On the list, I forgot about Andy Goode. He's alive in 2027, and yet he's dead in the present. Major paradox. Obviously, if Andy Goode is dead in 2008, then he's dead in 2027, which means that Derek would never have met him and never have known to shoot him.
This is the very reason I don't think it works as one timeline.
The very fact that we need the Novikoff principle to explain away paradoxes seems kind of base - it implies some kind of fate, which I'm not sure I like the idea of.
Consider the traditional loop of the grandfather paradox:
Andy has a son called Ben, Ben has a son called Chris. Chris goes back in time and kills Andy, who doesn't give birth to Ben and who doesn't give birth to Chris. Therefore Chris doesn't go back in time to kill Andy, so Andy has a son called Ben.
As we clearly have two timelines here (Andy killed/not killed by Chris) there's some second dimension of time, which contains multiple (in this example two) timelines. So the timeline dimension loops. Doesn't it make more sense instead to allow for change, and say that the timeline dimension is linear instead, and that new timelines are produced in linear fashion? I feel this explains the Terminator franchise better, with each new arrival spawning a new branch.
or maybe not. I don't care anyway. terminator makes fuck all sense.
I'm glad you've seen the light. Now, can you help me put this Legend of Zelda timeline together? Does Ocarina of Time come before or after Link's Awakening?
Schrodinger, DredZed, I like you guys. You clearly know the material well enough to understand all the problems present with making the timeline(s) consistent with itself/theirselves.
So then, without necessarily explaining the individual ramifications of the story, can either of you explain the rules of timetravel, as shown in this particular fiction?
I'd also like to see an explication of the rules (though I think such an explication is impossible, because of the lack of internal consistency in the Terminator universe's rules of time travel).
So Skynet in T1 is LIKELY the product of the first terminator's leftover chip the same way John is the son of Kyle Reese (sent back by himself in the future). So all of T1 is a closed time loop. Nothing changed.
What was the original date for Judgement Day in T1 and had it passed by T2?
In T2 they destroy all the terminator parts and all the work at cyberdyne. The ending is slightly ambiguous: either the destruction of all the precursors means they're successful and have prevented Skynet's formation thus changing the future, or they have been unsuccessful, and Skynet still forms another way. The latter option means that T2 could still be in the same timeline as T1
But T:SCC has spawned multiple alternate timelines by changing all sorts of dates and events, and we don't know why time was self consistent before, but spawns many worlds now. ? o_O
or maybe not. I don't care anyway. terminator makes fuck all sense.
I'm glad you've seen the light. Now, can you help me put this Legend of Zelda timeline together? Does Ocarina of Time come before or after Link's Awakening?
I actually saw a really good explanation of the terminator timeline that sort of made sense, but for it to work, for ANY of terminator to make sense, kyle can't originally have been john's father and sarah can't have trained him as a commando. since apparently there's some line about that in the original film, it doesn't make sense. so abandon sense. it is clear that it isn't even MEANT to make sense so trying to put a pattern on something that is clearly supposed to be patternless is a colossal waste of time.
The very fact that we need the Novikoff principle to explain away paradoxes seems kind of base - it implies some kind of fate, which I'm not sure I like the idea of.
That's a common misconception. Terminator has always been about fate -- it's just been about the fate that we make ourselves of our own free will. That, in contrast to "Skynet determined our fate in a microsecond." John Connor is destined to be the future leader of humanity, because he is willing to make that fate for himself.
The Novikoff theory simply gives a context. Judgement Day will happen because the heroes have been unable to do much to prevent it. John Connor won't die because they've put up a good fight.
As we clearly have two timelines here (Andy killed/not killed by Chris) there's some second dimension of time, which contains multiple (in this example two) timelines. So the timeline dimension loops. Doesn't it make more sense instead to allow for change, and say that the timeline dimension is linear instead, and that new timelines are produced in linear fashion? I feel this explains the Terminator franchise better, with each new arrival spawning a new branch.
I don't like branching timelines because it makes time travel meaningless. "By sending Derek back in time, we only altered a parallel timeline, rather than the current timeline." Great, you lost Derek, and some other timeline benefitted, but what did you have to gain from it?
Basically, you're saying that the John Connor that Kyle knew from the future that Kyle came from is different from the original JC, and that Kyle Reese created a self-contained loop.
Really, what's the point?
