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[Trayvon Martin]'s Violent Attack on George Zimmerman

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Posts

  • Shado redShado red Registered User
    chrisnl wrote: »
    In criminal proceedings, the defense is entitled to access to the information and evidence that the prosecution has gathered right? My Cousin Vinny didn't lie to me, did it?

    Until someone is charged with a crime you don't have a defendant. Zimmerman isn't entitled to any evidence while he is being investigated.

  • mojojoeomojojoeo Ghost dog at my side.Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Out on bond (150,000).... Normally this charge does not get bond.

    I have a gut feeling the nation is about to get Florida'd.

    Choice pieces from court-
    "The defense picked at the state for using the words 'profiling' and 'confrontation.'
    Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight.
    There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn't walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed."
    But- "However, he said that Zimmerman's statements, as well as his description of the injuries he suffered, are contradicted by other evidence in the case"

    http://southflorida.sun-sentinel.com/news/os-george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-20120420,0,4802623.story

    Murder II may be a stretch.... What a ride we are in for.

    mojojoeo on
    "Why yes that is my foot in my mouth. Thank you for noticing."
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
  • Shado redShado red Registered User
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    Murder II may be a stretch....

    Based on what we know so far I think "imperfect self defense" seems to be a more accurate charge. Even this, I think, would be difficult to prove.

    I did find this interesting, from the article:

    However, he said that Zimmerman's statements, as well as his description of the injuries he suffered, are contradicted by other evidence in the case. That is from the State Attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath.

    The investigator is saying that the injuries Zimmerman says he suffered is contradicted by other evidence. Since his injuries seem to be consistent with the police report, and the picture that has been released I wonder what this is about?

  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    ABC News has released a photograph of George Zimmerman from the scene of the incident that corroborates his story that he was assaulted.
    Spoiler:

    Also kind of convenient that he had a camera and was around just in time!

    I haven't posted in this thread because I have nothing to add

    but come on, man.

    A cell phone.

    Not sure how that slipped my mind. Having known a couple of ACTUAL photographers, it probably just became a natural thing that "Photographer = Real camera".
    The rest of my post stands. Especially how the guy just now came forward?

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • gjaustingjaustin Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »

    To me, the fact that they're charging him with second degree murder says that this is motivated by politics, rather than evidence.

    In a weird way, this makes me suspect that they don't have the evidence to actually convict him of anything, since if they did they would have charged him with manslaughter without any of the uproar.

    Does that makes sense?

    Your belief is not required
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    ABC News has released a photograph of George Zimmerman from the scene of the incident that corroborates his story that he was assaulted.
    Spoiler:

    Also kind of convenient that he had a camera and was around just in time!

    I haven't posted in this thread because I have nothing to add

    but come on, man.

    A cell phone.

    Not sure how that slipped my mind. Having known a couple of ACTUAL photographers, it probably just became a natural thing that "Photographer = Real camera".
    The rest of my post stands. Especially how the guy just now came forward?

    Probably shopping around for the highest bidder on that picture.

    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • Shado redShado red Registered User
    ABC News has released a photograph of George Zimmerman from the scene of the incident that corroborates his story that he was assaulted.
    Spoiler:

    Also kind of convenient that he had a camera and was around just in time!

    I haven't posted in this thread because I have nothing to add

    but come on, man.

    A cell phone.

    Not sure how that slipped my mind. Having known a couple of ACTUAL photographers, it probably just became a natural thing that "Photographer = Real camera".
    The rest of my post stands. Especially how the guy just now came forward?

    ABC News exclusively obtaining a picture suggests they paid for it. Maybe he was holding onto it until he got a good price for it. Maybe the photographer was sympathetic to Martin, and did not want to release a photo that makes him look bad.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    ABC News has released a photograph of George Zimmerman from the scene of the incident that corroborates his story that he was assaulted.
    Spoiler:

    Also kind of convenient that he had a camera and was around just in time!

    I haven't posted in this thread because I have nothing to add

    but come on, man.

    A cell phone.

    Not sure how that slipped my mind. Having known a couple of ACTUAL photographers, it probably just became a natural thing that "Photographer = Real camera".
    The rest of my post stands. Especially how the guy just now came forward?

    "Oh, that George Zimmerman .... yeah, I have pictures of him. I thought we were talking about George 'F' Zimmerman. You know, from Minnesota. My bad."

  • mojojoeomojojoeo Ghost dog at my side.Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    gjaustin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    To me, the fact that they're charging him with second degree murder says that this is motivated by politics, rather than evidence.

    In a weird way, this makes me suspect that they don't have the evidence to actually convict him of anything, since if they did they would have charged him with manslaughter without any of the uproar.

