I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
You might have misunderstood me seeing how you echoed my point.
My point is, to make it clear, that having more women in game development does not equal overall better characters for everyone. What I believe is that, like Hollywood, you'll have games that cater to guys and games that cater to women.
That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't be a vertical improvement, only a horizontal one.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
Oniros25 on
Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
I don't really get this 47% of gamers are female. what games are they playing? the sims, farmville etc right?. Those are games sure, but when you look at the high exposure games that the industry focuses on, the AAA games and cod fanboys or whatever they might as well not even exist. they are in a completely separate area totally detached from everything else. league of legends has a huge fan base and riot did a survey recently that said only 10% of their users are female.
Ever hear of Big Fish Games? They're a digital distributor whose schtick is that they release a new game every day, which is almost always a hidden-object, adventure, match-3, or some other kind of puzzle game. My wife buys and plays 3 or 4 of these every week - they have loyalty programs and subscriptions and frequent sales that make this pretty cheap - and probably spent more money on, and more time playing, video games last year than I did.
Think of it as kind of a casual-friendly Steam, complete with its forum full of - mostly women - trying to enable each other into bankruptcy just like in the Steam thread here.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Diversity in perspective is good. But I don't think making more crap is something that we should aspire to. It's a bandaid, not a solution.
IMO, it's the responsibility of a good writer (male or female) to do his reasearch on relevant subjects and take multiple viewpoints in account in the first place.
In bigger projects or projects who have a bigger focus on writing/multiple writers (Adventure, RPG's) companies should draw up some guidelines to approach these topics.
I can tell you, right now, that getting more women into the industry - while it isn't going to fix everything overnight - will help. A lot. And while there's some comparison with Hollywood, games have the advantage of still being an industry in relative infancy. Movies have had a century to coagulate in their current form, while I still think we can shift the eventual direction of games into a more inclusive direction.
Some women like playing casual games, sure. So do some men. And I don't think you can really say 'well, women don't want to play core games, just look at the numbers' when the problem is that the core games don't really include them in any meaningful way. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The fact is, the 'default' person any game is made to appeal to is white, straight men. There aren't a ton of games I've played where the protagonist couldn't be female - and, honestly, why does a female protagonist need to be justified more than a male one? Far Cry 3 is a good example - I'm having a blast with it, but I don't really see why the genders couldn't be swapped. Considering I get all my powers from a magical tattoo, I see no reason why I couldn't be a woman instead of a man - but by default we expect a guy, and so that's what we, by and large, get.
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
It's because it's an orign where a man kidnaps the protagonist and forces her to have power. It would have been equally a bad idea to use your example if Spider-Man began with a old creepy female version of Norman Osborne forcing Peter to be bit by a radioactive spider.
It's not just that the power is forced on her. Lots of heroes have power forced on them. It's the conditions under which that power is forced on her. It was bad and I should feel bad (and I do.)
Oniros25 on
Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
You might have misunderstood me seeing how you echoed my point.
My point is, to make it clear, that having more women in game development does not equal overall better characters for everyone. What I believe is that, like Hollywood, you'll have games that cater to guys and games that cater to women.
That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't be a vertical improvement, only a horizontal one.
I don't think anyone was arguing that having more ladies would mean overall better characters?
having more ladies in development will mean more games that consider female perspectives, for both good games and bad games
I do not see how this is anything less than a positive
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
It's because it's an orign where a man kidnaps the protagonist and forces her to have power. It would have been equally a bad idea to use your example if Spider-Man began with a old creepy female version of Norman Osborne forcing Peter to be bit by a radioactive spider.
It's not just that the power is forced on her. Lots of heroes have power forced on them. It's the conditions under which that power is forced on her. It was bad and I should feel bad (and I do.)
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Diversity in perspective is good. But I don't think making more crap is something that we should aspire to. It's a bandaid, not a solution.
IMO, it's the responsibility of a good writer (male or female) to do his reasearch on relevant subjects and take multiple viewpoints in account in the first place.