It's like saying that there was an "original" Marty McFly in the Back to the Future, who went back in time thanks to Doc Brown and who altered the timeline thus creating the "new" Marty McFly, who is the one we saw in the movie who then goes back in time and insures that his parents stay together. Sure, you can believe that. But what's the point? There's no evidence for it, no reason to believe in it, and it doesn't make the story any more satisfying.
Yes. I'm saying that, the very first time John sent Kyle back in time, it was a different John Connor. Subsequently, it was both John and Reese's actions that created the loop in which T-1 took place since Kyle replaced John's original father in every single new timeline since then.
I think BTTF timeline, if I remember correctly (not a big fan of the movies) was linear. So, Marty's parents not getting together would have led to Marty never existing as opposed to creating a new timeline in which he didn't exist, parallel to one in which he does exist. In contrast, I think the latter would have happened were Reese to have actually killed Fisher.
Really, it all depends which timeline we're following in the films and movies. SCC exists in a timeline that originated with T2, but not the one we've seen the future of in the previous two films. It's future is similar, but not quite the same.
Here's the start of a timeline chart I'm working on, I'll fill it out more later.
The very fact that we need the Novikoff principle to explain away paradoxes seems kind of base - it implies some kind of fate, which I'm not sure I like the idea of.
That's a common misconception. Terminator has always been about fate -- it's just been about the fate that we make ourselves of our own free will. That, in contrast to "Skynet determined our fate in a microsecond." John Connor is destined to be the future leader of humanity, because he is willing to make that fate for himself.
The Novikoff theory simply gives a context. Judgement Day will happen because the heroes have been unable to do much to prevent it. John Connor won't die because they've put up a good fight.
While, yes, one of the major themes in the show is fate, I don't think that means it should necessarily mean that the universe is somehow fixed and already written. Indeed, the major difference between time travel in T1 and T2 is the looping of T1 and the 'no fate but what we make' theme of T2 - which implies that timelines can indeed be changed.
Either way, I'd posit that fate as a theme's not so important to our analysis, given that, as with my point below, it's fate as observed by the charcters within the show, and humans are prone to looking for meaning where there isn't some.
As we clearly have two timelines here (Andy killed/not killed by Chris) there's some second dimension of time, which contains multiple (in this example two) timelines. So the timeline dimension loops. Doesn't it make more sense instead to allow for change, and say that the timeline dimension is linear instead, and that new timelines are produced in linear fashion? I feel this explains the Terminator franchise better, with each new arrival spawning a new branch.
I don't like branching timelines because it makes time travel meaningless. "By sending Derek back in time, we only altered a parallel timeline, rather than the current timeline." Great, you lost Derek, and some other timeline benefitted, but what did you have to gain from it?
Sure, branching's meaningless for those on the overwritten branch, but it's the opposite of meaningless for the greater good. And for those on the overwritten branch, they don't *know* it's meaningless. They probably think that once their guys in the past achieve their mission, that the world surrounding them will wash clean with some special effect as charred ruins turn into fields of butterflies. They don't realise that they (or this version of them) won't exist in the new timeline they create.
Generally, when you transition from a stand alone movie to a series, or even a stand alone movie to a sequel, you have to make some concessions on why the storyline that should have resolved itself is no longer being resolved.
So basically, the rules of time travel changed between the first movie and everything that came after. And that's fine, because the first movie was never written with future sequels or TV series in mind.
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
I don't like branching timelines because it makes time travel meaningless. "By sending Derek back in time, we only altered a parallel timeline, rather than the current timeline." Great, you lost Derek, and some other timeline benefitted, but what did you have to gain from it?
Except for Reese's observations last episode, I don't think the characters have even begun to grasp that they may be, by their actions, creating alternate timelines. When John sends Kyle back in time, he intends to save himself rather than another John Connor. The same with Skynet. I enjoy the futility of their efforts; it's sort of like in Night of the Living Dead when the black guy survives the zombie onslaught, only to be shot the next morning.
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
This is why I think my theory (above, in the graph) works - because it accomodates different rules by saying that in different iterations of Skynet, different time travel methods were used (and as mentioned in the notes there, I had a third rule, that of the loop time machine, until I decided to stick purely with branches.
Either way, I admire your approach. It seems that you and I are going at this from completely different directions, and trying to fit rules to those approaches is producing the differences of opinion. You've clearly put some good thought into this.