    Does that makes sense?

    YES. this is exactly how I feel.
    That stuck with me like... Florida is about to screw this up royal.

    Its only going to compound the tragedy.

    mojojoeo on
    "Why yes that is my foot in my mouth. Thank you for noticing."
  • dbrock270dbrock270 Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    In criminal proceedings, the defense is entitled to access to the information and evidence that the prosecution has gathered right? My Cousin Vinny didn't lie to me, did it?

    They are during a certain part of the procedings... we are not there yet.

    When are we there?

    Alan Dershowtiz seems to think that the defense/public was entitled to the picture of Zimmerman's bleeding head, or at least knowledge of it, at the time of the arrest - if the prosecution had it by then.
    The photo released by ABC News was not mentioned in the prosecution’s affidavit upon the arrest of Zimmerman for murder, leading Dershowitz to claim that if authorities had knowledge of the photograph’s existence before the arrest, they acted in a “immoral” and “stupid” manner.

    “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie,”
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/04/20/dershowitz-prosecutor-in-trayvon-martin-case-not-playing-by-the-rules/

  • mojojoeomojojoeo Ghost dog at my side.Registered User regular
    BubbaT wrote: »
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    In criminal proceedings, the defense is entitled to access to the information and evidence that the prosecution has gathered right? My Cousin Vinny didn't lie to me, did it?

    They are during a certain part of the procedings... we are not there yet.

    When are we there?

    Alan Dershowtiz seems to think that the defense/public was entitled to the picture of Zimmerman's bleeding head, or at least knowledge of it, at the time of the arrest - if the prosecution had it by then.
    The photo released by ABC News was not mentioned in the prosecution’s affidavit upon the arrest of Zimmerman for murder, leading Dershowitz to claim that if authorities had knowledge of the photograph’s existence before the arrest, they acted in a “immoral” and “stupid” manner.

    “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie,”
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/04/20/dershowitz-prosecutor-in-trayvon-martin-case-not-playing-by-the-rules/

    yikes. thats not cool.

    "Why yes that is my foot in my mouth. Thank you for noticing."
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Thanatos wrote: »

    It would be really helpful if NBC included what the poll question was, in their reporting on the results of the poll.

    Because this
    As soon as George Zimmerman was formally charged last week in the shooting death of Florida teenager Trayvon Zimmerman, public opinion began shifting online, and for much of this week, a slight majority of those expressing an opinion indicated they believed he probably wasn't guilty of violating Florida law, according to msnbc.com's computer-assisted analysis of 2.6 million Internet postings.
    isn't all that helpful.

    I mean, Florida has lots of laws. Which crime was this poll about? Murder-2? Manslaughter? Assault? Committing a hate crime? Stalking? Discharge of firearm within city limits?


    edit: apparently it's not a poll. It's some kind of program that quantitizes facebook posts, tweets, and posts on online message boards. I wonder if D&D is one of the boards they use...

    BubbaT on
  • Jademonkey79Jademonkey79 Registered User regular
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    gjaustin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    To me, the fact that they're charging him with second degree murder says that this is motivated by politics, rather than evidence.

    In a weird way, this makes me suspect that they don't have the evidence to actually convict him of anything, since if they did they would have charged him with manslaughter without any of the uproar.

    Does that makes sense?

    YES. this is exactly how I feel.
    That stuck with me like... Florida is about to screw this up royal.

    Its only going to compound the tragedy.

    To put this in perspective, they charged Casey Anthony with the harshest charge they could find and really didn't have a huge amount of physical evidence to back it up. They could have easily gotten her on negligent homicide or any other smaller charge but they went for Murder 1 because of public pressure. As we all know, they lost because of that. Well, that and the fact that the jury thought that CSI and Law & Order is how the world actually works. But still, we don't have the best record of doing things the right way.

    "We’re surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    It is typical for the prosecutor to go for a greater charge than they can likely achieve. It makes plea bargaining easier, and I'm pretty sure that FL works like a lot of places - when the jury goes into deliberation, if they agree "not guilty" on murder II, then that instantaneously results in a charge of manslaughter that they must then deliberate on, based on the same trial procedings.

    When I was on a jury, some of the charges before us worked that way. The judge explained that for some of the charges, if we found not guilty, before even turning in our verdict we must also then deliberate and agree guilty/not-guilty regarding a specific lesser charge for the same offense.

    There are of course a ton of practical reasons for this, but IMO one of the big problems with it is that it allows for the appearance of a compromise option. If there is any significant disagreement about the greater charge, human nature tends towards an offer of "ok how about not guilty on the greater, guilty on the lesser?" despite the fact that perhaps everyone on the room actually feels like it is either guilty on the greater or not guilty on all, and they ought to be deliberating instead of compromising.

