Ok let's talk about identical rocks instead of people then.
Stop being the engineer. It's a philisophical scenario. Not even my philosophical scenario, this thing's been around for a long while and is intended to serve as a thought exercise, not a serious question.
Let's bring in time travel and Tony Carver and just blow the whole damn thing up
I've got a good feeling about this Secret-Department-of-History storyline.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Hey, people are having an impassioned discussion about a philosophical issue raised by a webcomic. I like it a lot! Please continue and don't let anyone tell you it "has nothing to do with webcomics", because obviously the discussion started there! Discussions rule, wannabe-mods drool!
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Strictly speaking, if someone dies and a perfect replacement is created with memories et all then it's like they never died at all.
However, as soon as you get into the concept of what sentience is, or even the possibility of a soul, then things become murky very quickly.
Maybe it is like they never died for everyone else observing the death from the outside, but what about the from the perspective of the person who died? Their consciousness didn't move into the new copy of themselves unless there's something really magical going on. They just ceased to be, and a stranger who is quite certain they are the dead person began living in their place.
True, but that's introducing unneeded variables into a simple scenario, because this is before consciousness, sentience, and/or souls even enter the picture. This is someone dying and then poof they're in a new body for all they're aware. They can see the corpse that died, they have the memory of death, but here they are. Do they consider themselves the same person or determine they're just a copy and the true self died then? What if this wasn't the first death? Like I said, it's when the other three things enter the scenario that things get messy in a hurry.
It's not unneeded variables, the whole point is that the person who died didn't poof over to the new body. To everyone else including the perfect copy of you it is functionally the same as you not being dead, but that's small comfort to you, since you are dead and don't get to experience continuing to exist.
I'm too lazy to do it, but someone draw a line, then erase the middle, and write "OH MY GOD I WAS SLEEPING AND THEREFORE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AM I THE SAME PERSON?!?!?!?!"
Then go "WHERE DO THESE TWO LINES INTERSECT?!"
Your brain is still active while you're asleep though, even if you don't dream. Continuity of consciousness is not broken by sleeping, by being knocked unconscious, or by the slow and inevitable process of replacing every cell in your brain with news cells. In all of these scenarios your brain is continuously functioning and your consciousness is continuous, even if you're not actively aware of. Only confusing thing is when you have brain death but come back. There's a break in your conscious mind, but it's the same brain and tissue and everything. I honestly don't know then. We don't know enough about consciousness for me to have a strong stance one way or the other.
Lord_Asmodeus on
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I don't think I can discuss this as intelligently as some of yous, because it seems like you have book larnin' about philosophy, while I really don't.
But I think personally that if you make a copy of a machine, it's not the same as either twins or clones of a human, even if the machine happens to be sentient. An exact copy of a sentient robot would be like meeting yourself from one second ago if you had an extremely precise time machine.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Hey, people are having an impassioned discussion about a philosophical issue raised by a webcomic. I like it a lot! Please continue and don't let anyone tell you it "has nothing to do with webcomics", because obviously the discussion started there! Discussions rule, wannabe-mods drool!
Seriously I'm so sick of these backdoor implications that if people keep discussing a topic they are going to get this thread locked. That has never been true. As someone who was deeply involved in the Time Travel thing it didn't get the thread banned. Us being assholes got the thread banned.
So lets all just be cool to each other and civil and everything will work out.
nightmarenny on
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
Armello is a really good game, and I've sunk way too much time into it the past 4 days.
@A steak! i'm sorry to ping you for something so trivial but can you tell me how many players can play at once in Armello multiplayer? google returns nothing of relevance; judging from the 4-pack offered it seems like 4 would be the logical answer but i'd like to be certain since my group of friends is larger than that
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Cultural differences[edit]
In Japan, Shinto shrines are rebuilt every twenty years with entirely "new wood". The continuity over the centuries is spiritual and comes from the source of the wood in the case of the Ise Jingu's Naiku shrine, which is harvested from an adjoining forest that is considered sacred. The shrine has currently been rebuilt sixty-two times.[17] Where the traditional Greek discussions struggle is between two defined identities of the physical structure, the Shinto thought places the identity differently, and the argument vanishes.[original research?]