I don't like branching timelines because it makes time travel meaningless. "By sending Derek back in time, we only altered a parallel timeline, rather than the current timeline." Great, you lost Derek, and some other timeline benefitted, but what did you have to gain from it?
Except for Reese's observations last episode, I don't think the characters have even begun to grasp that they may be, by their actions, creating alternate timelines. When John sends Kyle back in time, he intends to save himself rather than another John Connor. The same with Skynet. I enjoy the futility of their efforts; it's sort of like in Night of the Living Dead when the black guy survives the zombie onslaught, only to be shot the next morning.
Well, what I mean is "branching timelines that co-exist in parallel." As opposed to a single timeline that gets modified.
Anyway, I think that Derek's problem was that up until now, you haven't really seen anyone unintentionally alter the timeline. Obviously, he killed Andy Goode, which changed things. But did killing Andy Goode somehow lead to Fisher? In the original timeline, Goode mentions being around when Skynet finally went crazy. Does that mean that the Turk hadn't been stolen from him in the original timeline? Did Skynet alter that?
That, and their unwillingness to admit that the Derej/Jesse in the present are different from the ones they fell in love with.
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
This is why I think my theory (above, in the graph) works - because it accomodates different rules by saying that in different iterations of Skynet, different time travel methods were used (and as mentioned in the notes there, I had a third rule, that of the loop time machine, until I decided to stick purely with branches.
Either way, I admire your approach. It seems that you and I are going at this from completely different directions, and trying to fit rules to those approaches is producing the differences of opinion. You've clearly put some good thought into this.
The thing is, I can't approve of any diagram that says that there was an "original" John, because that was never the intent of the script. In fact,t he original drafts make it even more blatant, by having Kyle basically say something along the lines of "Oh, I have no idea how you'll stop the machine. But John told me to tell you that when you're trapped in a factory and you see the following images, to make sure you press the button in time. I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that'll make sense later on."
If you're going to diagram, it'd be better just to say, "Here's Terminator 1. It follows the following set of rules. Then at some point between Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, God intervenes and he fundamentally changes the rules of time travel. 'God,' in this case being 'James Cameron.'"
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
This is why I think my theory (above, in the graph) works - because it accomodates different rules by saying that in different iterations of Skynet, different time travel methods were used (and as mentioned in the notes there, I had a third rule, that of the loop time machine, until I decided to stick purely with branches.
Either way, I admire your approach. It seems that you and I are going at this from completely different directions, and trying to fit rules to those approaches is producing the differences of opinion. You've clearly put some good thought into this.
The thing is, I can't approve of any diagram that says that there was an "original" John, because that was never the intent of the script. In fact,t he original drafts make it even more blatant, by having Kyle basically say something along the lines of "Oh, I have no idea how you'll stop the machine. But John told me to tell you that when you're trapped in a factory and you see the following images, to make sure you press the button in time. I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that'll make sense later on."
If you're going to diagram, it'd be better just to say, "Here's Terminator 1. It follows the following set of rules. Then at some point between Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, God intervenes and he fundamentally changes the rules of time travel. 'God,' in this case being 'James Cameron.'"
OK, so you'd be happy with this as the start?:
It allows for both rules of time travel to exist concurrently, without fucking up anything later on.
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
This is why I think my theory (above, in the graph) works - because it accomodates different rules by saying that in different iterations of Skynet, different time travel methods were used (and as mentioned in the notes there, I had a third rule, that of the loop time machine, until I decided to stick purely with branches.
Either way, I admire your approach. It seems that you and I are going at this from completely different directions, and trying to fit rules to those approaches is producing the differences of opinion. You've clearly put some good thought into this.
The thing is, I can't approve of any diagram that says that there was an "original" John, because that was never the intent of the script. In fact,t he original drafts make it even more blatant, by having Kyle basically say something along the lines of "Oh, I have no idea how you'll stop the machine. But John told me to tell you that when you're trapped in a factory and you see the following images, to make sure you press the button in time. I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that'll make sense later on."
If you're going to diagram, it'd be better just to say, "Here's Terminator 1. It follows the following set of rules. Then at some point between Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, God intervenes and he fundamentally changes the rules of time travel. 'God,' in this case being 'James Cameron.'"
This. T1 is a closed time loop. T2 changes the rules and allows them to change the future. They retain this ability in T:SCC but we have no way of knowing when this is occurring.
or maybe not. I don't care anyway. terminator makes fuck all sense.