In bigger projects or projects who have a bigger focus on writing/multiple writers (Adventure, RPG's) companies should draw up some guidelines to approach these topics.
this whole discussion isn't really about making better games
it's about involving women in games
even with more diverse perspectives the industry will still make crap, that's never going to change
but even crap with fairly divided input is better than one-sided crap
and awesome games with fairly divided input will be even better than one-sided awesome games
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
The double edged sword to this is that we end up with a "Lifetime for gaming" scenario where most of the games from a given company are about female protagonists facing off against psychotic male borderline-rapists in every game you play.
Fortunately that aspect of the industry can be just as ignored as it is on Television.
Donnicton on
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
The double edged sword to this is that we end up with a "Lifetime for gaming" scenario where most of the games from a given company are about female protagonists facing off against psychotic male borderline-rapists in every game you play.
Fortunately that aspect of the industry can be just as ignored as it is on Television.
You're going to have the "pandering dreck" portion of any medium no matter what - it's not like it doesn't exist in games now.
Getting more female perspectives into the industry means getting them into the entire industry. I"m confused by the argument in this thread that seems to say that female involvement in the industry isn't a good thing because they might make bad games. "Lifetime for gaming" games exist now, but they're all the male equivalent of "Lifetime." But all of a sudden we're concerned about the possibility that women might make shallow games that appeal to their own shallow fantasies? The male version of that is pretty much the baseline for most existing games.
That sort of thing has existed for TV and books for a long time and to some extent does exist and/or will exist in gaming. Before Twilight we had those romance novels (still do) about scottish highland lords with long hair and nothing but kilts and gleaming muscles (and sadly, no decapitations or Queen). A lot of the new, suddenly surprise popular (though not really a surprise) books are just the same type of books rewritten to appeal to a new, younger, crowd that likes vampires and werewolves (and other supernatural beings) and less passive female heroines. It's not indicative of all things women everywhere want though and I'd rather wish some people would stop pretending this is so (Twilight is popular = all women want men like Edward or Jacob! -> all what women want in games is games that are like Twilight!). I don't assume all men want every bit of entertainment they consume to be like Conan the Barbarian. There's a place for that kind of stuff too but the focus should be on how we can make the other stuff and the industry in general not be so off-putting to women.
Yeah, if we're worrying about shallowness in games, that ship sailed a long time ago under the command of a male crew and brought back a rich cargo of wish fulfillment from the new world.
Getting more female perspectives into the industry means getting them into the entire industry. I"m confused by the argument in this thread that seems to say that female involvement in the industry isn't a good thing because they might make bad games.
If you mean me too. That's not my argument at all. My argument is to go against (among other things) sexism in general. Having more diversified sexism, racism and so on is *maybe* a step, but imo shouldn't be the final goal. We can still go further, especially in the gaming industry where that stuff is sadly the majority. And not just on the popular side.......
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
The double edged sword to this is that we end up with a "Lifetime for gaming" scenario where most of the games from a given company are about female protagonists facing off against psychotic male borderline-rapists in every game you play.
Fortunately that aspect of the industry can be just as ignored as it is on Television.
You're going to have the "pandering dreck" portion of any medium no matter what - it's not like it doesn't exist in games now.
Getting more female perspectives into the industry means getting them into the entire industry. I"m confused by the argument in this thread that seems to say that female involvement in the industry isn't a good thing because they might make bad games. "Lifetime for gaming" games exist now, but they're all the male equivalent of "Lifetime." But all of a sudden we're concerned about the possibility that women might make shallow games that appeal to their own shallow fantasies? The male version of that is pretty much the baseline for most existing games.
That's a hyperbolic draw from my post. I was being facetious, nowhere did I mention it as being an actual concern at all, and I certainly did not (intentionally) imply it.
