I must confess I haven't been paying much attention to the leader's race. In my defense, my girlfriend has moved back to town, so I've been spending more time with her and less time reading the papers. Plus, nothing major happened on that front over the past few months.
I welcome a thread to keep me informed of and debate politics.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited September 2006
I heard something vague about one of the candidates being involved in a funding scandal?
Anyone know what happened?
Man, if it's true, the Liberal party is doing the Conservative's work for them.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
Xbox - PearlBlueS0ul, Steam
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
My money is on Dion. There's the whole unwritten convention of alternating anglophone/francophone leaders, as well as Dion being the only francophone federalist with any significant support in Quebec. Ignatieff has early front runner syndrome, and I'm pretty certain he'll lose on the last ballot. Rae, however much I love the NDP, will not be elected leader. Ontario is too vital for the Liberals, and they can't exactly afford to lose it because of the leader's provincial baggage. I hope he comes to his senses and puts his support behind Dion.
Interesting - story in the Toronto Star today is saying that a leaked Conservative Party memo has Ignatieff as the potential candidate they are most worried about. As much as I like him, I don't really see how the Conservatives can fear him that much - sure he will bring back a lot of those Liberals who voted Conservative last time, but I don't see him as being all too likely to attract those who defected to the NDP.
That's exactly why the Conservatives are worried about him. He'll take away a chunk of Conservative voters and bring them back to the Liberal party.
The NDP has no chance of taking power, with or without the left-wing Liberal voters. It's between the Conservatives and Liberals, and those right-wing Liberals could make the difference between a Conservative government and a Liberal government.
I would not listen to a word the Star has to say. It and all other TorStar papers are ridiculously left-wing (to the same extent that the Post used to be right, not as much anymore though). I'm not, but if I WERE one of Harper's "unnamed" aides, I'd go straight to the Star and say "we're worried about Ignatieff."
Seriously. Why?
Well, basically, he's already on record in the Globe and Mail 7-page spread they did on him as saying that if he doesn't win, he's going to give up politics. He's in it for pure ego-stroking, and I think it will be easy to show that. Quebec doesn't care what the IQ of the PM is, so long as they represent Quebec's interests. There is nothing to suggest that IGnatieff, who would be the first non-Quebecois Liberal Leader in who knows how long, would stand up for Quebec. Newsflash: Conservatives aren't necessarily getting themselves turfed out of Quebec like the Liberals did in the election. You need someone to convince those who now believe that Federalism is best represented by a Conservative vote that the Liberals are back in the business of pandering to Quebec - electing Ignatieff sends all the wrong signals on that front.
It's funny, about Bob Rae. People forget that he lost to a very conservative Mike Harris HANDILY. The 905-Liberal-Belt won't vote for Rae again - it wasn't just economic factors taht got him tossed out, his was a scandal-plagued government. Most importantly, though, if it's been done once, the Conservative movement in Canada can easily beat Rae again. Mike Harris is still kicking around somewhere (Fraser Institute I think) as is his campaign team, just a phonecall away.
It's funny, you know. Nationally, the Liberals are becoming more and more reliant on the cities and Quebec to keep them in power. But those cities are gradually turning into conservative breeding grounds, since as those cities and burbs get bigger do you think they're building up or out? I'll tell you: out. Burbs don't promote environmentally-friendly living in any sense of the phrase.
In the end, the Liberal party is actually the Conservative Canadian party, because it represents the status quo like nothing else in this country does. The only issue that separates them and the Tories is same-sex stuff, and government really has no place in that business and that means smaller government - naturally a Tory cause.
I vote green, and will again at the next election. Because in all honesty, I'd rather vote for my hopes than my fears, and that's all the Liberals seem to do.
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The National Post is no longer right-wing? I dunno, it's been almost a year since I read it. I gave it up after its "why the US is more democratic than Canada" five-day piece.
The Toronto Star, I've never felt it was left-wing in its reporting. I often double-check with other sources, such as CBC or BBC, and I normally find that the Star got all the facts right. They also provide background information in their pieces, such as legal precedent or the resolution of past similar situation, which I like a lot.
