You saw a dark riders unit swing a game. That alone sets it apart from what would happen in most 2k point games
I'm assuming you know what I am talking about, and are just playing devil's advocate. Obviously if your entire army consists of 3 units, then any single combat where you roll poorly, or any time someone rolls well on the artillery dice, each poor roll will be much more significant, and each mass of casualties removed due to something like Hail of Doom Arrow or an organ gun will be much, much more significant.
Edit: Hail of Doom Arrow and the Treeman/treekin are pretty solid examples of what I'm talking about
For some reason I knew you would read sentence #1 and kinda gloss over the other 85% of the post, but I digress. Try addressing the part of the post where I'm not making an offhand joke about Dark Elves.
Edit: Reading echo's battle report, he attributed his loss to one failed charge
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
The Hail of Doom arrow is strange for me.
By all accounts, it should be some terribly silver bullet. But whenever I play against a WE who has it, it tends to either be the biggest non-issue due to a low shot roll, or it's used against a unit I was sacrificing anyway.
But anyway, the point where I was originally going to get to; you're missing the entire point behind why people play games at this point level. You're decrying the fact that things die quicker when it's the biggest damned draw to it.
Meanwhile, I, myself, am not that crazy about 2000+pt games for the same reasons you don't like the 1999- point games; it gives you access to units that have an exaggerated effect on the game.
I understand where you are coming from (I too, enjoy being able to play WHFB in under 2 hours, and play many small games), but short of special characters and tooled out lords most other stuff is brought more into balance in the larger games - an individual stone thrower shot, or casting of flames of the phoenix has a much smaller impact on an entire opponent's army.
Either way, I'm not really trying to create an argument so much as I am trying to show some of the players that don't have large armies that there are options that could possibly make things more entertaining for them - some of these players aren't deliberately playing small games because of time, but because of model count.
Quick edit - I was never ''decrying that things die quicker'', only that there are balance issues. In a debate, they call that a ''Strawman''
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
That's the thing, though.
Once you get to 2000pts there's the tendency to see tooled out lords and a proliferation of warmachines and giant monsters.
I mean, yeah, that shit's fun as hell, but when my only real chance to play is about 3-4 games one day every month or so, it gets kinda tiresome. Compared to say, games at 1000pts where you really can't afford to have the really awesome stuff in lieu of more bodies on the table.
And, well, below 500 it gets into warbands territory, which is a different beast altogether.
I don't have an army book handy, but in a 1000 point game I believe you can field proportionally the same amount of war machines (or more) as a 2000, but they do a higher % of your total force in terms of points damage in the smaller games. I agree with you on seeing Lords w/ alot of magic items, but it's not some sort of game-breaking scenario, if the lord is on a dragon he costs so much that a good quarter of your 2000 point list is invested in him, and he can still just be shot off the mount - either way they aren't exactly turning the whole game upside down with their power.
So from 1k to 2k, you double the points value and only gain 25% more war machines, if anything that would lead to a disproportionate # of war machines in small games.
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
It's only destabilizing because this theoretical gamer spent a third of his armies points on warmachines instead of things that would be more useful in the long run.
As opposed to the higher points brackets where you can safely fill up on these things and still have more than enough points to spend on things that can contest table quarters.
In a large game, you arent able to spend so many points one one type of thing that a 50 pt model can effectively be counted on to demolish 1/3 of your army. Really, I don't see how saying that you can buy warmachines and still be able to contest table quarters somehow shows the game is more destabilizing than a setup where you can't buy multiple warmachines because they take up an enormous portion of your force. Keep in mind, just saying "I can kill your warmachines in a 1000 point game with a 50 point unit" is not really an argument FOR small games, in fact, it doesn't even address the fact that you can have proportionally more Special choices in a smaller game than you can in a large one, which would open the door to more imbalance
Tell you what, I promise to delete it, if you promise to stop doing that thing where you hit the 'reply' button before you have formulated a response to my proposition
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
No deal!
