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SFC Monti Does Not Deserve the MOH
Rent
I'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
I'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
I dunno if you guys are aware, but I'm pretty fucking furious over who got recently awarded the Medal of Honor (highest military decoration in the military) posthumously. Sergeant First Class Jared C. Monti's actions do not warrant a Medal of Honor, and I would go so far as to say giving such is a dangerous trend to set.
Reasons why I think this MOH is fucking bullshit:
Reason the First: SFC Monti's actions were the exact opposite of what one should do in a combat situation, as taught as early as BCT for soldiers.
I remember when I went through Basic, learning of bound and overwatch and how to handle small arms fire. "Now, let's say your buddy goes down whilst attempting to secure a perimeter/defend an emplaced position/bound and overwatch to your objective, and there's smalls arms fire going off from OpFor. He's out in the open. What do you do?" the Drill Sergeant asked my cycle.
Uh, well, that's obvious. Go back and get him.
"GET DOWN!" he yelled. Whilst we were in the front leaning rest, he explained. "No, privates, you don't do stupid bullshit like that. You return fucking fire and ensure the situation is safe to retrieve your buddy before you do some stupid hero bullshit like that. Why? Because if you go running out like a dumbass with bullets whizzing by, the best you'll get is yourself killed, and now there's two fucking bodies your buddies are gonna have to deal with."
This is basic fucking training, here, folks. This is shit you 're taught from the beginning, drummed into your head that you do not under any circumstances do the "save him, be a hero" bullshit, because there's a good chances you'll just actively make the situation worse. This dude was a SFC-an E-7!- and he ignored this shit. That's at least 10 years of service under your belt, and he ignored everything he knew to do the dumbass thing. And he got his ass shot and killed, the exact fucking reason you don't do stupid shit like this.
Reason the Second: What the fuck, he's a fucking SFC, that's a goddamn leadership role, what the fuck is he doing a lower enlisted job.
This one's pretty important. He's a goddamn SFC, that's platoon-level and higher leadership. Why the fuck is he doing something an E-4 and below would do? There's a logical limit to the mentality of "I wouldn't make my soldiers do something I wouldn't do myself" and that time was it. He's a fucking SFC, in charge of 15 other lives, receiving grenades, small arms, and RPGs from over 60 other motherfuckers, a nearly 4:1 ratio. At times like this, your soldiers desperately need leadership. You shouldn't be playing the fucking hero. When he got his dumb ass shot and killed, he directly endangered the lives of all the soldiers under his command, and that's fucking unacceptable.
The worst part is is he probably knew what he was doing was fucking retarded but he did it anyway. (He reportedly tossed the handmike (which was being used to call for air support, which is pretty fucking essential it gets handled right for a whole number of different reasons, the least of which being so air support doesn't accidentally shoot you) to someone else and said "You're Chaos 35 (their call sign)". The level of stupidity inherent in such an action is astounding to me).
I talked to my section chief (who holds pretty much the same opinion as me) on this subject, and he brought an interesting anecdote to the proceedings: When he was deployed the first time to Iraq, in train-up, they briefed him and other section chiefs about not doing stupid hero shit like this during convoys. More specificaly, they talked about section chiefs/LTs who got themselves killed by checking out UXO because "our soldiers shouldn't have to do it". This mentality is endangering the lives of the soldiers under your command and is strictly unnecessary...they have people trained to fucking clear IEDs. Let them do their jobs. Which leads me to my next point...
Reason the Third: There was air support en route. He knew that. Seriously, what the fuck.
If he just fucking held out his position, and secured the lives of his other soldiers, whilst just waiting for goddamn air support to arrive like you're fucking supposed to do, all of this tragedy could've been avoided. Air support would've provided cover fire/made it clear for the squad to leave, the coulda policed up their buddy, we'd have a live SFC right now.
Reason the Fourth: Sorry to sound really fucking crass about this, but he did not affect the situation positively with his death. If anything, he affected it negatively.
I'm sorry, but if we're literally gonna be giving the highest military honor we can award to people who didn't save any lives, or performed above and beyond the call of duty in a combat situation...if we're gonna be giving the MOH to dying in battle, I would say we should retroactively give an MOH to everyone who's ever died, ever, in a combat situation in the military.
This is a symptom of a larger problem that the military has, or as I like to call it, the Syndrome Paradox: If you give out awards for any little thing anyone does, awards become meaningless. Cheapening the MOH by giving it for a situation that really doesn't deserve it is insulting in the highest degree. A lesser example of the Syndrome Paradox in my unit:
In my unit, our job requires us to be sitting around on FOBs doing nothing all day. It's the height of the term "fobbit" and is not glorious or badass or awesome.