Their editorial section, though? oh boy. Some of their editorial cartoons are borderline libel.
The Toronto Star is not left wing. That's just absurd.
Well, basically, he's already on record in the Globe and Mail 7-page spread they did on him as saying that if he doesn't win, he's going to give up politics. He's in it for pure ego-stroking, and I think it will be easy to show that. Quebec doesn't care what the IQ of the PM is, so long as they represent Quebec's interests. There is nothing to suggest that IGnatieff, who would be the first non-Quebecois Liberal Leader in who knows how long, would stand up for Quebec. Newsflash: Conservatives aren't necessarily getting themselves turfed out of Quebec like the Liberals did in the election. You need someone to convince those who now believe that Federalism is best represented by a Conservative vote that the Liberals are back in the business of pandering to Quebec - electing Ignatieff sends all the wrong signals on that front.
It's funny, about Bob Rae. People forget that he lost to a very conservative Mike Harris HANDILY. The 905-Liberal-Belt won't vote for Rae again - it wasn't just economic factors taht got him tossed out, his was a scandal-plagued government. Most importantly, though, if it's been done once, the Conservative movement in Canada can easily beat Rae again. Mike Harris is still kicking around somewhere (Fraser Institute I think) as is his campaign team, just a phonecall away.
Which is why Dion will take it.
It's funny, you know. Nationally, the Liberals are becoming more and more reliant on the cities and Quebec to keep them in power. But those cities are gradually turning into conservative breeding grounds, since as those cities and burbs get bigger do you think they're building up or out? I'll tell you: out. Burbs don't promote environmentally-friendly living in any sense of the phrase.
Conservative breeding grounds? Are you insane? The Tories didn't win a single seat in the three largest urban areas of the country. The only cities they won were in Alberta, and those, like Montreal for the Liberals, are the safest Tory seats around.
In the end, the Liberal party is actually the Conservative Canadian party, because it represents the status quo like nothing else in this country does. The only issue that separates them and the Tories is same-sex stuff, and government really has no place in that business and that means smaller government - naturally a Tory cause.
The Liberal Party is the 'status quo' because they've governed for most of the last century. Same-sex marriage is merely on tiny aspect of social policy that the Tories and the Grits disagree on. They are also incredibly far apart on the enviroment, and foreign policy. There are real fundamental differences between the parties. But that really doesn't matter to me, because there is no way in hell I'll vote for either of them.
I vote green, and will again at the next election.
I'm actually thinking about joining the federal Green Party. Elizabeth May rocks my world, and the NDP have no hope of ever governing (that, and I fucking hate Carole James, the provincial leader of the NDP in BC), so I'm finding myself drawn more and more toward the green cause. We'll see, though, I'm not going to make a decision just yet.
Ignatieff will likely win, though Dion probably has a chance as well. I just think that Ignatieff will be more effective in turning the Liberals back into a party that is capable of governing.
So this new Green party leader... is she a far leftie, or similar to the outgoing Harris?
Part of media bias is choice of language. And yes, the Star is a Liberal paper. My stepmother works in their accounting department, do you know TorStar's catch phrase or corporate motto or whatever it's actuall called? It's something like "to expose and investigate social injustice around the world."
In any case: I am from Toronto originally. The core of it is and will remain liberal. But the burbs of cities are where all the growth is happening population wise (other than places like Fort McMurray and Barrie). Those burbs are not where socially liberal attitudes - towards anything, but especially environment - are bred.
The Liberals are closer to the Conservatives than you think. The Liberals like to harp on this because now we'll never know, but there was no way for us to meet Kyoto targets. We are doing worse than the Americans in that respect. Chretien was quick to sign the agreement, but he didn't *do* anything. Martin didn't either, and Harper isn't.
Foreign Policy wise they are identical AFAIConcerned. It's classic Liberal publicity: run from the left, govern from the right. Of the two main issues - Afghanistan and the Softwood deal - the Liberals started one of them, and couldn't solve the other. I think the Liberals could have easily gotten the deal Harper got, but they didn't want to get it - posturing, in the end.
