after the fact harry basically goes, yeah i totally wasn't strong enough to beat you guys, what was going on there. and "santa" is like, well you needed to lead the hunt.
Dresden was powerful enough to make Santa being defeated believable.
Well, it's not so much that Dresden is powerful enough to take on both the Erlking and Kringle together, as his REPUTATION is powerful enough to convince the Hunt it could happen. That was the main thing I got from reading that section. That and dropping out the Erlking and Kringle, the Winter Knight is pretty much going to be #3 in any Hunt scenario, thus making him #1 when those two drop out.
Something that kind of strikes me is this: do we see the best and brightest of the Winter Court mucking about in the mortal realm, or are they generals fighting the outsiders? It seems to me that the mortal muckers are either the rejects of the war or heroes who have earned some extended leave until recalled (I'm thinking the Erlking may be in this category.) The Red Hood is just a small time thug with a hang up about headwear, for example.
Imagine how hard core the Fae are that hold the line day in and day out for centuries.
Yeah, pretty sure Butcher fleshed out/thought up more afterwards.
Which has me thinking in my re-read (Proven Guilty and onward spoilers):
What exactly is "black magic"? Dresden starts thinking necromancy may be ok, if he BBQ's someones with fire that's not black magic unless it's got a built in 'You killed a human, oops!' clause, twisting peoples minds seems to be the one big no no, but then untwisting is the same thing in practice. I kind of dislike that entire 'Black magic twists' you angle he added. I suppose this keeps guns around, though!
It is rather odd, isn't it.
What's the difference, after all, between magically paralyzing someone then cutting off their head, and burning them to death with magical fire?
My guess is that magic, all magic, has a kind of 'equal and opposite reaction' thing going for it. Harry talks about it a little bit, like how he says that using Mind Magic to enforce your will on someone twists your own thinking, making you more and more prone to using your magic to force others to do your bidding.
Harry, as much as he throws around fire and force, also seems to get burned and beat up a lot.
Coincidence!? I think not.
But in a lot of ways, I would guess that 'black magic' is simply illegal applications of magic. White Council says no killing people with magic, no mucking about with people's brains with magic, or we kill you. So now, people who use magic have to keep the collateral damage to an absolute minimum, no fire raining from the sky, no human sacrifice, etc, or risk magic police coming for them.
It has always been my opinion that with the exception of mucking about with free will, which is always bad, that intentions mean everything. Necromancy on a million year old Dino to save the world is ok for your Karma...Necromancy on a recently deceased human to kill an innocent is not. The white council pretty clearly goes way over board in what they enforce and dont, calling all things bad regardless of intent. But true black magic, that will tangibly affect you, is governed by laws of a purer morality.
I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. Free will is a Serious Thing in the Dresden universe. The sorts of people who object to it being played with are the sort that get to declare what morality is. Beyond that, intentions and how reasonable your methods were are everything. Well, unless it's the White Council asking, but they're just trying to sort out which vertebrae to put the sword between.
Dresden was powerful enough to make Santa being defeated believable.
Well, it's not so much that Dresden is powerful enough to take on both the Erlking and Kringle together, as his REPUTATION is powerful enough to convince the Hunt it could happen. That was the main thing I got from reading that section. That and dropping out the Erlking and Kringle, the Winter Knight is pretty much going to be #3 in any Hunt scenario, thus making him #1 when those two drop out.
Something that kind of strikes me is this: do we see the best and brightest of the Winter Court mucking about in the mortal realm, or are they generals fighting the outsiders? It seems to me that the mortal muckers are either the rejects of the war or heroes who have earned some extended leave until recalled (I'm thinking the Erlking may be in this category.) The Red Hood is just a small time thug with a hang up about headwear, for example.
Imagine how hard core the Fae are that hold the line day in and day out for centuries.
Given what they were saying about casualties, and not really having them, I suspect that there may only be one way to survive the Gates for years: Don't be there. Assuming that simple skill or ability is enough though, anybody who has been on that line for a while has got to be ridiculously bad ass.