Although I wonder what the shrine's opinion would be, if you asked it how it felt about being burned down every 20 years.
This is fascinating. Do they update their style of building when more modern/sturdy building methods are learned, or are the people who are taught specifically to build in an ancient style so that the temple is exactly the same every time?
Edit: Sorry, I see now you culled that from Wikipedia so you probably don't know. I'll google myself later, I gotta go to bed now.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Strictly speaking, if someone dies and a perfect replacement is created with memories et all then it's like they never died at all.
However, as soon as you get into the concept of what sentience is, or even the possibility of a soul, then things become murky very quickly.
Maybe it is like they never died for everyone else observing the death from the outside, but what about the from the perspective of the person who died? Their consciousness didn't move into the new copy of themselves unless there's something really magical going on. They just ceased to be, and a stranger who is quite certain they are the dead person began living in their place.
True, but that's introducing unneeded variables into a simple scenario, because this is before consciousness, sentience, and/or souls even enter the picture. This is someone dying and then poof they're in a new body for all they're aware. They can see the corpse that died, they have the memory of death, but here they are. Do they consider themselves the same person or determine they're just a copy and the true self died then? What if this wasn't the first death? Like I said, it's when the other three things enter the scenario that things get messy in a hurry.
It's not unneeded variables, the whole point is that the person who died didn't poof over to the new body. To everyone else including the perfect copy of you it is functionally the same as you not being dead, but that's small comfort to you, since you are dead and don't get to experience continuing to exist.
I'm too lazy to do it, but someone draw a line, then erase the middle, and write "OH MY GOD I WAS SLEEPING AND THEREFORE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AM I THE SAME PERSON?!?!?!?!"
Then go "WHERE DO THESE TWO LINES INTERSECT?!"
Your brain is still active while you're asleep though, even if you don't dream. Continuity of consciousness is not broken by sleeping, by being knocked unconscious, or by the slow and inevitable process of replacing every cell in your brain with news cells. In all of these scenarios your brain is continuously functioning and your consciousness is continuous, even if you're not actively aware of. Only confusing thing is when you have brain death but come back. There's a break in your conscious mind, but it's the same brain and tissue and everything. I honestly don't know then. We don't know enough about consciousness for me to have a strong stance one way or the other.
Lucid dreaming alone helps demonstrate that consciousness continues while sleeping. Granted once you actually realize you're dreaming that tends to kickstart the brain and the dream ends. Anyways, before I forget.
TOWER OF GOD
Chapter 4
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Strictly speaking, if someone dies and a perfect replacement is created with memories et all then it's like they never died at all.
However, as soon as you get into the concept of what sentience is, or even the possibility of a soul, then things become murky very quickly.
Maybe it is like they never died for everyone else observing the death from the outside, but what about the from the perspective of the person who died? Their consciousness didn't move into the new copy of themselves unless there's something really magical going on. They just ceased to be, and a stranger who is quite certain they are the dead person began living in their place.
True, but that's introducing unneeded variables into a simple scenario, because this is before consciousness, sentience, and/or souls even enter the picture. This is someone dying and then poof they're in a new body for all they're aware. They can see the corpse that died, they have the memory of death, but here they are. Do they consider themselves the same person or determine they're just a copy and the true self died then? What if this wasn't the first death? Like I said, it's when the other three things enter the scenario that things get messy in a hurry.
It's not unneeded variables, the whole point is that the person who died didn't poof over to the new body. To everyone else including the perfect copy of you it is functionally the same as you not being dead, but that's small comfort to you, since you are dead and don't get to experience continuing to exist.
I'm too lazy to do it, but someone draw a line, then erase the middle, and write "OH MY GOD I WAS SLEEPING AND THEREFORE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AM I THE SAME PERSON?!?!?!?!"
Then go "WHERE DO THESE TWO LINES INTERSECT?!"
Your brain is still active while you're asleep though, even if you don't dream. Continuity of consciousness is not broken by sleeping, by being knocked unconscious, or by the slow and inevitable process of replacing every cell in your brain with news cells. In all of these scenarios your brain is continuously functioning and your consciousness is continuous, even if you're not actively aware of. Only confusing thing is when you have brain death but come back. There's a break in your conscious mind, but it's the same brain and tissue and everything. I honestly don't know then. We don't know enough about consciousness for me to have a strong stance one way or the other.
