This is how I once ended up with a skinhead for a cape instead of a doormat.
I do not know what this sentence means.
Also, yes, you can defend yourself if you get attacked according to tort law. The entire point of tort law is to make it so the violence doesn't happen in the first place by punishing the aggressor.
I got cornered in a hallway my junior year, and I was told that a certain person and 5 of his closest friends were going to be waiting for me after school to kick the hell out of me. So I bounced his head off of the brick wall about 5 times until he quit resisting.
I then got suspended for a week, and almost got sent to jail until someone finally came forward and admitted to hearing what was said. If they hadn't, I'd have probably had to pay for some ER bills and spent the next 6 months in juvenile hall. Then until the day I graduated, I was threatened with expulsion every time I was suspected of doing absolutely anything. Previously I had not had anything more than a couple detentions, and no criminal record.
That's not the point, though. The point is that if children are taught to go running to authority figures every time anything happens, they will never learn to deal with their own problems.
No offense, but Jesus Christ.
If I turned a corner and saw one person "bouncing" another's "head off of a brick wall," I'd sure as hell call the cops because that description sounds to me like a crime is being committed. I assume this other person was resisting somehow, which means you could have caused some serious injuries. To be honest, I think you got off light for not at least having to pay for the other person's medical evaluation.
Maybe appeals to authority are being over/mis-used, but authorities are there for a reason, which is ostensibly to protect people from the unlawful and harmful actions of others.
Well, you deserved to pay that kid's medical bills.
There is something to be said about fighting with honor.
If he was capable of fighting off 5 attackers with knives and making them run away in terror, he would have had no reason to carry a gun.
I highly suspect either you or he is just making shit up.
Life is not a movie.
You are not always going to be able to fight off five guys who are better armed than you.
Or even one.
Especially if they pack a piece, too. Which many did.
Well then I guess that would be an instance of calling an authority figure that wouldn't be wussy overkill, if someone would've called the cops and said "There are fucking hoodlums with fucking guns in my fucking school."
Compare this to an elementary school that I went to. I told a kid that if he didn't stop doing whatever he was doing to annoy me (I think it was knocking my pencil off my desk or something...but definitely something he had no right to be doing) I was going to punch him. He didn't stop. I punched him in the face in the middle of class.
Upon reaching the principal's office, I explained why I hit him. The principal asked the other kid if I had indeed said that. He confirmed. The principal told him then maybe he should have thought twice before doing it again, and I got in no real trouble.
See, that's what I'm saying though -- acting an ass does occasionally have consequences in the real world, sometimes violent consequences. If you go around acting like a jack-ass in the streets, you might end up getting worked over by some cops. People need to know shit like this. I've definitely met some kids who just never faced any kind of real discipline in their life and were insufferable, and as imperfect as it may be, sometimes that discipline needs to come from your peers.
And of course there were bullies who just beat the shit out of people because they were violent pricks, but you know what? You need to learn how to deal with that shit yourself, as well. Going to the teacher, fighting them yourself, asking for help from older kids -- there's a whole range of solutions -- but I don't think the solution should always be to instantly get the powers-that-be on your side and sit smugly while you're absolved of any wrongdoing in the situation, when really you might have been a provocative little ass cruising for an ass kicking.
My high school life was very violent. We constantly had fights with neighboring high schools and whatnot, especially during sports events. They hated us because we were a private school, and you couldn't step out of school grounds by yourself without being taunted by public school kids for being a rich prude. The situations that resulted usually weren't pretty.
I've been involved in quite a few such confrontations, some of them violent. In the end though, it taught me one thing: getting in a fight hurts, even if you "win". So I eventually learned how to avoid fights. How to dissolve unfriendly situations. How to make friends with even the most hostile person. How to resolve conflicts between other people.
The thing is, if I had gone to authority figures every time I had a problem, perhaps I would have saved myself the hurting I received and saved the other kids the hurting they received. At the same time though, I wouldn't have become the self-reliant individual that I am today, and I would probably have gotten into way more serious fights that would have resulted in far more serious injuries. Either that, or I would have had to take everything in like a fucking pansy because there is no authority figure nearby to help me out.
Ege: How many kids do you honestly think can solve a problem involving a pack of bullies twice their size?