I expect that you get the more politically able Fae in court and dealing with the mortals, those who can't handle coordinated battle, or those who simply don't have the power to handle a fight like that. Red Cap Sr strikes me as in both the second and third groups. Some of his minions are only in group 2, the rest in 2 and 3. I suspect most of the folks at the party fall into the political group. My feeling is that the Gates are a permanent assignment, without substantial leave.
As far as the Erlking goes, he's wild fae isn't he?[/quote]
Yeah, pretty sure Butcher fleshed out/thought up more afterwards.
Which has me thinking in my re-read (Proven Guilty and onward spoilers):
What exactly is "black magic"? Dresden starts thinking necromancy may be ok, if he BBQ's someones with fire that's not black magic unless it's got a built in 'You killed a human, oops!' clause, twisting peoples minds seems to be the one big no no, but then untwisting is the same thing in practice. I kind of dislike that entire 'Black magic twists' you angle he added. I suppose this keeps guns around, though!
It is rather odd, isn't it.
What's the difference, after all, between magically paralyzing someone then cutting off their head, and burning them to death with magical fire?
My guess is that magic, all magic, has a kind of 'equal and opposite reaction' thing going for it. Harry talks about it a little bit, like how he says that using Mind Magic to enforce your will on someone twists your own thinking, making you more and more prone to using your magic to force others to do your bidding.
Harry, as much as he throws around fire and force, also seems to get burned and beat up a lot.
Coincidence!? I think not.
But in a lot of ways, I would guess that 'black magic' is simply illegal applications of magic. White Council says no killing people with magic, no mucking about with people's brains with magic, or we kill you. So now, people who use magic have to keep the collateral damage to an absolute minimum, no fire raining from the sky, no human sacrifice, etc, or risk magic police coming for them.
It has always been my opinion that with the exception of mucking about with free will, which is always bad, that intentions mean everything. Necromancy on a million year old Dino to save the world is ok for your Karma...Necromancy on a recently deceased human to kill an innocent is not. The white council pretty clearly goes way over board in what they enforce and dont, calling all things bad regardless of intent. But true black magic, that will tangibly affect you, is governed by laws of a purer morality.
In one of the books there's a situation with luccio and the merlin where they go into the laws.
The laws aren't about good or evil. They are about restraining power. There is a limited effect you can have on the mortal world if you follow the laws.
If you bind them to a morality, then whose morals are followed. Eventually it ends up with the white council civil war and rampant abuses of magic. The mortal world enslaved by wizards and such. Turns out, some of the older wizards have seen some bad stuff from when the laws weren't enforced
Thinking on certain events in the last couple of books I'm reminded of something that initially turned me on to the Dressden Files books when compared to most other urban fantasy. In most of those books the reason the wizards and vampires and whatever don't simple take over the world (if they haven't already) is because of . . . stuff, basically. Earlier in the Dressden books it was made clear that the reason supernatural powers stay out of sight is because organized and aware humans would stomp them out of existence.
There have been a few key characters who are moving into positions of greater and greater mundane power, so if that uprising was ever needed I think soon enough it could actually happen.
I'm expecting the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to have at least one "modern military force curbstomps a supernatural army" scene. An AC-130 shredding a goblin horde, or something. Our entire military and civilian defense infrastructure is built around fire and steel. Those two things are basically the bane of everything.
I'm expecting the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to have at least one "modern military force curbstomps a supernatural army" scene. An AC-130 shredding a goblin horde, or something. Our entire military and civilian defense infrastructure is built around fire and steel. Those two things are basically the bane of everything.
"What the hell is 'white phosphorous and discarding SABOT'?"
"... let me put it this way; be in another ZIP code."
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
The black of black magic needs to be laid out at some point, because there's nothing that is universally bad to everyone. Obliterating the free will of the Nickelheads is a good thing, for example. Michael and others wouldn't agree, but most people would. It's just a huge shady setup. Which will probably stay that way.
The magic itself isn't evil it is what it does to you and others. Obliterating the mind of a nickle head might be good in one way but there is always a push back. The more you fuck with others minds without there say the more it screws you up and you end up like the Korean kid in the beginning of Proven Guilty.
