neither does the guy having the delusion, that's the point, that both the person with the delusion and the person in the chat with the PJ agent are both talking with non-existent minors that they perceive as real
and wouldn't, for your idea to be accurate, I'd have to pay you to kill someone who was entirely non-existent? You're not the one being harmed, the target is. And isn't the point of the law to protect people from harm?
Well, sometimes we make certain behavior illegal even if nobody is harmed, because somebody could likely be in the future. For instance, discharging a firearm within city limits. The idea is that a guy who is willing to solicit a PJ member sex (thinking they're underage) may well try to solicit an actual minor for sex next time.
Of course, this all depends on just how hard PJ are trolling for guys. At this point, it's likely all they're really picking up is the "low hanging fruit," or guys who likely would never have actually tried anything without the kind of "nudging" that PJ provides.
that's pretty much the reason it worries me. How many people would never, ever have acted on their pedophilia if they hadn't been tempted into it by Perverted Justice?
That, and the uncomfortable proximity into Thought Crime territory
The Thought Crime part doesn't bother me. Mainly because it isn't thought crime. Thought crime is if goons knocked down my door because I was thinking about having sex with kids, or because I told some dude I thought little kids were hot. There's a difference between that and actually soliciting sex from somebody online that you have every reason to believe is a child.
But yes, the potential entrapment part is pretty fucking troubling...I know it's not necessarily entrapment in the legal sense, but often seems to be in the reasonable sense...it's actually one of the biggest problems I have with PJ.
Well, that and obviously that I think our treatment of sex offenders, particularly in the last decade or so, is doing more harm than good (even if you actually are out to protect children).
These shows are generally ok because America believes pedophiles are SHIT, that don't deserve to live. For the most part they are also right.
Shit, does anyone remember the case of Gary Plauche? There was this dude, Jeffery Doucet who raped Gary's son. The police found him, and arrested him.
Then, one day they were taking him through an airport, and Gary was waiting at a telephone booth pretending to be talking. As the police walk by with the pedophile, Gary steps out, produces a handgun and shoots and kills the pedophile right in the head, blowing his brains out, ON LIVE CAMERA (you can find the video on the internet). There was NO doubt at all that Gary Plauche had shot and killed that man.
Gary's punishment? 5 years probation.
Pedophiles are not people.
That's really sad :-(
Are you involved with the boy scouts, little league, and/or big brother big sister organization?
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
In my younger days i did a lot of chatting on AOL back before i graduated to the real internet. I made quite a few friends, some underage, some older. Young people are naturally curious, and the internet offers a great place for people to be themselves, or feel themselves out. Peoples sometimes use the internet as a way to feel out their boundaries. I think the opening scenes of Hard Candy are a wonderful example of this, aside from the guy doing everything wrong.
The point here is that as an adult you have to remember that you are in fact an adult. If your 18, and shes 17 theres a bit of a leeway. However if your 30 and shes 13 you have issues.
A friend of mine had four children. When i first met A- (The to oldest were Amanda, and Amber, i could never remember which name was which so the oldest was A+ the second was A-) she was in that feeling herself out stage and was doing the "im going to half hazardly flirt and see what i can get away with." with pretty much any guy around. It was really cute, so I took to calling her jailbait.
The funny part was she had no idea what that meant, so i had to sit her down and explain to her that flirting is ok. However being underage means that if someone over 18 takes it beyond that they can go to jail so you should be a little more careful who, and where you flirt with people. Some might take it a little more seriously than you intend. The point is that young adults want to feel like adults, and interact with adults on an adult level that they may not be ready for. As adults we need to be able to communicate with them as equals, while at the point realizing they are still children in many ways.
I once got into a conversation with A+ about Sailor Moon. I had used to watch it when it first hit American TV, and apparently it was still on the air. About 10 minutes in she just stopped, looked at me, and said "i think this is the first conversation I've ever had with an adult where i didn't feel like a kid." She was 17 at the time, and we both got a good laugh out of "congrats on ruining it."
These shows are generally ok because America believes pedophiles are SHIT, that don't deserve to live. For the most part they are also right.
Shit, does anyone remember the case of Gary Plauche? There was this dude, Jeffery Doucet who raped Gary's son. The police found him, and arrested him.