In the end, I don't think the PC and Liberals are all that different as most knee-jerk Liberals or Tories think. You're right in why the Liberals are the status quo, but that doens't excuse them for being a conservative force in society. That's what I mean when I say conservative (as opposed to Conservative, referring to the party). An unwillingness to change. I can see where it's going, and I don't want to be here in 20 years, in the prime of my life, paying for the previous generation's short-sighted mistakes.
strakha_7 on
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Part of media bias is choice of language. And yes, the Star is a Liberal paper. My stepmother works in their accounting department, do you know TorStar's catch phrase or corporate motto or whatever it's actuall called? It's something like "to expose and investigate social injustice around the world.
How does that make them liberal exactly?
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Now that Martin has received the boot - its time for the Liberals to get their act into gear, and kick Harper and his Bush babies out of the freakin Parliament.
For those who don't know, it's a reference to the Volpe campaign recruitment drive, which was so successful it actually managed to recruit a number of dead people.
I kind of like Kennedy from what little I know of him. It's unfortunate that the two front-runners are who they are; Rae's got too much baggage in Ontario, and Ignatief is a god-damned condescending douchebag. Did anyone catch his interview with Evan Solomon a little while back?
A friend of mine is there at the convention as a delegate. I asked him to get me Dryden's autograph.
I don't get why so much hate gets directed Ignatief's way. He was out of the country for 30 years. Yeah, getting a worldly education, starting civil society movements, producing highly regarded research and teaching at prestigious institutions. He sure must hate Canada. :roll:
Considering how globalization is pushing the world closer and closer together in every respect possible, it might not be such a bad idea to have someone who has been around the block running things. Besides, he probably wouldn't win a majority government next election anyhow. There'd most likely be another minority, and he'd be forced to build alliances across party lines to get things done. Personally, I'm hoping that either him or Dion wins it. I'd really like to see an academic in charge for a bit.
I don't get why so much hate gets directed Ignatief's way. He was out of the country for 30 years. Yeah, getting a worldly education, starting civil society movements, producing highly regarded research and teaching at prestigious institutions. He sure must hate Canada. :roll:
1) Support for the Iraq War. I don't care if he doesn't support it now, it was pretty obviously a retarded idea in the beginning too. If I can see a clusterfuck coming before you can, you don't get my vote.
2) Support for torture, infinite detention, assasination, pre-emptive wars, et al. No. Just, No.
3) Incredibly condescending in interviews. Did you see that shit with Solomon, or at the very least the clips on the Mercer Report? This isn't a man who can sell himself well to the public.
Well, there's also the complaint about him supporting the Iraq war - though I buy his explanation that what he supports as a private citizen would differ from what he would support as an elected official/Prime Minister. Plus he's pretty clear on considering the whole thing a mess now.
Dion is sounding more and more like the candidate who's going to pull it off though.
You're not a delegate, are you, Andrew_Jay? Because I just saw on the CBC some youth delegate from Ontario named Andrew talking about how he might vote on the second ballot.
I read in The Star today how back when Paul Martin Sr. was around and still in politics, everyone was expecting him to take over the Liberal Party but an unknown (at the time) Pierre Trudeau took over, and well, we all know how that turned out.
In the same segment it said Joe Clark was a relative unknown when he took control of the Conservatives.
I guess it's just a little retrospective which suggests that we shouldn't assume Ignatief or Rae will definetly take control of the party. Not that there has been any widespread belief in these forums that either of them will definitly take the leadership, but I think there has been more of that in the media.
Does anyone have the results for the first ballot yet?
Yup. Iggy's in first with 29.3%, Rae's in second with 20.3%, and Dion and Kennedy are virtually tied for third with 17.8% and 17.7%, respectivly. The Globe has an article on it here, and a live blog on the happenings here.
Does anyone have the results for the first ballot yet?
Yup. Iggy's in first with 29.3%, Rae's in second with 20.3%, and Dion and Kennedy are virtually tied for third with 17.8% and 17.7%, respectivly. The Globe has an article on it here, and a live blog on the happenings here.
