I honest, honestly do not see why people get pissed off at evangelical Christians just for being evangelical.
Because evangelism in an inappropriate setting is rude and uncouth.
The only evangelicals I've ever encountered were dudes with microphones on street corners in Chicago on black Friday and, once, at my school campus. And occasionally an actual insane person on the bus telling of his visions about ghouls, but not demons, with blade-arms made of silver and gold, though I'm not sure that guy counts as an "evangelical."
Whereas every four years it is somewhat socially acceptable for strangers to go door to door and talk to you about politics.
Or I don't know. Maybe they're about as acceptable. I just more often see the "you can't talk about religion here" card played than "you can't talk about politics here."
Honestly, I love a good religious discussion, but I don't like it when people come to my fucking house with an agenda of conversion.
god forbid someone should knock on your door and want to talk to you
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I always think it's a mixture of puzzling and amusing when a person who isn't religious feels it is their place to tell a stated devotee of a particular religion what their duties or practices must be.
I'm not quite sure what particular denomination of Christianity you belong to - but you do claim to be an evangelical Christian, which has a particular set of orthodox Christian beliefs. One of them is that Jesus Christ specifically calls all his followers to share the good news. So, it is your job.
Is the only reason you don't like my burning building analogy because you don't think that Christians have the ability to persuade people of the truth of Gospel?
I'm Pentecostal.
In terms of it being my job, that's true. Evangelising isn't necessarily about using words though. If someone wants to talk about it, I love to share, but otherwise it's just rude.
With regards to the analogy, people in a burning building know they are in a burning building. They want someone to rescue them. They are in immediate danger.
Whereas non-christians, most of the time, are quite happy where they are at. There isn't immediate danger. The bible teaches that God is just, so I believe that everyone will get a fair chance to choose for themselves.
I'm 100% cool with people having their own beliefs. I only get irritated when people start trying to push their beliefs on others.
So, I'm cool if someone comes to my door... I'm not cool if they dont take a polite "No Thanks". I'm cool discussing morality... I'm not cool with anyone taking the moral high ground over me.
So how does that make him any different from an evengelical christian? "I think what you're doing is wrong so do what I say instead."
The problem with that mindset, atheist or religious, is if you become so self-righteous and arrogant about it you start trying to ram it down other people's throats against their will, violently in extreme cases.
The problem with your mindset is that you are focusing on how people present arguments for ideological positions instead of the merit of those positions themselves.
It's like you're saying How are Democrats any different from the Republicans? I think what you're doing is wrong so do what I say instead."
It's this lazy, South Park mentality where you just stand back and mock both sides instead of actually engaging the debate between the sides on its merits.
And yes, there have been violent attempts to force atheism on people. Communism was rabidly anti-religious; the closest thing we've had to an "atheist crusade" where they believed that they had a right to forcefully "convert" people to atheism by persecuting and killing those who were religious.
This sounds like a violent attempt to force communism on people. Communism as practiced by the Soviet Union functioned more or less like a cult anyway.
I'm not quite sure what particular denomination of Christianity you belong to - but you do claim to be an evangelical Christian, which has a particular set of orthodox Christian beliefs. One of them is that Jesus Christ specifically calls all his followers to share the good news. So, it is your job.
Is the only reason you don't like my burning building analogy because you don't think that Christians have the ability to persuade people of the truth of Gospel?
I'm Pentecostal.
In terms of it being my job, that's true. Evangelising isn't necessarily about using words though. If someone wants to talk about it, I love to share, but otherwise it's just rude.
With regards to the analogy, people in a burning building know they are in a burning building. They want someone to rescue them. They are in immediate danger.
Whereas non-christians, most of the time, are quite happy where they are at. There isn't immediate danger. The bible teaches that God is just, so I believe that everyone will get a fair chance to choose for themselves.
I see. So in other words, you don't really need to spread the Gospel because God gives everyone the choice to follow him or not. If they get sent to hell for remaining obstinate in their unbelief, it's their own damn fault, because God must have given them a fair choice.
As an evangelical Christian, the reason we don't spend all our time evangelising, is it would do more harm than good. I've never been able to convince anyone that God is real, and that's not really my job. I wouldn't really say it's like your burning building analogy.
I think this is entirely fair. It's pointless to aggressively evangelize if you just end up turning people off; especially if you expose your evangelizing flock to clever atheists who can counter-argue.
Though isn't this why many evangelical Christians go on "mission trips" and give aid to poor, uneducated people who don't really have an education to give them doubts and then tell them all about the Lord?
militant, and what could safely be called evangelical atheists are the most common for me to encounter.
like, do you have atheists preaching on street corners or something?