Look, I'm not disagreeing that it'd destablizing. What I'm saying is that you CAN have a proportionally larger choice of specials and rares, but would you want to?
The point I've been trying to drive at this entire page is that you have to be ridiculously careful on where you spend those thousand points. You fill up your special and rare slots on a bunch of greatcannons and a helblaster, yes, you have something that could be decisive against pretty much anything you point it at, but you're running the risk of losing everything to a flyer or group of skirmishers, or god forbid, a misfire.
On the flipside, you can spend two slots to get a treeman and treekin, and congratulate yourself on spending half your points on four (really badass) models before even considering your compulsory core and hero choices.
Thing is, this stuff is pretty much the norm in 2000pt games. 500pts on four models? I've still got another 1500 I can spend on ranked infantry. 500 on warmachines? The same. If I lose those 500pts, it probably won't cost me the game.
Meanwhile, in 1k land, what's normally your crappy compulsory cannon-fodder core suddenly becomes one of the most important parts of your list.
I agree with you on your point in the 1000 point lists. I guess I have just found too many situations where you can take that Treeman in a 1k point game and he just steps all over the competition.
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
I would guess that those situations generally don't have an 85 point Bolt Thrower that can make a STR 7 flaming attack entered into the equation.
Basically, games lower than 2000 points and greater than 2000 points have certain draws that make them interesting. Below 2000 points you can invest heavily in certain items, but at the cost of having to make them as effective as possible, whereas in 2000+ you can buy a few Treekins or what have you and still have a competitive list that doesn't rely on them entirely.
Essentially, it comes down to factors of the investment of time, the willingness to collect the models necessary or to use proxies (your movement tray method), and personal preference.
Now, for the sake of changing the topic, anyone getting the Vampire Counts Spearhead box?
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
You guys sure read a lot into the 30% of the complete battle that I wrote here.
Not to mention that it was my first game ever. Mistakes were bound to be made. Such as me forgetting to use that extra choppa my main block of boyz had. :P
KiTA made mention in the IRC Channel that he's got one.
Yes, I got the spearhead this morning, which is amazing, since according to the website it shouldn't ship till tomorrow.
Book is nice. All the rumors were true. Vampire powers are split up via role (french-ish names for charismatic, warfare, etc) and are buy-as-you-go. The new zombies aren't shown but ALL the concept art for them has them being held together with scraps of wood and shit.
KiTA made mention in the IRC Channel that he's got one.
Yes, I got the spearhead this morning, which is amazing, since according to the website it shouldn't ship till tomorrow.
Book is nice. All the rumors were true. Vampire powers are split up via role (french-ish names for charismatic, warfare, etc) and are buy-as-you-go. The new zombies aren't shown but ALL the concept art for them has them being held together with scraps of wood and shit.
Ye, I decided that night goblin archers were rubbish against dark elves, so I'm cutting them from the list. Maybe spending the points on a boar for the shaman to give him some mobility.
I'll work on a new list later.
Echo on
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
Night Goblin Archers fulfill a special role.
Shooting arrows at the enemy with almost no chance of causing any damage. The only way they'd be better is if you put a unit of 20 on a hill and had them shooting in two ranks, but by the time your enemy gets close enough you'll probably be engaging them with your other ladz.
Arrer Boyz ftw.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
So, I'm finally getting into this after years of watching my friends playing. They have differing opinions on what a great first-time army should be, some of them say Empire, others say Brettonia, they all say to avoid Wood Elf, Dark Elf, etc because they require more experience to play successfully. What do you guys suggest?
Right now, I'm leaning towards getting the two Empire battallion sets to start off with since they'll give me some room to play around with developing an army. I've had some experience painting, helping friends out with their armies so I've got some paints already.
I Am Not A Bear on
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
I have once seen a unit of night gobbo archers utterly fuck up some incredibly expensive unit.
But I can't for the life of me remember exactly what happened.
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited February 2008
All rolls came up 6? The unit they were shooting against was T3 or lower?