Then, one day they were taking him through an airport, and Gary was waiting at a telephone booth pretending to be talking. As the police walk by with the pedophile, Gary steps out, produces a handgun and shoots and kills the pedophile right in the head, blowing his brains out, ON LIVE CAMERA (you can find the video on the internet). There was NO doubt at all that Gary Plauche had shot and killed that man.
Gary's punishment? 5 years probation.
Pedophiles are not people.
That's really sad :-(
Are you involved with the boy scouts, little league, and/or big brother big sister organization?
Just what the fuck is that question supposed to imply?
These shows are generally ok because America believes pedophiles are SHIT, that don't deserve to live. For the most part they are also right.
Shit, does anyone remember the case of Gary Plauche? There was this dude, Jeffery Doucet who raped Gary's son. The police found him, and arrested him.
Then, one day they were taking him through an airport, and Gary was waiting at a telephone booth pretending to be talking. As the police walk by with the pedophile, Gary steps out, produces a handgun and shoots and kills the pedophile right in the head, blowing his brains out, ON LIVE CAMERA (you can find the video on the internet). There was NO doubt at all that Gary Plauche had shot and killed that man.
Gary's punishment? 5 years probation.
Pedophiles are not people.
That's really sad :-(
Are you involved with the boy scouts, little league, and/or big brother big sister organization?
Just what the fuck is that question supposed to imply?
That anyone who has anything less that blind scorn for pedophiles must hate The Children.
We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.
if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.
Yes, and you'd certainly be doing society a great favor with your "justice," as the next bunch of guys who get out of prison after hearing that story decide they'd be better off just dropping off the radar entirely rather than risk their lives by registering as a sex offender. Good work!
But, I mean, hey, why would you care if ten other girls got molested just because you had a hard-on for revenge? At least the guy being dead makes everything all better, right?
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him? I personally believe that people can't be cured of being a child diddler. Personally i don't think guys who rape children should ever get out of prison.
So according to you, people should just open up their arms to child rapists after they get out? Our system works so well that you think these monsters should be allowed to just reenter society? All is forgiven?
I'm not talking about a 17 year old dating a sixteen year old, or 2 children playing doctor. I'm not talking about that stuff that is clearly ridiculous. I'm talking about an adult taking sexual advantage of a child. As far as i'm concerned when someone does that they give up all rights to ever be a part of society again. It is my opinion and you don't have to agree (i'm assuming you don't). I'm not saying they should be killed off, but these maggots in my mind do not deserve a second chance.
My friend was raped when she was 11 years old..by a cop, who was the best man at her uncle's wedding. No one believed her when she told her parents. He was caught years later molesting other children...what do we do with that guy? What fucking good will he ever serve society again????? A child raping cop.
Another friend of mine was molested by his fathers friend. He was 9 and the guy was over 30. He never told anyone but a few of us. It's fucked him up for years. He still sees this guy at family parties and stuff. He's 27 now and has to deal with that stuff. Should he just look the other way when that guy is with a child?
Judge me all you want for being an ignorant prick or whatever you want to think. I'm assuming you are either
1) really young
2) have no kids
3) are unbelieveably jaded
4) out of touch with reality
or
5) and i hope this one is it.....never have had a person in your life affected by a molesting adult they were unfortunate enough to trust.
So according to you, people should just open up their arms to child rapists after they get out? Our system works so well that you think these monsters should be allowed to just reenter society? All is forgiven?
Hoy, strawman. Back the fuck down, and think about this for a moment. Child molestors are an unfortunate fact of our society, and no amount of "shootin' 'em in the head" is going to change that.
These people are in society, this fact will never change, and thus we have very few options. Your avenue makes them fear for their lives, which means they skulk in the shadows, blind to law enforcement and parole officers who try to keep them acting within boundaries society deems acceptable. Without law enforcement in their life, they're going to revert to their base urges which is to rape your daughter. That's not the worst of it though, since we're living in your society where they're kept in prison for life, or even put to death, they'll want to cover their crimes, which means killing your daughter and maybe moving on to keep out of the spotlight. So now we have a dead little girl, and no suspect because society forces these people into the fringes where we can't keep tabs on who they are and where they go.