I am really, honestly thrown by this whole evangelical atheist thing, aside from on the internet in some limited way
It's not at all uncommon for some atheists to have a hatred of religion sufficiently powerful that even bringing it up in conversation will cause ATHEIST RAGE.
Sure. I'm one of those people. But if you say "no thanks, I don't want to have this discussion," I'm not the type of person to insist, and I doubt the vast majority of atheists are either.
For that matter, I doubt the vast majority of evangelical Christians are either. When addressing strangers, I don't think very many atheist or religious evangelists are as insistent and obnoxious as telemarketers.
Doesn't the very term educate in that context predispose that one person is right and the other in need of "teaching" and therefore wrong or "uneducated"? "Do what I say" doesn't strike you as a bit controlling? Big difference between that sort of "educating" and sharing ideas.
"Oh, you don't think they way I do, you poor unenlightened child. You need educating so shut up and do what I say". Yeah, 2+2=4, but other things arn't so clear-cut.
But some things are so clear cut.
Like "evolution happens, and every living species evolved from a common ancestor."
Or "the earth revolves around the sun."
Or "epilepsy-causing demons do not exist and people do not rise from the dead."
Or "Much of Genesis can be characterized as Mesopotamian mythology."
What, you think a 1.8 trillion dollar defecit means it's a bad time to contemplate an expansion of government! BLASHPHEMY, HERETIC, I WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR LIES!!! :P
You're not doing your argument much service here, as this doesn't make any sense as far as I can tell.
I see. So in other words, you don't really need to spread the Gospel because God gives everyone the choice to follow him or not. If they get sent to hell for remaining obstinate in their unbelief, it's their own damn fault, because God must have given them a fair choice.
That's an interesting position.
No, we definitely need to. God uses people to tell the world about him. It's not always about using words, and the bible also talks about keeping peace with people. If I don't respect someone's position, that's bound to disrupt peace, plus, it makes me a dick.
Though isn't this why many evangelical Christians go on "mission trips" and give aid to poor, uneducated people who don't really have an education to give them doubts and then tell them all about the Lord?
I can't speak for other people's motivation, and I have never gone on missions trips, but the bible does say that whatever we do for the poor and needy, we do for God. They could be viewed as an act of worship.
But they could also be viewed as a means to being able to talk to people about the Lord. Different people probably view them differently. Definitly friends of mine that have gone on them have seen them as a way to help people that need help.
I honest, honestly do not see why people get pissed off at evangelical Christians just for being evangelical.
Because evangelism in an inappropriate setting is rude and uncouth.
The only evangelicals I've ever encountered were dudes with microphones on street corners in Chicago on black Friday and, once, at my school campus. And occasionally an actual insane person on the bus telling of his visions about ghouls, but not demons, with blade-arms made of silver and gold, though I'm not sure that guy counts as an "evangelical."
Whereas every four years it is somewhat socially acceptable for strangers to go door to door and talk to you about politics.
Or I don't know. Maybe they're about as acceptable. I just more often see the "you can't talk about religion here" card played than "you can't talk about politics here."
Honestly, I love a good religious discussion, but I don't like it when people come to my fucking house with an agenda of conversion.
god forbid someone should knock on your door and want to talk to you
I personally like when Christians come try to convert me. But I'm an argumentative sort and enjoy that sort of thing.
That said, Qingu raised a good point about it being acceptable for strangers to come talk about politics but not religion. I know this is going to come off sounding mean, but this is the train of thought that came into my mind as to why it's less acceptable:
I don't care what people believe in. If they really want to believe in a fairy tale, fine. If they think Noah stuffed all those creatures on a boat, whatever. If they think that's absurdly stupid yet they believe in a zombie-god-son-thing, well, shit, that's a bit hypocritical but whatever too. But damn, keep your fairy tales in your special buildings and in your head. I don't want it being socially acceptable to not only admit to strangers that you truly believe in zombies but to actually try to convert them to zombie-ism. You're free to believe what you want but I start to get weirded out when it's socially acceptable to proudly preach something like that.
In my head it's the equivalent of a UFO-theorist coming by my house trying to convert me. It's like, woah, you're free to believe in your bizarre alien-government conspiracies, but when did it go below the threshold of crazy-theory enough to become socially acceptable to go door to door and convert people? Well, with UFO-theorists it still hasn't gone below that threshold. With religious people it obviously has forever, but since I perceive both as being supernatural-event-converters I get the same sense of "well this ain't right" when either comes by my home.
I know, it's a terribly biased perspective that is completely posited on the assumption that atheism is correct and organized religions are wrong. I recognize the biased place from which my train of thought comes from. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in and perhaps that's why others find it okay for politicians to go door to door but not evangelicals.
