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The Wussification of Modern Society
MrBallbaggins
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Listening to Doug Stanhope the other day, I realized he's right; we're going to be the first generation of elderly in the retirement home bitching about how kids today are fucking pussies. But, is this a problem, and if so, what is it causing?
My dad and I talk a lot, about various random things. Often the conversation turns to the old days, and sometimes I'm shocked at how much he could get away with. Maybe it's because there were fewer laws back then, maybe it's because it wasn't so socially unacceptable, but getting in to an after school fist fight back then rarely resulted in law suits or prosecution, and almost never resulted in expulsion from school. Today, very few of my friends have ever even been in a real fight. Really, few people I talk to around my age ever have. The closest to a fist fight many children will come to today is a flame war on an internet message board or AIM. Children don't stick up for themselves many times because they've learned it's much easier to go to an authority figure and ask them to fix their problems for them, and then they get a pat on the head for it.
In the 70s, school shootings were truly a rare occurrence. Suicides were not quite as rare, but neither were they as prevalent as they are today. I'm not saying they're connected to wussification, because it could never be proven, but it certainly makes me wonder. If children are never forced to toughen up for themselves, do they lose the ability to adequately cope with day-to-day life? Can they ever learn it back?
And if this is the case, what went wrong and how can it be fixed? Would encouraging children to stand up for themselves make a difference? Would abandoning the philosophies of positive reinforcement help? Is the cure as simple as a stern bitchslap every now and then?
This is not a thread to discuss school violence or suicide as anything other than their merit as symptoms of the problem. I used those two things as examples because they were the easiest ones to use. Please try to refrain from derailing it into one.
My dad and I talk a lot, about various random things. Often the conversation turns to the old days, and sometimes I'm shocked at how much he could get away with. Maybe it's because there were fewer laws back then, maybe it's because it wasn't so socially unacceptable, but getting in to an after school fist fight back then rarely resulted in law suits or prosecution, and almost never resulted in expulsion from school. Today, very few of my friends have ever even been in a real fight. Really, few people I talk to around my age ever have. The closest to a fist fight many children will come to today is a flame war on an internet message board or AIM. Children don't stick up for themselves many times because they've learned it's much easier to go to an authority figure and ask them to fix their problems for them, and then they get a pat on the head for it.
In the 70s, school shootings were truly a rare occurrence. Suicides were not quite as rare, but neither were they as prevalent as they are today. I'm not saying they're connected to wussification, because it could never be proven, but it certainly makes me wonder. If children are never forced to toughen up for themselves, do they lose the ability to adequately cope with day-to-day life? Can they ever learn it back?
And if this is the case, what went wrong and how can it be fixed? Would encouraging children to stand up for themselves make a difference? Would abandoning the philosophies of positive reinforcement help? Is the cure as simple as a stern bitchslap every now and then?
This is not a thread to discuss school violence or suicide as anything other than their merit as symptoms of the problem. I used those two things as examples because they were the easiest ones to use. Please try to refrain from derailing it into one.
MrBallbaggins on
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As for self-defense, unlike in my father's day, it's hard to go to many schools armed. He has endless stories of knife fights and pulled guns if you want to hear tell of the good ol' days. I've had weapons pulled on me as well. I find myself not unhappy my baby sister has never had a knife pointed at her face. That said, she'd karate the crap out of you if needbe.
But hey, you want the kids who can stand up for themselves?
They're called poor people and country folk. Because they don't have much of a choice.
Totally.
I'm a feminist.
Wanna fight about it?
Who isn't?
Wanna make out?
Absolutely.
He got a suspended I think.
I'm not really disappointed that this can't be pulled off anymore.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with nonviolent resolutions, I'm saying that sometimes people need to stick up for themselves and they shouldn't be afraid of going to jail because of it.
That wasn't really my point at all. My point is that the less people have to do for themselves, the less they will, and the harder it's going to be for them when there's noone to turn to to fix their problems for them.
The fighting in school was only meant to illustrate my point. I believe that people need to deal with adversity themselves sometimes to become well adjusted individuals.
I gained my sense of self-respect and bravery from Stand By Me.
No, and no.
The point he is trying to make - and one that I agree with - is that these kids aren't learning to look after themselves. Instead they are encouraged to take all their interpersonal problems to authority figures, who strong-arm both parties into an uneasy resolution that most of the time turns out to be temporary.
The thing is, when the kid grows up, runs into a problem and the authority figure is not there, they are fucked.
Also, it should be noted that it is completely possible to reach non-violent resolutions without involving an authority figure. In fact, I'd argue that that is the mature thing to do.
This is how I once ended up with a skinhead for a cape instead of a doormat.
I still believe it is a perfectly functional example, and Ege seemed to have no problem at all seeing my point.
Maybe later I'll make another one. But I see no problem with the one that's there now.
Also, yes, you can defend yourself if you get attacked according to tort law. The entire point of tort law is to make it so the violence doesn't happen in the first place by punishing the aggressor.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
It means that, rather than beat the shit out of the stupid skinhead who was trying to strangle me, I put my hands in my pockets and just kept walking while he hung off my back, and his friend punched my chest. I had the great fortune of being an extremely durable kid with largely incompetent enemies.
This is because the official stance of my high school was that self-defense was against the rules.
