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[BALANCE ON] Team Fortress 2: Pyro Nerf Applied

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  • Monolithic_DomeMonolithic_Dome Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Have we discussed the backburner in terms of game balance? I haven't really played enough since the update to have a well-developed opinion about it, but so far it seems to me that if you are going to give the pyro a backstab, what's the point of the spy again?

    Am I just whining or is there some real problem here?

    Monolithic_Dome on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • KagnarosKagnaros Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hi new thread.

    So what're people bitchin' about today??

    Kagnaros on
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  • bigwahbigwah Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    How do people get Engineers up on (normally) unaccessible areas? I've seen them in some way up areas (Gold Rush) and some areas that arent really high but def. out of jump+crouch reach (Turbine).

    What is the secret ways?

    bigwah on
    LoL Tribunal:
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    "Hope he dies tbh but a ban would do."
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I haven't played this game in months

    what's this about a backburner?

    Zzulu on
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  • FrabbaFrabba Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    KingMoo wrote: »
    Dude. DUDE. I had a fucking weird dream that phased into a Team Fortress 2 dream. And somehow I was a scout with cloaking and the leafblower as a secondary fire on my scattergun.

    What the fuck.

    not a dream... check this morning's updates

    DO NOT FUCK WITH ME

    D:

    :lol:

    Frabba on
    I'm big in Internet Spaceships.
  • StasisStasis Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    It bothers me in theory that the Pyro has basically just been given the second most health in the game and more crits.

    In practice, it hasn't shown to be that big of a deal. Particularly, the back crits hardly ever work.

    EDIT:
    Zzulu wrote: »
    I haven't played this game in months

    what's this about a backburner?

    Pyro update. Backburner = new flamethrower that crits when you attack someone from behind.

    Stasis on
  • Monolithic_DomeMonolithic_Dome Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    bigwah wrote: »
    How do people get Engineers up on (normally) unaccessible areas? I've seen them in some way up areas (Gold Rush) and some areas that arent really high but def. out of jump+crouch reach (Turbine).

    What is the secret ways?

    You can get to some places by building a dispenser, standing on it, jumping up, placing an exit (your feet won't reach but you can place the exit mid-air) and using the exit to get up.

    higher than that though and it's probably a glitch.

    Monolithic_Dome on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FugaFuga Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    because noone sees you as a spy

    Fuga on
  • DaxonDaxon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    bigwah wrote: »
    How do people get Engineers up on (normally) unaccessible areas? I've seen them in some way up areas (Gold Rush) and some areas that arent really high but def. out of jump+crouch reach (Turbine).

    What is the secret ways?


    Sometimes building a dispenser than jumping onto that then onto next level works.

    Daxon on
  • ZetxZetx 🐧 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Yeah, dispenser jumping + tp building on ledges you have to reach via standing on your dispenser.

    I think L3 sentries are higher than dispensers? In any case, they're higher than L1s ;p

    Zetx on
  • Demitri OmniDemitri Omni Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Have we discussed the backburner in terms of game balance? I haven't really played enough since the update to have a well-developed opinion about it, but so far it seems to me that if you are going to give the pyro a backstab, what's the point of the spy again?

    Am I just whining or is there some real problem here?

    I think generally the Backburner needs to be toned down, particularly the health bonus. I understand possibly making him equal to the soldier, but that AND an enormous damage increase from behind (which can be easily bugged if your target is lagging AT ALL, much like a facestab) is just too much.

    Demitri Omni on
    camo_sig2.png
  • Job_41:25Job_41:25 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Daxon wrote: »
    bigwah wrote: »
    How do people get Engineers up on (normally) unaccessible areas? I've seen them in some way up areas (Gold Rush) and some areas that arent really high but def. out of jump+crouch reach (Turbine).

    What is the secret ways?


    Sometimes building a dispenser than jumping onto that then onto next level works.

    sm_noclip.....I mean, the dispenser thing... yeah that's how you do it.

    Job_41:25 on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Man, I am understanding less and less why the pyro is considered an offensive class. I do so much better when I'm on defense. Is this just me or do other pyros experience this too?

    Lemming on
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Really depends on the situation. The pyro's good at defense, much like the heavy is good at offense despite being a "defensive" class.

    But in maps that have enclosed CPs, the pyro is murder on offense, especially with no SGs involved.

    Phoenix-D on
  • Job_41:25Job_41:25 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I consider the pyro an essential part of defense on certain maps now because of the update. For example, a pyro with the leafblower is critical to defense on dustbowl now.