One of the sections in my unit, whilst they were sitting around doing nothing, a mortar round hit near their position. It was a dud. It did not go off. No one was in any danger even if it had- they were in an enclosed building at least 50 meters from the dud round falling. Literally all they did was call up to our higher element, and they sent out the appropriate people to take the dud round away.
Everyone in that section is getting a CAB. Yes, everyone in that section is getting a fucking CAB for doing nothing that anyone else wouldn't do. And it's hilarious that everyone in that section is getting it, because I know for a fact at least half the people getting the CAB weren't even there (they were asleep in their CHUs, or at the gym working out, or eating in the D-FAC) when it landed. So there's a whole bunch of shady bullshit going on.
Honestly, if I had a CAB I'd be fucking insulted that those POS's in that section were wearing the same award as me and they didn't earn it- or only earned it with the most technical of bullshit things as possible. Maybe that's just me though.
Final Reason: So many more people deserve MOHs and aren't getting it than this guy.
Check out this list of guys who received the Distinguished Service Cross, many of which awarded posthumously. So many of their stories are so much more impressive than this guy's. Many of theirs saved many lives. Admittedly, the DSC is the second-highest, but the fact remains- many of these guys deserve MOHs if SFC Monti received one.
I'm reminded of a story I vaguely read about a Marine (this was OIF, iirc) who got shot in the head, then a grenade was thrown into his squad's HMMWV, and the dude took his ACH off, covered the grenade, and laid his body on it, saving the lives of everyone else in the vehicle whislt losing his own.
Unfortunately, during postmortem, they were unable to determine conclusively if the head wound had anything to do with his actions or if they were solely of his own consciousness and recognition. Because of that, and only that, he was DQ'd from MOH contention, which is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard of.
In case you couldn't tell, I'm pretty pissed about this shit. Thoughts, D & D?
Reasons why I think this MOH is fucking bullshit:
Reason the First: SFC Monti's actions were the exact opposite of what one should do in a combat situation, as taught as early as BCT for soldiers.
I remember when I went through Basic, learning of bound and overwatch and how to handle small arms fire. "Now, let's say your buddy goes down whilst attempting to secure a perimeter/defend an emplaced position/bound and overwatch to your objective, and there's smalls arms fire going off from OpFor. He's out in the open. What do you do?" the Drill Sergeant asked my cycle.
Uh, well, that's obvious. Go back and get him.
"GET DOWN!" he yelled. Whilst we were in the front leaning rest, he explained. "No, privates, you don't do stupid bullshit like that. You return fucking fire and ensure the situation is safe to retrieve your buddy before you do some stupid hero bullshit like that. Why? Because if you go running out like a dumbass with bullets whizzing by, the best you'll get is yourself killed, and now there's two fucking bodies your buddies are gonna have to deal with."
This is basic fucking training, here, folks. This is shit you 're taught from the beginning, drummed into your head that you do not under any circumstances do the "save him, be a hero" bullshit, because there's a good chances you'll just actively make the situation worse. This dude was a SFC-an E-7!- and he ignored this shit. That's at least 10 years of service under your belt, and he ignored everything he knew to do the dumbass thing. And he got his ass shot and killed, the exact fucking reason you don't do stupid shit like this.
Reason the Second: What the fuck, he's a fucking SFC, that's a goddamn leadership role, what the fuck is he doing a lower enlisted job.
This one's pretty important. He's a goddamn SFC, that's platoon-level and higher leadership. Why the fuck is he doing something an E-4 and below would do? There's a logical limit to the mentality of "I wouldn't make my soldiers do something I wouldn't do myself" and that time was it. He's a fucking SFC, in charge of 15 other lives, receiving grenades, small arms, and RPGs from over 60 other motherfuckers, a nearly 4:1 ratio. At times like this, your soldiers desperately need leadership. You shouldn't be playing the fucking hero. When he got his dumb ass shot and killed, he directly endangered the lives of all the soldiers under his command, and that's fucking unacceptable.
The worst part is is he probably knew what he was doing was fucking retarded but he did it anyway. (He reportedly tossed the handmike (which was being used to call for air support, which is pretty fucking essential it gets handled right for a whole number of different reasons, the least of which being so air support doesn't accidentally shoot you) to someone else and said "You're Chaos 35 (their call sign)". The level of stupidity inherent in such an action is astounding to me).