Ignatief plateauing under 30% is hopefully a sign that he won't make the cut.
Ignatief plateauing under 30% is hopefully a sign that he won't make the cut.
HERESY! The man is this country's Lord and Saviour, AND YOU WILL KNEEL TO HIM!!!
Well, it's not a good sign. As the Globe article mentioned, that's about the same number of votes he got a month or so back. Stagnation is never a good sign. Though it could be the case that some of his supporters abstained from voting. On the first ballot that's the only option delegates have, apart from voting for who they're supposed to, and I heard that someone was circulating fliers saying that if you weren't sure about your candidate that you should abstain. Supposedly this was directed at Iggy.
Posts
I welcome a thread to keep me informed of and debate politics.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Anyone know what happened?
Man, if it's true, the Liberal party is doing the Conservative's work for them.
Why? I mean, she's a nutjob who had no chance of winning.
I think you just answered your own question there.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
You should get yourself elected as a delegate and give the PA boards first-hand coverage of the convention.
That's exactly why the Conservatives are worried about him. He'll take away a chunk of Conservative voters and bring them back to the Liberal party.
The NDP has no chance of taking power, with or without the left-wing Liberal voters. It's between the Conservatives and Liberals, and those right-wing Liberals could make the difference between a Conservative government and a Liberal government.
Unfortunately, he'd end up pushing a large segment of right-of-centre liberals to vote for the Cons instead. Can't have that again.
Seriously. Why?
Well, basically, he's already on record in the Globe and Mail 7-page spread they did on him as saying that if he doesn't win, he's going to give up politics. He's in it for pure ego-stroking, and I think it will be easy to show that. Quebec doesn't care what the IQ of the PM is, so long as they represent Quebec's interests. There is nothing to suggest that IGnatieff, who would be the first non-Quebecois Liberal Leader in who knows how long, would stand up for Quebec. Newsflash: Conservatives aren't necessarily getting themselves turfed out of Quebec like the Liberals did in the election. You need someone to convince those who now believe that Federalism is best represented by a Conservative vote that the Liberals are back in the business of pandering to Quebec - electing Ignatieff sends all the wrong signals on that front.
It's funny, about Bob Rae. People forget that he lost to a very conservative Mike Harris HANDILY. The 905-Liberal-Belt won't vote for Rae again - it wasn't just economic factors taht got him tossed out, his was a scandal-plagued government. Most importantly, though, if it's been done once, the Conservative movement in Canada can easily beat Rae again. Mike Harris is still kicking around somewhere (Fraser Institute I think) as is his campaign team, just a phonecall away.
It's funny, you know. Nationally, the Liberals are becoming more and more reliant on the cities and Quebec to keep them in power. But those cities are gradually turning into conservative breeding grounds, since as those cities and burbs get bigger do you think they're building up or out? I'll tell you: out. Burbs don't promote environmentally-friendly living in any sense of the phrase.
In the end, the Liberal party is actually the Conservative Canadian party, because it represents the status quo like nothing else in this country does. The only issue that separates them and the Tories is same-sex stuff, and government really has no place in that business and that means smaller government - naturally a Tory cause.
I vote green, and will again at the next election. Because in all honesty, I'd rather vote for my hopes than my fears, and that's all the Liberals seem to do.
The Toronto Star, I've never felt it was left-wing in its reporting. I often double-check with other sources, such as CBC or BBC, and I normally find that the Star got all the facts right. They also provide background information in their pieces, such as legal precedent or the resolution of past similar situation, which I like a lot.
Their editorial section, though? oh boy. Some of their editorial cartoons are borderline libel.
Which is why Dion will take it.
Conservative breeding grounds? Are you insane? The Tories didn't win a single seat in the three largest urban areas of the country. The only cities they won were in Alberta, and those, like Montreal for the Liberals, are the safest Tory seats around.
The Liberal Party is the 'status quo' because they've governed for most of the last century. Same-sex marriage is merely on tiny aspect of social policy that the Tories and the Grits disagree on. They are also incredibly far apart on the enviroment, and foreign policy. There are real fundamental differences between the parties. But that really doesn't matter to me, because there is no way in hell I'll vote for either of them.