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
it might not be sexist per se, but as a general trend of female characters, they are passive while male characters are active. it's good to buck that kind of trend, not just because it's the norm which can get tiring, but because it's a norm rooted in sexism.
edit: oh yeah i didn't read the bit where she's forced to have powers. that's troubling. good thing you caught it
As annecdotal evidence, I'd like to submit my own experience in a similarly maligned field. I'm currently writing a script for a superhero comic universe of my own design. For reasons I won't get into because it'd take forever and be off topic, I decided that the main character of my comic had to be a woman and went about crafting an origin for how she got her powers.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
it might not be sexist per se, but as a general trend of female characters, they are passive while male characters are active. it's good to buck that kind of trend, not just because it's the norm which can get tiring, but because it's a norm rooted in sexism.
edit: oh yeah i didn't read the bit where she's forced to have powers. that's troubling. good thing you caught it
Yeah, would've tanked the project in short order (assuming I can get it off the ground at all.) The funny thing is, I set out down this road thinking it would be nice to have a female hero who could be taken seriously without being a knock off of a male version of a hero (there are a few, but they really are few and far between.) The road to hell really can be paved with good intentions.
Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
Could...could we do that? *begins tinkering in the secret lab*
Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
No one's making the argument 'just add women, that'll sort things out!'
What we're saying (or, at least, what -I'm- saying) is that it's one step in the process. Making the industry a less toxic place for women (or, in a lot of cases, really anyone who isn't in the core white heterosexual male demographic) is the first step in the process. If the industry is less openly hostile, then you'll see more people who aren't part of that demographic start to come on board. If you have more people who represent alternative viewpoints in the industry, you'll see games start to reflect a wider variety of viewpoints. The solution is, obviously, not 'toss some women in there, that'll fix things!' but having the industry be in a place where more women are willing to work there because every day isn't a toxic, hostile mess is a step in a long and in-depth process and it's a pretty big one.
no need my friend, women emit anti-sexism radiation naturally through their pores, and their very existence in large enough numbers in the games industry will surely solve our problems, no work needed on our part. let's go to the pub
- I had the thought to give successful female rolemodels in gaming like Rihanna Prachett, Amy Henning or Mary DeMarle and make them more prominent. Don't know if that is actually a good idea though
- Setting standards regarding writing and art design. z.B in internal Guidelines
- Bigger Focus on Indies or Kickstarter.
- Consumer change, bringing more females to actually PLAY video games. As long as your average consumer remains the dudebro, a lot of the really bad stuff will be demanded from the publisher/marketing department.
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
No one's making the argument 'just add women, that'll sort things out!'
What we're saying (or, at least, what -I'm- saying) is that it's one step in the process. Making the industry a less toxic place for women (or, in a lot of cases, really anyone who isn't in the core white heterosexual male demographic) is the first step in the process. If the industry is less openly hostile, then you'll see more people who aren't part of that demographic start to come on board. If you have more people who represent alternative viewpoints in the industry, you'll see games start to reflect a wider variety of viewpoints. The solution is, obviously, not 'toss some women in there, that'll fix things!' but having the industry be in a place where more women are willing to work there because every day isn't a toxic, hostile mess is a step in a long and in-depth process and it's a pretty big one.
it's one step, but hopefully not step one. because that is going to take a while, as you say, and this issue needs sorting ASAP.
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
I agree that it's a bit of a passive response, but really, what else is there? I mean, combating the issues now means... what? What does that look like? The males in the industry suddenly realizing "maybe a bikini isn't great combat gear"?
This is the great catch-22. Aside from the slow march of progress, there's not a lot happening to create better attitudes towards women in the industry, which means a lot of women don't want to work in the industry, which slows the progress of attitudes towards women in the industry, etc. Everyone knows what would help, but it's going to take more men in the industry refusing to churn out cheesecake before that happens. And now we're talking about a larger cultural shift regarding women in media, or women in general.
Teenage males will always be utter shitlords with super predictable spending habits, that's why it's up to the current crop of devs to say "we're going to be better than this".
This is addressed in one of the links in my original post. There are things that the default (white, straight men) can do as allies and advocates. That's one of the reasons I wanted to discuss this issue in the first place: I'm a (mostly) straight (hyper) white guy. I recognized a long time ago that I can't truly feel what it's like to be on the other side of this issue, and I never will. What I (and others) can do is actively work to make room for those who do have the capacity to express and feel what that's like, and perhaps more importantly create works that come from perspectives that I could never dream of. That's a tremendous benefit of something like #1ReasonWhy. I've discovered voices I didn't know existed because they just don't get the attention that the mainstream does.