I'm glad you've seen the light. Now, can you help me put this Legend of Zelda timeline together? Does Ocarina of Time come before or after Link's Awakening?
Ok, I'll concede that JC sent his father back to save SC in T-1, thus leading to his creation.
However, I just can't buy the notion that there never was an original JC fathered by an unnamed man. This JC1 no longer exists, of course, but he would have been the one that sent Kyle back which led to JC1 ceasing to exist, replaced by JC2 whose father was Kyle. Following this one incident, there would from that point on be the paradox of John Connor creating himself by sending his father back in time. Of course, I'm stretching my mind as much around this idea as I possibly can. So I admit that, like the notion of infinity, I just may not be able to mentally grasp this sort of time paradox.
To help you wrap your mind around time travel/timelines/etc, try to stop thinking that one "ceases" to exist and another takes his place. They both exist, just in different timelines, and everything just depends which you're looking at :0)
EDIT: This won't explain the Terminator timelines really, but helps explain time travel in general.
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
Ok, I'll concede that JC sent his father back to save SC in T-1, thus leading to his creation.
However, I just can't buy the notion that there never was an original JC fathered by an unnamed man. This JC1 no longer exists, of course, but he would have been the one that sent Kyle back which led to JC1 ceasing to exist, replaced by JC2 whose father was Kyle. Following this one incident, there would from that point on be the paradox of John Connor creating himself by sending his father back in time. Of course, I'm stretching my mind as much around this idea as I possibly can. So I admit that, like the notion of infinity, I just may not be able to mentally grasp this sort of time paradox.
To help you wrap your mind around time travel/timelines/etc, try to stop thinking that one "ceases" to exist and another takes his place. They both exist, just in different timelines, and everything just depends which you're looking at :0)
EDIT: This won't explain the Terminator timelines really, but helps explain time travel in general.
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
They probably don't know that it doesn't affect their timeline. Also, they may think "I'd be willing to sacrifice the ME now in this timeline, to be a ME who hasn't been through war."
hasn't cameron lied about things before? Maybe she said she could tell they were lying to put more weight on her side. I mean, all she could really get from touch would be pulse rate / sweat factor ? So its more of a very educated guess anyway.
Well, when she did it to John he was sitting in the kitchen or something in a relaxed situation. Ellison just got repeatedly tossed across the room, so I think pulse/sweat would have some additional factors to account for. :P
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
I don't really understand what you'd expect could happen though? You'd send somebody back and then go hide in a bunker and the moment they "fixed" things suddenly the ruined landscape would transform into a beautiful world where humans existed peacefully for the last 100 years and your bunker is actually somebody's basement? If time travel were possible you've got to imagine that there's no way it's physically possible for suddenly your world to just transform like that. The "fixed" world would be a totally separate place in spacetime, logically it just has to be.
You're not fixing things for bad-future-you, that's impossible. If you really want bad-future-you to live in a "fixed" world you'd have to send somebody back to fix it, then leave the bad-future timeline and get to the good-future timeline. You could then kill good-future-you and take his place :0) If not you'll have to settle for knowing that you fixed things for another instance of you in a different timeline, hehe.
Anybody else miss John & Cameron in high school? I thought it would turn into a Buffy kinda series but didn't. Cameron's interaction with the other students was awesome!
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
I don't really understand what you'd expect could happen though? You'd send somebody back and then go hide in a bunker and the moment they "fixed" things suddenly the ruined landscape would transform into a beautiful world where humans existed peacefully for the last 100 years and your bunker is actually somebody's basement? If time travel were possible you've got to imagine that there's no way it's physically possible for suddenly your world to just transform like that. The "fixed" world would be a totally separate place in spacetime, logically it just has to be.
You're not fixing things for bad-future-you, that's impossible. If you really want bad-future-you to live in a "fixed" world you'd have to send somebody back to fix it, then leave the bad-future timeline and get to the good-future timeline. You could then kill good-future-you and take his place :0) If not you'll have to settle for knowing that you fixed things for another instance of you in a different timeline, hehe.
John Connor wasn't sending people back to stop the future (initially), he was sending people back to prevent the terminator changing the timeline. When really if it had "changed" something he'd have no time to react. And if it hadn't changed something (branched off), he could have ignored it. Why waste the soldiers in such a critical war?