Oh, and before you apply one of your five clever labels that will let you dismiss what I've said here, my mother was molested over several years as a child by her grandfather, and my wife was raped when she was 12-years-old riding home on her bike. And if you asked my wife what she thinks about child rapists and molestors, she'd say the exact same thing I said up above.
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm...
Listen, I'm only going to say this once, and I want you to actually read it and try very hard to understand and accept it, because it's not only true, but it's also right.
The criminal justice system is not based on the idea of obtaining personal justice for the wronged party. It recognizes that in the vast majority of cases, there simply is not a punishment that makes things "all better" for the victim or the victim's family. Having the mindset of "If this happened to my daughter, I would..." is wrong, because that is not the point. If juries and judges personalized every crime, and acted as if their child were the victim in every instance, and then sought a punishment that would satisfy them, we would have almost nothing but the death penalty for every crime, even petty ones (there are a lot of vengeful people out there).
No, the goal of the criminal justice system is justice and civil order for the entire society, not just the wronged individual. We have a civil court system for redressing personal grievances.
Vigilantism is wrong. It is harmful to the order of society, and it is also morally wrong.
The average American father (which I'm assuming you are) spends far too much time fantasizing about pedophilia revenge scenarios involving their children. It is unhealthy and you all need to fucking stop.
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.
Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.
Vigilantism will not protect the children.
Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.
Was this an internet rumour? Because those are not trustworthy.
We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.
if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.
Yes, and you'd certainly be doing society a great favor with your "justice," as the next bunch of guys who get out of prison after hearing that story decide they'd be better off just dropping off the radar entirely rather than risk their lives by registering as a sex offender. Good work!
But, I mean, hey, why would you care if ten other girls got molested just because you had a hard-on for revenge? At least the guy being dead makes everything all better, right?
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him? I personally believe that people can't be cured of being a child diddler. Personally i don't think guys who rape children should ever get out of prison.
So according to you, people should just open up their arms to child rapists after they get out? Our system works so well that you think these monsters should be allowed to just reenter society? All is forgiven?
I'm not talking about a 17 year old dating a sixteen year old, or 2 children playing doctor. I'm not talking about that stuff that is clearly ridiculous. I'm talking about an adult taking sexual advantage of a child. As far as i'm concerned when someone does that they give up all rights to ever be a part of society again. It is my opinion and you don't have to agree (i'm assuming you don't). I'm not saying they should be killed off, but these maggots in my mind do not deserve a second chance.
My friend was raped when she was 11 years old..by a cop, who was the best man at her uncle's wedding. No one believed her when she told her parents. He was caught years later molesting other children...what do we do with that guy? What fucking good will he ever serve society again????? A child raping cop.
Another friend of mine was molested by his fathers friend. He was 9 and the guy was over 30. He never told anyone but a few of us. It's fucked him up for years. He still sees this guy at family parties and stuff. He's 27 now and has to deal with that stuff. Should he just look the other way when that guy is with a child?
Judge me all you want for being an ignorant prick or whatever you want to think. I'm assuming you are either
1) really young
2) have no kids
3) are unbelieveably jaded
4) out of touch with reality
or
5) and i hope this one is it.....never have had a person in your life affected by a molesting adult they were unfortunate enough to trust.
Are you seriously asking if cold-blooded murder makes you the bad guy? YES! Fuck. Does it make the child molester a good guy? Hell no. But don't pretend that it's "justice," when, in reality, it's just you getting your rocks off. And would you get away with it? Almost certainly. Would it be a help to society? As long as you pretend that you're doing it in a vacuum, and externalities don't exist, yes.
Nice argument from authority/ad hominem one-two combo at the end, there, too.
The average American father (which I'm assuming you are) spends far too much time fantasizing about pedophilia revenge scenarios involving their children. It is unhealthy and you all need to fucking stop.
I would sig this, if it didn't depress me so much.
I think that if you can try a 15 year old as an adult for murder, 15 year olds should be able to fuck whoever they want.
And vice versa.
Which is it, law? Are they capable of making decisions on the same level as adults, or not?
I'd be interested to see the break down of states age of consent laws versus the youngest age tried (and/or convicted) as an adult.