I love something like GiantBomb, but it's not exactly novel. What's novel is the amount of hyper fascinating work being done on the fringe because of this common perception that anything that isn't the default isn't worth covering. Examples:
This is another link about how to be helpful and not a detriment. First up: Don't come in skeptical and hostile. Listen. Believe it or not, most people aren't accustomed to that. We want to talk and get our opinions out. Try stepping back a bit and hearing what those who are most often ignored have to say. It doesn't cost anything.
To lighten things up a bit, here's a fun story about a woman realizing how few women actually work at Valve.
More broadly on the subject of women writing about games, this is a fantastic blog I didn't know about before this whole thing got going.
I'm not trying to pimp any of these sites out, and I have no connection to any of them, but they serve as solid examples that it's not just about getting more women involved in the industry. It's amusing that that's our default response, because it's very save the princess, and that's not the issue. Women and non-white straight men are active agents in the world, and they already exist in this industry. One of the single best things we can do to improve things is simply to pay attention to those people that are already here. It's not some sort of penance either, this shit is fascinating if you give it half a chance. It's done a lot to completely rejuvenate my interest in and love for games, simply because the norm has gotten really damned repetitive lately.
Teenage males will always be utter shitlords with super predictable spending habits, that's why it's up to the current crop of devs to say "we're going to be better than this".
Then you should hope against that. Because this is the ONLY way things are really going to change, at least as long we have capitalism. Games are expensive, publishers are lead commercialy. It's just too risky not to go by consumer demand.
Devs can't go against that. A publisher's marketing department can easily demand to make the bust size of the female hero bigger and the devs have no real choice as to change it if they don't want to go under/lose the contract. Except if they somehow got leverage, but that has to be some pretty big leverage.
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
and, again, it won't do diddly if attitudes and spending habits don't change. getting ladies into the field won't help as much as everyone wants to believe, getting ladies (and gays and lesbians let's be a little more inclusive here) interested in the hobby and buying things they want WILL
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
and, again, it won't do diddly if attitudes and spending habits don't change. getting ladies into the field won't help as much as everyone wants to believe, getting ladies (and gays and lesbians let's be a little more inclusive here) interested in the hobby and buying things they want WILL
I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive, however. We could have a peanut butter and chocolate plan!
Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
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what exactly is the problem we are trying to solve here again
I am under the impression that the problem here is not enough ladies in game development and the "number one reason why" refers to the reasons why there aren't enough ladies in game development
+1
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
and, again, it won't do diddly if attitudes and spending habits don't change. getting ladies into the field won't help as much as everyone wants to believe, getting ladies (and gays and lesbians let's be a little more inclusive here) interested in the hobby and buying things they want WILL
how do you think attitudes and spending habits are supposed to change, if not by making alternate viewpoints available and visible? Getting ladies and non-straight-white-males interested in the hobby is made that much harder AND won't affect shit if all they have to choose from is Straight White Male Fantasy X, Y, or Z.
of the few ladies there are in the industry, they're largely invisible. there's no female Miyamoto or Reggie or Kaz or Molyneux or Bleszinski, no face of a company or franchise. the closest one was perhaps Jade Raymond but she's been behind the scenes since Assassin's Creed 1. dudes being the face of everything video games contributes greatly to the perception of video games being a "dude thing". ladies don't just need to be in positions of power, they need to be in visible positions of power to attract more ladies to the industry. #1reason is step one of this, hopefully.
how do you think attitudes and spending habits are supposed to change, if not by making alternate viewpoints available and visible? Getting ladies and non-straight-white-males interested in the hobby is made that much harder AND won't affect shit if all they have to choose from is Straight White Male Fantasy X, Y, or Z.
Because the market dictates the product, not the other way around. You get Straight Male Fantasy X, Y, Z BECAUSE straight males who want that fantasy are playing games.
Also, MagicPink's and my point is just that we should do MORE things than just attracting more female designers. Increasing the playerbase of females as well as minorities is proportional to making the gaming industry a more attractive one for them. Also actually making their contributions count. And not just reduced back to *Straight Male Fantasy*.