    Job_41:25 on
  • Kris_xKKris_xK Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Kris_xK wrote: »
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Kris_xK wrote: »
    Bah, I downloaded this last night for some PC glory, only to find that the graphics are all fucked up on my computer. There's geometry everywhere.

    Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck.

    What are your specs?

    Are you over-heating?

    Im away from the comp so these may not be exactly right but:

    AMD Dual Core 2ghz
    2gig ram
    GeForce 7900 GT
    Win XP

    Updated my drivers, everything. Don't think I'm over heating, although that would explain why the geo problems tend to get worse the longer I play.

    Basically, whereever theres a "joint" in the models (whether there characters or the map) I get textures of weird geometry coming from them.

    Thats strange. You shouldn't have a problem running the game, but you might be overheating. See if you can get more airflow, and maybe turn some settings down, and see what happens.

    Yeah I turned all the settings down, and its an open box so it can't be overheating.

    Shit like this is why I went to consoles.

    Kris_xK on
    calvinhobbessleddingsig2.gif
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Lemming wrote: »
    Man, I am understanding less and less why the pyro is considered an offensive class. I do so much better when I'm on defense. Is this just me or do other pyros experience this too?

    The Pyro is an ambush class on offensive just as much as defense - even more so now with the Backburner equipped. Flank the enemy position, pour flame into them, and watch them panic. Not for those allergic to lead, as you're going to have a burning and angry enemy team focusing fire on you shortly thereafter.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Kris_xK wrote: »
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Kris_xK wrote: »
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Kris_xK wrote: »
    Bah, I downloaded this last night for some PC glory, only to find that the graphics are all fucked up on my computer. There's geometry everywhere.

    Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck.

    What are your specs?

    Are you over-heating?

    Im away from the comp so these may not be exactly right but:

    AMD Dual Core 2ghz
    2gig ram
    GeForce 7900 GT
    Win XP

    Updated my drivers, everything. Don't think I'm over heating, although that would explain why the geo problems tend to get worse the longer I play.

    Basically, whereever theres a "joint" in the models (whether there characters or the map) I get textures of weird geometry coming from them.

    Thats strange. You shouldn't have a problem running the game, but you might be overheating. See if you can get more airflow, and maybe turn some settings down, and see what happens.

    Yeah I turned all the settings down, and its an open box so it can't be overheating.

    Shit like this is why I went to consoles.

    Directed airflow > open airflow, unless you've got some serious issues with cooling.

    Do you get graphical glitches in 3DMark or something else running under D3D?

    Also, you might need some tweaks in the NVIDIA control panel.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Lemming wrote: »
    Man, I am understanding less and less why the pyro is considered an offensive class. I do so much better when I'm on defense. Is this just me or do other pyros experience this too?
    The best defense is a good offense.

    tofu on
  • Monolithic_DomeMonolithic_Dome Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Have we discussed the backburner in terms of game balance? I haven't really played enough since the update to have a well-developed opinion about it, but so far it seems to me that if you are going to give the pyro a backstab, what's the point of the spy again?

    Am I just whining or is there some real problem here?

    I think generally the Backburner needs to be toned down, particularly the health bonus. I understand possibly making him equal to the soldier, but that AND an enormous damage increase from behind (which can be easily bugged if your target is lagging AT ALL, much like a facestab) is just too much.

    Yeah I suppose if I were in charge I'd take away the health bonus and/or remove the chance of a crit when attacking from the front.

    As I think about it more I think what bothers me about it is the fact that all the other unlockables require some change in playstyle to take advantage of.

    If you use the kritzrkeig you don't get to invuln people
    If you use the blutsauger you have to get used to firing while retreating
    The axtinguisher and ubersaw both involve going for the high-risk melee attack to take advantage of the new powers.

    There's tradeoffs for all of them. The backburner, though... you just play like you normally played and if you happen to sneak up on someone it's a free kill. neat. there needs to be a tradeoff for it to be as cool as the other unlockables.

    I mean I doubt it will ruin the game... there's so much going on in TF2 that there will inevitably be a paper to cover this rock somewhere, but it's dissapointing since the other unlockables were so cool and well balanced.

    Monolithic_Dome on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • theantipoptheantipop Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    marty wrote: »
    ok you morons missed my point about my headphones. They are wireless I can drink all i want and not fall over cables

    I hope to one day die by cable asphyxiation while inebriated. The epitaph would be unbelievable.

    theantipop on
  • wakkawawakkawa Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I keep getting stabbed by spies that aren't even near me. I can see the spie runnin up on me, but nope, backstabbed 50 ft away.