Schools have their own rules.
They are stupid and lame, but the fact remains.
Because they get sued if you beat up a bully.
I was having a nice chat with two co-workers today. They were talking about how when they were kids, they used to make contact explosives out of seemingly innocuous chemicals and rebuild medical testing equipment from scrap (blowing at least one transformer in the process). I have no such experiences, but we're from different generations - they're in their late 40s and I'm 30. I might have been able to get away with some of that had I wanted to, but today you'd get on a government watch list for doing that stuff. Of course, they grew up, didn't lose any fingers, and both hold doctorates in engineering today.
Now, if you have 100 kids doing what these guys did, at least one of those kids is going to lose a finger. And so the cry goes up - "is allowing children to play with dangerous chemicals and equipment worth even one child's finger?!?" And the answer is inevitably, "uh, of course not!" And what isn't immediately obvious is the little death of creativity and risk-taking that accompanies that restriction.
We are not necessarily talking about just fist fights here.
We're talking about kids being encouraged to go to authority figures when they have the smallest problem.
Their personal growth goes in the opposite direction from self-reliance.
I got cornered in a hallway my junior year, and I was told that a certain person and 5 of his closest friends were going to be waiting for me after school to kick the hell out of me. So I bounced his head off of the brick wall about 5 times until he quit resisting.
I then got suspended for a week, and almost got sent to jail until someone finally came forward and admitted to hearing what was said. If they hadn't, I'd have probably had to pay for some ER bills and spent the next 6 months in juvenile hall. Then until the day I graduated, I was threatened with expulsion every time I was suspected of doing absolutely anything. Previously I had not had anything more than a couple detentions, and no criminal record.
That's not the point, though. The point is that if children are taught to go running to authority figures every time anything happens, they will never learn to deal with their own problems.
The actual fights? Yeah, they're forgettable. But having a reason to come to blows is somewhat worthwhile.
I'm actually reminded of the on-going fighting debate in hockey -- should it still be allowed to be there -- and personally I think one of the ways the NHL has degraded is by curbing fighting, thus allowing the cheap shot artists and dirty little hacks get away with more than they should.
In my dad's day, the answer was carrying a gun to class.
To this end, I learned that I'm not ashamed to fight dirty. The high school I went to in Atlanta was pretty rough. Fights didn't mean black eyes and skinned knees for me, fights meant severe concussions and broken bones. I never saw the point of not kicking somebody in the groin when it was pretty likely they were going to get you down on the ground and just pound on you until you were unconcious. I raked eyes, I kicked in the nuts, and I ran like a bitch.
Fights aren't honorable, desirable, or necessary for anybody's development or maturity.
The type of people that carry guns to class are the wusses that I referred to in the OP. They are not well adjusted individuals. What time period was your dad in school?
I was charged with assault once because I wouldn't let some douche throw bottles at my little cousin. I laughed at the charge, because any kid with any experience in the law will know that A) for a first offense they aren't going to get shit and
I think the fear of lawsuits is more prevalent than their effective use.
Ahahaha.
Yes.
I'm sure wusses fight off five attackers, armed with knives, with their bare hands, making them run away in terror, several of whom later become murderers.
You don't bring a sword to a gunfight.
My dad was born in '51.
I'm sure I'm a wuss, too, for picking up a stick when a kid pulled a knife on me with his two buddies until they lost their nerve.
Yeah, go to a fucking teacher. Why is that somehow bad? It stops violence. I mean my god you could have killed the kid or given him brain damage. We want to avoid that kind of shit.
Give me an example that doesn't involve violence, because I'm not thinking of any. Like, there is nothing wrong with getting in an argument or debate. Kids do that all the time. They don't always run for an authority figure.
This thread is basically "Waah I'm a tough guy but I cannot act tough, they are taking my manliness!"
Everyone read this very carefully, especially the last sentence.
In some cases, yes, they are both bad things. After going through elementary and highschool, I can say without a doubt in my mind that those two things really fucked with the students I've encountered, mainly because it dramatically increases a student's dependence on authority figures.
If he was capable of fighting off 5 attackers with knives and making them run away in terror, he would have had no reason to carry a gun.
I highly suspect either you or he is just making shit up.
Life is not a movie.
You are not always going to be able to fight off five guys who are better armed than you.
Or even one.
Especially if they pack a piece, too. Which many did.
No offense, but Jesus Christ.
If I turned a corner and saw one person "bouncing" another's "head off of a brick wall," I'd sure as hell call the cops because that description sounds to me like a crime is being committed. You said this other person was resisting somehow, which means you had to overcome that resistance and therefore could have caused some serious injuries. To be honest, I think you got off light for not at least having to pay for the other person's medical evaluation.
Maybe appeals to authority are being over/mis-used, but authorities are there for a reason, which is ostensibly to protect people from the unlawful and harmful actions of others.
Well, it's positive in that I never got threatened again. So yes, I would consider it an absolute success.
Here's another example for you.
Tommy: Billy you smell like doo-doo.
Billy: Teacher! Teacher! Billy said I smell like doo-doo!
Teacher: Tommy that's very very bad.
Tommy: I'm sorry, Billy.
And then if Billy continues being thin skinned and running to an authority figure every time he feels bad, how will he cope with say, an asshole boss? A bitchy neighbor?