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Twilight is an excellent example of why women in the industry does change things.
Yes Twilight is horribly shallow and badly written, but for once the characters and writing are made to appeal to women's shallow desires rather than men's. The main character has no personality so that women can just put themselves in her place where she's living this great (shallow) fantasy of having two hot guys fight over her.
No one thinks women are inherently better at writing thoughtful and meaningful stories than men; bringing more women into the industry means a diversity of perspective, because up to this point the perspectives in both films and games have been one-sided.
Twilight is shallow, but there are plenty of female written and directed films that are actually well-written, and separate from the level of skill in the storytelling, those films bring in a female viewpoint that male directors can't bring. The same is true of games; having more women in the industry increases the diversity of viewpoints so that whether you're making a shallow FPS or a character-and-story-driven adventure, the voice of the creator is more than just what men think should fill those places.
You might have misunderstood me seeing how you echoed my point.
My point is, to make it clear, that having more women in game development does not equal overall better characters for everyone. What I believe is that, like Hollywood, you'll have games that cater to guys and games that cater to women.
That's what I meant when I said it wouldn't be a vertical improvement, only a horizontal one.
In my first draft, she gets captured by her arch nemesis and was forced into a super science machine that was meant to kill her, but malfunctions and gives her super powers instead. That lasted all of one draft because (thankfully) I showed it to my girlfriend.
"Why does she have to get her powers by having something done to her. If she's the hero, why doesn't she get to choose to be the hero?" she asked,
"Oh, my god! I'm an idiot!" Was my reply. I am decidedly not an idiot normally (you'll have to take my word for it) and I certainly didn't go out of my way to belittle my protagonist. It was an accident, but it was an accident that would have screwed me if I hadn't gotten a woman's perspective on it.
That's why we need to have women helping out with these things. At this point, I'm running everything past Rachel to make sure I don't derp like that ever again. She's also getting a writing credit. That's the least I can do for her saving me and providing much needed perspective for the whole project.
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
See, this is where I always get confused with sexism.
I don't see anything wrong with that origin, it could slant how the powers are viewed, it's an interesting start etc. etc.
I never get how that's viewed as sexist. She could still choose to become the hero after, Spider-man was hardly said 'I'm gonna find me a radioactive spider'
Ever hear of Big Fish Games? They're a digital distributor whose schtick is that they release a new game every day, which is almost always a hidden-object, adventure, match-3, or some other kind of puzzle game. My wife buys and plays 3 or 4 of these every week - they have loyalty programs and subscriptions and frequent sales that make this pretty cheap - and probably spent more money on, and more time playing, video games last year than I did.
Think of it as kind of a casual-friendly Steam, complete with its forum full of - mostly women - trying to enable each other into bankruptcy just like in the Steam thread here.
Diversity in perspective is good. But I don't think making more crap is something that we should aspire to. It's a bandaid, not a solution.
IMO, it's the responsibility of a good writer (male or female) to do his reasearch on relevant subjects and take multiple viewpoints in account in the first place.
In bigger projects or projects who have a bigger focus on writing/multiple writers (Adventure, RPG's) companies should draw up some guidelines to approach these topics.
Some women like playing casual games, sure. So do some men. And I don't think you can really say 'well, women don't want to play core games, just look at the numbers' when the problem is that the core games don't really include them in any meaningful way. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The fact is, the 'default' person any game is made to appeal to is white, straight men. There aren't a ton of games I've played where the protagonist couldn't be female - and, honestly, why does a female protagonist need to be justified more than a male one? Far Cry 3 is a good example - I'm having a blast with it, but I don't really see why the genders couldn't be swapped. Considering I get all my powers from a magical tattoo, I see no reason why I couldn't be a woman instead of a man - but by default we expect a guy, and so that's what we, by and large, get.
It's because it's an orign where a man kidnaps the protagonist and forces her to have power. It would have been equally a bad idea to use your example if Spider-Man began with a old creepy female version of Norman Osborne forcing Peter to be bit by a radioactive spider.