No see, the law is whatever is most convenient at the time. If you kill someone at the age of 15, you might as well be 27. And a pyschopath. But if you have sex with an adult at the age of 15, you might as well be a helpless 3 year old child. With terminal brain cancer. And no legs.
Each week my team will convince a parent that his or her child has been the victim of a terrible crime through outright fraud. We will convince the parent that the perpetrator of the crime can be found at a particular place at a particular time.
When the parent arrives to murder the "criminal" they will be pepper sprayed, tazed, arrested and charged with attempted murder.
We will televise it every week and work with law enforcement to create safety and justice by removing would-be vigilantes from our communities.
If you have a problem with this, then it means you support murder, it probably means you are a murderer, and hopefully we'll be featuring you on our show soon.
Each week my team will convince a parent that his or her child has been the victim of a terrible crime through outright fraud. We will convince the parent that the perpetrator of the crime can be found at a particular place at a particular time.
When the parent arrives to murder the "criminal" they will be pepper sprayed, tazed, arrested and charged with attempted murder.
We will televise it every week and work with law enforcement to create safety and justice by removing would-be vigilantes from our communities.
If you have a problem with this, then it means you support murder, it probably means you are a murderer, and hopefully we'll be featuring you on our show soon.
Each week my team will convince a parent that his or her child has been the victim of a terrible crime through outright fraud. We will convince the parent that the perpetrator of the crime can be found at a particular place at a particular time.
When the parent arrives to murder the "criminal" they will be pepper sprayed, tazed, arrested and charged with attempted murder.
We will televise it every week and work with law enforcement to create safety and justice by removing would-be vigilantes from our communities.
If you have a problem with this, then it means you support murder, it probably means you are a murderer, and hopefully we'll be featuring you on our show soon.
Who thinks this is a good idea?
I think it would end very badly. Sure your average dad you could probably talk down/taze. Then of course someone fucks up and ex nazi seal dad decides to take the law into his own hands. Pretty soon the "bait" has a slit throat, lying in a pool of his own blood, and no one has a clue WTF has occured.
Sure its all fun and games when its grrr arg testosterone, but let us not forget their are some people out there who are damn good at killing people, and are not going to go rushing in rage blazing.
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I actually think it's a great idea, and I want to extend it to other crimes, such as vigilantism.
I think it would end very badly. Sure your average dad you could probably talk down/taze. Then of course someone fucks up and ex nazi seal dad decides to take the law into his own hands. Pretty soon the "bait" has a slit throat, lying in a pool of his own blood, and no one has a clue WTF has occured.
Sure its all fun and games when its grrr arg testosterone, but let us not forget their are some people out there who are damn good at killing people, and are not going to go rushing in rage blazing.
This is why I will not be hosting the show myself. Ashton Kutcher was put forward as a possible host in [chat] and I think that covers all the bases. Hopefully our predators will be shocked enough to see a celebrity waiting for them that we can get the drop on them. If not, well, Ashton Kutcher lying in a pool of blood would make for some damn fine television.
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I actually think it's a great idea, and I want to extend it to other crimes, such as vigilantism.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I do not think anyone is saying when LAW ENFORCEMENT does it there is a problem. The problem comes in when a network station that does not have to follow the same legal and ethical standards decides to ambush these guys with a camera. Thats where I have a problem. You are basically televising these men as convicted pedophiles when they have yet to be found guilty of that crime. You have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner.
And frankly its only OK when I do that.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
Also, just to cure you of some of your rampant ignorance, To Catch a Predator is not 'the current system of law enforcement.'
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I actually think it's a great idea, and I want to extend it to other crimes, such as vigilantism.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
It's pretty much the height of irony that you are accusing me of not having a point. A brief review of the thread will show that I have made many, and you have made no points at all. Not one argument, not one post of merit, not a single worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I actually think it's a great idea, and I want to extend it to other crimes, such as vigilantism.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
What, you don't have a problem with people who drive hundreds of miles to kill someone who they think is a child molestor?
Let me guess... no one you know has ever been murdered.
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
Also, just to cure you of some of your rampant ignorance, To Catch a Predator is not 'the current system of law enforcement.'
I never said that it was.
Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I do not think anyone is saying when LAW ENFORCEMENT does it there is a problem. The problem comes in when a network station that does not have to follow the same legal and ethical standards decides to ambush these guys with a camera. Thats where I have a problem. You are basically televising these men as convicted pedophiles when they have yet to be found guilty of that crime. You have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner.
And frankly its only OK when I do that.
Pretty much, except for that last part.
I've got no problem if a cop pretends to be a 10 year old boy/girl/robot and tricks a pedophile into going to a location where they instead get handcuffed and await trial.
I've got EVERY problem when we put that on TV and glorify it for the public, while putting it on television before the individual has been convicted(guaranteeing they will be seen as guilty no matter the situation).
Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."
How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I do not think anyone is saying when LAW ENFORCEMENT does it there is a problem. The problem comes in when a network station that does not have to follow the same legal and ethical standards decides to ambush these guys with a camera. Thats where I have a problem. You are basically televising these men as convicted pedophiles when they have yet to be found guilty of that crime. You have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner.
And frankly its only OK when I do that.
Pretty much, except for that last part.
I've got no problem if a cop pretends to be a 10 year old boy/girl/robot and tricks a pedophile into going to a location where they instead get handcuffed and await trial.
I've got EVERY problem when we put that on TV and glorify it for the public, while putting it on television before the individual has been convicted(guaranteeing they will be seen as guilty no matter the situation).
Right, they only drove 500 miles to hang out, watch My Little Pony, and warn the lil tykes about the dangers of the interbutts. Riiiiiight.
I will say this- any child molester would be right lucky to have you blokes on his jury. "That dirty little lolita seduced me! I couldn't control myself, and she wanted it!"
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
Right, they only drove 500 miles to hang out, watch My Little Pony, and warn the lil tykes about the dangers of the interbutts. Riiiiiight.
I will say this- any child molester would be right lucky to have you blokes on his jury. "That dirty little lolita seduced me! I couldn't control myself, and she wanted it!"
Jury? What jury? Drove 500 miles, declared a pedophile in a court of public opinion, and then tackled by police. At what point does this situation involve a jury exactly?
Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."
How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.
Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.
You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
Also, just to cure you of some of your rampant ignorance, To Catch a Predator is not 'the current system of law enforcement.'
I never said that it was.
Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."
*sigh*
No, try reading the thread again. The problem a lot of people have with To Catch a Predator is that as a television show which thrives on sensationalism, there's a serious question about their tactics and objectivity.
Because while they have committed some degree of crime and deserve to be punished for it, as you have so aptly demonstrated, just seeing them on TV makes them automatically guilty, and as some other posters in here have indicated, perfectly acceptable to be thrown against the wall and shot in the head.
I will say this- any child molester would be right lucky to have you blokes on his jury. "That dirty little lolita seduced me! I couldn't control myself, and she wanted it!"
So you think they're victimizing well meaning pillars of society who only wanted to hang out and watch My Little Pony with a 12 year old? Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you get to constantly accuse me of "not reading what I said, dammit."
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
So you think they're victimizing well meaning pillars of society who only wanted to hang out and watch My Little Pony with a 12 year old? Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you get to constantly accuse me of "not reading what I said, dammit."
Dude. The issue isn't that these are necessarily good people, though of course a good many I would imagine are genuinely unable to stop themselves.
The issue is that their offense and the ensuing arrest have been DISPLAYED ON NATIONAL TELEVISION. As far as I am concerned, NO ONE deserves that. Not a terrorist, not a pedophile, not a rapist, not one single person on the planet deserves to have their worst moment emblazoned upon the world for all to remember them with. ESPECIALLY not if it's something where we will, at some point, declare them suitable for society again and let them back into it on some level.
Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.
You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?
Gee i wonder what a show called "TO CATCH A PREDATOR" could possibly be representing the men on it as. Possibly Predators, and not the lets get people elected kinda Predator with the cool invisibility and wrists blades. Oh no, the other kind. The sexual kind.
So what we have is people paid to lure men into meeting with underage girls. They do not have the same rules, regulations, or oversight as a police officer would. In fact the guilt or innocence doesn't really matter. The ability for the evidence to hold up in court, completely irrelevant. That can poison the entire tree if they so desire and go pelting people with the poisoned fruit.
