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Separating Art from the Artist
Hacksaw
J. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
J. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
This is Orson Scott Card. He is a homophobic douchebag.
This is Ender's Game, a book by Orson Scott Card. I'm told it's quite excellent.
A lot of people argue that it is impossible to completely separate an artist's work from the artist themselves. Others argue that art can be appreciated in a vacuum, regardless of the artist's extra-curricular antics/opinions. What say you, D&D; is it possible to appreciate the genius of a painting/book/movie knowing that the person who created it is a gigantic raging twat, or is it all just fruit of the poisonous tree?
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Are we done here?
Yeah, he's a reprehensible fucking idiot.
But, and this is something I learned a long time ago, you really have to separate the author from the work. If Hitler had written the Harry Potter series, I would still have enjoyed them and I would still despise Hitler for the many atrocities he committed.
I don't understand why everything is a zero-sum game. People can't love and hate someone at the same time, or they choose not to. I love Ender's Game. And I love Card for having written it. And I hate him for his other attitudes. He is many things to me, but really he is nothing to me. He's not in my family so I don't have to love or hate the whole guy in one package. He's not a friend I have to judge or associate myself with. He's a guy that wrote a brilliant novel. And he's also a guy that's a complete asshole. It doesn't matter that it's the same guy because my relationship with him as the author of Ender's Game is a different relationship than the one I have with him as a homophobic fuckface. The second relationship could just as easily be with someone else.
When it comes to the book he wrote, I just don't give a shit that he's a homophobe. When it comes to the sum-total of who Orson Scott Card is then, yes, of course I care. When when I'm reading Ender's Game, I don't care who the sum total of Orson Scott Card is. When I'm reading a book, the author could be living, dead, the best person in the world, or Hitler and it doesn't matter to me at all.
And why should it? Why should I deprive myself of a good piece of art just because the artist is an insufferable twat? Why should I avoid Tom Cruise movies because he's a Scientologist (except for the obvious economic ones)? Why should I dislike Johnny Depp just because he's decided to have enough of America and has decided to become French or whatever? What does this matter? Actors are paid to lie to us. That's their job: Lying. Pretending to be someone else. Divorcing who they are from who they pretend to be. That's their job. I simply do not comprehend people that avoid movies with actors that are Scientologists or whatever for the same reason I don't understand why people give a shit about a book's author. It doesn't matter. The book matters, the film matters, and your opinion of either should be completely removed from the author.
Unless he's killing kittens to make the movie or something.
No, because the first option is dumb.
If I say that a piece of art is awesome, I'm not saying that the creator is awesome, just the physical object they created.
See I didn't realise they came in two different orders.
I think the best possible argument for this is Paradise Lost, because it becomes so much cooler if you consider Satan to be the good guy.
Awareness of context gives me a fuller understanding of what I encounter, but it’s not necessary.
I find the interviewer more annoying than Card. Card has some horribly fucked up opinions, but the interviewer is just a fucking lowly coward who didn't have the guts to say all those things to Card's face, and instead typed them up neatly and published them in a safe environment knowing Card wouldn't be allowed to respond. If she was as disgusted by Card as she claims - and don't get me wrong, she has every right to be - then she would have spoken out.
It's also hilarious how she hides her cowardice behind the excuse of journalism when she says journalists are supposed to hide their opinions. Lol, fucking tool.
Re: thread. Yeah, I think art should be separated from artist. I hate Britney Spears but she has a few catchy songs.
There. Ege thinks it's great. Another reason to not read it.
An author's views and opinions may show up in their work. They often don't. I'm more than willing to treat any text as detached and without baggage.
On the other hand, I have no problem with avoiding someone's work if I just don't want to give my money to an asshole. In that case I can buy things used or borrow them or whatever.
Trust me, I know, absolutely nothing. But I don't like stupid Mormon assholes.
Well at the very least you'll have the time to read it afterwards.
This has been pointed out as silly. Card writes some good fiction, I really think he's an excellent short story author. He has offensive as fuck views, but most really good artists are socially dysfunctional in one way or the other.
I find this akin to a child who covers their ears and yells so they won't hear it's bedtime.
Artists are people. Most people, to greater or lesser degrees, are fucking assholes. As an adult I have come to terms with this even if it displeases me. If I want to read, watch or listen to anything I pretty much have to accept this fact and move on. Without becoming socially dysfunctional I have to deal with assholes every time I leave my house. I could stay inside but then I'd just be an asshole by himself.
His attitude towards gays is pretty reprehensible, but other than that I found more dislikes toward the journalist than Card's attitude.
I dislike far left opinions just as much as far right, and he seemed to be overanalyzing far too much of Card's opinions.
Ugh.
I don't really care if it's silly or not. It doesn't have to be logical, it's just my preference. I don't want to praise a fucking dumbshit fundie asshole.
As far as anyone is concerned, you've already praised him by buying the book.
The Hell with what anyone else believes.
It just strikes me as odd. Like bitching that a tasty pie was baked by a homosexual. The baker's sexuality has no impact on the quality of the pie.
You can do as makes you happy and certainly nobody is perfectly logical on all things. So of course you're free to keep your irrational position with regard to Card's irrational positions. Yours is much easier to overlook.
I don't shop there anymore these days, since I found out the owner is a huge Bill O'Reilly fan.
I'm totally not a self-important douche.
You're a moron, then. Why the fuck should I go out of my way to find out anything about the authors or artists personal lives?
since when do you not prefer to be logical?
edit - I agree with mostly all of what drez has said and will continue to say.
That's awesome, throw out the insults while mischaracterizing my statements. Do you work for McCain by any chance?
Answer assuming you're not intent on being a raging douche: I didn't say you should go out of your way to find out things about authors. I said I find going out of your way to remain ignorant of these faults as childish. The faults will still exist and you'd still be supporting them except now you don't know what you're supporting. By preserving your ignorance you're just abdicating any responsibility you may have.
I can respect (even if I don't understand) not reading/supporting artists whose views you do not respect. I find sticking your head in the sand immature, ignoring the difficult question because you lack the conviction to make a choice.
They've all become synonyms for stupid.