It's not just that the power is forced on her. Lots of heroes have power forced on them. It's the conditions under which that power is forced on her. It was bad and I should feel bad (and I do.)
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
I don't think anyone was arguing that having more ladies would mean overall better characters?
having more ladies in development will mean more games that consider female perspectives, for both good games and bad games
I do not see how this is anything less than a positive
Ah, I can see that being an issue.
this whole discussion isn't really about making better games
it's about involving women in games
even with more diverse perspectives the industry will still make crap, that's never going to change
but even crap with fairly divided input is better than one-sided crap
and awesome games with fairly divided input will be even better than one-sided awesome games
The double edged sword to this is that we end up with a "Lifetime for gaming" scenario where most of the games from a given company are about female protagonists facing off against psychotic male borderline-rapists in every game you play.
Fortunately that aspect of the industry can be just as ignored as it is on Television.
You're going to have the "pandering dreck" portion of any medium no matter what - it's not like it doesn't exist in games now.
Getting more female perspectives into the industry means getting them into the entire industry. I"m confused by the argument in this thread that seems to say that female involvement in the industry isn't a good thing because they might make bad games. "Lifetime for gaming" games exist now, but they're all the male equivalent of "Lifetime." But all of a sudden we're concerned about the possibility that women might make shallow games that appeal to their own shallow fantasies? The male version of that is pretty much the baseline for most existing games.
If you mean me too. That's not my argument at all. My argument is to go against (among other things) sexism in general. Having more diversified sexism, racism and so on is *maybe* a step, but imo shouldn't be the final goal. We can still go further, especially in the gaming industry where that stuff is sadly the majority. And not just on the popular side.......
That's a hyperbolic draw from my post. I was being facetious, nowhere did I mention it as being an actual concern at all, and I certainly did not (intentionally) imply it.
it might not be sexist per se, but as a general trend of female characters, they are passive while male characters are active. it's good to buck that kind of trend, not just because it's the norm which can get tiring, but because it's a norm rooted in sexism.
edit: oh yeah i didn't read the bit where she's forced to have powers. that's troubling. good thing you caught it
Yeah, would've tanked the project in short order (assuming I can get it off the ground at all.) The funny thing is, I set out down this road thinking it would be nice to have a female hero who could be taken seriously without being a knock off of a male version of a hero (there are a few, but they really are few and far between.) The road to hell really can be paved with good intentions.
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
very true
also, the "more women in the field will sort things out" argument annoys me quite a bit because it's a bit of a passive response that avoids combating issues right now and puts them off until women move, apparently via osmosis, into the field. and also how are women eager to make things less toxic going to move into a field that is actively hostile to their presence? by being insanely thick skinned? by implanting themselves into the industry as sleeper agents, acting unconcerned about sexism until a certain phrase reactivates their "destroy the patriarchy" circuits?
Could...could we do that? *begins tinkering in the secret lab*
3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
No one's making the argument 'just add women, that'll sort things out!'
What we're saying (or, at least, what -I'm- saying) is that it's one step in the process. Making the industry a less toxic place for women (or, in a lot of cases, really anyone who isn't in the core white heterosexual male demographic) is the first step in the process. If the industry is less openly hostile, then you'll see more people who aren't part of that demographic start to come on board. If you have more people who represent alternative viewpoints in the industry, you'll see games start to reflect a wider variety of viewpoints. The solution is, obviously, not 'toss some women in there, that'll fix things!' but having the industry be in a place where more women are willing to work there because every day isn't a toxic, hostile mess is a step in a long and in-depth process and it's a pretty big one.
- I had the thought to give successful female rolemodels in gaming like Rihanna Prachett, Amy Henning or Mary DeMarle and make them more prominent. Don't know if that is actually a good idea though
- Setting standards regarding writing and art design. z.B in internal Guidelines
- Bigger Focus on Indies or Kickstarter.
- Consumer change, bringing more females to actually PLAY video games. As long as your average consumer remains the dudebro, a lot of the really bad stuff will be demanded from the publisher/marketing department.
I wonder if we could kickstart a female developer team to do what Clamp did in the manga scene years ago.