I'm a former "militant atheist". Let me dust of my hat here and try to explain the mindset...
*plop*
"You know what the problem is with the Religiously Afflicted? Society has been bending over backwards to cater to those racist, homophobic, neanderthal fuckwits for centuries. They start wars and slaughter millions, they bomb people, persecute; they have brought more pain and suffering into this world than whatever 'Devil' boogeyman they fucking believe in this week.
And yet, I'm the one listed as the least trusted and most despised group? Really? Fucking really??? 'Oh, no, don't trust that soulless Atheist, he'll distract our children from their contemplation of the Magical Sky Man with his scientific facts and pie charts!' Fuck all of you! Fucking halfwit fundamentalist cocksmokers! Fuck you! Fuck you for holding back society, and most of all for turning everyone against me!"
*remove hat*
Got a bit carried away there. Anyway, tldr, there might be a bit of anger, resentment and frustration fueling the "militant atheist". It's a bit of a sore spot. Luckily, anger is a young man's game, so most of them will grow out of it and adopt a more "live and let live" philosophy.
But Cognisseur, the people who are most prone to characterizing evangelical Christianity as bizarre, socially unacceptable conspiracy theory are people like you and me, who would welcome these people into our homes.
I mean shit. If some evangelicals came a buzzin' at my apartment, I would make them milk and cookies. I would let them play Rock Band while they pitched their arguments. Nothing would make me happier than to trap these people into a logical debate of their own initiation.
Whereas the people who are the most apathetic about the content of evangelical Christianity seem to get the most angry at the prospect of evangelicals knocking on their doors.
Got a bit carried away there. Anyway, tldr, there might be a bit of anger, resentment and frustration fueling the "militant atheist". It's a bit of a sore spot. Luckily, anger is a young man's game, so most of them will grow out of it and adopt a more "live and let live" philosophy.
I think this "angry" element is actually quite separate from people like Dawkins (and myself) who grew up secular and haven't had much bad experience with religion. I don't know if you fall into this category, Houn, but I briefly hung out at an atheist forum and a bunch of people there were these poor kids whose parents disowned them when they "came out," or who were members of insane churches that actively made their lives miserable, or had psychological scars from constant, visceral threats of hellfire.
It's sort of difficult for me to relate to this because I had a pretty painless transition to atheism ... but if you've been a religious fundamentalist for your whole life and then it slips away, causing your friends and family to threaten you and disown you—I can certainly understand being angry.
Someone earlier (apparently) criticized Ayaan Hirsi Ali for being overly combative towards Islam. Well, she was forcibly circumcized by her grandmother to uphold Islamic/tribal tradition, her mother moved her family to Saudi Arabia, a hellhole, out of a desire to be Islamically pure; she was beaten near-to-death by her Islamic teacher, brainwashed by another Islamic teacher, forcibly married off per Islamic tradition, and then, when she had the temerity to criticize Islam publically, was hounded and threatened to this day by Muslims, one of whom assassinated her friend with a note stabbed into his chest addressed to her.
So yeah, I can understand why she'd have a beef with the religion of Islam.
No, I personally had a fairly smooth transition to Atheism. It's never come up in conversation with my family, but they're not exactly "devout", either. They may surprise me, though; my mom is a life-long democrat, always struck me as fairly liberal and tolerant, and yet pulled out "I'm not ready for a president to be pouring 40's on the White House lawn" in regards to Obama's Nomination. So, who knows?
Anyway, I've noticed a lot of young people tend to carry around a rather general feeling of anger at the world, and will often choose a focus for it. In my case, it was religion and politics, as I'm sure it is for many others. Some people teabag others in Halo. Some people channel it into creative projects (you will never convince me that Old Mellow Bob Dillon is better than Young Angry Bob Dillon.)
I see. So in other words, you don't really need to spread the Gospel because God gives everyone the choice to follow him or not. If they get sent to hell for remaining obstinate in their unbelief, it's their own damn fault, because God must have given them a fair choice.
That's an interesting position.
No, we definitely need to. God uses people to tell the world about him. It's not always about using words, and the bible also talks about keeping peace with people. If I don't respect someone's position, that's bound to disrupt peace, plus, it makes me a dick.
I suppose I might want to clarify a distinction here: It's not just about telling "the world." It's about convincing as many individuals on earth as possible. As many as you possibly can. Right? I mean, the truth is that Jesus Christ is the only savior, and only those who believe in him have eternal life, is it not? Is not Jesus required for salvation?