As for a starting army, Empire wouldn't be terrible. They do require some skill to play, and a certain amount of cohesion to your list to use them effectively.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
So, I'm finally getting into this after years of watching my friends playing. They have differing opinions on what a great first-time army should be, some of them say Empire, others say Brettonia, they all say to avoid Wood Elf, Dark Elf, etc because they require more experience to play successfully. What do you guys suggest?
Right now, I'm leaning towards getting the two Empire battallion sets to start off with since they'll give me some room to play around with developing an army. I've had some experience painting, helping friends out with their armies so I've got some paints already.
Empire is definately a solid beginners choice, Dwarves are resilient enough to be forgiving, and Lizardmen can be fun to play for a beginner, as they aren't very complicated and have solid Leadership. What play style were you looking for?
I'm guessing I should cut archers and spider riders from my list first. They're pretty pants.
Is the Doom Diver plastic, or metal? and should I get another boar chariot or a wolf chariot?
I agree with cutting night gob bows, but keep some spear units for those fanatics. I'd probably get boar chariots over wolf chariots, but I'm far from an authority on the subject.
Keep the spider riders though. You need them to act as screeners and charge bait to set your boys/gobs up for counter charges. Fast cav is essential and fast cav that ignores terrain is awesome.
So, I'm finally getting into this after years of watching my friends playing. They have differing opinions on what a great first-time army should be, some of them say Empire, others say Brettonia, they all say to avoid Wood Elf, Dark Elf, etc because they require more experience to play successfully. What do you guys suggest?
Right now, I'm leaning towards getting the two Empire battallion sets to start off with since they'll give me some room to play around with developing an army. I've had some experience painting, helping friends out with their armies so I've got some paints already.
Empire is a good starter. Dwarfs are very forgiving for a new player and very cheap to start right now (Buy two half boxes of Battle for Skull Pass from ebay/barter town and you'll have 1500ish points for 50 bucks or so. Lizardmen are a strong army that aren't exceptionally difficult to get used to, and Brettonia has been a strong and relatively easy to play army for some time.
The only way they'd be better is if you put a unit of 20 on a hill and had them shooting in two ranks, but by the time your enemy gets close enough you'll probably be engaging them with your other ladz.
Yeah, that's how I used them. Had to use their move to resize/turn the unit, but I still got to shoot 10 of them at approaching dark riders for two turns.
The only way they'd be better is if you put a unit of 20 on a hill and had them shooting in two ranks, but by the time your enemy gets close enough you'll probably be engaging them with your other ladz.
Yeah, that's how I used them. Had to use their move to resize/turn the unit, but I still got to shoot 10 of them at approaching dark riders for two turns.
Not a single wound.
BS3 St3 shooting is extremely lackluster. Usually you're hitting on 5s, wounding on 4s, and getting armor saved half the time. Out of 10 shots that means 3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and 50% saved. 1 or no wounds from 10 gobbo archers isn't stunning at all.
If they're sitting on a hill in your deployment, you might try deploying them 10 wide and 2 deep, and all 20 will get to fire.
Erandus on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
So, I'm finally getting into this after years of watching my friends playing. They have differing opinions on what a great first-time army should be, some of them say Empire, others say Brettonia, they all say to avoid Wood Elf, Dark Elf, etc because they require more experience to play successfully. What do you guys suggest?
Right now, I'm leaning towards getting the two Empire battallion sets to start off with since they'll give me some room to play around with developing an army. I've had some experience painting, helping friends out with their armies so I've got some paints already.
Heh. The thing about Warhammer (and one of the things I like about it the most) is that there is no one "good starter army", though there are a couple that rely on more advanced rules knowledge to play well.
Also, there is another caveat; some of the armies that are simple to play are relatively complex to organise for battle because of the way they choose units/magic/allies etc.
That said, the simplest choices for the absolute beginner are probably, in no particular order: High Elves; Empire; Dwarfs; Ogres; Lizardmen.