Anybody else miss John & Cameron in high school? I thought it would turn into a Buffy kinda series but didn't. Cameron's interaction with the other students was awesome!
It's tight!
Yeah, I do miss the "Cameron interacts with humans" comedy. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much this season. It seemed like I laughed a lot more during season 1.
I'm not complaining, though. Show is still awesome.
What's the difference between an android and a cyborg in this series? Does a cyborg become an android when it puts on its skin and appears human or is it still a cyborg?
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
I don't really understand what you'd expect could happen though? You'd send somebody back and then go hide in a bunker and the moment they "fixed" things suddenly the ruined landscape would transform into a beautiful world where humans existed peacefully for the last 100 years and your bunker is actually somebody's basement? If time travel were possible you've got to imagine that there's no way it's physically possible for suddenly your world to just transform like that. The "fixed" world would be a totally separate place in spacetime, logically it just has to be.
You're not fixing things for bad-future-you, that's impossible. If you really want bad-future-you to live in a "fixed" world you'd have to send somebody back to fix it, then leave the bad-future timeline and get to the good-future timeline. You could then kill good-future-you and take his place :0) If not you'll have to settle for knowing that you fixed things for another instance of you in a different timeline, hehe.
John Connor wasn't sending people back to stop the future (initially), he was sending people back to prevent the terminator changing the timeline. When really if it had "changed" something he'd have no time to react. And if it hadn't changed something (branched off), he could have ignored it. Why waste the soldiers in such a critical war?
There is no loss of critical soldiers. At least in T1 and T2 Skynet had already lost the war, and sent back The Terminator to kill Sarah Connor in a last ditch attempt to save itself. Kyle Reese was then sent back to stop The Terminator and the time machine facilities destroyed. Presumably after Kyle left but before they destroyed the time facilities, the resistance discovered that Skynet sent back the T-1000 to 1995 and sent The Terminator from T-2 back to stop it (assuming T1 and T2 are even the same timeline).
The question is where do all these random time agents from T:SCC come from? Seems like instead of fighting a future war Skynet is just sending terminators back to covertly replace everyone in 2008 california.
Skynet lost. But it knows it cant fuck with the original timeline or itll destroy itself before it can fuck with future timelines.
The rest seems to be a case of making a better version of itself in the past so that it won't lose, gaining hold of better technologies and facilities to weaken the future resistance and improve its own abilities and help win the war.
What's the difference between an android and a cyborg in this series? Does a cyborg become an android when it puts on its skin and appears human or is it still a cyborg?
Arnie called himself a cybernetic organism (cyborg) so with the flesh on at least. But I don't think the definition of android (as I understand it) would relate to the skeleton. Bishops an android but I think skelminators are just robots.
I think an android has to resemble a human. Terminator cyborgs are pretty much androids, cyborgs need to be part organic (the skin is organic I guess it sort of fits the bill).
Anybody else miss John & Cameron in high school? I thought it would turn into a Buffy kinda series but didn't. Cameron's interaction with the other students was awesome!
It's tight!
Reasonable reaction:
I much prefer the show when it focuses on the important task at hand; ensuring Skynet doesnt nuke the planet, rather than robot/human social interation.
The way I look at this show, both John and Skynet are the product of paradox.
Neither one can exist in an "original", unaltered timeline that didn't involve someone going back and dicking with something.
The existence of John Connor and the existence of Skynet are basically tied together, and yet each is trying to destroy the other.
In the first film, John and Skynet both use time travel to try to affect the existence of John Connor. Skynet goes back to try to stop John from existing, John sends back Kyle Reese specifically to make sure he himself will come into existence.
In th second film, it's like that again... but something changes. They decide to try to destroy Skynet instead, only to learn Skynet itself wouldn't have existed had it not sent back something in the future.
So now both Skynet and John are involved in some kind of complicated time war where they have moved past trying to just write each other out as a primary objective, and are instead trying to use time travel to improve themselves. John uses things like the Four Horsemen to set up supplies and assistence for himself in the future, and Skynet has Terminators it is sending back now to do more than kill John Connor, like the Terminator who was supposed to blow up the nuke plant, or the one trying to kill Martin Bidell.
Weaver, too, is another possibility that Skynet isn't just trying to eliminate its nemesis, it is also trying to improve itself.