I understand the desire to respect someone's opinion. And if you really believe that being silent about your faith, or not explaining it with words is the best way to convince as many people as you can that Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation from eternal perdition, then that's fine. But if not - if you think that a more direct, upfront approach really would be more effective - than you're basically choosing politeness over these people's wellfare. At that point we'd be back to the idle firefighter analogy.
It's about taking the opportunities that are placed in front of me to tell people about Jesus. I believe that because I call Jesus Lord, I will be saved. Outside of that, I don't know. I'm not the judge.
I believe that being respectful is an effective way to live a christian life. It's about way more than just evangelizing.
I see. So in other words, you don't really need to spread the Gospel because God gives everyone the choice to follow him or not. If they get sent to hell for remaining obstinate in their unbelief, it's their own damn fault, because God must have given them a fair choice.
That's an interesting position.
No, we definitely need to. God uses people to tell the world about him. It's not always about using words, and the bible also talks about keeping peace with people. If I don't respect someone's position, that's bound to disrupt peace, plus, it makes me a dick.
I suppose I might want to clarify a distinction here: It's not just about telling "the world." It's about convincing as many individuals on earth as possible. As many as you possibly can. Right? I mean, the truth is that Jesus Christ is the only savior, and only those who believe in him have eternal life, is it not? Is not Jesus required for salvation?
I understand the desire to respect someone's opinion. And if you really believe that being silent about your faith, or not explaining it with words is the best way to convince as many people as you can that Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation from eternal perdition, then that's fine. But if not - if you think that a more direct, upfront approach really would be more effective - than you're basically choosing politeness over these people's wellfare. At that point we'd be back to the idle firefighter analogy.
But if individuals require people to tell them about Jesus to be saved, that would make God a huge dick—see the sad case of every single native American going to hell.
So really, when evangelicals don't bother trying to convince everyone to be saved, it's really an acknowledgement of the fact that God isn't a huge dick. They need to believe that God is not such an ass as to doom every native American to hell because Christian missionaries hadn't figured out how to sail across the Atlantic yet.
Of course, this ignores all the parts of the Bible where God is a huge dick.
That said, Qingu raised a good point about it being acceptable for strangers to come talk about politics but not religion.
But it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics. It's somewhat acceptable to talk to strangers about very specific issues and candidates and ask for their votes.
That said, Qingu raised a good point about it being acceptable for strangers to come talk about politics but not religion.
But it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics. It's somewhat acceptable to talk to strangers about very specific issues and candidates and ask for their votes.
I don't agree with that really. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and start a political discussion any more than you'd start a religious one, but you wouldn't walk up and talk to them about what tv shows you watch, either.
I think politics is a much more acceptable topic of polite conversation in social settings than religion is.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It's a bit regional, as well. Politics is definitely not polite conversation in Montana, but in Seattle it seems perfectly acceptable from what I've seen.
The guy in the audience I thought was especially polite and reasonable.
Yeah, but....
He did something that really annoys me, which is bringing up physicists to allege the existence of God must explain the big bang. Specifically, he brought up Stephen Hawking.
Stephen Hawking is the physicist who explicitly said that the universe has probably always existed and thus was never created, and thus, "what place is there for a God?"
That said, Qingu raised a good point about it being acceptable for strangers to come talk about politics but not religion.
But it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics. It's somewhat acceptable to talk to strangers about very specific issues and candidates and ask for their votes.
I don't agree with that really. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and start a political discussion any more than you'd start a religious one, but you wouldn't walk up and talk to them about what tv shows you watch, either.
I think politics is a much more acceptable topic of polite conversation in social settings than religion is.
that it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics
So, if I go knock on doors to talk to people about my thoughts on public domain law, free-trade, and American foreign policy, what do you think my batting average on getting told "ah, that's interesting, but I have a life, so get out of my house" will be? I don't know what alternate America you guys live in where people will put up with that.
that it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics
So, if I go knock on doors to talk to people about my thoughts on public domain law, free-trade, and American foreign policy, what do you think my batting average on getting told "ah, that's interesting, but I have a life, so get out of my house" will be? I don't know what alternate America you guys live in where people will put up with that.
okay, but there's nothing remarkable about that. If you knocked on a bunch of doors and tried to start a conversation about anything, a large number of people will tell you to go away
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
that it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics
So, if I go knock on doors to talk to people about my thoughts on public domain law, free-trade, and American foreign policy, what do you think my batting average on getting told "ah, that's interesting, but I have a life, so get out of my house" will be? I don't know what alternate America you guys live in where people will put up with that.
okay, but there's nothing remarkable about that. If you knocked on a bunch of doors and tried to start a conversation about anything, a large number of people will tell you to go away
But I'm talking about politics. Which is acceptable to talk to people about, apparently, unlike religion. Or something.