As long as the guy arrives to be ambushed on camera as a pedophile what does due process matter? You are putting an untried man on national tv in the same light you would a convicted pedophile. One has not been convicted of a crime and at worst said some naughty things to underage girls with an unknown amount of prompting. The other actually did horribly things to children. Your making them one in the same. These peoples lives are ruined even if they are found innocent of the crime.
I cant stress this enough, this show has completely removed the justice system from the equation. It has become the judge, the jury, and the executioner.
just seeing them on TV makes them automatically guilty
Now we're finally getting somewhere.
Suppose I video someone breaking into my garage, where I keep my lawn equipment, and put the video on youtube after catching them in the act and having them taken away.
How does that "try and convict" them?
Your objections stem more from "their reputation is being hurt and everyone is seeing them get busted" than anything related to modern jurisprudence.
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
Hey, Tosti, shock everyone here; post something that isn't a strawman.
Excuse me for not realizing that this was actually "Circlejerk thread in which we all talk about how horrible TCAP is and backslap each other over how compassionate and progressive we are."
Tostitos on
The internet gives me a native +2 bonus in Craft (Disturbing Mental Image).
Posts
The Thought Crime part doesn't bother me. Mainly because it isn't thought crime. Thought crime is if goons knocked down my door because I was thinking about having sex with kids, or because I told some dude I thought little kids were hot. There's a difference between that and actually soliciting sex from somebody online that you have every reason to believe is a child.
But yes, the potential entrapment part is pretty fucking troubling...I know it's not necessarily entrapment in the legal sense, but often seems to be in the reasonable sense...it's actually one of the biggest problems I have with PJ.
Well, that and obviously that I think our treatment of sex offenders, particularly in the last decade or so, is doing more harm than good (even if you actually are out to protect children).
Are you involved with the boy scouts, little league, and/or big brother big sister organization?
The point here is that as an adult you have to remember that you are in fact an adult. If your 18, and shes 17 theres a bit of a leeway. However if your 30 and shes 13 you have issues.
A friend of mine had four children. When i first met A- (The to oldest were Amanda, and Amber, i could never remember which name was which so the oldest was A+ the second was A-) she was in that feeling herself out stage and was doing the "im going to half hazardly flirt and see what i can get away with." with pretty much any guy around. It was really cute, so I took to calling her jailbait.
The funny part was she had no idea what that meant, so i had to sit her down and explain to her that flirting is ok. However being underage means that if someone over 18 takes it beyond that they can go to jail so you should be a little more careful who, and where you flirt with people. Some might take it a little more seriously than you intend. The point is that young adults want to feel like adults, and interact with adults on an adult level that they may not be ready for. As adults we need to be able to communicate with them as equals, while at the point realizing they are still children in many ways.
I once got into a conversation with A+ about Sailor Moon. I had used to watch it when it first hit American TV, and apparently it was still on the air. About 10 minutes in she just stopped, looked at me, and said "i think this is the first conversation I've ever had with an adult where i didn't feel like a kid." She was 17 at the time, and we both got a good laugh out of "congrats on ruining it."
Just what the fuck is that question supposed to imply?
That anyone who has anything less that blind scorn for pedophiles must hate The Children.
Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him? I personally believe that people can't be cured of being a child diddler. Personally i don't think guys who rape children should ever get out of prison.
So according to you, people should just open up their arms to child rapists after they get out? Our system works so well that you think these monsters should be allowed to just reenter society? All is forgiven?
I'm not talking about a 17 year old dating a sixteen year old, or 2 children playing doctor. I'm not talking about that stuff that is clearly ridiculous. I'm talking about an adult taking sexual advantage of a child. As far as i'm concerned when someone does that they give up all rights to ever be a part of society again. It is my opinion and you don't have to agree (i'm assuming you don't). I'm not saying they should be killed off, but these maggots in my mind do not deserve a second chance.
My friend was raped when she was 11 years old..by a cop, who was the best man at her uncle's wedding. No one believed her when she told her parents. He was caught years later molesting other children...what do we do with that guy? What fucking good will he ever serve society again????? A child raping cop.
Another friend of mine was molested by his fathers friend. He was 9 and the guy was over 30. He never told anyone but a few of us. It's fucked him up for years. He still sees this guy at family parties and stuff. He's 27 now and has to deal with that stuff. Should he just look the other way when that guy is with a child?