In my dad's day, the answer was carrying a gun to class.
The type of people that carry guns to class are the wusses that I referred to in the OP. They are not well adjusted individuals. What time period was your dad in school?
It was 1998 when I was first beat up for having the wrong color skin. When I went to teachers I had no proof and my parents told me to stop being a wuss and fight back. Fuck if I know how a thirteen year old loner is supposed to fight off three other guys.
If I turned a corner and saw one person "bouncing" another's "head off of a brick wall," I'd sure as hell call the cops because that description sounds to me like a crime is being committed. You said this other person was resisting somehow, which means you had to overcome that resistance and therefore could have caused some serious injuries. To be honest, I think you got off light for not at least having to pay for the other person's medical evaluation.
Maybe appeals to authority are being over/mis-used, but authorities are there for a reason, which is ostensibly to protect people from the unlawful and harmful actions of others.
See if I had seen that I probably would have jumped in.
Which, of course, is the second major concern of policing high school violence. If more than 5 or 6 kids get involved (which really isn't too difficult) you have the potential for a really disastrous situation to develop, and most schools won't have the means to police such a large bruhaha. That's a pretty compelling reason to nip it in the bud, so I understand the administration's POV in the whole thing. I think I'm more upset about the situations where they just blindly throw the book at them afterwards -- that's going too far.
Here's what I learned for the too many fights I've been in: Don't let them see you coming, and keeping hitting until they cry. I mean, it's great that some of you want to overthink the great life lessons you'll get out of that, but there aren't any.
I think there's a certain magic I'd appreciate if some dumb-asses had gotten punched in the goddamn jaw or something like that when acting like assholes. I definitely learned from my peers at a young age that certain behaviors really weren't cool, because if you did it, you'd get your ass kicked.
The actual fights? Yeah, they're forgettable. But having a reason to come to blows is somewhat worthwhile.
I'm actually reminded of the on-going fighting debate in hockey -- should it still be allowed to be there -- and personally I think one of the ways the NHL has degraded is by curbing fighting, thus allowing the cheap shot artists and dirty little hacks get away with more than they should.
The point of our fights was to fight. And prove that you can beat the shit out of the other guy. Which is what eventually happens if you have a permissive attitude about fighting.
Well, it's positive in that I never got threatened again. So yes, I would consider it an absolute success.
Here's another example for you.
Tommy: Billy you smell like doo-doo.
Billy: Teacher! Teacher! Billy said I smell like doo-doo!
Teacher: Tommy that's very very bad.
Tommy: I'm sorry, Billy.
And then if Billy continues being thin skinned and running to an authority figure every time he feels bad, how will he cope with say, an asshole boss? A bitchy neighbor?
Well, your solution of punching the kid in the face sure as hell sure as hell won't work with your boss because you are gonna get fired, or with your neighbor because you are going to jail.
But I don't see why telling the teacher is a bad thing. It is a nonviolent response, and it gets the other kid to shut up.
When you get a bitchy neighbor, you can learn to ignore her, or have an argument with her I guess. With an asshole boss you can learn to ignore him or quit. Or, report him to his boss if he is doing something truly wrong. I don't see how going to a teacher prevents you from doing any of these things.
Alternatively: You'd be more pleasant to associate with. :P People who grow up in extreme violence tend to be really frustrating to deal with, especially in arguments. Violence tends to stick with you, and words only work with so many people.
It was 1998 when I was first beat up for having the wrong color skin. When I went to teachers I had no proof and my parents told me to stop being a wuss and fight back. Fuck if I know how a thirteen year old loner is supposed to fight off three other guys.
It must have been nice having only three guys trying to make you shit yourself. :P
Alternatively: You'd be more pleasant to associate with. :P People who grow up in extreme violence tend to be really frustrating to deal with, especially in arguments. Violence tends to stick with you, and words only work with so many people.
Well, in my defense, I'm a pretty awesome guy in real life. It's just that the online world brings out the worst in me.
I eventually learned how to avoid fights. How to dissolve unfriendly situations. How to make friends with even the most hostile person. How to resolve conflicts between other people.
All things that nobody can learn without getting the crap beaten out of them.
Well, it's positive in that I never got threatened again. So yes, I would consider it an absolute success.
Here's another example for you.