    Yar on
  • Shado redShado red Registered User
    BubbaT wrote: »
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    In criminal proceedings, the defense is entitled to access to the information and evidence that the prosecution has gathered right? My Cousin Vinny didn't lie to me, did it?

    They are during a certain part of the procedings... we are not there yet.

    When are we there?

    Alan Dershowtiz seems to think that the defense/public was entitled to the picture of Zimmerman's bleeding head, or at least knowledge of it, at the time of the arrest - if the prosecution had it by then.
    The photo released by ABC News was not mentioned in the prosecution’s affidavit upon the arrest of Zimmerman for murder, leading Dershowitz to claim that if authorities had knowledge of the photograph’s existence before the arrest, they acted in a “immoral” and “stupid” manner.

    “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie,”
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/04/20/dershowitz-prosecutor-in-trayvon-martin-case-not-playing-by-the-rules/

    Alan Dershowtiz isn't saying that they should have released the picture, only that the arrest affidavit does not mention it, and that it should. I read the affidavit, and it does not mention anything about Zimmerman's injuries. Only that, "Zimmerman confronted Martin, and a struggle ensued."

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Is it just me, or do those injuries look a lot different than the "enhanced video" ones?

    Yar on
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Well duh. The pictures in the "enhanced videos" were from after paramedics treated the wounds. This is before.

  • Jademonkey79Jademonkey79 Registered User regular
    So after re-reading the ABC news article it only says this "Investigators have seen the photo". This is a bit open ended. Did they see the photo because ABC news just leaked it or did they have prior knowledge of it and include it in their case? I know I'm just stirring the speculation pot but there's just something that seems off here. So much bad info was purposely leaked by the police and yet this one thing, the thing that would back up their assertion that it was self defense, was missed?

    "We’re surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    gjaustin wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    To me, the fact that they're charging him with second degree murder says that this is motivated by politics, rather than evidence.

    In a weird way, this makes me suspect that they don't have the evidence to actually convict him of anything, since if they did they would have charged him with manslaughter without any of the uproar.

    Does that makes sense?

    YES. this is exactly how I feel.
    That stuck with me like... Florida is about to screw this up royal.

    Its only going to compound the tragedy.

    To put this in perspective, they charged Casey Anthony with the harshest charge they could find and really didn't have a huge amount of physical evidence to back it up. They could have easily gotten her on negligent homicide or any other smaller charge but they went for Murder 1 because of public pressure. As we all know, they lost because of that. Well, that and the fact that the jury thought that CSI and Law & Order is how the world actually works. But still, we don't have the best record of doing things the right way.

    I dunno if they could have easily gotten Anthony on negligent homicide. The coroner couldn't even determine a cause of death. For all the state could prove in court, it's just as likely that the baby died of SIDS in the middle of the night.

    Shado red wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    In criminal proceedings, the defense is entitled to access to the information and evidence that the prosecution has gathered right? My Cousin Vinny didn't lie to me, did it?

    They are during a certain part of the procedings... we are not there yet.

    When are we there?

    Alan Dershowtiz seems to think that the defense/public was entitled to the picture of Zimmerman's bleeding head, or at least knowledge of it, at the time of the arrest - if the prosecution had it by then.
    The photo released by ABC News was not mentioned in the prosecution’s affidavit upon the arrest of Zimmerman for murder, leading Dershowitz to claim that if authorities had knowledge of the photograph’s existence before the arrest, they acted in a “immoral” and “stupid” manner.

    “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie,”
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/04/20/dershowitz-prosecutor-in-trayvon-martin-case-not-playing-by-the-rules/

    Alan Dershowtiz isn't saying that they should have released the picture, only that the arrest affidavit does not mention it, and that it should. I read the affidavit, and it does not mention anything about Zimmerman's injuries. Only that, "Zimmerman confronted Martin, and a struggle ensued."

    Yes, that's what I meant by "knowledge of it". Dershowitz is saying that if the prosecution had the bloody head picture and failed to disclose it in the affadavit, that doing so was immoral/stupid at best, and possibly illegal.

  • gjaustingjaustin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Yar wrote: »
    It is typical for the prosecutor to go for a greater charge than they can likely achieve. It makes plea bargaining easier, and I'm pretty sure that FL works like a lot of places - when the jury goes into deliberation, if they agree "not guilty" on murder II, then that instantaneously results in a charge of manslaughter that they must then deliberate on, based on the same trial procedings.