    That, and half of the people on screen dissappear and the only thing I can see are their guns.

    wakkawa on
  • ScorchedScorched Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    *Waves* Jumping over from the TF2 server, though I lurked here quite a while. Community aspect makes up for my suck at the game.

    On that note though, everytime I connect to JonXP's server, it disconnects me - whether it's full or not. I'm quite certain I wasn't being a dick, so I hope that doesn't mean a ban? (Don't know how that would show up in Valve's browser.)

    Scorched on
  • tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Sometimes I get a "client timed out" error and it kicks me, even though I haven't timed out.

    tofu on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Lemming wrote: »
    Man, I am understanding less and less why the pyro is considered an offensive class. I do so much better when I'm on defense. Is this just me or do other pyros experience this too?

    The Pyro is an ambush class on offensive just as much as defense - even more so now with the Backburner equipped. Flank the enemy position, pour flame into them, and watch them panic. Not for those allergic to lead, as you're going to have a burning and angry enemy team focusing fire on you shortly thereafter.

    Oh, I understand that. I play pretty similarly when I'm on offense and defense (ambushing, sneaking behind people, etc), but it just always seems like it's easier to do all that stuff when defending rather than attacking.

    Lemming on
  • theantipoptheantipop Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    tofu wrote: »
    Sometimes I get a "client timed out" error and it kicks me, even though I haven't timed out.

    yous bein hax0r'd son.

    theantipop on
  • ZetxZetx 🐧 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Have we discussed the backburner in terms of game balance? I haven't really played enough since the update to have a well-developed opinion about it, but so far it seems to me that if you are going to give the pyro a backstab, what's the point of the spy again?

    Am I just whining or is there some real problem here?

    I think generally the Backburner needs to be toned down, particularly the health bonus. I understand possibly making him equal to the soldier, but that AND an enormous damage increase from behind (which can be easily bugged if your target is lagging AT ALL, much like a facestab) is just too much.

    Yeah I suppose if I were in charge I'd take away the health bonus and/or remove the chance of a crit when attacking from the front.

    As I think about it more I think what bothers me about it is the fact that all the other unlockables require some change in playstyle to take advantage of.

    If you use the kritzrkeig you don't get to invuln people
    If you use the blutsauger you have to get used to firing while retreating
    The axtinguisher and ubersaw both involve going for the high-risk melee attack to take advantage of the new powers.

    There's tradeoffs for all of them. The backburner, though... you just play like you normally played and if you happen to sneak up on someone it's a free kill. neat. there needs to be a tradeoff for it to be as cool as the other unlockables.

    I mean I doubt it will ruin the game... there's so much going on in TF2 that there will inevitably be a paper to cover this rock somewhere, but it's dissapointing since the other unlockables were so cool and well balanced.

    I always thought their intended 'tradeoff' was the lack of force push, just that they couldn't change a current weapon so much (as in make the old flamethrower the backburner) so they called the backburner the new weapon instead of the leafblower

    Zetx on
  • Demitri OmniDemitri Omni Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zetx wrote: »
    Have we discussed the backburner in terms of game balance? I haven't really played enough since the update to have a well-developed opinion about it, but so far it seems to me that if you are going to give the pyro a backstab, what's the point of the spy again?

    Am I just whining or is there some real problem here?

    I think generally the Backburner needs to be toned down, particularly the health bonus. I understand possibly making him equal to the soldier, but that AND an enormous damage increase from behind (which can be easily bugged if your target is lagging AT ALL, much like a facestab) is just too much.

    Yeah I suppose if I were in charge I'd take away the health bonus and/or remove the chance of a crit when attacking from the front.

    As I think about it more I think what bothers me about it is the fact that all the other unlockables require some change in playstyle to take advantage of.

    If you use the kritzrkeig you don't get to invuln people
    If you use the blutsauger you have to get used to firing while retreating
    The axtinguisher and ubersaw both involve going for the high-risk melee attack to take advantage of the new powers.

    There's tradeoffs for all of them. The backburner, though... you just play like you normally played and if you happen to sneak up on someone it's a free kill. neat. there needs to be a tradeoff for it to be as cool as the other unlockables.

    I mean I doubt it will ruin the game... there's so much going on in TF2 that there will inevitably be a paper to cover this rock somewhere, but it's dissapointing since the other unlockables were so cool and well balanced.