Proven Guilty spoilers
Magic has a cost and mind magic has a huge cost. I mean look what it was starting to do to Molly and she was trying to help. And look at what it did to those she did it to.
as she's just fine until her act in Ghost Story and as far as we know that wasn't even caused by Black Magic. And she sprang back just fine afterwards regardless it seems.
as she's just fine until her act in Ghost Story and as far as we know that wasn't even caused by Black Magic. And she sprang back just fine afterwards regardless it seems.
Molly is an example of how to get away from it.
Between the mirrors of her possible futures Dresden saw and the damage it did with good intentions imagine trying to wipe a nickle head? I mean Molly also was caught really early. Dresden did a lot of work to get it so she wouldn't become the Korean kid. But fucking with people's minds without permission is one way ticket to the black robes in the Dresden verse. It might not be overnight but there is enough push back to fuck with almost anyone.
The black of black magic needs to be laid out at some point, because there's nothing that is universally bad to everyone. Obliterating the free will of the Nickelheads is a good thing, for example. Michael and others wouldn't agree, but most people would. It's just a huge shady setup. Which will probably stay that way.
My impression is that the White God would object to removing their free will. It might save lives, but free will is more important (see also: the knights of the sword always checking if they repent before killing the hell out of them). If one were to start making a habit of removing the free will of others, I suspect that Uriel would feel compelled to intercede (admittedly, probably by getting someone else to do something about it).
Also, there is the other definition of black magic that Moridin889 mentioned, which is more about limiting power than about applying morality. The catch is that different people seem to use black magic differently. Harry seems to be much closer to the side of motive and free will matter whereas the white council clearly doesn't care a lot about motive so long as there's no unauthorized power creep. But both seem to call those things black magic.
It's all theory, as killing someone is a damn sure way to remove their free will and that gets the go ahead! :P But that's probably over analyzing it. Lack of free will is probably 1 of the pillars of black magic, yeah.
I don't necessarily think that any of the fae in the courts that meddle with the mortal world are there for the simple reason of being "weak". They just have a different purpose. Remember that fae thrive off of being known, the more mortals who know of you and think about you the stronger and more powerful you become. If nobody on the mortal realm knows of your existence you can't access it and may cease to exist (the point of Thomas' little group for many of the really bad things). So for many of the fae who prance around the world it could be to keep a belief in their existence. Redhat was probably a lot more powerful back in his heyday of killing people in abandoned buildings and roadsides. I bet having a reputation of brutally killing people just to dip your hat in their blood would scare the crap out of a lot of people and would cause you to be blamed for missing travelers even if you weren't involved. Developing an ever greater reputation and enhancing your power.
I'm expecting the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to have at least one "modern military force curbstomps a supernatural army" scene. An AC-130 shredding a goblin horde, or something. Our entire military and civilian defense infrastructure is built around fire and steel. Those two things are basically the bane of everything.
"What the hell is 'white phosphorous and discarding SABOT'?"
"... let me put it this way; be in another ZIP code."
I'm expecting the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to have at least one "modern military force curbstomps a supernatural army" scene. An AC-130 shredding a goblin horde, or something. Our entire military and civilian defense infrastructure is built around fire and steel. Those two things are basically the bane of everything.
"What the hell is 'white phosphorous and discarding SABOT'?"
"... let me put it this way; be in another ZIP code."
We did already have
Morgan nuking the naagloshi.
Which may be the single most awesome thing that anyone in the Dresden Files has done so far. It's a tough call between that and Harry's big awesome thing that he did at the end of Dead Beat.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Something like that could be an interesting progression; something big enough going down that the 'mundane' world catches wind and has to deal with it (or at least buy time for 'the professionals' to step in), overwhelming military force applied, general (if limited) success, further battles go awry, both sides are forced to adapt, and suddenly there are mixed modern/supernatural units going toe to toe on the fields of conflict.
Of course, that then extrapolates into the government eventually following Marcone's approach to things, which might become large scale enough to perhaps change the very genre of the series, so I guess we shouldn't expect things to get too batshit crazy in that regard.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Or, perhaps even more fun: Marcone gains a position of significant legitimate power in the mortal world with regards to dealing with the supernatural. Like, the Secretary of Magical Affairs, a cabinet level position.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Don't think people are going to go from "Magic? Nut job." to creating offices dealing with it.