Tommy: Billy you smell like doo-doo.
Billy: Teacher! Teacher! Billy said I smell like doo-doo!
Teacher: Tommy that's very very bad.
Tommy: I'm sorry, Billy.
And then if Billy continues being thin skinned and running to an authority figure every time he feels bad, how will he cope with say, an asshole boss? A bitchy neighbor?
Well, your solution of punching the kid in the face sure as hell sure as hell won't work with your boss because you are gonna get fired, or with your neighbor because you are going to jail.
But I don't see why telling the teacher is a bad thing. It is a nonviolent response, and it gets the other kid to shut up.
When you get a bitchy neighbor, you can learn to ignore her, or have an argument with her I guess. With an asshole boss you can learn to ignore him or quit. Or, report him to his boss if he is doing something truly wrong. I don't see how going to a teacher prevents you from doing any of these things.
Are you really that dense? When did I ever say everything should be solved with violence? I said that kids should learn to stick up for themselves. I never said that always involved punching someone in the face. Maybe Billy could've talked it over with Tommy. Maybe Billy could've just distanced himself from Tommy. There are a whole plethora of possibilities yet you're still dead set on violence.
Please, point out where I said that Billy should've kicked Tommy's ass. The whole point is kids dealing with shit themselves when applicable.
Slamming some kid's head against the wall is positive somehow? Jesus dude.
Yeah, go to a fucking teacher. Why is that somehow bad? It stops violence. I mean my god you could have killed the kid or given him brain damage. We want to avoid that kind of shit.
Give me an example that doesn't involve violence, because I'm not thinking of any. Like, there is nothing wrong with getting in an argument or debate. Kids do that all the time. They don't always run for an authority figure.
This thread is basically "Waah I'm a tough guy but I cannot act tough, they are taking my manliness!"
Well, it's positive in that I never got threatened again. So yes, I would consider it an absolute success.
Here's another example for you.
Tommy: Billy you smell like doo-doo.
Billy: Teacher! Teacher! Billy said I smell like doo-doo!
Teacher: Tommy that's very very bad.
Tommy: I'm sorry, Billy.
And then if Billy continues being thin skinned and running to an authority figure every time he feels bad, how will he cope with say, an asshole boss? A bitchy neighbor?
Better solution:
Teacher punishes Tommy for being a dick then punishes Billy slightly less for not being able to take care of the situation himself. This isn't really a solution for grade school children though because grade school children are idiots.
Going to the teacher, fighting them yourself, asking for help from older kids -- there's a whole range of solutions -- but I don't think the solution should always be to instantly get the powers-that-be on your side and sit smugly while you're absolved of any wrongdoing in the situation, when really you might have been a provocative little ass cruising for an ass kicking.
Maybe it's just me, but with very few extreme exceptions I see the choice to engage in violence as always being a worse choice than trying to provoke something. That's not to say that words don't have power too, but what it fundamentally comes down to is ethical self-control: no matter what someone says or does to you, you simply do NOT have an inherent right to treat that person in turn if there's an accessible, viable alternative, i.e. an authority figure.
This is why the legal system recognizes the need for people to be able to defend themselves in an emergency, when no immediate assistance from law enforcement is possible, but that self-defense also has limits and it's up to officially-recognized law enforcement officials to mediate disputes. Remember that vigilantism isn't allowed, even if Batman makes it cool.
The point of our fights was to fight. And prove that you can beat the shit out of the other guy. Which is what eventually happens if you have a permissive attitude about fighting.
Well yeah, there's a middle ground. I think mainly I'd just say the zero-tolerance policy is crap, but then again encouraging it isn't good, either. But like many people have said, one of the things you learn once you fight is that all that macho posturing really doesn't mean shit -- you get hurt, it sucks, and even if you "win" odds are you'd rather not have gotten into the fight in the first place.
So there's a give and take.
But I definitely think having been in a fight or two is one of the better deterrents to fighting.
I eventually learned how to avoid fights. How to dissolve unfriendly situations. How to make friends with even the most hostile person. How to resolve conflicts between other people.
All things that nobody can learn without getting the crap beaten out of them.
Personal experience is the best teacher.
There are a lot of things that you can try to hammer into a person's head and they won't listen, until they personally experience the situation and see how right you were.