    I always thought their intended 'tradeoff' was the lack of force push, just that they couldn't change a current weapon so much (as in make the old flamethrower the backburner) so they called the backburner the new weapon instead of the leafblower

    Well the 'tradeoff' of occasionally being able to reflect explosives is in no way equal to 50 fucking health and near-instant death from behind. I've seen an overhealed heavy taken down in less than a second flat.

    I'm sorry, but that's overpowered, even for an ambush class.

    Demitri Omni on
    camo_sig2.png
  • SvidrigailovSvidrigailov Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zetx wrote: »
    I always thought their intended 'tradeoff' was the lack of force push, just that they couldn't change a current weapon so much (as in make the old flamethrower the backburner) so they called the backburner the new weapon instead of the leafblower
    Yeah. Leafblower is a really, really nice bonus, but it's not an "extra"--it's a core part of the class now, and it's a noticeable drawback to lose that function when equipping the Backburner.

    Svidrigailov on
    Neither the whole of truth nor the whole of good is revealed to any single observer, although each observer gains a partial superiority of insight from the peculiar position in which he stands. It is enough to ask of each of us that he should be faithful to his own opportunities and make the most of his own blessings, without presuming to regulate the rest of the vast field.
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Spies can kill overhealed heavies in one shot, that's not overpowered

    Plus, the pyros actually have to be able to sneak behind the heavy without being seen. Most of the time they're spotted and murdered from afar; it takes a good pyro to actually get into position like that, or a lucky one who got exploded and thrown across the map :P

    Lemming on
  • DualEdgeDualEdge Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Spies also miss a lot and die to a flick on the forehead.

    DualEdge on
  • IcemopperIcemopper Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Snipers can kill anything with a fully charged headshot, even an overhealed heavy.

    That's not overpowered.

    Icemopper on
  • Demitri OmniDemitri Omni Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Lemming wrote: »
    Spies can kill overhealed heavies in one shot, that's not overpowered

    Plus, the pyros actually have to be able to sneak behind the heavy without being seen. Most of the time they're spotted and murdered from afar; it takes a good pyro to actually get into position like that, or a lucky one who got exploded and thrown across the map :P

    Pyros are the "element of surprise and ambush" class, not the "element of instagib" class.

    Demitri Omni on
    camo_sig2.png
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    DualEdge wrote: »
    Spies also miss a lot and die to a flick on the forehead.

    And everyone is getting randomly flicked on the forehead with bullets.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    DualEdge wrote: »
    Spies also miss a lot and die to a flick on the forehead.

    Exactly! There are balancing factors, just like how the pyro can't go invisible and cloak and he only has very weak long range attacks. So actually sneaking behind people is even harder as a pyro, and the flamestab is much harder to pull off, and it might not even kill them if they turn fast enough.

    Lemming on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Snipers can kill anything with a fully charged headshot, even an overhealed heavy.

    That's not overpowered.

    So your argument is that because there's already two instant-kill classes, a third is fine?

    Shit, let's just call it Team Instagib 2 then.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Snipers can kill anything with a fully charged headshot, even an overhealed heavy.

    That's not overpowered.

    So your argument is that because there's already two instant-kill classes, a third is fine?

    Shit, let's just call it Team Instagib 2 then.

    It's only an "instant kill" in very hard to achieve circumstances, and even then, it isn't instant. I've had times where I started flamestabbing and the person managed to turn around and ultimately escape or kill me.

    Lemming on
  • ZetxZetx 🐧 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Backburning is a bit harder vs backstabbing since the latter's a one-time act, so the detection only has to work once, instead of a continuous thing for the backburner.

    Zetx on
  • IcemopperIcemopper Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Icemopper wrote: »
    Snipers can kill anything with a fully charged headshot, even an overhealed heavy.

    That's not overpowered.

    So your argument is that because there's already two instant-kill classes, a third is fine?

    Shit, let's just call it Team Instagib 2 then.

    So your argument is that everybody can insta-kill?

    No, you need skill to actually pull off these maneuvers. Not anybody get behind enemy lines un-noticed, and if they kill a singular heavy, they'll probably die soon after. What was happening before was pyros would get behind enemy lines and die instantly from their target. Now they have a chance to actually make a difference. But it takes a good pyro to actually do that. It takes a good spy to do the same, as well as a good sniper to do the same.

    Icemopper on
  • DualEdgeDualEdge Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    My big gripe with the new flamethrowers is that it's insta-death for spies. Normally you could be ignited and get away due to the falloff, but now it's ignite and die.

    This just means I have to step up my game and work on my spinstabs.

    DualEdge on
This discussion has been closed.