So I think that's an interesting direction for the show to take.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2008
I still prefer the idea, even though it's technically unworkable, that we're looking at it backwards. Why would Skynet, if it became more advanced, send a T-800 to the past? The hint's in the opening narration for the first film: the T-800 is a last-ditch effort. Skynet can't afford a more useful soldier to be sent, as it has its hands full with Connor. But it also knows that a T-800 should be effective, and that Connor will never be more vulnerable. The T-800 is Skynet's final attempt to take out John Connor before the human resistance finally wins. The termination attempts are farther in the future the earlier Skynet sent them, because it had the resources then. It would also likely want to minimize damage to the timeline and so send them to closer points in the timestream where it would be easier to predict the results.
But again, that just doesn't work.
Anyway, I love this show. The past few episodes were awesometastic.
So I've been watching this show since the pilot and its amazing how far its come. Our Initial reason for viewinig was
"The DVR isn't recording anything else, the termnitaror and Johns mom are hot!"
THat upgraded to
"Its not bad. Some of the story is kinda cool, some decent action scense"
But somewhere in season one and definately season 2, I'm actually diggng the story, and everything else is just the icing on the cake.
"Its a pretty cool show, interesting characters, good plot, oh and theres some hotties on the show"
I really hope the threats of cancellation stop so the writers can finish what their going for, because it seems like they know what their doing right now.
Why does Fox keep picking up sci-fi shows if they're just going to cancel them the second the ratings dip? Are they throwing spaghetti at a wall and seeing what sticks, hoping for another X-Files blockbuster?
Why does Fox keep picking up sci-fi shows if they're just going to cancel them the second the ratings dip? Are they throwing spaghetti at a wall and seeing what sticks, hoping for another X-Files blockbuster?
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This is the very reason I don't think it works as one timeline.
The very fact that we need the Novikoff principle to explain away paradoxes seems kind of base - it implies some kind of fate, which I'm not sure I like the idea of.
Consider the traditional loop of the grandfather paradox:
Andy has a son called Ben, Ben has a son called Chris. Chris goes back in time and kills Andy, who doesn't give birth to Ben and who doesn't give birth to Chris. Therefore Chris doesn't go back in time to kill Andy, so Andy has a son called Ben.
As we clearly have two timelines here (Andy killed/not killed by Chris) there's some second dimension of time, which contains multiple (in this example two) timelines. So the timeline dimension loops. Doesn't it make more sense instead to allow for change, and say that the timeline dimension is linear instead, and that new timelines are produced in linear fashion? I feel this explains the Terminator franchise better, with each new arrival spawning a new branch.
I'm glad you've seen the light. Now, can you help me put this Legend of Zelda timeline together? Does Ocarina of Time come before or after Link's Awakening?
I'd also like to see an explication of the rules (though I think such an explication is impossible, because of the lack of internal consistency in the Terminator universe's rules of time travel).
So Skynet in T1 is LIKELY the product of the first terminator's leftover chip the same way John is the son of Kyle Reese (sent back by himself in the future). So all of T1 is a closed time loop. Nothing changed.
What was the original date for Judgement Day in T1 and had it passed by T2?
In T2 they destroy all the terminator parts and all the work at cyberdyne. The ending is slightly ambiguous: either the destruction of all the precursors means they're successful and have prevented Skynet's formation thus changing the future, or they have been unsuccessful, and Skynet still forms another way. The latter option means that T2 could still be in the same timeline as T1
But T:SCC has spawned multiple alternate timelines by changing all sorts of dates and events, and we don't know why time was self consistent before, but spawns many worlds now. ? o_O
I actually saw a really good explanation of the terminator timeline that sort of made sense, but for it to work, for ANY of terminator to make sense, kyle can't originally have been john's father and sarah can't have trained him as a commando. since apparently there's some line about that in the original film, it doesn't make sense. so abandon sense. it is clear that it isn't even MEANT to make sense so trying to put a pattern on something that is clearly supposed to be patternless is a colossal waste of time.
That's a common misconception. Terminator has always been about fate -- it's just been about the fate that we make ourselves of our own free will. That, in contrast to "Skynet determined our fate in a microsecond." John Connor is destined to be the future leader of humanity, because he is willing to make that fate for himself.
The Novikoff theory simply gives a context. Judgement Day will happen because the heroes have been unable to do much to prevent it. John Connor won't die because they've put up a good fight.