But you've heard all that already: Beyond that, the armies you probably want to steer clear of until you get to grips with the rules more are: Skaven - too many weird (but hilarious and killy (to both sides)) things; Orcs&Goblins - essentially the same "problem" as the Skaven, only greener; Chaos - between the marks and the two books into three armies thing, plus the lack of shooting (of any kind) make them a difficult army to get a handle on, but really effective once you do; Undead of any stripe - in any undead book, there will be a page of rules which basically amount to "these are the sections of the main rulebook you needn't have bothered with" which is good for the Undead army as they are generally the bits about running away, but bad for the beginning player. Also, the Vampire Counts book is about to be re-released (in 1 or 14 days, depending on how you count).
Posts
I'm assuming you know what I am talking about, and are just playing devil's advocate. Obviously if your entire army consists of 3 units, then any single combat where you roll poorly, or any time someone rolls well on the artillery dice, each poor roll will be much more significant, and each mass of casualties removed due to something like Hail of Doom Arrow or an organ gun will be much, much more significant.
Edit: Hail of Doom Arrow and the Treeman/treekin are pretty solid examples of what I'm talking about
Edit: Reading echo's battle report, he attributed his loss to one failed charge
By all accounts, it should be some terribly silver bullet. But whenever I play against a WE who has it, it tends to either be the biggest non-issue due to a low shot roll, or it's used against a unit I was sacrificing anyway.
But anyway, the point where I was originally going to get to; you're missing the entire point behind why people play games at this point level. You're decrying the fact that things die quicker when it's the biggest damned draw to it.
Meanwhile, I, myself, am not that crazy about 2000+pt games for the same reasons you don't like the 1999- point games; it gives you access to units that have an exaggerated effect on the game.
Either way, I'm not really trying to create an argument so much as I am trying to show some of the players that don't have large armies that there are options that could possibly make things more entertaining for them - some of these players aren't deliberately playing small games because of time, but because of model count.
Quick edit - I was never ''decrying that things die quicker'', only that there are balance issues. In a debate, they call that a ''Strawman''
Once you get to 2000pts there's the tendency to see tooled out lords and a proliferation of warmachines and giant monsters.
I mean, yeah, that shit's fun as hell, but when my only real chance to play is about 3-4 games one day every month or so, it gets kinda tiresome. Compared to say, games at 1000pts where you really can't afford to have the really awesome stuff in lieu of more bodies on the table.
And, well, below 500 it gets into warbands territory, which is a different beast altogether.
As opposed to the higher points brackets where you can safely fill up on these things and still have more than enough points to spend on things that can contest table quarters.
Edit: Deleted!
Look, I'm not disagreeing that it'd destablizing. What I'm saying is that you CAN have a proportionally larger choice of specials and rares, but would you want to?
The point I've been trying to drive at this entire page is that you have to be ridiculously careful on where you spend those thousand points. You fill up your special and rare slots on a bunch of greatcannons and a helblaster, yes, you have something that could be decisive against pretty much anything you point it at, but you're running the risk of losing everything to a flyer or group of skirmishers, or god forbid, a misfire.
On the flipside, you can spend two slots to get a treeman and treekin, and congratulate yourself on spending half your points on four (really badass) models before even considering your compulsory core and hero choices.
Thing is, this stuff is pretty much the norm in 2000pt games. 500pts on four models? I've still got another 1500 I can spend on ranked infantry. 500 on warmachines? The same. If I lose those 500pts, it probably won't cost me the game.
Meanwhile, in 1k land, what's normally your crappy compulsory cannon-fodder core suddenly becomes one of the most important parts of your list.
Basically, games lower than 2000 points and greater than 2000 points have certain draws that make them interesting. Below 2000 points you can invest heavily in certain items, but at the cost of having to make them as effective as possible, whereas in 2000+ you can buy a few Treekins or what have you and still have a competitive list that doesn't rely on them entirely.
Essentially, it comes down to factors of the investment of time, the willingness to collect the models necessary or to use proxies (your movement tray method), and personal preference.
