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Athiests and Offensiveness
Emanon
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So there is controversy this Christmas (Happy Holidays) season regarding atheists sharing their views however the manner they do so has a few people irked, and understandably so.
Next to the nativity scene at the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington is a sign that in my view is very offensive. To me, it's the equivalent of a sign saying 'All non-Christians will burn in Hell!!' Nothing wrong with that as it's free speech but I don't think either is appropriate in this setting.
I'm agnostic and I don't like anyone telling me my beliefs are wrong and won't push my religious view onto others either. I don't care what religion you are as long you're not hurting anyone really.
Atheists take aim at Christmas
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/05/atheists.christmas/index.html
So, let's discuss. Is this atheist group a new form of dick headed religious fanaticism?
Next to the nativity scene at the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington is a sign that in my view is very offensive. To me, it's the equivalent of a sign saying 'All non-Christians will burn in Hell!!' Nothing wrong with that as it's free speech but I don't think either is appropriate in this setting.
I'm agnostic and I don't like anyone telling me my beliefs are wrong and won't push my religious view onto others either. I don't care what religion you are as long you're not hurting anyone really.
Atheists take aim at Christmas
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/05/atheists.christmas/index.html
So, let's discuss. Is this atheist group a new form of dick headed religious fanaticism?
Emanon on
Treats Animals Right!
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Edit: Also one of my posts got bottomfed so I would like people to read it.
Crazy that the sign can be pulled down as an unrecognized form of protest(maybe) since it may not have been approved. Or you could just say "hey this wasn't approved so it has to come down, try being nice next time."
Shit, really? And I just thought it was sort of pretty. I didn't know I was making a political statement.
What sort of exclusivist, hegemonic message am I conveying when I plant daisies in my front yard?
Seriously, though, equating a Christmas decoration with a sign that effectively says, "Dude, fuck you and your Christmas and your phony-baloney God" is sort of... retarded beyond belief.
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
How is putting up a nativity not saying that Jesus absolutely existed, was divine and the son of the Judeo-Christian god? I could cop out and say that the plaque is just a show of faith to, of "faith" that god doesn't exist, but I'm not, because that's not what it is. If you have faith that Jesus was divine and all that stuff, how is that not also true for me? How can my or any other understanding of the universe coexist with that? You can't hold out one hand and say, "What you believe is fine by me," but close another by believing in an exclusivistic religion.
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, while representing the largest chunk of religions in the world, are not the only ones and within those religions are denominations and sects which are not exclusive or "harden hearts and enslave minds".
So that sign is a blatant and over-reactionary attack on everyone religious ever rather than a protest sign against the nativity being on public property or a celebration of the natural world, both of which would've been appropriate Atheist responses to this.
under that arguement christmas should not be a federal holiday.
ill concede that on that day, you cant have religious symbolism pertaining to the holiday on said government property.
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
Well maybe in your country religion is a personal choice that doesn't cause harm outside the practitioner. In America, religious organizations are a driving force for intolerance and political dickery.
And a nativity scene is a blatant attack on every other religion. "Our mythology is correct." It's not correct for them, it's just correct. It is not compatible with other world views.
By not being a prick.
I believe lots of things some of my friends don't. I have differing religious views than most of them. I have differing political views. I have different tastes in music, film, and art.
I have differing views on controversial subjects like abortion, pornography, execution by the state, military rules of engagement, etc.
On many of these views I believe I am absolutely correct in my viewpoint.
And yet, somehow, I manage to maintain friendships with people who I ultimately believe are wrong about these things.
How do I do that? By not being a prick about it!
It's not even hard. You just have to stop being a whiny, shouting jerk-off everytime someone says or does something you disagree with. And even when you do take the moment to make clear your disagreement, you don't snarl and hiss and over-react, you simply say "Well, that's not what I believe".
But maybe that's just me, dude!
Because there is a level of faith involved. I would deride any religious individual who thought they could prove the existence of God, because that's missing the point. People believe in their God, and believe he exists, but unless you know the intentions of the people who erected this scene you don't know whether they simply believe in God, or have a complete and unfounded certainty that he exists at the expense of those who don't believe.
What I am saying is, this nativity scene does not necessarily say "God exists, anybody who doesn't think so can burn in Hell". It's just celebrating the birth of their messiah.
im agreeing with ElJeffe here.
Christmas shouldn't be a federal holiday.
However, most cultures have a celebration of some kind around the time of the winter solstice, so having a federal holiday of some kind at that time is fine by me. The fact that we officially call it Christmas is a relic of less multi-cultural or culturally sensitive times, and I'm not particularly offended by it, especially given that North America is, in fact, mostly made up of Christians.
no its an implied attack. much like when you decide to eat oranges you are secretly saying that you prefer oranges over apples and that apples are therefore much worse than oranges. but of course thats assuming you didn't just feel like eating an orange...
Instead of minimizing the influence religion has on a person's ordinary ability to think rationally by promoting rational thinking in a positive way they must erase religion because any irrational thought whatsoever is unacceptable.
It's unfortunate and sad that a compromise cannot be made.
Look, far be it from me to defend Wonder_Hippie when he goes off on one of his tears, and I think the sign was retardo, but don't you think that maybe the fact that you think that a nativity scene is as innocuous as "planting daises" might have something to do with the fact that it's what you're personally used to? I don't like the idea of devout Jews paying a visit to the government office - their government office, let us not forget - and seeing a big display basically announcing "THIS PLACE IS NOT FOR YOU".
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
At least the statement from the governor's office suggests that their reasoning is in the right place:
They are usually thinking "Everyone will appreciate this sign of how much we love God and believe in Jesus." That assumption is insensitive and a bit grating, because a large number of people don't believe in Jesus or God or the nativity. It's the assumption that they are the centre, that they are the norm, that they are the default, and that this is in fact the way it should be.