Lucid dreaming alone helps demonstrate that consciousness continues while sleeping. Granted once you actually realize you're dreaming that tends to kickstart the brain and the dream ends. Anyways, before I forget.
Well, that and all the brain scans they've done of sleeping and unconscious people which shows continuous mental activity :P
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
I don't think I can discuss this as intelligently as some of yous, because it seems like you have book larnin' about philosophy, while I really don't.
It helps that even people who are experts and have studied this sort of thing for years don't know much about conciousness. Some claim to have an answer, others claim to other answers. I'm not sure that we can find a satisfactory answer, but it's fun to speculate about.
Strictly speaking, if someone dies and a perfect replacement is created with memories et all then it's like they never died at all.
However, as soon as you get into the concept of what sentience is, or even the possibility of a soul, then things become murky very quickly.
Maybe it is like they never died for everyone else observing the death from the outside, but what about the from the perspective of the person who died? Their consciousness didn't move into the new copy of themselves unless there's something really magical going on. They just ceased to be, and a stranger who is quite certain they are the dead person began living in their place.
True, but that's introducing unneeded variables into a simple scenario, because this is before consciousness, sentience, and/or souls even enter the picture. This is someone dying and then poof they're in a new body for all they're aware. They can see the corpse that died, they have the memory of death, but here they are. Do they consider themselves the same person or determine they're just a copy and the true self died then? What if this wasn't the first death? Like I said, it's when the other three things enter the scenario that things get messy in a hurry.
It's not unneeded variables, the whole point is that the person who died didn't poof over to the new body. To everyone else including the perfect copy of you it is functionally the same as you not being dead, but that's small comfort to you, since you are dead and don't get to experience continuing to exist.
I'm too lazy to do it, but someone draw a line, then erase the middle, and write "OH MY GOD I WAS SLEEPING AND THEREFORE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS AM I THE SAME PERSON?!?!?!?!"
Then go "WHERE DO THESE TWO LINES INTERSECT?!"
Your brain is still active while you're asleep though, even if you don't dream. Continuity of consciousness is not broken by sleeping, by being knocked unconscious, or by the slow and inevitable process of replacing every cell in your brain with news cells. In all of these scenarios your brain is continuously functioning and your consciousness is continuous, even if you're not actively aware of. Only confusing thing is when you have brain death but come back. There's a break in your conscious mind, but it's the same brain and tissue and everything. I honestly don't know then. We don't know enough about consciousness for me to have a strong stance one way or the other.
Lucid dreaming alone helps demonstrate that consciousness continues while sleeping. Granted once you actually realize you're dreaming that tends to kickstart the brain and the dream ends. Anyways, before I forget.
Well, that and all the brain scans they've done of sleeping and unconscious people which shows continuous mental activity :P
That too. My brain's probably showing low output at the moment so I think I'll be headed to bed to recharge. I don't usually reach the "I think gooder" stage until at least 11:30 normally.
You guys know that brain cells aren't actually replaced every seven years, unlike every other cell in our body? I'm pretty sure you keep the brain cells you're born with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroregeneration
ps the real answer to the exact clone blah blah blah consciousness thing is that you aren't even maintaining any sort of continuity from moment to moment because time is, fundamentally, an illusion. Your perfect clone copy is just as different from you as you from a microsecond ago.
“Next I wyll speak on the Ymps, or Blue Devyls. Ymps are flymsy of Body but possesseth a Tongue most vyle and skylfull in the Art. The Blue Devyl possesseth Skin of nyght-hue, hyr Mask is royal, and hyr Blood is ebon. Ymps have a certyn Fondness for Lyquor and Vyce that suiteth a crafty Sum’ner well should he wysh to gayn Employment of these Fiends.”
– Thulsa Drulle’s Daemoniac Maleficum
yes, but from people who use it as a stylus I get the impression it's not excessively good
I've been drawing the more recent pages of my comic with it, it's not too bad.