"We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
it's one step, but hopefully not step one. because that is going to take a while, as you say, and this issue needs sorting ASAP.
I agree that it's a bit of a passive response, but really, what else is there? I mean, combating the issues now means... what? What does that look like? The males in the industry suddenly realizing "maybe a bikini isn't great combat gear"?
This is the great catch-22. Aside from the slow march of progress, there's not a lot happening to create better attitudes towards women in the industry, which means a lot of women don't want to work in the industry, which slows the progress of attitudes towards women in the industry, etc. Everyone knows what would help, but it's going to take more men in the industry refusing to churn out cheesecake before that happens. And now we're talking about a larger cultural shift regarding women in media, or women in general.
Teenage males will always be utter shitlords with super predictable spending habits, that's why it's up to the current crop of devs to say "we're going to be better than this".
I'm rambling and I've lost my point.
tl;dr yeah, I agree, but... uh... yeah...
I love something like GiantBomb, but it's not exactly novel. What's novel is the amount of hyper fascinating work being done on the fringe because of this common perception that anything that isn't the default isn't worth covering. Examples:
This is another link about how to be helpful and not a detriment. First up: Don't come in skeptical and hostile. Listen. Believe it or not, most people aren't accustomed to that. We want to talk and get our opinions out. Try stepping back a bit and hearing what those who are most often ignored have to say. It doesn't cost anything.
To lighten things up a bit, here's a fun story about a woman realizing how few women actually work at Valve.
More broadly on the subject of women writing about games, this is a fantastic blog I didn't know about before this whole thing got going.
I'm not trying to pimp any of these sites out, and I have no connection to any of them, but they serve as solid examples that it's not just about getting more women involved in the industry. It's amusing that that's our default response, because it's very save the princess, and that's not the issue. Women and non-white straight men are active agents in the world, and they already exist in this industry. One of the single best things we can do to improve things is simply to pay attention to those people that are already here. It's not some sort of penance either, this shit is fascinating if you give it half a chance. It's done a lot to completely rejuvenate my interest in and love for games, simply because the norm has gotten really damned repetitive lately.
Then you should hope against that. Because this is the ONLY way things are really going to change, at least as long we have capitalism. Games are expensive, publishers are lead commercialy. It's just too risky not to go by consumer demand.
Devs can't go against that. A publisher's marketing department can easily demand to make the bust size of the female hero bigger and the devs have no real choice as to change it if they don't want to go under/lose the contract. Except if they somehow got leverage, but that has to be some pretty big leverage.
this is my first post in this thread wherein I highlight #1reasonwhy and, though I didn't know it existed yet, #1reasontobe and #1reasonmentors as ways to increase the visibility of the current contributions of ladies in the field and allow them to reach out to and encourage future lady developers
and, again, it won't do diddly if attitudes and spending habits don't change. getting ladies into the field won't help as much as everyone wants to believe, getting ladies (and gays and lesbians let's be a little more inclusive here) interested in the hobby and buying things they want WILL
I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive, however. We could have a peanut butter and chocolate plan!
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what exactly is the problem we are trying to solve here again
I am under the impression that the problem here is not enough ladies in game development and the "number one reason why" refers to the reasons why there aren't enough ladies in game development
how do you think attitudes and spending habits are supposed to change, if not by making alternate viewpoints available and visible? Getting ladies and non-straight-white-males interested in the hobby is made that much harder AND won't affect shit if all they have to choose from is Straight White Male Fantasy X, Y, or Z.
number
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Because the market dictates the product, not the other way around. You get Straight Male Fantasy X, Y, Z BECAUSE straight males who want that fantasy are playing games.
Also, MagicPink's and my point is just that we should do MORE things than just attracting more female designers. Increasing the playerbase of females as well as minorities is proportional to making the gaming industry a more attractive one for them. Also actually making their contributions count. And not just reduced back to *Straight Male Fantasy*.
Back in the day? Back in the day? You young'ns and your "if it happened before 2000, it didn't happen"!
Stevie Case, now THAT'S "back in the day".
I do remember the playboy thing
oh what do you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_gamer#The_figure_of_the_.22girl_gamer.22