I talked to my section chief (who holds pretty much the same opinion as me) on this subject, and he brought an interesting anecdote to the proceedings: When he was deployed the first time to Iraq, in train-up, they briefed him and other section chiefs about not doing stupid hero shit like this during convoys. More specificaly, they talked about section chiefs/LTs who got themselves killed by checking out UXO because "our soldiers shouldn't have to do it". This mentality is endangering the lives of the soldiers under your command and is strictly unnecessary...they have people trained to fucking clear IEDs. Let them do their jobs. Which leads me to my next point...
Reason the Third: There was air support en route. He knew that. Seriously, what the fuck.
If he just fucking held out his position, and secured the lives of his other soldiers, whilst just waiting for goddamn air support to arrive like you're fucking supposed to do, all of this tragedy could've been avoided. Air support would've provided cover fire/made it clear for the squad to leave, the coulda policed up their buddy, we'd have a live SFC right now.
Reason the Fourth: Sorry to sound really fucking crass about this, but he did not affect the situation positively with his death. If anything, he affected it negatively.
I'm sorry, but if we're literally gonna be giving the highest military honor we can award to people who didn't save any lives, or performed above and beyond the call of duty in a combat situation...if we're gonna be giving the MOH to dying in battle, I would say we should retroactively give an MOH to everyone who's ever died, ever, in a combat situation in the military.
This is a symptom of a larger problem that the military has, or as I like to call it, the Syndrome Paradox: If you give out awards for any little thing anyone does, awards become meaningless. Cheapening the MOH by giving it for a situation that really doesn't deserve it is insulting in the highest degree. A lesser example of the Syndrome Paradox in my unit:
In my unit, our job requires us to be sitting around on FOBs doing nothing all day. It's the height of the term "fobbit" and is not glorious or badass or awesome.
One of the sections in my unit, whilst they were sitting around doing nothing, a mortar round hit near their position. It was a dud. It did not go off. No one was in any danger even if it had- they were in an enclosed building at least 50 meters from the dud round falling. Literally all they did was call up to our higher element, and they sent out the appropriate people to take the dud round away.
Everyone in that section is getting a CAB. Yes, everyone in that section is getting a fucking CAB for doing nothing that anyone else wouldn't do. And it's hilarious that everyone in that section is getting it, because I know for a fact at least half the people getting the CAB weren't even there (they were asleep in their CHUs, or at the gym working out, or eating in the D-FAC) when it landed. So there's a whole bunch of shady bullshit going on.
Honestly, if I had a CAB I'd be fucking insulted that those POS's in that section were wearing the same award as me and they didn't earn it- or only earned it with the most technical of bullshit things as possible. Maybe that's just me though.
Final Reason: So many more people deserve MOHs and aren't getting it than this guy.
Check out this list of guys who received the Distinguished Service Cross, many of which awarded posthumously. So many of their stories are so much more impressive than this guy's. Many of theirs saved many lives. Admittedly, the DSC is the second-highest, but the fact remains- many of these guys deserve MOHs if SFC Monti received one.
I'm reminded of a story I vaguely read about a Marine (this was OIF, iirc) who got shot in the head, then a grenade was thrown into his squad's HMMWV, and the dude took his ACH off, covered the grenade, and laid his body on it, saving the lives of everyone else in the vehicle whislt losing his own.
Unfortunately, during postmortem, they were unable to determine conclusively if the head wound had anything to do with his actions or if they were solely of his own consciousness and recognition. Because of that, and only that, he was DQ'd from MOH contention, which is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard of.
In case you couldn't tell, I'm pretty pissed about this shit. Thoughts, D & D?
Rent on
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I just don't understand why he got an MSM or something then
The worst thing is is this is validation for actions that the Army teaches you not to do
Basically "Don't fucking do this! But if you do, you can get an MOH!"
But you shouldn't get the MOH for failure, even in death.
And I read on wiki that he was posthumously promoted to SFC.
I do have a problem with your "Fuck Monti" attitude, the dude isn't at fault because of this. He gave his life, stupidly maybe, but I doubt he did it for the medal.
But I don't know anything about military ranks. Perhaps he shouldn't have been in that situation even with the rank he had at the time.
I feel really bad, but I had to laugh at that. This guy acts retarded to save someone, ultimately dying, and then the person he was trying to save is killed, not by an enemy, but because the cable snapped as it was lifting him into a helicopter.
Yeah, he was a SSG before this
The point still stands however, I'm pretty sure he was senior enlisted and therefore de facto, if not explictly, in charge
What hes saying that in doing what he did he risked the lives of several other soldiers. So his fuck monti attitude is pretty apt.
Even if he behaved stupidly, there is not need to hate on the guy like that.
You sound completly unhinged.
Which, speaking as a civilian, I agree is a fucking stupid reason to give it. But that's politics for you.
His motivations seem pure, even admirable. He wanted to save a fellow soldier.
