legitimate ownership. As such in order to establish legitimate ownership, even through a secondary party, one must identify an origin for that ownership.
If we accept all humans are of equal moral standing, then the ownership of anything that is not unique to that individual must be equally owned in a state of nature by all members of a community.
Claiming exclusive ownership of anything except your physical being and your labor requires you to subsume the ownership rights of everyone else. In a stateless society where there is no coercion, how does one take ownership? All exclusive ownership lacking unanimous consent of all individuals, and at least arguably all future individuals, would be theft of their ownership or potential ownership.
So without a body politic that has absorbed some of the natural rights of its citizens that will create a system by which exclusive ownership is enacted, how do you propose you got that grocery store in the first place?
This is the greatest post in the history of Penny-Arcade Libertarianism/Anarchism threads. Possibly of the internet as a whole. I hope Shurakai that you read this and fully understand what PantsB is saying. Even if you don't provide and answer, please tell me you've read this and understood what PantsB is positing.
I have a feeling he want us to do all the thinking and reflection
Now I only have a high school education, so I'm probably not going to be good at this.
I suppose RoA or themightypuck have read "The Giver" by Louis Lowry? Well if, not go to a library, if you aren't so morally opposed to one and see if they have it and read that book. Because if my foggy memory is right, that supposed utopian society in that book is actually libertarian.
"The Community" in the book has deemed this baby useless because it was not planned, if I remember right. This is a perfect functional baby there is nothing wrong with it. But "The Community" has deemed the baby useless for some reason. This doctor is supposed to ethuanize the kid. The main character finds this to be wrong and gets advice from an old man. The main character goes on and steals the baby and manages to make himself and the baby itself "Criminal". So in the end, they crash in a snow bank,
[Some one used this as an example and I find this a very good example because it highlights what is wrong with a libertarian society. So Kudos to whomever used it as an example.]
I find libertarian ideas to be, at best amusing, and, at worst horrifying.
The community needs a governing body to regulate (OH NO!) what's best for the city and the people. Getting rid of this governing body and turning it over to either the people or the businesses would be a very terrible idea because they are propagate what's good for them and eliminate what's bad for them at the expense of what the people need.
but that's not my biggest quibble with the idea of getting rid of government......
No, the biggest quible is how would a libertarian government handle the situation with physically/mentally disabled people? If you leave them to rot in the streets, guess what's going to happen, people are going to get very angry about this. So you just can't handwave it off like what other people would like to do. The main reason why I get so very fucking angry when I hear republican talk about how they want to reform SS is because they basically want to do away with it and medicaid. So they talk about in generalities so they don't anger the elderly and the disabled.
I have come to the realizations that libertarians really need a fucking reality check because so their pie in the sky ideas, are in reality, very terrible and detrimental to everyone else in the country.
Yes, I realize the irony of the disability thing with a RoA.
So stop listening to Ron Paul and actually read up on some of the issues at hand.
Road laws mean that you have to go to places you don't want to, by routes you don't want to. If you don't obey them, police will force you off the road and maybe hold a gun to your head. Isn't this exactly the same as what a serial killer does to his victims? Why should we put up with these sick laws?
I have a feeling he want us to do all the thinking and reflection
I have certainly learned a fair bit in this thread. Mostly about exactly what anarchists and libertarians would like me to think they believe, and why I don't subscribe to either philosophy in a pure form.
Shurakai, do you think that homeless people are rounded up and put in jail for not paying taxes? Because, well, they're not. If you're not using any government services, they won't come after you.
The government doesn't care about the money it's not losing! . (edit: blah, hooray for dyslexia.)
Anywho, all these questions and answers were just to lead you guys through the process of making it personal, to bring into question your own moral compass. I don't agree that by simply existing in a civilization, I am suddenly and explicitly burdened with the responsibility to support it. If you do, and you are willing to imprison and perhaps kill me if I do not, than I would start to reexamine the basis of your ethical arguments. That's really all there is to it, guys.
I am going to live in this society. I am not going to flee to the hills. That's just another form of imprisonment.. but that particular version is voluntary. I will continue to ask questions about the basic nature of this system, and you guys should too. Thank you for the excellent talk. I am not the sole arbiter of this viewpoint, so if you are curious, just look around, and try not to accuse people of being insane. It's rather.. distasteful.