    When I was on a jury, some of the charges before us worked that way. The judge explained that for some of the charges, if we found not guilty, before even turning in our verdict we must also then deliberate and agree guilty/not-guilty regarding a specific lesser charge for the same offense.

    There are of course a ton of practical reasons for this, but IMO one of the big problems with it is that it allows for the appearance of a compromise option. If there is any significant disagreement about the greater charge, human nature tends towards an offer of "ok how about not guilty on the greater, guilty on the lesser?" despite the fact that perhaps everyone on the room actually feels like it is either guilty on the greater or not guilty on all, and they ought to be deliberating instead of compromising.

    Then they might as well charge him with Murder 1, some hate crimes, and jaywalking while they're at it.

    I happen to think that he's very likely guilty of manslaughter. But I've seen absolutely zero evidence that even remotely suggests that murder is an appropriate charge. This is what is making me seriously reconsider that he's even guilty of anything at all.

    gjaustin on
    Your belief is not required
  • Jademonkey79Jademonkey79 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I think he's guilty of being the perfect example of a bad CWP holder. He represents everything that's wrong with the gun culture here in Florida. There are so many wanna-be Frank Castles, it's not even funny. I used to think it was a stereotype until I got my permit and took classes with some of these guys. I guess that's why it's not hard for me to believe that he went charging after this kid.

    Like others have said, the actual court case will tell us more than what we're all guessing. And we are all guessing.

    Jademonkey79 on
    "We’re surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."
  • GaardeanGaardean Registered User regular
    Shado red wrote: »
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    Murder II may be a stretch....

    Based on what we know so far I think "imperfect self defense" seems to be a more accurate charge. Even this, I think, would be difficult to prove.

    I did find this interesting, from the article:

    However, he said that Zimmerman's statements, as well as his description of the injuries he suffered, are contradicted by other evidence in the case. That is from the State Attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath.

    The investigator is saying that the injuries Zimmerman says he suffered is contradicted by other evidence. Since his injuries seem to be consistent with the police report, and the picture that has been released I wonder what this is about?

    Wasn't his claim a broken nose and a gash that required many stitches? If his medical reports show a bruised nose and mostly superficial scratches (That's a decent amount of blood on the picture, but it doesn't necessarily speak to depth/severity of wounds) it would reflect very poorly on Zimmerman.

    steam_sig.png
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Yeah, well, I found a crazy hobo on the street who says that Zimmerman is really a shock trooper for an alien invasion from outer space.

    I posit that said hobo has more credibility than Alan Dershowitz.

  • TachTach Registered User regular
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    BNsig.jpg
  • LolkenLolken Registered User, __BANNED USERS, Dumbasses
    Tach wrote: »
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    Well, you have to understand that non-terrible people also aren't black.

    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton.

    "Money tends to corrupt, and lots of money corrupts lotsely" - Me.
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Yeah, well, I found a crazy hobo on the street who says that Zimmerman is really a shock trooper for an alien invasion from outer space.

    I posit that said hobo has more credibility than Alan Dershowitz.

    What does your hobo say about the prosecution having (or not having) an ethical and/or legal responsibility to mention key evidence in their affidavit?

  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    Looks like we may be getting somewhere in terms of identifying the "Help!" voice on the 911 tape.
    Then there are the dramatic cries for help heard on the 911 call during the struggle. Martin’s mother said it was her son’s voice, and the special prosecutor in the case agrees. But Zimmerman’s supporters argue that the pleas came from him.

    The source familiar with the case said that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators had Zimmerman lie on his back in another location in an effort to recreate the position he said he had been in during the shooting. Then, the source said, investigators recorded Zimmerman as he shouted what had been heard on the 911 calls: cries such as, “Help me!”
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

    This is how voice ID work is actually supposed to be done, by comparing like samples. Not by comparing a scream against a calm voice, with each sample containing different words/phrases.

  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    Tach wrote: »
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    I agree, cops are terrible people. Always strapping guns to their hips and going out on patrol looking for trouble.

    Soldiers too. Patrolling streets in Afghanistan with their M-16s and all...

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Tach wrote: »
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    I agree, cops are terrible people. Always strapping guns to their hips and going out on patrol looking for trouble.

    Soldiers too. Patrolling streets in Afghanistan with their M-16s and all...

    Wow.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Tach wrote: »
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    I agree, cops are terrible people. Always strapping guns to their hips and going out on patrol looking for trouble.

    Soldiers too. Patrolling streets in Afghanistan with their M-16s and all...

    Wow.

    You know that cops and soldiers have killed unarmed people too, right?