This whole tangent is a confused belief springing out of an inexistent hypocrisy.
I was raised catholic in a liberal catholic community. non judgmental, minor sins overlooked in the name of the greater good. church on sundays (usually), and very down to earth people.
recent trends in the catholic community (probably straight down from Rome) have brought on a new wave of conservatives. small changes in parish, brings my parents bad memories of pre-vatican II. we attend less. I believe less.
my parish had a scandal where the pastor supposedly used the church's money to buy himself things. things that this rich community takes for granted such as dinners out, good clothing, etc. the church did not press charges, and he was only brought up on a technicality in court. financiers and bankers being this town's majority, they did not look kindly on his use of their donations.
he was made an example of, sentenced to prison, and he died because he could not receive treatment for his prostate cancer in jail (a fact he made clear beforehand).
my father died in January, and the only mass I've been to this year besides his funeral was easter. the next will likely be christmas.
I have no faith left, and honestly couldn't care less about a god whether he existed or not.
Ok, is there some place where I can go to find chicks that arn't religous nut jobs. I swear every single good relationship I've ever had explodes like the manhattan project as soon as my woman finds out I don't belive in a god or afterlife.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
Ok, is there some place where I can go to find chicks that arn't religous nut jobs. I swear every single good relationship I've ever had explodes like the manhattan project as soon as my woman finds out I don't belive in a god or afterlife.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
Ok, is there some place where I can go to find chicks that arn't religous nut jobs. I swear every single good relationship I've ever had explodes like the manhattan project as soon as my woman finds out I don't belive in a god or afterlife.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
university bars?
Closest university to me is SMU. AKA Southern METHODIST University. Not saying that everyone that studies there is religious but I'd say the majority.
Ok, is there some place where I can go to find chicks that arn't religous nut jobs. I swear every single good relationship I've ever had explodes like the manhattan project as soon as my woman finds out I don't belive in a god or afterlife.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
A girl tried to get me to go to the student christian group's meeting while I was in my chemistry lab wearing an Iron Maiden T-shirt a couple of weeks ago, I had to struggle not to laugh and be a dick, but I'm not sure that there is a worse person to try and convert than a science student that listens to metal.
Personally I had a bit of christian teaching in primary (elementary for the americans) school, but didn't quite realise what it was about at the time and didn't really pick up on it, and didn't have anything more pushing me towards being religious. As I grew up and learned more about how the universe works I had less and less need for faith to explain that, and having had a fairly comfortable life up until now I didn't have any need for a higher purpose to make me feel better about my current circumstances. Oh at one point when I was being bullied I was borderline suicidal, but I realised that would make people I liked sad and that shit would probably get better in the future so that went away. I got a bit militant atheisty in my mid teens for no reason other than good old teenage rebellion, but then I started to think about stuff and philosophically I'm an empiricist, and that implies being an agnostic atheist to me (since you can't prove or disprove the existence of god, and I don't see any reason for his existence).
tl;dr: I get no benefit from belief in god and have no evidence or reason to believe in one, so why should I?
I'm coming a bit late to this because I wanted to read everything but it's hard to find a reasonable topic on faith so I wanted to join in anyway.
The reason vs religion debate has never been an issue for me. Atheists aside, I was raised among people of lots of different faiths and issues like science was just never that much of an issue. We were all happy with either "God made evolution", "science and religion address different things" or some mix thereof.
It was only a bit later on that I learned about issues like religion denying science, or that women should be subservient because those are the rules. These seemed the wrong way around to me.
Since I'd been absorbing from different faiths the whole time I figured I may as well move out of Christianity while I'm at it. Although, now I very rarely discuss religion and belief, and just try to avoid the whole thing. I'm worn out from cheap shots and being called a copout, a hypocrite or whatever from people on both sides and getting nowhere.
My girlfriend is a Buddhist, one of my best friends is an atheist. I see no reason to try to convert them. We agree that the most important thing is to respect and treat your fellow man well, so the rest is just details to me.
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CindersWhose sails were black when it was windyRegistered Userregular
Ok, is there some place where I can go to find chicks that arn't religous nut jobs. I swear every single good relationship I've ever had explodes like the manhattan project as soon as my woman finds out I don't belive in a god or afterlife.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
university bars?
Closest university to me is SMU. AKA Southern METHODIST University. Not saying that everyone that studies there is religious but I'd say the majority.
If you're near SMU, you're also pretty close to UTD, and if you aren't afraid of a longer drive, UNT.