I don't like branching timelines because it makes time travel meaningless. "By sending Derek back in time, we only altered a parallel timeline, rather than the current timeline." Great, you lost Derek, and some other timeline benefitted, but what did you have to gain from it?
Yes. I'm saying that, the very first time John sent Kyle back in time, it was a different John Connor. Subsequently, it was both John and Reese's actions that created the loop in which T-1 took place since Kyle replaced John's original father in every single new timeline since then.
I think BTTF timeline, if I remember correctly (not a big fan of the movies) was linear. So, Marty's parents not getting together would have led to Marty never existing as opposed to creating a new timeline in which he didn't exist, parallel to one in which he does exist. In contrast, I think the latter would have happened were Reese to have actually killed Fisher.
Here's the start of a timeline chart I'm working on, I'll fill it out more later.
While, yes, one of the major themes in the show is fate, I don't think that means it should necessarily mean that the universe is somehow fixed and already written. Indeed, the major difference between time travel in T1 and T2 is the looping of T1 and the 'no fate but what we make' theme of T2 - which implies that timelines can indeed be changed.
Either way, I'd posit that fate as a theme's not so important to our analysis, given that, as with my point below, it's fate as observed by the charcters within the show, and humans are prone to looking for meaning where there isn't some.
Sure, branching's meaningless for those on the overwritten branch, but it's the opposite of meaningless for the greater good. And for those on the overwritten branch, they don't *know* it's meaningless. They probably think that once their guys in the past achieve their mission, that the world surrounding them will wash clean with some special effect as charred ruins turn into fields of butterflies. They don't realise that they (or this version of them) won't exist in the new timeline they create.
So basically, the rules of time travel changed between the first movie and everything that came after. And that's fine, because the first movie was never written with future sequels or TV series in mind.
Stop trying to get them to follow the same rules, and you'll find fewer problems.
Except for Reese's observations last episode, I don't think the characters have even begun to grasp that they may be, by their actions, creating alternate timelines. When John sends Kyle back in time, he intends to save himself rather than another John Connor. The same with Skynet. I enjoy the futility of their efforts; it's sort of like in Night of the Living Dead when the black guy survives the zombie onslaught, only to be shot the next morning.
This is why I think my theory (above, in the graph) works - because it accomodates different rules by saying that in different iterations of Skynet, different time travel methods were used (and as mentioned in the notes there, I had a third rule, that of the loop time machine, until I decided to stick purely with branches.
Either way, I admire your approach. It seems that you and I are going at this from completely different directions, and trying to fit rules to those approaches is producing the differences of opinion. You've clearly put some good thought into this.
Well, what I mean is "branching timelines that co-exist in parallel." As opposed to a single timeline that gets modified.
Anyway, I think that Derek's problem was that up until now, you haven't really seen anyone unintentionally alter the timeline. Obviously, he killed Andy Goode, which changed things. But did killing Andy Goode somehow lead to Fisher? In the original timeline, Goode mentions being around when Skynet finally went crazy. Does that mean that the Turk hadn't been stolen from him in the original timeline? Did Skynet alter that?
That, and their unwillingness to admit that the Derej/Jesse in the present are different from the ones they fell in love with.
The thing is, I can't approve of any diagram that says that there was an "original" John, because that was never the intent of the script. In fact,t he original drafts make it even more blatant, by having Kyle basically say something along the lines of "Oh, I have no idea how you'll stop the machine. But John told me to tell you that when you're trapped in a factory and you see the following images, to make sure you press the button in time. I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that'll make sense later on."
If you're going to diagram, it'd be better just to say, "Here's Terminator 1. It follows the following set of rules. Then at some point between Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, God intervenes and he fundamentally changes the rules of time travel. 'God,' in this case being 'James Cameron.'"
OK, so you'd be happy with this as the start?:
It allows for both rules of time travel to exist concurrently, without fucking up anything later on.
This. T1 is a closed time loop. T2 changes the rules and allows them to change the future. They retain this ability in T:SCC but we have no way of knowing when this is occurring.
Before.
You'd be surprised.
The problem I have with branches existing simultaneously, is that you can never affect your own timeline. By definition, any change will occur on a new branch that has nothing to do with you. Which means that it actively hurts you by sending people back. They won't affect your timeline, and you lose useful soldiers/resources for no gain.