Wacom has it's own problems, like the cursor not lining up with the tip of the pen at times, especially if you come close to the corners of the screen.
Next thing I'll try will be Yiynova, which is said to have the best pressure response of them all.
Thunderstruck may be putting a little too much faith in a coin toss.
Psyche knows you should always put sunglasses on when making a dramatic statement to someone who doesn't know you or what you're talking about. It's the done thing.
Every Planck time, your consciousness dies and is replaced with a fresh one. You don't notice it because you only have the perspective of the most recent one, with memories built up from the old ones, and continuity of consciousness is just an illusion.
So don't be afraid of dying in the teleporter, because you die about 1.85 x 10^43 times per second already.
Posts
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Stop being the engineer. It's a philisophical scenario. Not even my philosophical scenario, this thing's been around for a long while and is intended to serve as a thought exercise, not a serious question.
Your brain is still active while you're asleep though, even if you don't dream. Continuity of consciousness is not broken by sleeping, by being knocked unconscious, or by the slow and inevitable process of replacing every cell in your brain with news cells. In all of these scenarios your brain is continuously functioning and your consciousness is continuous, even if you're not actively aware of. Only confusing thing is when you have brain death but come back. There's a break in your conscious mind, but it's the same brain and tissue and everything. I honestly don't know then. We don't know enough about consciousness for me to have a strong stance one way or the other.
But I think personally that if you make a copy of a machine, it's not the same as either twins or clones of a human, even if the machine happens to be sentient. An exact copy of a sentient robot would be like meeting yourself from one second ago if you had an extremely precise time machine.
Seriously I'm so sick of these backdoor implications that if people keep discussing a topic they are going to get this thread locked. That has never been true. As someone who was deeply involved in the Time Travel thing it didn't get the thread banned. Us being assholes got the thread banned.
So lets all just be cool to each other and civil and everything will work out.
@A steak! i'm sorry to ping you for something so trivial but can you tell me how many players can play at once in Armello multiplayer? google returns nothing of relevance; judging from the 4-pack offered it seems like 4 would be the logical answer but i'd like to be certain since my group of friends is larger than that
This is fascinating. Do they update their style of building when more modern/sturdy building methods are learned, or are the people who are taught specifically to build in an ancient style so that the temple is exactly the same every time?
Edit: Sorry, I see now you culled that from Wikipedia so you probably don't know. I'll google myself later, I gotta go to bed now.
Lucid dreaming alone helps demonstrate that consciousness continues while sleeping. Granted once you actually realize you're dreaming that tends to kickstart the brain and the dream ends. Anyways, before I forget.
TOWER OF GOD
Chapter 4
Well, that and all the brain scans they've done of sleeping and unconscious people which shows continuous mental activity :P
That too. My brain's probably showing low output at the moment so I think I'll be headed to bed to recharge. I don't usually reach the "I think gooder" stage until at least 11:30 normally.
Edit: Thank you, Geth.
TL;DR memories are holographic, kind of a whole-brain deal. If they cut a chunk of your brain there are no specific memories located there.
http://www.powernapcomic.com
hth
Blindsprings
YUP YUP YES THIS IS ALL MY SHIT RIGHT HERE
www.superredundant.com
www.twogag.com
www.sinfest.net
Tatsuya Ishida is just *sniffle* so... so brave
Wacom has it's own problems, like the cursor not lining up with the tip of the pen at times, especially if you come close to the corners of the screen.
Next thing I'll try will be Yiynova, which is said to have the best pressure response of them all.
Thunderstruck may be putting a little too much faith in a coin toss.
Psyche knows you should always put sunglasses on when making a dramatic statement to someone who doesn't know you or what you're talking about. It's the done thing.
Stand Still Stay Silent
can we all just take a moment of our day to acknowledge the superiority of cio's fashion choices
also shit I'm actually going to have to contribute to the k6bd patreon aren't i
For some reason I have it in my head that a largely rural society wouldn't have much opportunity for lernin'
Beret is about the politics of the Art world
Steam // Secret Satan
So don't be afraid of dying in the teleporter, because you die about 1.85 x 10^43 times per second already.