Of course, he shouldn't have done it, and I don't think he deserves the medal, but he is hardy malevolent.
Limed for fucking truth both of them. Having read the MOH citation and circumstances around his death, I am further convinced that the OP needs to get his head examined. That much hate can not be healthy.
That in itself is in-fucking-excusable
That's one of the first lessons you learn- your first duty is to your soldiers. Period. End of story
By willfully disregarding the basic tenets of being an NCO, for that I say fuck him
Hate on the guy who advanced his name, and on congress for rubber stamping it.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I am inclined to believe he saw his actions as carrying out that duty, and quite the opposite of endangering the lives of his soldiers.
...except, as I've repeated before, you're taught over and over basically from introduction into the military to never, ever, ever do this. Ever
If it had gone worse for his squad (i.e. people died after he left, etc), we'd be hearing a much different tune- for his actions were within spitting distance of criminally negligent
Also, I'm not saying he did this for the medals or recognition. Quite the opposite- he was well-intentioned, and I believe his actions were courageous, if unbelievably retarded and against everything he'd ever been taught. What I am saying, however, is is that by recognizing this with the highest military honor we can award, we're basically giving mixed messages to military personnel. Again, "Don't ever do this ever- but if you do, you can get an MOH for it!"
Sgt Monti was not in command of the team and he was not in command. It was a 16 man patrol, and Monti only was in charge of the forward observation team. The wounded man didn't make it back to cover but the rest of the group had. The enlisted man in command was killed leaving two Staff Sgts. The senior, sniper SSG was going to go out to try to save the wounded man exposed to enemy fire but Monti said he'd go instead while the rest of the team covered him.
He didn't put his unit in danger as you seem to assume. He didn't act "stupidly" he acted "above and beyond the call of duty." Fucking six Medal of Honors have been awarded since 9/11, all posthumously. This award cheapens the Medal of Honor? Because you believe his actions weren't tactically sound? That you theorize that Sgt Monti didn't save Private Bradley because he was killed during helicopter extraction? The Medal of Honor isn't about bathing in the blood of the enemy. Its about personal bravery. Look at the past winners and see how many were tactically sound and effective.
Frankly saying "fuck [the guy who gave his life in service to his country]" alone is pretty dickish. Doing so because you presumed his actions unwise without bothering to get many of the details right is especially so. He gave his life trying to save one of his remaining squad that was exposed to an enemy force four times the size of his unit. I'm sorry that's not heroic enough for you and that making up armchair tactical criticisms without getting all the facts was enough for you to judge this man unfit. But Jared Monti is a hero, and fuck you
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How did he not put his unit in danger? I truly didn't know whether or not he was in charge of the 16-man squad, true, and for that I apologize
But that still ignores the fact that as an NCO he had direct command of his soldiers, meaning they specifically looked to him for guidance. He directly endangered his soldiers via his actions
He acted stupidly. Period. If you don't believe he acted stupidly, then the entire Department of the Army is stupid for teaching us from BCT onwards to never take action like he did that day. It's literally a textbook case of what not to do in a firefight, with textbook results. It's almost hilarious if it weren't so tragic
Oh and I did look at the other MOH awardees. 3 were diving on a grenade variants, 1 was holding an emplaced position to directly save others' lives, and the last was calling for help via placing himself directly in the line of fire. All of them objectively saved lives. All of them were tactically sound and effective. SFC Monti's was neither.
Also, it doesn't matter what he's "only" in charge of. If he had soldiers under his command, his first duty was to the soldiers' safety
Why was an E-5 in charge of a group that included two E-6s?
This is confusing
And the reason the Army trains its soldiers to avoid doing things like what Monti did is probably because 99% of the time it's the wrong action. But Monti was the guy in the situation, none of us were. I don't even know what the place fucking looks like. I don't know how far away the enemy was, if they were even visible (probably not). All the options that was left to him were probably a) do absolutely fucking nothing and wait for the strike or b) try to save his buddy.
He did what he thought was best. And, you know, he was probably right. I don't have a problem trusting his judgment about the situation he was in above yours and the training of the army. What would the taliban fighters done if they didn't see an effort to rescue the wounded soldier? It's reasonable to assume they would have probably finished him off. In the end it was a wasted effort, but the dude didn't get a medal for seeing into the future, did he?
i just read the wiki on it. it didn't say Sergeant Patrick Lybert was the commanding officer. i just misread I guess :v
Well, I guess that's the issue here
People who disagree with me think that SFC Monti made the right decision, consciously, in the situation at hand, and for that deserves his award
People who agree with me think that SFC Monti knew what the right decision was, and consciously made the wrong one, endangering his soldiers and making the situation worse, and therefore doesn't deserve his award
And here we are, at an impasse
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Although they rarely refer to an E-6, -7, or MSG E-8 as a 'Sergeant' in news reports, most of the time it's the three letter abbreviation or the full rank name
Thus the confusion
The first reason. This is something I've heard a lot from people who have served. You never endanger your life for a rescue. While it is heroic in the classic sense, most of the time it isn't going to go well. I've never served in the armed forces, but I can kinda understand why people would see this as a reason to not award someone the MOH. The military has rules, and awarding someone the top medal for breaking the rules is silly.