Well, when she did it to John he was sitting in the kitchen or something in a relaxed situation. Ellison just got repeatedly tossed across the room, so I think pulse/sweat would have some additional factors to account for. :P
I don't really understand what you'd expect could happen though? You'd send somebody back and then go hide in a bunker and the moment they "fixed" things suddenly the ruined landscape would transform into a beautiful world where humans existed peacefully for the last 100 years and your bunker is actually somebody's basement? If time travel were possible you've got to imagine that there's no way it's physically possible for suddenly your world to just transform like that. The "fixed" world would be a totally separate place in spacetime, logically it just has to be.
You're not fixing things for bad-future-you, that's impossible. If you really want bad-future-you to live in a "fixed" world you'd have to send somebody back to fix it, then leave the bad-future timeline and get to the good-future timeline. You could then kill good-future-you and take his place :0) If not you'll have to settle for knowing that you fixed things for another instance of you in a different timeline, hehe.
John Connor wasn't sending people back to stop the future (initially), he was sending people back to prevent the terminator changing the timeline. When really if it had "changed" something he'd have no time to react. And if it hadn't changed something (branched off), he could have ignored it. Why waste the soldiers in such a critical war?
Yeah, I do miss the "Cameron interacts with humans" comedy. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much this season. It seemed like I laughed a lot more during season 1.
I'm not complaining, though. Show is still awesome.
There is no loss of critical soldiers. At least in T1 and T2 Skynet had already lost the war, and sent back The Terminator to kill Sarah Connor in a last ditch attempt to save itself. Kyle Reese was then sent back to stop The Terminator and the time machine facilities destroyed. Presumably after Kyle left but before they destroyed the time facilities, the resistance discovered that Skynet sent back the T-1000 to 1995 and sent The Terminator from T-2 back to stop it (assuming T1 and T2 are even the same timeline).
The question is where do all these random time agents from T:SCC come from? Seems like instead of fighting a future war Skynet is just sending terminators back to covertly replace everyone in 2008 california.
The rest seems to be a case of making a better version of itself in the past so that it won't lose, gaining hold of better technologies and facilities to weaken the future resistance and improve its own abilities and help win the war.
Arnie called himself a cybernetic organism (cyborg) so with the flesh on at least. But I don't think the definition of android (as I understand it) would relate to the skeleton. Bishops an android but I think skelminators are just robots.
Reasonable reaction:
I much prefer the show when it focuses on the important task at hand; ensuring Skynet doesnt nuke the planet, rather than robot/human social interation.
Unreasonable reaction:
Neither one can exist in an "original", unaltered timeline that didn't involve someone going back and dicking with something.
The existence of John Connor and the existence of Skynet are basically tied together, and yet each is trying to destroy the other.
In the first film, John and Skynet both use time travel to try to affect the existence of John Connor. Skynet goes back to try to stop John from existing, John sends back Kyle Reese specifically to make sure he himself will come into existence.
In th second film, it's like that again... but something changes. They decide to try to destroy Skynet instead, only to learn Skynet itself wouldn't have existed had it not sent back something in the future.
So now both Skynet and John are involved in some kind of complicated time war where they have moved past trying to just write each other out as a primary objective, and are instead trying to use time travel to improve themselves. John uses things like the Four Horsemen to set up supplies and assistence for himself in the future, and Skynet has Terminators it is sending back now to do more than kill John Connor, like the Terminator who was supposed to blow up the nuke plant, or the one trying to kill Martin Bidell.
Weaver, too, is another possibility that Skynet isn't just trying to eliminate its nemesis, it is also trying to improve itself.
So I think that's an interesting direction for the show to take.
But again, that just doesn't work.
Anyway, I love this show. The past few episodes were awesometastic.
"You see a tortoise in the desert, lying on its back. You're not helping, why?"
I dig the little general sci-fi references in this show.
I didn't catch that. That's awesome. Who wrote that ep, and what else have they done?
"The DVR isn't recording anything else, the termnitaror and Johns mom are hot!"
THat upgraded to
"Its not bad. Some of the story is kinda cool, some decent action scense"
But somewhere in season one and definately season 2, I'm actually diggng the story, and everything else is just the icing on the cake.
"Its a pretty cool show, interesting characters, good plot, oh and theres some hotties on the show"
I really hope the threats of cancellation stop so the writers can finish what their going for, because it seems like they know what their doing right now.
that is exactly the case