Unless shit goes down majorly and we get a time jump. Or I guess the next book, maybe...
Also, Thomas is a huge dick right here (Changes onward spoilers):
When Harry tells him about Maggie being taken he says "And how does this have anything to do with me?". Now it's possible Butcher was writing ahead of the characters knowledge there, as Thomas may have meant how would it physically affect him, but up to that point the only thing Harry had said to was 1. Meet me. 2. You're an Uncle/I'm a dad 3. We're on a clock. That "anything" makes it sound like "Why should I care?". That may be a misinterpretation on my part, but Thomas just can't be trusted when it comes down to it (McCoy is right: vampire!) and I bet it'll come up sooner or later.
Don't think people are going to go from "Magic? Nut job." to creating offices dealing with it.
Unless shit goes down majorly and we get a time jump. Or I guess the next book, maybe...
That's what we seem to be talking about. The whole "last three books = you know what" leads me to think the cat will be well out of the bag at some point in the series.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Don't think people are going to go from "Magic? Nut job." to creating offices dealing with it.
Unless shit goes down majorly and we get a time jump. Or I guess the next book, maybe...
That's what we seem to be talking about. The whole "last three books = you know what" leads me to think the cat will be well out of the bag at some point in the series.
The last page of book #19 is Harry finishing off some huge, epic piece of magic to save the world. He then turns and sees news-station helicopters in the distance, already filming.
The last line is: "Well," I said. "This is awkward."
I get the feeling that most of the world superpowers knows at least a little of the magical world. There was a case earlier in the books of evidence "disappearing".
mixed modern/supernatural units going toe to toe on the fields of conflict.
Monoc Securities is already in that role, I'm sure they have at least one competitor. I would expect that if the mundane world does find out, that the reaction will be fairly close to mundane world shooting at anything that looks even a little supernatural. It's plausible that the "good guys" would have enough sense to look mundane while around the general public if that happens, but I'm not sure how Dresden would handle things if he was thrust into the middle of an Outsider/Army fight.
Ok, I take that back, I am sure how Harry would handle it. I'm not sure how McCoy or Rashad or the Wardens would handle that situation. Harry would probably continue with his current trend of thinking a half step ahead at most and proceed to cover Outsiders in burning, freezing death.
edit: And, yeah, book 19 definitely concludes with the mundane world catching wind of the supernatural world coming off its hinges.
True, but again, much of that is hinted at or appears offscreen.
I will agree that we do see some of it, such as Michael's wife making armour lined with kevlar and the various 'thugs' who have to rise to the occasion. And we did also have the cluster-fuck underneath the Raith estates (automatic weapons for everyone!). That was pretty badass. And almost anytime Murphy has to step up to the plate.
Not arguing it doesn't happen, just think it'd be awesome to see more of it, but with a concession that what I desire might begin to broach a change in genre entirely, so I can respect that it may have to remain in the realm of "wouldn't it be awesome if??" rather than hard plot points and setpieces.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Been reading random theories on the official forums... What do you guys think of the theory that Cowl is actually
Simon Petrovich, who faked his own death?
On one hand, I think that'd be a disappointing because Simon was basically a throwaway name who never got a second of "camera time". On the other hand, I'll take anything over than the "Harry from an alternate universe or time travel" theory.
Been reading random theories on the official forums... What do you guys think of the theory that Cowl is actually
Simon Petrovich, who faked his own death?
On one hand, I think that'd be a disappointing because Simon was basically a throwaway name who never got a second of "camera time". On the other hand, I'll take anything over than the "Harry from an alternate universe or time travel" theory.
I've thought that pretty much since his first appearance.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Been reading random theories on the official forums... What do you guys think of the theory that Cowl is actually
Simon Petrovich, who faked his own death?
On one hand, I think that'd be a disappointing because Simon was basically a throwaway name who never got a second of "camera time". On the other hand, I'll take anything over than the "Harry from an alternate universe or time travel" theory.
I prefer Cowl as current Merlin. It seems somewhat less likely than your first suggestion, but much more fun. That said, if Cowl is going to be someone in disguise, he's going to be someone who has had a part worth mentioning before. Someone who gets two or three sentences in one book isn't it.