The second reason, I noticed someone here pointed out that he was promoted posthum-whateverthatwordis (I'm dumb). But I mean, no matter the rank, protocol is protocol.
The third reason I think is the strongest case against this. He acted brashly, without thinking too much. He called for the artillery and support himself, and if not that gave the order for it, so he knew it was coming. Because of this, I will say giving him the Medal of Honor was too much. Another medal or two would've been more fitting. He didn't go above and beyond the call of duty, he tried to save someone he knew, which is an easy mistake to make when serving I imagine; but it's something the military instructs soldiers not to do. So, above and beyond the call of duty... no. Outside the call of duty, yeah.
The fourth reason I don't have much to say about. Two soldiers dead instead of one, I guess. I'm not sure how much weight this holds as a reason why he shouldn't have gotten it though, since people do get honored after their death frequently.
The fifth reason is actually more important than the third, but it applies to so many people who serve over the course of the nation's history. Like my best friend said, there are a lot of unsung heroes. And it really does suck that they are as so. I think the best anyone who knows of these people could do is to sing their song, y'know?
I don't have the same perspective as anyone currently serving because, as I said, I've never served. The best I can do is go from what I know from all the people I've known who have or do serve. Really, they're the ones who are in the best position to have the better opinions about situations like this.
I'm not saying what he did wasn't courageous
I am saying what he did was stupid, tactically unintelligent, and unsuccessful
- Eddie Rickenbacker (1890 - 1973)
"A timid person is frightened before a danger, a coward during the time, and a courageous person afterward."
- Jean Paul Richter (1763 - 1825)
And more here: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/courage/
Nobody seems to think courage or bravery includes being smart or tactful. It doesn't have to include those things. The point Rent is trying to make I think is that a guy is being given the highest honor the military has to offer for doing things the military trains people not to be / do. I think he's right in that regard.
I can barely make an argument because I keep looking at the retarded thread title. It's a shame you didn't know him personally, otherwise I think you would've taken a smarter approach to this topic.
Have you served, McAllen? And aside from that, I think you're making the stance Rent has a bit more extreme.
You really have no idea the importance of the MOH do you
Do you
I didn't say "look at Medal of Honor winners in the last 8 years." Although, do they teach you to dive on a grenade in basic training? And if it went off and still killed some of your fellow soldiers, would you say "fuck that guy" too? What if a guy led his small squad against much larger numbers and left himself as commander exposed to enemy fire in order to call in air support, and then remained exposed to enemy fire after having called in that support? Do you really thing an examination of his tactical decisions would come up clean? Or a guy who let an Iraqi insurgent walk up to him while searching the Iraqi convoy and almost got his whole unit killed before jumping on a grenade?
If no one fucks up, Medals of Honor don't get awarded. Its not about execution, or skill or tactical brilliance or how many enemies you kill.
I did say look at Medal of Honor winners in general. Sgt Monti's actions are entirely in line with them. In fact, even a quick look finds many nigh identical examples of charging over exposed ground or otherwise recklessly in an attempt to save a fellow soldier. Other than diving on a grenade, there doesn't seem to be any more common action (or series of actions) that leads to a MoH.
(ed And all those examples were from around the first half alphabetically of Vietnam entries. How many more do you think I could find if I finished Vietnam and went to Korea or either World War?) Except the entire purpose of the award is for people who act particularly courageously, especially if they beyond the call of duty in an effort to save lives. In order to act beyond the call of duty, you're probably going to be acting in a way that contradicts in some way basic training.
The fact that Rent (and perhaps others) believes that Sgt Monti's actions were tactically unsound is irrelevant even before we take into account that Rent (and others) fundamentally misunderstood several of the facts that they based this reasoning on. This is the Medal of Honor, not "Best Ranger Competition." You don't get it for being the best soldier. You don't get it by just following training. You get for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty", especially when trying to save your fellow soldiers. You don't get it for being a soldier, you get it for being a hero.
Attempting to denigrate Jared Monti is pathetic and reprehensible.
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