No one will have perfect answers, I fear. But that's why you are here, isn't it! Perhaps we shall find some good answers, in time.
Ciao!
You're not forced to pay for it by existing in it. You're forced to pay by taking advantage of its services. If you don't want to do that, then don't. Boom, problem solved. However if you don't want to deal with the kind of life that leads to that's your own fault, not everyone else's. It's not up to civilization to give you a free ride.
I should also point out that the far right authoritarians are extremely active politically, even though their endgame system doesn't resemble ours in the slightest, but ever so slowly inches towards it.
The far left anarchists I have a particular distaste for, because by refusing to participate in the system they do nothing to make it better. They sit on the sidelines and call everyone sheep, when in reality they might as well not even have a voice. The most egregious sins of the system aren't going to fix themselves, most voters are okay with the drug war, most people who argue fervently against it don't even vote.
That's the real travesty, by refusing to partake in the system because it isn't perfect you effectively give power towards making it worse
It's totally possible to set out on your own, build your own home, catch your own food, never depend on a government and just generally have a fine time roughing it in style.
There are a few nice documentaries about it. Just, no Libertarian ever does it because they don't actually want self-sufficiency, they want to be told they're correct and to have more money than they have right now.
It's totally possible to set out on your own, build your own home, catch your own food, never depend on a government and just generally have a fine time roughing it in style.
There are a few nice documentaries about it. Just, no Libertarian ever does it because they don't actually want self-sufficiency, they want to be told they're correct and to have more money than they have right now.
Well, I am about to wander off and do other things, but I will mention my major, overarching problem with Libertarianism.
It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not. We still rely on natural systems--clean air, clean water, healthy food. You can draw property lines on a map, but water and air do not care about the discrete units our society collectively creates and divvies up. The argument is "I should be able to do whatever I want on my property, because it doesn't effect anyone", but if I dump my septic tank into a stream on my property, I have just made life miserable and unsanitary for everyone downstream of me (and, of course, the fish and wildlife). But a lot of people would do just that if there weren't laws against it, and consequences for breaking those laws.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited April 2012
This thread is a lot less fun without the idiots participating.
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
presumably the libertarian believes that the rest of us have the right to enter into whatever 'coercive' social agreements we choose. I choose to work a job and pay taxes and so on because I like the results better than being homeless (or even better than making <10k a year), but if that isn't a tradeoff you're willing to make, nobody's forcing you
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Prison? What prison? Who is forcing you to stay, Ray? What's stopping you from leaving?
So you would freely use coercion to not pay taxes if you were able to.
A criminal busts down your door at home and attempts to kidnap you. You have a gun. What do you do?
A police officer breaking into your home to arrest you for not paying taxes isn't a criminal. You would be the criminal in that situation.
Precisely!
I am a criminal for making the choice not to support the current government's policies by direct action -- that is, not paying for it with my labor and the resources earned thereof. I may be imprisoned or shot, depending on my level of resistance for this 'crime'.
Is that okay?
It is until you can create another community elsewhere. Why do you think I bought up buying an island? Go crazy there, no-one will stop you. Just make sure you don't break any international laws in the process.
So murder and kidnapping are a-ok with you, as long as the perpetrators are wearing a blue uniform? Awesome.
As long as they're sanctioned to enforce the law by the public, yes. Don't be a goose. What you're proposing, using public resources and not paying for them, is stealing. it has been generally agreed upon in societies for thousands of years that stealing is bad. Thus, you must be punished.
So every unemployed person in the country is a thief? Every prisoner eating his rations is a thief?
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
But the difference is you CAN bow out of paying taxes. You just like the services that taxes pay for so much that you don't want to leave.
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
Then opt out. You have the option. Living off the grid is a thing, though the survivalist community isn't exactly sane.
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
Life isn't always that simple. If you think communities are simple entities you're mistaken.
Prison? What prison? Who is forcing you to stay, Ray? What's stopping you from leaving?