Been reading random theories on the official forums... What do you guys think of the theory that Cowl is actually
Simon Petrovich, who faked his own death?
On one hand, I think that'd be a disappointing because Simon was basically a throwaway name who never got a second of "camera time". On the other hand, I'll take anything over than the "Harry from an alternate universe or time travel" theory.
I prefer Cowl as current Merlin. It seems somewhat less likely than your first suggestion, but much more fun. That said, if Cowl is going to be someone in disguise, he's going to be someone who has had a part worth mentioning before. Someone who gets two or three sentences in one book isn't it.
I'm still betting
Justin Dumorne returns at some point. Whether he is Cowl or not Im not sure about speculating on, but I just have a feeling he might have survived.
Also re: Toot from earlier
It's pretty obvious why he's getting bigger, and its because he is getting more well known, and more influential. That is apparently everything to Fae from what we've read. He has become leader of an army, known by many humans, and hell, now he is head of the Winter Knight's honor guard basically.
Cowl is either senior council or someone as powerful as them who is hiding themselves or their power.
It's not Justin though, that's just silly.
He's the one that fits. He's evil enough, we've heard of him before, he has the right knowledge, he has good reason to hide and he has no better methods. Everyone else I can think of fails at least one of those. Well, except for alternate universe/time travelling Harry. But I refuse to accept that option.
But then we start getting into George RR Martin territory- nobody dies/stays dead. We've never seen Merlin and Cowl in the same place and it would explain why Cowl is so strong...Guess we'll find out. Maybe.
But then we start getting into George RR Martin territory- nobody dies/stays dead. We've never seen Merlin and Cowl in the same place and it would explain why Cowl is so strong...Guess we'll find out. Maybe.
Everything Cowl is trying to do, the Merlin could do trivially. Cowl does a lot of really behind the scenes work, the Merlin would just need to have a few people on the White Council do for him (with the caveat that they shouldn't tell other people about it because secret mission or something).
Not to mention that the Merlin and some of the Outsider's other puppets seem to be working at cross purposes, and we distinctly get the impression that Cowl works for the Outsiders.
Also, if I recall correctly we don't know for sure that Justin did die. Harry thinks he killed him, but how much does a panicky 16 year old know about throwing fire around? Sure, the White Council also thinks he killed him but I wouldn't call their judgement reliable.
I'd hope there's a federal-level equivalent of Special Investigations at least, and they've picked up Agent Tilly from Changes. My real hope is that at some point Dresden goes up against the government conspiracies that assist in keeping the supernatural secret and finds out it all goes deeper than he thinks- the UN Security Council is a secret signatory to the Unseelie Accords, the US military has an "Esoteric Operations Command", all kinds of crazyness.
I was mostly joking with Merlin. But then who knows. Harry could be the original Merlin, he could be Cowl, he could dreaming all this! And what happened to Cowl's sidekick Kwhatever...I just re-read this too and can't recall! So who could SHE be/have been...
I was mostly joking with Merlin. But then who knows. Harry could be the original Merlin, he could be Cowl, he could dreaming all this! And what happened to Cowl's sidekick Kwhatever...I just re-read this too and can't recall! So who could SHE be/have been...
Merlin is actually one of the folks I had considered for Cowl. There's a relatively small set of heavy hitters who a) aren't dead and b) have gotten enough screen time to feel possible for Cowl. Most of the senior Wardens are on that list, as are most of the White Council. Any bad guys that we don't have bodies for (or equivalent evidence) are also up for grabs. Timeline check: could it have been the clerk, or had he fled by that point?
As far as the sidekick goes ... I think they're just a step above minion. Basically, bad ass enough to get a name. Not so bad ass that they come up again. I could be wrong though.
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Something that kind of strikes me is this: do we see the best and brightest of the Winter Court mucking about in the mortal realm, or are they generals fighting the outsiders? It seems to me that the mortal muckers are either the rejects of the war or heroes who have earned some extended leave until recalled (I'm thinking the Erlking may be in this category.) The Red Hood is just a small time thug with a hang up about headwear, for example.