    God forbid there should be any nuance on a case-by-case basis. Broad brush strokes of good and evil are all anyone ever needs. Zimmerman (as well as those cops and soldiers) is a terrible person. Full stop.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    BubbaT wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Tach wrote: »
    dbrock270 wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »

    People are starting to realize that this trial is pretty much the media pushing us to believe who's guilty and who's innocent. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions about guilt, but I think it's pretty obvious the media is setting it up so to make people believe Zimmerman is a terrible person.

    Setting it up? The guy is a terrible person. Full stop. Non-terrible people don't go out on neighborhood watch armed and looking for trouble.

    I agree, cops are terrible people. Always strapping guns to their hips and going out on patrol looking for trouble.

    Soldiers too. Patrolling streets in Afghanistan with their M-16s and all...

    Wow.

    You know that cops and soldiers have killed unarmed people too, right?

    God forbid there should be any nuance on a case-by-case basis. Broad brush strokes of good and evil are all anyone ever needs. Zimmerman (as well as those cops and soldiers) is a terrible person. Full stop.

    But see, you're equating being a neighborhood batman to being an actual cop or soldier.

    You're both being geese.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Gigazombie CybermageGigazombie Cybermage Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    That's it, my disgust level is reaching critical mass here. The case is fucked. A teenager was stalked and shot dead, and of course, it's his fault. Good going America. Good fucking going. The media and the law has already decided they're going to demonize Martin, so fuck it. Might as well fabricate evidence to support it to. I mean, it's not like they tried it already by intimidating witnesses and "correcting" their statements. Hey, let's let Zimmerman make his best Trayvon Martin impression! That's an awesome idea! Now excuse me while I go eat some fetuses.

    steam_sig.png
  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    gjaustin wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    It is typical for the prosecutor to go for a greater charge than they can likely achieve. It makes plea bargaining easier, and I'm pretty sure that FL works like a lot of places - when the jury goes into deliberation, if they agree "not guilty" on murder II, then that instantaneously results in a charge of manslaughter that they must then deliberate on, based on the same trial procedings.

    When I was on a jury, some of the charges before us worked that way. The judge explained that for some of the charges, if we found not guilty, before even turning in our verdict we must also then deliberate and agree guilty/not-guilty regarding a specific lesser charge for the same offense.

    There are of course a ton of practical reasons for this, but IMO one of the big problems with it is that it allows for the appearance of a compromise option. If there is any significant disagreement about the greater charge, human nature tends towards an offer of "ok how about not guilty on the greater, guilty on the lesser?" despite the fact that perhaps everyone on the room actually feels like it is either guilty on the greater or not guilty on all, and they ought to be deliberating instead of compromising.

    Then they might as well charge him with Murder 1, some hate crimes, and jaywalking while they're at it.

    I happen to think that he's very likely guilty of manslaughter. But I've seen absolutely zero evidence that even remotely suggests that murder is an appropriate charge. This is what is making me seriously reconsider that he's even guilty of anything at all.

    Lesser included offenses are a thing. It allows jurys to convict defendants of lesser crimes that are included in the nature of the charged offense. So if someone ran across the street illegally and then murdered someone and was charged with Murder I, the jury could find him guilty of Murder II but not jaywalking since jaywalking isnt an element of Murder I. In this case, since Zimmerman was charged with Murder II he can be found guilty of (I think) anything from Murder II to manslaughter/criminally negligent homicide, but I dont know Florida's homicide laws and Im too lazy to look them up so Im uncertain where the range of lesser included actually lays.


    As for charging everything in the book and then going to trial, it doesnt really work like that. They need to have some grounds to charge him with a crime and the closest they came to a hate crime was the ambiguous 911 call and even that probably wouldnt be enough to convict him (although it would probably be enough to charge him, but again IANAL so...).

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  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    Like I said before, He was jumped by Martin and these pictures clearly show the injuries that Zimmerman had when he jumped him.

    All these pictures show is that there was a scuffle, they dont indicate who attacked who.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    That's it, my disgust level is reaching critical mass here. The case is fucked. A teenager was stalked and shot dead, and of course, it's his fault. Good going America. Good fucking going. The media and the law has already decided they're going to demonize Martin, so fuck it. Might as well fabricate evidence to support it to. I mean, it's not like they tried it already by intimidating witnesses and "correcting" their statements. Hey, let's let Zimmerman make his best Trayvon Martin impression! That's an awesome idea! Now excuse me while I go eat some fetuses.

    Wow sensationalism. You should work for fox news.

  • VanguardVanguard The system was breaking down. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    Like I said before, He was jumped by Martin and these pictures clearly show the injuries that Zimmerman had when he jumped him.

    All these pictures show is that there was a scuffle, they dont indicate who attacked who.

    Don't let the facts get in the way of a good racist argument!

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