I always think it's a mixture of puzzling and amusing when a person who isn't religious feels it is their place to tell a stated devotee of a particular religion what their duties or practices must be.
your fence-sitting smugness is infinitely more arrogant and condescending than the most convinced snarky atheists i've met
A girl tried to get me to go to the student christian group's meeting while I was in my chemistry lab wearing an Iron Maiden T-shirt a couple of weeks ago, I had to struggle not to laugh and be a dick, but I'm not sure that there is a worse person to try and convert than a science student that listens to metal.
Too bad about Nicko McBrain though...
And Dave Mustaine! Honestly, what is with all these metal musicians all the sudden converting to Christianity?
A girl tried to get me to go to the student christian group's meeting while I was in my chemistry lab wearing an Iron Maiden T-shirt a couple of weeks ago, I had to struggle not to laugh and be a dick, but I'm not sure that there is a worse person to try and convert than a science student that listens to metal.
Too bad about Nicko McBrain though...
And Dave Mustaine! Honestly, what is with all these metal musicians all the sudden converting to Christianity?
Jesus is fucking metal. Where else do you worship a dude who got nailed to a cross and then shanked?
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god forbid someone should knock on your door and want to talk to you
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I'm Pentecostal.
In terms of it being my job, that's true. Evangelising isn't necessarily about using words though. If someone wants to talk about it, I love to share, but otherwise it's just rude.
With regards to the analogy, people in a burning building know they are in a burning building. They want someone to rescue them. They are in immediate danger.
Whereas non-christians, most of the time, are quite happy where they are at. There isn't immediate danger. The bible teaches that God is just, so I believe that everyone will get a fair chance to choose for themselves.
Yes, I don't like that. I like when friends come over, but I don't like solicitors. Do other people like solicitors?
So, I'm cool if someone comes to my door... I'm not cool if they dont take a polite "No Thanks". I'm cool discussing morality... I'm not cool with anyone taking the moral high ground over me.
It doesnt matter who's doing the pushing really.
It's like you're saying How are Democrats any different from the Republicans? I think what you're doing is wrong so do what I say instead."
It's this lazy, South Park mentality where you just stand back and mock both sides instead of actually engaging the debate between the sides on its merits.
This sounds like a violent attempt to force communism on people. Communism as practiced by the Soviet Union functioned more or less like a cult anyway.
I see. So in other words, you don't really need to spread the Gospel because God gives everyone the choice to follow him or not. If they get sent to hell for remaining obstinate in their unbelief, it's their own damn fault, because God must have given them a fair choice.
That's an interesting position.
Though isn't this why many evangelical Christians go on "mission trips" and give aid to poor, uneducated people who don't really have an education to give them doubts and then tell them all about the Lord?
For that matter, I doubt the vast majority of evangelical Christians are either. When addressing strangers, I don't think very many atheist or religious evangelists are as insistent and obnoxious as telemarketers.
Like "evolution happens, and every living species evolved from a common ancestor."
Or "the earth revolves around the sun."
Or "epilepsy-causing demons do not exist and people do not rise from the dead."
Or "Much of Genesis can be characterized as Mesopotamian mythology."
You're not doing your argument much service here, as this doesn't make any sense as far as I can tell.
Did you mean an expansion of government spending?
No, we definitely need to. God uses people to tell the world about him. It's not always about using words, and the bible also talks about keeping peace with people. If I don't respect someone's position, that's bound to disrupt peace, plus, it makes me a dick.
I can't speak for other people's motivation, and I have never gone on missions trips, but the bible does say that whatever we do for the poor and needy, we do for God. They could be viewed as an act of worship.
But they could also be viewed as a means to being able to talk to people about the Lord. Different people probably view them differently. Definitly friends of mine that have gone on them have seen them as a way to help people that need help.
I personally like when Christians come try to convert me. But I'm an argumentative sort and enjoy that sort of thing.
That said, Qingu raised a good point about it being acceptable for strangers to come talk about politics but not religion. I know this is going to come off sounding mean, but this is the train of thought that came into my mind as to why it's less acceptable:
I don't care what people believe in. If they really want to believe in a fairy tale, fine. If they think Noah stuffed all those creatures on a boat, whatever. If they think that's absurdly stupid yet they believe in a zombie-god-son-thing, well, shit, that's a bit hypocritical but whatever too. But damn, keep your fairy tales in your special buildings and in your head. I don't want it being socially acceptable to not only admit to strangers that you truly believe in zombies but to actually try to convert them to zombie-ism. You're free to believe what you want but I start to get weirded out when it's socially acceptable to proudly preach something like that.