I'm actually thinking about joining the federal Green Party. Elizabeth May rocks my world, and the NDP have no hope of ever governing (that, and I fucking hate Carole James, the provincial leader of the NDP in BC), so I'm finding myself drawn more and more toward the green cause. We'll see, though, I'm not going to make a decision just yet.
So this new Green party leader... is she a far leftie, or similar to the outgoing Harris?
In any case: I am from Toronto originally. The core of it is and will remain liberal. But the burbs of cities are where all the growth is happening population wise (other than places like Fort McMurray and Barrie). Those burbs are not where socially liberal attitudes - towards anything, but especially environment - are bred.
The Liberals are closer to the Conservatives than you think. The Liberals like to harp on this because now we'll never know, but there was no way for us to meet Kyoto targets. We are doing worse than the Americans in that respect. Chretien was quick to sign the agreement, but he didn't *do* anything. Martin didn't either, and Harper isn't.
Foreign Policy wise they are identical AFAIConcerned. It's classic Liberal publicity: run from the left, govern from the right. Of the two main issues - Afghanistan and the Softwood deal - the Liberals started one of them, and couldn't solve the other. I think the Liberals could have easily gotten the deal Harper got, but they didn't want to get it - posturing, in the end.
In the end, I don't think the PC and Liberals are all that different as most knee-jerk Liberals or Tories think. You're right in why the Liberals are the status quo, but that doens't excuse them for being a conservative force in society. That's what I mean when I say conservative (as opposed to Conservative, referring to the party). An unwillingness to change. I can see where it's going, and I don't want to be here in 20 years, in the prime of my life, paying for the previous generation's short-sighted mistakes.
How does that make them liberal exactly?
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
hehehehe
For those who don't know, it's a reference to the Volpe campaign recruitment drive, which was so successful it actually managed to recruit a number of dead people.
Goddammit. Stupid Ignatieff. What's his appeal, anyway? He's been out of the country for 30+ years.
I don't get why so much hate gets directed Ignatief's way. He was out of the country for 30 years. Yeah, getting a worldly education, starting civil society movements, producing highly regarded research and teaching at prestigious institutions. He sure must hate Canada. :roll:
Considering how globalization is pushing the world closer and closer together in every respect possible, it might not be such a bad idea to have someone who has been around the block running things. Besides, he probably wouldn't win a majority government next election anyhow. There'd most likely be another minority, and he'd be forced to build alliances across party lines to get things done. Personally, I'm hoping that either him or Dion wins it. I'd really like to see an academic in charge for a bit.
2) Support for torture, infinite detention, assasination, pre-emptive wars, et al. No. Just, No.
3) Incredibly condescending in interviews. Did you see that shit with Solomon, or at the very least the clips on the Mercer Report? This isn't a man who can sell himself well to the public.
You're not a delegate, are you, Andrew_Jay? Because I just saw on the CBC some youth delegate from Ontario named Andrew talking about how he might vote on the second ballot.
In the same segment it said Joe Clark was a relative unknown when he took control of the Conservatives.
I guess it's just a little retrospective which suggests that we shouldn't assume Ignatief or Rae will definetly take control of the party. Not that there has been any widespread belief in these forums that either of them will definitly take the leadership, but I think there has been more of that in the media.
Yup. Iggy's in first with 29.3%, Rae's in second with 20.3%, and Dion and Kennedy are virtually tied for third with 17.8% and 17.7%, respectivly. The Globe has an article on it here, and a live blog on the happenings here.
HERESY! The man is this country's Lord and Saviour, AND YOU WILL KNEEL TO HIM!!!
Well, it's not a good sign. As the Globe article mentioned, that's about the same number of votes he got a month or so back. Stagnation is never a good sign. Though it could be the case that some of his supporters abstained from voting. On the first ballot that's the only option delegates have, apart from voting for who they're supposed to, and I heard that someone was circulating fliers saying that if you weren't sure about your candidate that you should abstain. Supposedly this was directed at Iggy.
We're used to it. We do it all the time with american elections.