Judge me all you want for being an ignorant prick or whatever you want to think. I'm assuming you are either
1) really young
2) have no kids
3) are unbelieveably jaded
4) out of touch with reality
or
5) and i hope this one is it.....never have had a person in your life affected by a molesting adult they were unfortunate enough to trust.
Hoy, strawman. Back the fuck down, and think about this for a moment. Child molestors are an unfortunate fact of our society, and no amount of "shootin' 'em in the head" is going to change that.
These people are in society, this fact will never change, and thus we have very few options. Your avenue makes them fear for their lives, which means they skulk in the shadows, blind to law enforcement and parole officers who try to keep them acting within boundaries society deems acceptable. Without law enforcement in their life, they're going to revert to their base urges which is to rape your daughter. That's not the worst of it though, since we're living in your society where they're kept in prison for life, or even put to death, they'll want to cover their crimes, which means killing your daughter and maybe moving on to keep out of the spotlight. So now we have a dead little girl, and no suspect because society forces these people into the fringes where we can't keep tabs on who they are and where they go.
Oh, and before you apply one of your five clever labels that will let you dismiss what I've said here, my mother was molested over several years as a child by her grandfather, and my wife was raped when she was 12-years-old riding home on her bike. And if you asked my wife what she thinks about child rapists and molestors, she'd say the exact same thing I said up above.
Listen, I'm only going to say this once, and I want you to actually read it and try very hard to understand and accept it, because it's not only true, but it's also right.
The criminal justice system is not based on the idea of obtaining personal justice for the wronged party. It recognizes that in the vast majority of cases, there simply is not a punishment that makes things "all better" for the victim or the victim's family. Having the mindset of "If this happened to my daughter, I would..." is wrong, because that is not the point. If juries and judges personalized every crime, and acted as if their child were the victim in every instance, and then sought a punishment that would satisfy them, we would have almost nothing but the death penalty for every crime, even petty ones (there are a lot of vengeful people out there).
No, the goal of the criminal justice system is justice and civil order for the entire society, not just the wronged individual. We have a civil court system for redressing personal grievances.
Vigilantism is wrong. It is harmful to the order of society, and it is also morally wrong.
The average American father (which I'm assuming you are) spends far too much time fantasizing about pedophilia revenge scenarios involving their children. It is unhealthy and you all need to fucking stop.
I'm assuming you don't think they deserve to die.
I'm counting on you guys to be able to figure this reason out without me beating you about the face and neck with it.
Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.
Vigilantism will not protect the children.
Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.
:x :x :x
Was this an internet rumour? Because those are not trustworthy.
Nice argument from authority/ad hominem one-two combo at the end, there, too.
I would sig this, if it didn't depress me so much.
No see, the law is whatever is most convenient at the time. If you kill someone at the age of 15, you might as well be 27. And a pyschopath. But if you have sex with an adult at the age of 15, you might as well be a helpless 3 year old child. With terminal brain cancer. And no legs.
To Catch a Vigilante
Each week my team will convince a parent that his or her child has been the victim of a terrible crime through outright fraud. We will convince the parent that the perpetrator of the crime can be found at a particular place at a particular time.
When the parent arrives to murder the "criminal" they will be pepper sprayed, tazed, arrested and charged with attempted murder.
We will televise it every week and work with law enforcement to create safety and justice by removing would-be vigilantes from our communities.
If you have a problem with this, then it means you support murder, it probably means you are a murderer, and hopefully we'll be featuring you on our show soon.
Who thinks this is a good idea?
I love it.
Tell me, what do we need to do to make your show?
I think it would end very badly. Sure your average dad you could probably talk down/taze. Then of course someone fucks up and ex nazi seal dad decides to take the law into his own hands. Pretty soon the "bait" has a slit throat, lying in a pool of his own blood, and no one has a clue WTF has occured.
Sure its all fun and games when its grrr arg testosterone, but let us not forget their are some people out there who are damn good at killing people, and are not going to go rushing in rage blazing.
Those poor, poor child fuckers.
I actually think it's a great idea, and I want to extend it to other crimes, such as vigilantism.