In my head it's the equivalent of a UFO-theorist coming by my house trying to convert me. It's like, woah, you're free to believe in your bizarre alien-government conspiracies, but when did it go below the threshold of crazy-theory enough to become socially acceptable to go door to door and convert people? Well, with UFO-theorists it still hasn't gone below that threshold. With religious people it obviously has forever, but since I perceive both as being supernatural-event-converters I get the same sense of "well this ain't right" when either comes by my home.
I know, it's a terribly biased perspective that is completely posited on the assumption that atheism is correct and organized religions are wrong. I recognize the biased place from which my train of thought comes from. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in and perhaps that's why others find it okay for politicians to go door to door but not evangelicals.
*plop*
"You know what the problem is with the Religiously Afflicted? Society has been bending over backwards to cater to those racist, homophobic, neanderthal fuckwits for centuries. They start wars and slaughter millions, they bomb people, persecute; they have brought more pain and suffering into this world than whatever 'Devil' boogeyman they fucking believe in this week.
And yet, I'm the one listed as the least trusted and most despised group? Really? Fucking really??? 'Oh, no, don't trust that soulless Atheist, he'll distract our children from their contemplation of the Magical Sky Man with his scientific facts and pie charts!' Fuck all of you! Fucking halfwit fundamentalist cocksmokers! Fuck you! Fuck you for holding back society, and most of all for turning everyone against me!"
*remove hat*
Got a bit carried away there. Anyway, tldr, there might be a bit of anger, resentment and frustration fueling the "militant atheist". It's a bit of a sore spot. Luckily, anger is a young man's game, so most of them will grow out of it and adopt a more "live and let live" philosophy.
I mean shit. If some evangelicals came a buzzin' at my apartment, I would make them milk and cookies. I would let them play Rock Band while they pitched their arguments. Nothing would make me happier than to trap these people into a logical debate of their own initiation.
Whereas the people who are the most apathetic about the content of evangelical Christianity seem to get the most angry at the prospect of evangelicals knocking on their doors.
It's sort of difficult for me to relate to this because I had a pretty painless transition to atheism ... but if you've been a religious fundamentalist for your whole life and then it slips away, causing your friends and family to threaten you and disown you—I can certainly understand being angry.
Someone earlier (apparently) criticized Ayaan Hirsi Ali for being overly combative towards Islam. Well, she was forcibly circumcized by her grandmother to uphold Islamic/tribal tradition, her mother moved her family to Saudi Arabia, a hellhole, out of a desire to be Islamically pure; she was beaten near-to-death by her Islamic teacher, brainwashed by another Islamic teacher, forcibly married off per Islamic tradition, and then, when she had the temerity to criticize Islam publically, was hounded and threatened to this day by Muslims, one of whom assassinated her friend with a note stabbed into his chest addressed to her.
So yeah, I can understand why she'd have a beef with the religion of Islam.
Anyway, I've noticed a lot of young people tend to carry around a rather general feeling of anger at the world, and will often choose a focus for it. In my case, it was religion and politics, as I'm sure it is for many others. Some people teabag others in Halo. Some people channel it into creative projects (you will never convince me that Old Mellow Bob Dillon is better than Young Angry Bob Dillon.)
I suppose I might want to clarify a distinction here: It's not just about telling "the world." It's about convincing as many individuals on earth as possible. As many as you possibly can. Right? I mean, the truth is that Jesus Christ is the only savior, and only those who believe in him have eternal life, is it not? Is not Jesus required for salvation?
I understand the desire to respect someone's opinion. And if you really believe that being silent about your faith, or not explaining it with words is the best way to convince as many people as you can that Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation from eternal perdition, then that's fine. But if not - if you think that a more direct, upfront approach really would be more effective - than you're basically choosing politeness over these people's wellfare. At that point we'd be back to the idle firefighter analogy.
I believe that being respectful is an effective way to live a christian life. It's about way more than just evangelizing.
So really, when evangelicals don't bother trying to convince everyone to be saved, it's really an acknowledgement of the fact that God isn't a huge dick. They need to believe that God is not such an ass as to doom every native American to hell because Christian missionaries hadn't figured out how to sail across the Atlantic yet.
Of course, this ignores all the parts of the Bible where God is a huge dick.
But it's not acceptable to talk to strangers about politics. It's somewhat acceptable to talk to strangers about very specific issues and candidates and ask for their votes.
I don't agree with that really. You wouldn't go up to someone on the street and start a political discussion any more than you'd start a religious one, but you wouldn't walk up and talk to them about what tv shows you watch, either.