Laws. I can't leave the country without a passport, and I can't afford a passport or even get one without a social security card or an ID and birth certificate (which I'm lucky enough to have). Most countries also require at least a bachelors to gain citizenship.
Also, that argument is the 'argumentum ad somalium' fallacy. Like it or leave it is a false dilemma.
So every unemployed person in the country is a thief? Every prisoner eating his rations is a thief?
Unemployed persons are invested in by the country. Prisoners are either invested in or given mercy, depending on whether they can ever leave to have productive futures.
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
But the difference is you CAN bow out of paying taxes. You just like the services that taxes pay for so much that you don't want to leave.
No you cant. People who stop paying taxes are put into prison.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
You absolutely can leave the country without a passport. You just can't enter another country without one.
Well, most of 'em anyway.
So no, laws are not forcing you to stay. Laws are preventing you from trespassing into a nation you have no right to be in. Find somewhere else, then.
you don't have to leave! As other people in the thread have pointed out, the necessity of taxpaying (for example) is entirely mandated by agreements you voluntarily enter into (generally speaking, by signing a contract for employment.) If you don't do that you'll never have to pay taxes, and practically speaking you can even make a fair bit of money before the government will bother you about it.
ed: and even if you do opt out of taxpaying, the rest of us taxpaying citizens will in our beneficence provide you (in many jurisdictions anyway) with baseline food, shelter and medical care.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Shurakai, guess what! You accepted the government taxes when you accepted cash from you first job, when you attended a government funded school, eat government inspected food, drink government provided clean water and accepted government provided protection in the form of police and military.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
But the difference is you CAN bow out of paying taxes. You just like the services that taxes pay for so much that you don't want to leave.
No you cant. People who stop paying taxes are put into prison.
This is not true. I see plenty of people who don't pay taxes everyday. They're called homeless people.
So you would freely use coercion to not pay taxes if you were able to.
A criminal busts down your door at home and attempts to kidnap you. You have a gun. What do you do?
A police officer breaking into your home to arrest you for not paying taxes isn't a criminal. You would be the criminal in that situation.
Precisely!
I am a criminal for making the choice not to support the current government's policies by direct action -- that is, not paying for it with my labor and the resources earned thereof. I may be imprisoned or shot, depending on my level of resistance for this 'crime'.
Is that okay?
It is until you can create another community elsewhere. Why do you think I bought up buying an island? Go crazy there, no-one will stop you. Just make sure you don't break any international laws in the process.
So murder and kidnapping are a-ok with you, as long as the perpetrators are wearing a blue uniform? Awesome.
As long as they're sanctioned to enforce the law by the public, yes. Don't be a goose. What you're proposing, using public resources and not paying for them, is stealing. it has been generally agreed upon in societies for thousands of years that stealing is bad. Thus, you must be punished.
So every unemployed person in the country is a thief? Every prisoner eating his rations is a thief?
Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. They used to be considered degenerates and left to die in the streets, sure, but nowadays we have the social safety net and whatnot to protect them. That's the point of unemployment insurance. Other people are paying taxes to cover for you while you look for work, because having a lot of unemployed people starving to death on the streets is considered a worse harm.
Prisoners often have to pay a fee (usually by working at some job while imprisoned) to at least partially cover the cost of their imprisonment. But, again, the majority of the cost is covered by taxpayers because allowing some prisoners to mooch is considered less bad than letting them die or enslaving them.
Prison? What prison? Who is forcing you to stay, Ray? What's stopping you from leaving?
Laws. I can't leave the country without a passport, and I can't afford a passport or even get one without a social security card or an ID and birth certificate (which I'm lucky enough to have). Most countries also require at least a bachelors to gain citizenship.
Also, that argument is the 'argumentum ad somalium' fallacy. Like it or leave it is a false dilemma.
Well, you can't have it both ways. You either pay for services rendered by the government, or you go somewhere you don't use them.
But, you seem to really like those services, so...
No you cant. People who stop paying taxes are put into prison.
Only if they haven't finished paying their dues from services rendered.
If you pay up your taxes for the year, and your tax debt is totally cleared, and you stop using the services of the nation, you won't be taxed. You also won't have any income.