This is why I will not be hosting the show myself. Ashton Kutcher was put forward as a possible host in [chat] and I think that covers all the bases. Hopefully our predators will be shocked enough to see a celebrity waiting for them that we can get the drop on them. If not, well, Ashton Kutcher lying in a pool of blood would make for some damn fine television.
"trolling to make a point" only works when you actually have one.
I do not think anyone is saying when LAW ENFORCEMENT does it there is a problem. The problem comes in when a network station that does not have to follow the same legal and ethical standards decides to ambush these guys with a camera. Thats where I have a problem. You are basically televising these men as convicted pedophiles when they have yet to be found guilty of that crime. You have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner.
And frankly its only OK when I do that.
It's pretty much the height of irony that you are accusing me of not having a point. A brief review of the thread will show that I have made many, and you have made no points at all. Not one argument, not one post of merit, not a single worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
What, you don't have a problem with people who drive hundreds of miles to kill someone who they think is a child molestor?
Let me guess... no one you know has ever been murdered.
I never said that it was.
Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."
Pretty much, except for that last part.
I've got no problem if a cop pretends to be a 10 year old boy/girl/robot and tricks a pedophile into going to a location where they instead get handcuffed and await trial.
I've got EVERY problem when we put that on TV and glorify it for the public, while putting it on television before the individual has been convicted(guaranteeing they will be seen as guilty no matter the situation).
How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.
Right, they only drove 500 miles to hang out, watch My Little Pony, and warn the lil tykes about the dangers of the interbutts. Riiiiiight.
I will say this- any child molester would be right lucky to have you blokes on his jury. "That dirty little lolita seduced me! I couldn't control myself, and she wanted it!"
Jury? What jury? Drove 500 miles, declared a pedophile in a court of public opinion, and then tackled by police. At what point does this situation involve a jury exactly?
Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.
You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?
No, try reading the thread again. The problem a lot of people have with To Catch a Predator is that as a television show which thrives on sensationalism, there's a serious question about their tactics and objectivity.
Because while they have committed some degree of crime and deserve to be punished for it, as you have so aptly demonstrated, just seeing them on TV makes them automatically guilty, and as some other posters in here have indicated, perfectly acceptable to be thrown against the wall and shot in the head.
Stop being a dumbshit.
Dude. The issue isn't that these are necessarily good people, though of course a good many I would imagine are genuinely unable to stop themselves.
The issue is that their offense and the ensuing arrest have been DISPLAYED ON NATIONAL TELEVISION. As far as I am concerned, NO ONE deserves that. Not a terrorist, not a pedophile, not a rapist, not one single person on the planet deserves to have their worst moment emblazoned upon the world for all to remember them with. ESPECIALLY not if it's something where we will, at some point, declare them suitable for society again and let them back into it on some level.
Gee i wonder what a show called "TO CATCH A PREDATOR" could possibly be representing the men on it as. Possibly Predators, and not the lets get people elected kinda Predator with the cool invisibility and wrists blades. Oh no, the other kind. The sexual kind.
So what we have is people paid to lure men into meeting with underage girls. They do not have the same rules, regulations, or oversight as a police officer would. In fact the guilt or innocence doesn't really matter. The ability for the evidence to hold up in court, completely irrelevant. That can poison the entire tree if they so desire and go pelting people with the poisoned fruit.
As long as the guy arrives to be ambushed on camera as a pedophile what does due process matter? You are putting an untried man on national tv in the same light you would a convicted pedophile. One has not been convicted of a crime and at worst said some naughty things to underage girls with an unknown amount of prompting. The other actually did horribly things to children. Your making them one in the same. These peoples lives are ruined even if they are found innocent of the crime.
I cant stress this enough, this show has completely removed the justice system from the equation. It has become the judge, the jury, and the executioner.
It is only ok when I do that.
Now we're finally getting somewhere.
Suppose I video someone breaking into my garage, where I keep my lawn equipment, and put the video on youtube after catching them in the act and having them taken away.
How does that "try and convict" them?
Your objections stem more from "their reputation is being hurt and everyone is seeing them get busted" than anything related to modern jurisprudence.
Excuse me for not realizing that this was actually "Circlejerk thread in which we all talk about how horrible TCAP is and backslap each other over how compassionate and progressive we are."