I think politics is a much more acceptable topic of polite conversation in social settings than religion is.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
He did something that really annoys me, which is bringing up physicists to allege the existence of God must explain the big bang. Specifically, he brought up Stephen Hawking.
Stephen Hawking is the physicist who explicitly said that the universe has probably always existed and thus was never created, and thus, "what place is there for a God?"
What are you disagreeing with?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
So, if I go knock on doors to talk to people about my thoughts on public domain law, free-trade, and American foreign policy, what do you think my batting average on getting told "ah, that's interesting, but I have a life, so get out of my house" will be? I don't know what alternate America you guys live in where people will put up with that.
okay, but there's nothing remarkable about that. If you knocked on a bunch of doors and tried to start a conversation about anything, a large number of people will tell you to go away
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
it is not an effective or welcome vector by which i wish to be contacted about any service, product, or idea
so, if a polite "no thank you, not interested" won't get them off my door
shifting immediately to "why don't you fuck off, you son of a bitch?" and getting all puffed up is my next move
i am not sure why there's no gradient to that
in most other environments i have degrees of displeasure and rejection i can express
but something about them folk can take me from 1 to 11 in a heartbeat
But I'm talking about politics. Which is acceptable to talk to people about, apparently, unlike religion. Or something.
This whole tangent is a confused belief springing out of an inexistent hypocrisy.
recent trends in the catholic community (probably straight down from Rome) have brought on a new wave of conservatives. small changes in parish, brings my parents bad memories of pre-vatican II. we attend less. I believe less.
my parish had a scandal where the pastor supposedly used the church's money to buy himself things. things that this rich community takes for granted such as dinners out, good clothing, etc. the church did not press charges, and he was only brought up on a technicality in court. financiers and bankers being this town's majority, they did not look kindly on his use of their donations.
he was made an example of, sentenced to prison, and he died because he could not receive treatment for his prostate cancer in jail (a fact he made clear beforehand).
my father died in January, and the only mass I've been to this year besides his funeral was easter. the next will likely be christmas.
I have no faith left, and honestly couldn't care less about a god whether he existed or not.
I'm like hey it's cool don't have any issue with your religious beliefs. They usualy respond with I'm going to hell and they never want to talk to me again. The crazy ones call a week later for a booty call and try to convert me.
university bars?
Closest university to me is SMU. AKA Southern METHODIST University. Not saying that everyone that studies there is religious but I'd say the majority.
The blue bits.
A girl tried to get me to go to the student christian group's meeting while I was in my chemistry lab wearing an Iron Maiden T-shirt a couple of weeks ago, I had to struggle not to laugh and be a dick, but I'm not sure that there is a worse person to try and convert than a science student that listens to metal.
Personally I had a bit of christian teaching in primary (elementary for the americans) school, but didn't quite realise what it was about at the time and didn't really pick up on it, and didn't have anything more pushing me towards being religious. As I grew up and learned more about how the universe works I had less and less need for faith to explain that, and having had a fairly comfortable life up until now I didn't have any need for a higher purpose to make me feel better about my current circumstances. Oh at one point when I was being bullied I was borderline suicidal, but I realised that would make people I liked sad and that shit would probably get better in the future so that went away. I got a bit militant atheisty in my mid teens for no reason other than good old teenage rebellion, but then I started to think about stuff and philosophically I'm an empiricist, and that implies being an agnostic atheist to me (since you can't prove or disprove the existence of god, and I don't see any reason for his existence).
tl;dr: I get no benefit from belief in god and have no evidence or reason to believe in one, so why should I?
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The reason vs religion debate has never been an issue for me. Atheists aside, I was raised among people of lots of different faiths and issues like science was just never that much of an issue. We were all happy with either "God made evolution", "science and religion address different things" or some mix thereof.
It was only a bit later on that I learned about issues like religion denying science, or that women should be subservient because those are the rules. These seemed the wrong way around to me.
Since I'd been absorbing from different faiths the whole time I figured I may as well move out of Christianity while I'm at it. Although, now I very rarely discuss religion and belief, and just try to avoid the whole thing. I'm worn out from cheap shots and being called a copout, a hypocrite or whatever from people on both sides and getting nowhere.
My girlfriend is a Buddhist, one of my best friends is an atheist. I see no reason to try to convert them. We agree that the most important thing is to respect and treat your fellow man well, so the rest is just details to me.
If you're near SMU, you're also pretty close to UTD, and if you aren't afraid of a longer drive, UNT.
Or that one street that's nothing but bars.
And Dave Mustaine! Honestly, what is with all these metal musicians all the sudden converting to Christianity?
Jesus is fucking metal. Where else do you worship a dude who got nailed to a cross and then shanked?