He who uses it, owns it. But ownership does require some sort of community recognition to be effective, and can't really be arbitrated under anything approaching justice without a government of some sort.
I mean, I own all sorts of things without the government getting involved. But who would resolve a dispute if one were to arise?
Prison? What prison? Who is forcing you to stay, Ray? What's stopping you from leaving?
Laws. I can't leave the country without a passport, and I can't afford a passport or even get one without a social security card or an ID and birth certificate (which I'm lucky enough to have). Most countries also require at least a bachelors to gain citizenship.
Also, that argument is the 'argumentum ad somalium' fallacy. Like it or leave it is a false dilemma.
Then get a social security card, ID, save up for the passport then leave. Not sure where you'd go, though.
Posts
Didn't you say that violent people would be removed from your utopian community if they didn't shape up? How is that any different?
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
This is the greatest post in the history of Penny-Arcade Libertarianism/Anarchism threads. Possibly of the internet as a whole. I hope Shurakai that you read this and fully understand what PantsB is saying. Even if you don't provide and answer, please tell me you've read this and understood what PantsB is positing.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
We'll even pay your travel expenses, I'm sure, if you seriously want to do that.
If you don't like the government taxes, stop using government provided services first. Then you can complain.
Tough. You derive the benefit of living in the country, you have to follow its laws. I doubt you will find many people are going to support your right to not support the infrastructure that you benefit from in innumerable ways based on ethical/moral gymnastics.
Great. Ask away. Just remember, the answer to almost all of them is, "Would you prefer to live in the Gilded Age?"
Twitch Stream
I have a feeling he want us to do all the thinking and reflection
I suppose RoA or themightypuck have read "The Giver" by Louis Lowry? Well if, not go to a library, if you aren't so morally opposed to one and see if they have it and read that book. Because if my foggy memory is right, that supposed utopian society in that book is actually libertarian.
[Some one used this as an example and I find this a very good example because it highlights what is wrong with a libertarian society. So Kudos to whomever used it as an example.]
I find libertarian ideas to be, at best amusing, and, at worst horrifying.
The community needs a governing body to regulate (OH NO!) what's best for the city and the people. Getting rid of this governing body and turning it over to either the people or the businesses would be a very terrible idea because they are propagate what's good for them and eliminate what's bad for them at the expense of what the people need.
but that's not my biggest quibble with the idea of getting rid of government......
No, the biggest quible is how would a libertarian government handle the situation with physically/mentally disabled people? If you leave them to rot in the streets, guess what's going to happen, people are going to get very angry about this. So you just can't handwave it off like what other people would like to do. The main reason why I get so very fucking angry when I hear republican talk about how they want to reform SS is because they basically want to do away with it and medicaid. So they talk about in generalities so they don't anger the elderly and the disabled.
I have come to the realizations that libertarians really need a fucking reality check because so their pie in the sky ideas, are in reality, very terrible and detrimental to everyone else in the country.
Yes, I realize the irony of the disability thing with a RoA.
So stop listening to Ron Paul and actually read up on some of the issues at hand.
Reality is a bitch, ain't it.
Taxes are theft like road laws are kidnapping.
Road laws mean that you have to go to places you don't want to, by routes you don't want to. If you don't obey them, police will force you off the road and maybe hold a gun to your head. Isn't this exactly the same as what a serial killer does to his victims? Why should we put up with these sick laws?
I have certainly learned a fair bit in this thread. Mostly about exactly what anarchists and libertarians would like me to think they believe, and why I don't subscribe to either philosophy in a pure form.
You're not forced to pay for it by existing in it. You're forced to pay by taking advantage of its services. If you don't want to do that, then don't. Boom, problem solved. However if you don't want to deal with the kind of life that leads to that's your own fault, not everyone else's. It's not up to civilization to give you a free ride.
The far left anarchists I have a particular distaste for, because by refusing to participate in the system they do nothing to make it better. They sit on the sidelines and call everyone sheep, when in reality they might as well not even have a voice. The most egregious sins of the system aren't going to fix themselves, most voters are okay with the drug war, most people who argue fervently against it don't even vote.