When was the last time any of you guys went to highschool? It's bad enough that it's full of assholes, but these days highschools and even elementary schools are filled with kids who know that if they act like total dicks and mess with your shit there is nothing you can do about it.
Back in seventh grade, there was this kid who had these two really stupid lackeys who would laugh at his jokes and follow him around. I've never been a slim guy, but back then I was much bigger than my other classmates so I became a target to these twerps. Everyday they'd make comments, shove me when no one was looking, and go into my stuff and deface it. Any time I retaliated my teacher would yell at me and I'd get in shit because she'd see what I'd done and not what they'd done and I had no proof.
It literally got to the point where I approached the principal and vice-principal, with my mother present, and told them: if you do not get these guys to stop I am going to hurt them. I will attack these guys directly. I fucking threatened them. They told me they'd handle it, and any action like that would warrant a suspension at least. They did nothing. The pests kept at it until one day I started pushing, kicking, and punching them whenever no one was looking. Sometimes I'd do that unprovoked. They stopped bothering me.
You will always encounter people who use the system to their advantage, fucking with the honest guys and being assholes. Back in the day that shit wasn't tolerated, but nowadays when the victim is stripped of his right to defend himself, predatory jackasses like the guys who bothered me are out there smiling.
Are you really that dense? When did I ever say everything should be solved with violence? I said that kids should learn to stick up for themselves. I never said that always involved punching someone in the face. Maybe Billy could've talked it over with Tommy. Maybe Billy could've just distanced himself from Tommy. There are a whole plethora of possibilities yet you're still dead set on violence.
Please, point out where I said that Billy should've kicked Tommy's ass. The whole point is kids dealing with shit themselves when applicable.
All of your solutions prior to this post involved violence. I kind of inferred. Sorry.
Wait I mean you are a jerk I better PM a mod or something, I don't even know. I mean do kids really not argue anymore? Do they not work shit out? I don't know anyone who would go to an authority figure at the smallest sign of trouble.
I still maintain that the entire point of this thread is you complaining about not being able to punch people that piss you off.
All of your solutions prior to this post involved violence. I kind of inferred. Sorry.
Wait I mean you are a jerk I better PM a mod or something, I don't even know. I mean do kids really not argue anymore? Do they not work shit out? I don't know anyone who would go to an authority figure at the smallest sign of trouble.
I still maintain that the entire point of this thread is you complaining about not being able to punch people that piss you off.
Well, I'm going to ignore the feeling that you're simply trolling and try to calmly elaborate on this for you.
My solutions prior to that involved violence because they were in reply to posts involving violence.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
The point of our fights was to fight. And prove that you can beat the shit out of the other guy. Which is what eventually happens if you have a permissive attitude about fighting.
Well yeah, there's a middle ground. I think mainly I'd just say the zero-tolerance policy is crap, but then again encouraging it isn't good, either. But like many people have said, one of the things you learn once you fight is that all that macho posturing really doesn't mean shit -- you get hurt, it sucks, and even if you "win" odds are you'd rather not have gotten into the fight in the first place.
So there's a give and take.
But I definitely think having been in a fight or two is one of the better deterrents to fighting.
There is no middle ground. How you would implement something else? Sure, "he started it" but how should a teacher know that? No, we don't have that policy in our legal system, but unless we're going to give every kid a lawyer after each fight to figure out who was wrong and who was right, I say a zero-tolerance policy is the best.
Well, I'm going to ignore the feeling that you're simply trolling and try to calmly elaborate on this for you.
My solutions prior to that involved violence because they were in reply to posts involving violence.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
Well, I'm going to ignore the feeling that you're simply trolling and try to calmly elaborate on this for you.
My solutions prior to that involved violence because they were in reply to posts involving violence.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
What do you even mean by "toughen up"?
Not go cry to an authority figure every time something doesn't go their way, would be the simplest definition.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
Don't worry about it. The good ol' days sucked bad for anyone who wasn't ready to fight. Not wanting to fight isn't a bad thing and if it means you have to go to authority figures when some dick decides he won't let you use the slide unless you fight him the wonderful. You're only assuming that this is causing children to go to teachers with every little problem but I see very little evidence of that.