And ultimately, this is your problem, Wonder_Hippie. You have shown a consistent inability to tolerate any viewpoint or belief that is diametrically opposed to what you believe. In your view, a person cannot adequately express a statement of belief that is directly opposed to yours without additionally creating the statement that yours is not to be tolerated.
You see the entire world in black-and-white in this respect. Because of this, you have an overwhelming tendency to react with anger and vitriol when opinions and viewpoints and displays are expressed that directly contradict what you believe to be true.
And you consider it absolutely unacceptable for a person to express these views or displays unless they have the full ability to objectively and rigorously support the validity of their beliefs.
You also consider it perfectly acceptable to take such an expression as an insult and to feel that it is an appropriate response to react offensively to these expressions, and that such reactions should not be considered negative or rude because you believe they are "factually correct".
All of these traits I have highlighted here are also found in religious fanatics.
That should give you pause, but knowing you, it unfortunately won't.
and thats fine really, the fact is that federal holidays probably shouldnt be based on religious holidays (though they can be on the same day simply be renaming christmas as xmas or solstice-day or snowy-gift-giving-with-pine-trees-day). but until they are i look at the nativity scene as nothing more than a widely accepted decoration for a federal holiday displayed on a government building.
Now, Pony, the difference - and I can't believe I'm having to clarify this yet again - between politics and subjective tastes is that they aren't statements about ultimate reality. If god exists, god exists for everybody by almost all definitions. Comparing it to liking this album over that one or liking oranges over apples isn't valid because those are subjective god damned tastes that you aren't saying are true for everybody. If you are, you're an idiot. "Oranges are better than apples objectively" is a stupid statement, right? Religions necessarily make claims about objective reality.
Edit: Yeah, and the sign was worded in a jerky way. So what? A government building isn't the place for displays of religion or attacks on religion. People can put up their nativity scenes and their atheist signs on their own property, or their church's property, but a government building ought to be neutral.
There is the matter of whether or not this should be in a public area. I think it shouldn't unless every other religion is given the chance to put up their own display, but I think the displays should have a neutral or positive message.
And no, nativity scenes do not have a "fuck you you're burning in Hell" underlying message.
But they're not even thinking that, a lot of the time. They're thinking, "Yay, Christmas, let's bust out the pretties!" Some people are, perhaps, making a statement. Those people are kinda silly. But I see no evidence to believe that's the norm.
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
im really hoping you're not saying you can read minds here or that you have had intimate discussions with people who put up these schenes...
The whole time I was thinking what can I put up in the state capitol building to represent agnostics and our winter solstice. Nothing came to mind that didn't seem like a dickish move. Unfortunately that sign seems kind of assholish. Like, hey we know this is suppose to be the time of the year you Christians actually act Christ-Like but we're going to snub our noses at that idea.
Of course just now, and I have no idea why this didn't occur to me earlier, I thought it would be neat to put together a timeline/informational posters of winter solstice celebrations. It would look cheap next to the $7,000 each marble statues this guy had made for the nativity but oh well.
Are these particular atheists too shrill? Maybe! Is this the same disingenuous offended hand-wringing atheists get when they make any public statement of disbelief? Yes. Yawn.
I am really liking all of your nice generalizations but I do not understand what they have to do with the real world, where people do not always conform to these generalizations. If you would like, I invite you to finish fabricating this fictional world you believe in so you might be able to use it in a hypothetical situation in order to argue your point. I personally dislike hypotheticals but you are welcome to them.
Oh, I don't think a nativity scene is secular. And I can understand the argument to keep them away from official state buildings (though I have a hard time giving much of a shit one way or the other). I'm just arguing against the idea that they are necessarily a statement of anything.
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
However, that doesn't mean that the people who put up the scene are not responsible for the interpretations and perceptions general passersby get from seeing the scene on their lawn or whatever.
When I see a nativity scene on someone's lawn, I'm going to naturally assume that the owners of said lawn are Christians, and somewhat devout ones as well. I do not think this is an unreasonable assumption to make. From what Jeffe said there obivously are people that put up nativities for aesthetic reasons alone, apart from spirituality, but that doesn't make it any less of a religious image.
EDIT: I'd also like to make it clear that in criticizing the nativity scene I am not defending the plaque. That was retarded of them to put up. It also is inherently anti-Christian in that it mentions heaven and hell and angels and devils, all of which are very clearly Christian images.
I wish more people would realize that it's supposed to be atheism, not achristianity.
Why don't you enlighten us, then?
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
Perhaps they get a knee-jerk negative reaction because most of the time, when they make a public statement, it's as ham-fistedly derogatory as this one.
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
However I do agree that the wording on the plaque is unfortunate.
No, you really just don't get it. These religions make claims about objective reality. It is necessarily true for me as well. That's a fucking fact. Fuck tolerance, I don't give two shits what they say, because saying that they tolerate your beliefs and then believing in a necessarily exclusivistic religion with statements about an objective reality that affects every single particle in the fucking universe means that they are saying I am wrong whether it's explicit or implicit. That's how this fucking shit works. I'll tolerate somebody enjoying, say, the movie Troy, BECAUSE THAT'S FUCKING SUBJECTIVE.
Why do you think that is?
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
Making these assumptions because say, the church claims that Christianity is the one and only truth, is silly because there are a lot of Christians who don't place a lot of importance on every part of the Bible or every thing that the Church has said in its long history.
You can't know the intentions of the people who put up this scene without asking them. Taking a guess based on what the Church thinks or the Bible says doesn't work because of how few people actually follow both of those things to the letter.