That's the real travesty, by refusing to partake in the system because it isn't perfect you effectively give power towards making it worse
You can certainly sneak into a country without a strong government if you have the balls to do so.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/12/13/somalia-gets-a-tourist-mogadishu-officials-are-baffled/
It's totally possible to set out on your own, build your own home, catch your own food, never depend on a government and just generally have a fine time roughing it in style.
There are a few nice documentaries about it. Just, no Libertarian ever does it because they don't actually want self-sufficiency, they want to be told they're correct and to have more money than they have right now.
Richard Proenneke was one cool dude
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not. We still rely on natural systems--clean air, clean water, healthy food. You can draw property lines on a map, but water and air do not care about the discrete units our society collectively creates and divvies up. The argument is "I should be able to do whatever I want on my property, because it doesn't effect anyone", but if I dump my septic tank into a stream on my property, I have just made life miserable and unsanitary for everyone downstream of me (and, of course, the fish and wildlife). But a lot of people would do just that if there weren't laws against it, and consequences for breaking those laws.
'If you don't like the prison, stop using their services first. Then you can complain.'
>It acts as if the world is simple when in fact the world is not.
Complicated systems require simple rules. The US tax code is a good example of this.
Simple rules cannot cover complex matters.
presumably the libertarian believes that the rest of us have the right to enter into whatever 'coercive' social agreements we choose. I choose to work a job and pay taxes and so on because I like the results better than being homeless (or even better than making <10k a year), but if that isn't a tradeoff you're willing to make, nobody's forcing you
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
So every unemployed person in the country is a thief? Every prisoner eating his rations is a thief?
But the difference is you CAN bow out of paying taxes. You just like the services that taxes pay for so much that you don't want to leave.
Twitch Stream
Then opt out. You have the option. Living off the grid is a thing, though the survivalist community isn't exactly sane.
Life isn't always that simple. If you think communities are simple entities you're mistaken.
Laws. I can't leave the country without a passport, and I can't afford a passport or even get one without a social security card or an ID and birth certificate (which I'm lucky enough to have). Most countries also require at least a bachelors to gain citizenship.
Also, that argument is the 'argumentum ad somalium' fallacy. Like it or leave it is a false dilemma.
Unemployed persons are invested in by the country. Prisoners are either invested in or given mercy, depending on whether they can ever leave to have productive futures.
No you cant. People who stop paying taxes are put into prison.
Well, most of 'em anyway.
So no, laws are not forcing you to stay. Laws are preventing you from trespassing into a nation you have no right to be in. Find somewhere else, then.
Metaphorical prison. Ray considers our society a "prison".
ed: and even if you do opt out of taxpaying, the rest of us taxpaying citizens will in our beneficence provide you (in many jurisdictions anyway) with baseline food, shelter and medical care.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You can't even cross the border into Mexico or Canada without a passport anymore, and you certainly can't come back in without one.
This is not true. I see plenty of people who don't pay taxes everyday. They're called homeless people.
Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. They used to be considered degenerates and left to die in the streets, sure, but nowadays we have the social safety net and whatnot to protect them. That's the point of unemployment insurance. Other people are paying taxes to cover for you while you look for work, because having a lot of unemployed people starving to death on the streets is considered a worse harm.
Prisoners often have to pay a fee (usually by working at some job while imprisoned) to at least partially cover the cost of their imprisonment. But, again, the majority of the cost is covered by taxpayers because allowing some prisoners to mooch is considered less bad than letting them die or enslaving them.
Well, you can't have it both ways. You either pay for services rendered by the government, or you go somewhere you don't use them.
But, you seem to really like those services, so...
Twitch Stream
Nope, because the system by which the burden of government is apportioned is not a simple fee you pay.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
It could be simplified somewhat without throwing out the entire thing.
Only if they haven't finished paying their dues from services rendered.
If you pay up your taxes for the year, and your tax debt is totally cleared, and you stop using the services of the nation, you won't be taxed. You also won't have any income.
I mean, I own all sorts of things without the government getting involved. But who would resolve a dispute if one were to arise?
Then get a social security card, ID, save up for the passport then leave. Not sure where you'd go, though.
Did you read his post? He covered that. It was in the first line. "You just can't enter another country without one."
So are you just agreeing or....