I eventually learned how to avoid fights. How to dissolve unfriendly situations. How to make friends with even the most hostile person. How to resolve conflicts between other people.
All things that nobody can learn without getting the crap beaten out of them.
Personal experience is the best teacher.
There are a lot of things that you can try to hammer into a person's head and they won't listen, until they personally experience the situation and see how right you were.
And you can experience unfriendly situations and learn dissolve them without fighting?
i think a point many people are missing is that not all fights are equal.
a scuffle between kids that ends up with a few bruises is something that i think most kids should experience. in that, i agree with the op.
i went to military school and i've hurt people pretty bad (given people severe concussions, broken bones, fractured skull, nearly cut a guy's thumb off). ive been hurt pretty bad as well. personally, i don't think anyone should ever have to go through similar experiences and i regret every one of mine.
the problem is, due to escalation, scuffling could become serious, permanent injury. even kids dont "just fight" anymore. they try hard to seriously hurt each other. in elementary school, a friend's kid nearly got his throat crushed by another kid's boot. he nearly lost his son from a stupid fight in elementary school.
while i sympathize somewhat with what the op is saying, i simply cant agree. many children are not capable of judging what is an appropriate level of force. as such, i think we should continue to encourage them to seek authority when threatened with violence, even if some "creativity" or "independence" is sacrificed. id rather sacrifice some minor amount of independence than my friend's son.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
Don't worry about it. The good ol' days sucked bad for anyone who wasn't ready to fight. Not wanting to fight isn't a bad thing and if it means you have to go to authority figures when some dick decides he won't let you use the slide unless you fight him the wonderful. You're only assuming that this is causing children to go to teachers with every little problem but I see very little evidence of that.
Really? There were kids who'd do that all the time where I grew up.
Why is 'sticking up for yourself' synonymous with punching someone? I don't understand.
Apparently all children are supposed to be equipped with cutting remarks that completely disarm the three guys who have a foot and fifty pounds over them. Each.
--
Oh, and FYI: The Good Ol' Days were often because kids formed gangs.
All the weaker people would hide behind the badasses for protection.
The pests kept at it until one day I started pushing, kicking, and punching them whenever no one was looking. Sometimes I'd do that unprovoked. They stopped bothering me.
This is exactly how I respond to those type of people. First attempt to resolve it peacefully, then instill fear into their wretched, pathetic souls. ;-)
I prefer ignoring them/using body language to illustrate that they do not frighten me.
Why is 'sticking up for yourself' synonymous with punching someone? I don't understand.
I think this is a good point.
I've been in quite a few confrontations in my life, and I was able to avoid a fight simply because I showed the other person - with my body language and attitude - that if he attacked me, I'd be no easy target.
Hell, I was cornered by three guys once, and I was able to make them back off simply by sticking my chest forward and increasing the volume of my voice.
A lot of the times the other person will leave you alone if they see you're going to defend yourself. Bullies generally look for easy targets.
And you do become an easy target by crying to the superintendent every time someone empties your lunch box on the floor.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
Don't worry about it. The good ol' days sucked bad for anyone who wasn't ready to fight. Not wanting to fight isn't a bad thing and if it means you have to go to authority figures when some dick decides he won't let you use the slide unless you fight him the wonderful. You're only assuming that this is causing children to go to teachers with every little problem but I see very little evidence of that.
Really? There were kids who'd do that all the time where I grew up.
Me too. There were also a lot more who talked things out, reached an uneasy peace, or just flat out ignored each other rather than fight. The only fight in my high school that wasn't between gangs was the first day of class between two freshmen. Every time. It's kind of odd really.
Not go cry to an authority figure every time something doesn't go their way, would be the simplest definition.
I don't think people do this.
I mean, in your "poo poo" example, what do you deem to be the appropriate response? You've already ruled out punching the kid, or going to a teacher. So, what, learn to ignore the kid? I'm pretty sure that's what most kids do when they get insulted. Insult the kid back and hope it doesn't escalate? What?
Posts
Well, you deserved to pay that kid's medical bills.
There is something to be said about fighting with honor.
Well then I guess that would be an instance of calling an authority figure that wouldn't be wussy overkill, if someone would've called the cops and said "There are fucking hoodlums with fucking guns in my fucking school."