Imagine how hard core the Fae are that hold the line day in and day out for centuries.
edit:
I expect that you get the more politically able Fae in court and dealing with the mortals, those who can't handle coordinated battle, or those who simply don't have the power to handle a fight like that. Red Cap Sr strikes me as in both the second and third groups. Some of his minions are only in group 2, the rest in 2 and 3. I suspect most of the folks at the party fall into the political group. My feeling is that the Gates are a permanent assignment, without substantial leave.
As far as the Erlking goes, he's wild fae isn't he?[/quote]
In one of the books there's a situation with luccio and the merlin where they go into the laws.
The laws aren't about good or evil. They are about restraining power. There is a limited effect you can have on the mortal world if you follow the laws.
If you bind them to a morality, then whose morals are followed. Eventually it ends up with the white council civil war and rampant abuses of magic. The mortal world enslaved by wizards and such. Turns out, some of the older wizards have seen some bad stuff from when the laws weren't enforced
There have been a few key characters who are moving into positions of greater and greater mundane power, so if that uprising was ever needed I think soon enough it could actually happen.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
"What the hell is 'white phosphorous and discarding SABOT'?"
"... let me put it this way; be in another ZIP code."
Proven Guilty spoilers
Molly is an example of how to get away from it.
Also, there is the other definition of black magic that Moridin889 mentioned, which is more about limiting power than about applying morality. The catch is that different people seem to use black magic differently. Harry seems to be much closer to the side of motive and free will matter whereas the white council clearly doesn't care a lot about motive so long as there's no unauthorized power creep. But both seem to call those things black magic.
We did already have
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Which may be the single most awesome thing that anyone in the Dresden Files has done so far. It's a tough call between that and Harry's big awesome thing that he did at the end of Dead Beat.
Something like that could be an interesting progression; something big enough going down that the 'mundane' world catches wind and has to deal with it (or at least buy time for 'the professionals' to step in), overwhelming military force applied, general (if limited) success, further battles go awry, both sides are forced to adapt, and suddenly there are mixed modern/supernatural units going toe to toe on the fields of conflict.
Of course, that then extrapolates into the government eventually following Marcone's approach to things, which might become large scale enough to perhaps change the very genre of the series, so I guess we shouldn't expect things to get too batshit crazy in that regard.
Unless shit goes down majorly and we get a time jump. Or I guess the next book, maybe...
Also, Thomas is a huge dick right here (Changes onward spoilers):
That's what we seem to be talking about. The whole "last three books = you know what" leads me to think the cat will be well out of the bag at some point in the series.
The last page of book #19 is Harry finishing off some huge, epic piece of magic to save the world. He then turns and sees news-station helicopters in the distance, already filming.
The last line is: "Well," I said. "This is awkward."
Ok, I take that back, I am sure how Harry would handle it. I'm not sure how McCoy or Rashad or the Wardens would handle that situation. Harry would probably continue with his current trend of thinking a half step ahead at most and proceed to cover Outsiders in burning, freezing death.
edit: And, yeah, book 19 definitely concludes with the mundane world catching wind of the supernatural world coming off its hinges.
I will agree that we do see some of it, such as Michael's wife making armour lined with kevlar and the various 'thugs' who have to rise to the occasion. And we did also have the cluster-fuck underneath the Raith estates (automatic weapons for everyone!). That was pretty badass. And almost anytime Murphy has to step up to the plate.
Not arguing it doesn't happen, just think it'd be awesome to see more of it, but with a concession that what I desire might begin to broach a change in genre entirely, so I can respect that it may have to remain in the realm of "wouldn't it be awesome if??" rather than hard plot points and setpieces.
On one hand, I think that'd be a disappointing because Simon was basically a throwaway name who never got a second of "camera time". On the other hand, I'll take anything over than the "Harry from an alternate universe or time travel" theory.
I've thought that pretty much since his first appearance.
I'm still betting
Also re: Toot from earlier
It's not Justin though, that's just silly.
Also, if I recall correctly we don't know for sure that Justin did die. Harry thinks he killed him, but how much does a panicky 16 year old know about throwing fire around? Sure, the White Council also thinks he killed him but I wouldn't call their judgement reliable.
As far as the sidekick goes ... I think they're just a step above minion. Basically, bad ass enough to get a name. Not so bad ass that they come up again. I could be wrong though.