Now, for the sake of changing the topic, anyone getting the Vampire Counts Spearhead box?
Not to mention that it was my first game ever. Mistakes were bound to be made. Such as me forgetting to use that extra choppa my main block of boyz had. :P
Yes, I got the spearhead this morning, which is amazing, since according to the website it shouldn't ship till tomorrow.
Book is nice. All the rumors were true. Vampire powers are split up via role (french-ish names for charismatic, warfare, etc) and are buy-as-you-go. The new zombies aren't shown but ALL the concept art for them has them being held together with scraps of wood and shit.
I'll try and get some pictures tomorrow.
There are no new zombies.
Not a bad deal in terms of having all-plastic Core units and Special infantry.
-Squid Hoppas?
-Doom Diver?!
-Or the giant bow and arrow they have?
Is the Doom Diver plastic, or metal? and should I get another boar chariot or a wolf chariot?
I'll work on a new list later.
Shooting arrows at the enemy with almost no chance of causing any damage. The only way they'd be better is if you put a unit of 20 on a hill and had them shooting in two ranks, but by the time your enemy gets close enough you'll probably be engaging them with your other ladz.
Arrer Boyz ftw.
Right now, I'm leaning towards getting the two Empire battallion sets to start off with since they'll give me some room to play around with developing an army. I've had some experience painting, helping friends out with their armies so I've got some paints already.
But I can't for the life of me remember exactly what happened.
As for a starting army, Empire wouldn't be terrible. They do require some skill to play, and a certain amount of cohesion to your list to use them effectively.
Empire is definately a solid beginners choice, Dwarves are resilient enough to be forgiving, and Lizardmen can be fun to play for a beginner, as they aren't very complicated and have solid Leadership. What play style were you looking for?
Well, there were 20 of 'em up on a hill.
I think it may have been a unit of knights of the realm.
I agree with cutting night gob bows, but keep some spear units for those fanatics. I'd probably get boar chariots over wolf chariots, but I'm far from an authority on the subject.
Keep the spider riders though. You need them to act as screeners and charge bait to set your boys/gobs up for counter charges. Fast cav is essential and fast cav that ignores terrain is awesome.
Empire is a good starter. Dwarfs are very forgiving for a new player and very cheap to start right now (Buy two half boxes of Battle for Skull Pass from ebay/barter town and you'll have 1500ish points for 50 bucks or so. Lizardmen are a strong army that aren't exceptionally difficult to get used to, and Brettonia has been a strong and relatively easy to play army for some time.
Yeah, that's how I used them. Had to use their move to resize/turn the unit, but I still got to shoot 10 of them at approaching dark riders for two turns.
Not a single wound.
BS3 St3 shooting is extremely lackluster. Usually you're hitting on 5s, wounding on 4s, and getting armor saved half the time. Out of 10 shots that means 3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and 50% saved. 1 or no wounds from 10 gobbo archers isn't stunning at all.
If they're sitting on a hill in your deployment, you might try deploying them 10 wide and 2 deep, and all 20 will get to fire.
Also, there is another caveat; some of the armies that are simple to play are relatively complex to organise for battle because of the way they choose units/magic/allies etc.
That said, the simplest choices for the absolute beginner are probably, in no particular order: High Elves; Empire; Dwarfs; Ogres; Lizardmen.
But you've heard all that already: Beyond that, the armies you probably want to steer clear of until you get to grips with the rules more are: Skaven - too many weird (but hilarious and killy (to both sides)) things; Orcs&Goblins - essentially the same "problem" as the Skaven, only greener; Chaos - between the marks and the two books into three armies thing, plus the lack of shooting (of any kind) make them a difficult army to get a handle on, but really effective once you do; Undead of any stripe - in any undead book, there will be a page of rules which basically amount to "these are the sections of the main rulebook you needn't have bothered with" which is good for the Undead army as they are generally the bits about running away, but bad for the beginning player. Also, the Vampire Counts book is about to be re-released (in 1 or 14 days, depending on how you count).
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
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