And of course there were bullies who just beat the shit out of people because they were violent pricks, but you know what? You need to learn how to deal with that shit yourself, as well. Going to the teacher, fighting them yourself, asking for help from older kids -- there's a whole range of solutions -- but I don't think the solution should always be to instantly get the powers-that-be on your side and sit smugly while you're absolved of any wrongdoing in the situation, when really you might have been a provocative little ass cruising for an ass kicking.
It's basically a ghetto with Sprawl.
Though the cops were very familiar with him.
I've been involved in quite a few such confrontations, some of them violent. In the end though, it taught me one thing: getting in a fight hurts, even if you "win". So I eventually learned how to avoid fights. How to dissolve unfriendly situations. How to make friends with even the most hostile person. How to resolve conflicts between other people.
The thing is, if I had gone to authority figures every time I had a problem, perhaps I would have saved myself the hurting I received and saved the other kids the hurting they received. At the same time though, I wouldn't have become the self-reliant individual that I am today, and I would probably have gotten into way more serious fights that would have resulted in far more serious injuries. Either that, or I would have had to take everything in like a fucking pansy because there is no authority figure nearby to help me out.
Which, of course, is the second major concern of policing high school violence. If more than 5 or 6 kids get involved (which really isn't too difficult) you have the potential for a really disastrous situation to develop, and most schools won't have the means to police such a large bruhaha. That's a pretty compelling reason to nip it in the bud, so I understand the administration's POV in the whole thing. I think I'm more upset about the situations where they just blindly throw the book at them afterwards -- that's going too far.
The point of our fights was to fight. And prove that you can beat the shit out of the other guy. Which is what eventually happens if you have a permissive attitude about fighting.
But I don't see why telling the teacher is a bad thing. It is a nonviolent response, and it gets the other kid to shut up.
When you get a bitchy neighbor, you can learn to ignore her, or have an argument with her I guess. With an asshole boss you can learn to ignore him or quit. Or, report him to his boss if he is doing something truly wrong. I don't see how going to a teacher prevents you from doing any of these things.
It must have been nice having only three guys trying to make you shit yourself. :P
Well, in my defense, I'm a pretty awesome guy in real life. It's just that the online world brings out the worst in me.
All things that nobody can learn without getting the crap beaten out of them.
Are you really that dense? When did I ever say everything should be solved with violence? I said that kids should learn to stick up for themselves. I never said that always involved punching someone in the face. Maybe Billy could've talked it over with Tommy. Maybe Billy could've just distanced himself from Tommy. There are a whole plethora of possibilities yet you're still dead set on violence.
Please, point out where I said that Billy should've kicked Tommy's ass. The whole point is kids dealing with shit themselves when applicable.
Teacher punishes Tommy for being a dick then punishes Billy slightly less for not being able to take care of the situation himself. This isn't really a solution for grade school children though because grade school children are idiots.
Maybe it's just me, but with very few extreme exceptions I see the choice to engage in violence as always being a worse choice than trying to provoke something. That's not to say that words don't have power too, but what it fundamentally comes down to is ethical self-control: no matter what someone says or does to you, you simply do NOT have an inherent right to treat that person in turn if there's an accessible, viable alternative, i.e. an authority figure.
This is why the legal system recognizes the need for people to be able to defend themselves in an emergency, when no immediate assistance from law enforcement is possible, but that self-defense also has limits and it's up to officially-recognized law enforcement officials to mediate disputes. Remember that vigilantism isn't allowed, even if Batman makes it cool.
So there's a give and take.
But I definitely think having been in a fight or two is one of the better deterrents to fighting.
Personal experience is the best teacher.
There are a lot of things that you can try to hammer into a person's head and they won't listen, until they personally experience the situation and see how right you were.
None of them should feel the need to prove it when there's an alternative.
Back in seventh grade, there was this kid who had these two really stupid lackeys who would laugh at his jokes and follow him around. I've never been a slim guy, but back then I was much bigger than my other classmates so I became a target to these twerps. Everyday they'd make comments, shove me when no one was looking, and go into my stuff and deface it. Any time I retaliated my teacher would yell at me and I'd get in shit because she'd see what I'd done and not what they'd done and I had no proof.
It literally got to the point where I approached the principal and vice-principal, with my mother present, and told them: if you do not get these guys to stop I am going to hurt them. I will attack these guys directly. I fucking threatened them. They told me they'd handle it, and any action like that would warrant a suspension at least. They did nothing. The pests kept at it until one day I started pushing, kicking, and punching them whenever no one was looking. Sometimes I'd do that unprovoked. They stopped bothering me.
You will always encounter people who use the system to their advantage, fucking with the honest guys and being assholes. Back in the day that shit wasn't tolerated, but nowadays when the victim is stripped of his right to defend himself, predatory jackasses like the guys who bothered me are out there smiling.
Wait I mean you are a jerk I better PM a mod or something, I don't even know. I mean do kids really not argue anymore? Do they not work shit out? I don't know anyone who would go to an authority figure at the smallest sign of trouble.
I still maintain that the entire point of this thread is you complaining about not being able to punch people that piss you off.
Well, I'm going to ignore the feeling that you're simply trolling and try to calmly elaborate on this for you.
My solutions prior to that involved violence because they were in reply to posts involving violence.
The point of this thread is that I'm genuinely concerned about the world my nephews are going to grow up in, and I'm afraid that if the current trend continues they won't ever learn to stick up for themselves because of everyone who tries to say it's wrong. I'm afraid that if people aren't forced to toughen up, they will never become well adjusted and rational individuals.
There is no middle ground. How you would implement something else? Sure, "he started it" but how should a teacher know that? No, we don't have that policy in our legal system, but unless we're going to give every kid a lawyer after each fight to figure out who was wrong and who was right, I say a zero-tolerance policy is the best.
Not go cry to an authority figure every time something doesn't go their way, would be the simplest definition.
And you can experience unfriendly situations and learn dissolve them without fighting?
a scuffle between kids that ends up with a few bruises is something that i think most kids should experience. in that, i agree with the op.
i went to military school and i've hurt people pretty bad (given people severe concussions, broken bones, fractured skull, nearly cut a guy's thumb off). ive been hurt pretty bad as well. personally, i don't think anyone should ever have to go through similar experiences and i regret every one of mine.
the problem is, due to escalation, scuffling could become serious, permanent injury. even kids dont "just fight" anymore. they try hard to seriously hurt each other. in elementary school, a friend's kid nearly got his throat crushed by another kid's boot. he nearly lost his son from a stupid fight in elementary school.
while i sympathize somewhat with what the op is saying, i simply cant agree. many children are not capable of judging what is an appropriate level of force. as such, i think we should continue to encourage them to seek authority when threatened with violence, even if some "creativity" or "independence" is sacrificed. id rather sacrifice some minor amount of independence than my friend's son.
Really? There were kids who'd do that all the time where I grew up.
Apparently all children are supposed to be equipped with cutting remarks that completely disarm the three guys who have a foot and fifty pounds over them. Each.
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Oh, and FYI: The Good Ol' Days were often because kids formed gangs.
All the weaker people would hide behind the badasses for protection.
I never said it was.
Sticking up for yourself can simply mean telling someone to fuck off. It can mean a lot of things, that have nothing at all to do with fighting.
This is exactly how I respond to those type of people. First attempt to resolve it peacefully, then instill fear into their wretched, pathetic souls. ;-)
I prefer ignoring them/using body language to illustrate that they do not frighten me.
I think this is a good point.
I've been in quite a few confrontations in my life, and I was able to avoid a fight simply because I showed the other person - with my body language and attitude - that if he attacked me, I'd be no easy target.
Hell, I was cornered by three guys once, and I was able to make them back off simply by sticking my chest forward and increasing the volume of my voice.
A lot of the times the other person will leave you alone if they see you're going to defend yourself. Bullies generally look for easy targets.
And you do become an easy target by crying to the superintendent every time someone empties your lunch box on the floor.
What kind of "pussy" bullies did you have that would not hit you harder for mouthing off to them?
That part hasn't changed at all. It's not a quality unique to the Good Ol' Days. At all. Only these days these gangs are better armed and cowardly.
I mean, in your "poo poo" example, what do you deem to be the appropriate response? You've already ruled out punching the kid, or going to a teacher. So, what, learn to ignore the kid? I'm pretty sure that's what most kids do when they get insulted. Insult the kid back and hope it doesn't escalate? What?