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Night Shift!

desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
edited September 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
I've just started a job where I'm working the graveyard shift. 10pm - 6am, 4 days on, 4 days off. The money is good, and the time off is excellent, and it really doesn't seem to be busy at all. It's call-centre work, and for most of the time I'm just sitting here doing squat.

I'm 4 hours in to my second shift and I am getting very tired. I didn't get much sleep last night -- sorry, this morning.

Driving home yesterday morning was bad news, I almost fell asleep a few times on the freeway. I don't want to be injesting caffiene before I go to bed either... :? So I'm looking for some night-shift tips here... For instance, should I maintain the weird hours on my off-days? 8 hours of sleep, or have naps during the day? Should I be prepared to become Zombified during my work-week?

Any night-shift pro-tips appreciated.

desperaterobots on

Posts

  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    it's your second shift, your body clock is fucked up, and it's going to be fucked up for a while. with 4 on, 4 off it'll take you a few weeks to really get used to it, but once you do it'll be fine. Just prepare to be a zombie for a couple weeks until you do.

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  • TK-42-1TK-42-1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    also, I suggest getting your schedule to be where you sleep up until your shift begins and then your freetime is afterwork. its easier to get your schedule that way, plus you get the normal business day to do any sort of errands you might need to take care of when everyone else is at work. it makes it awesome to almost never wait in line

    TK-42-1 on
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  • ANTVGM64ANTVGM64 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Be prepared for an odd social life though.

    I'm a second shifter, working 3-11 and sadly there isn't really a fuckofalot going on at 11pm most nights - I imagine even less at 6 or 7 in the am.

    ANTVGM64 on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks guys. I hadn't thought about doing it that way TK, not sure I like the idea of trying to get to sleep at 1 or 2pm though. If I wake up at 2.30-3pm I can still do some day stuff... and probably catch up with people for dinner too, so sleeping as soon as I get home might be a good way to go.

    desperaterobots on
  • TK-42-1TK-42-1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    yeah its different strokes and all that. i just found that if i had to wake up for any extended period before work during the day it would make me loathe being there overnight. waking up 40 minutes beforehand and showering and going to work made it one of those 'i dont know any better' things and getting off and relaxing for a while was pretty nice.

    people are right tho in saying that it takes a long while to get into that kind of rythmn tho

    TK-42-1 on
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  • AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Use a nightmask or make sure you have heavy curtains in your room so no sunlight gets in. Sunlight will reset your biological clock, so you need to train yourself that the morning/middle of the day is sleepy-time.

    Asiina on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Came across this recently. Apparently there might be a biological reset button for sleep cycles. Could help you if you decide you do want to shift your waking hours.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article687916.ece

    Darkewolfe on
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  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks D-Wolfe... How would that work. Don't eat for my 8 hour shift, then have 8-hours of sleep from 7am-2am, then eat, hey presto?

    I am intrigued.

    desperaterobots on
  • AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Came across this recently. Apparently there might be a biological reset button for sleep cycles. Could help you if you decide you do want to shift your waking hours.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article687916.ece

    This is also a good idea. Calculate in hours when you normally eat. Keep this cycle. If you eat breakfast about an hour after you wake up, then eat about an hour after you wake up in the afternoon now.

    Asiina on
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Stay awake. :P

    In all seriousness, I ended up working as a baker (9pm to 9 am) for about a year. I only got situated to the time by staying awake for about 36 hours until the time I wanted to go to sleep, then crashing and having a buddy/alarm wake me up when I wanted to start waking up regularly. Took about a half week of it but after that I was fine.

    Well, as fine as you can be on the night shift. You'LL Go a bIt CrAZY. tHIs is NormaL.

    Enc on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Thanks D-Wolfe... How would that work. Don't eat for my 8 hour shift, then have 8-hours of sleep from 7am-2am, then eat, hey presto?

    I am intrigued.

    It suggests a fasting period of at least 16 hours, so it would be more like: Don't eat for the eight hours preceding you going to bed. Don't eat while sleeping for 8 hours. Have breakfast when you wake up. You are now telling your body that that time is successful forage time, i.e. wakey-wakey time.

    Darkewolfe on
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  • ZeonZeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    My best advice: Dont swap your schedules on your days off.

    I did your exact shift (10-6) for 3.5 years. It was balls. But i had a lot less of a hard time with it than people who had kids and who would try and live normal lives on the weekend.

    I also second the suggestion about staying up after working, and sleeping until right before work. My best schedule looked something like this:

    7pm: Wake up, shower
    8pm: Eat, watch tv, play video games, whatever
    9:30pm: Leave for work
    6am: leave for home
    7am: eat, watch tv, go shopping, get drunk, whatever
    11am: sleep

    Its more like a "normal" persons schedule, i mean, you dont see people who work at 9am getting up at 1am and milling about. Yeah, you sacrifice time with friends and family, but you can always periodically adjust your schedule if you need to go out for a dinner or whatever. Weekends arent so bad except you'll get used to being the last one awake, always, and also become a big fan of breakfast beers if you have a lot of drinker friends. Plus this schedule will make it far less likely that you will start to feel tired in the middle of the night. Its hard to get tired if you just woke up 4 hours previous.

    Honestly though, night shift is balls, best advice would be to work your best to get another shift. Like i said i did exactly your shift (except mine was pretty much 7 days a week, with overtime...) for 3.5 years, and it was shit, it ruined my social life, and i never did anything except work and sleep because everything else always felt like a hassle (had to get up early or stay up all day, etc). Since you work at a callcenter, the turnover should be pretty decent, so if i were you id make it known now that you want to work another shift. Within a few months enough people should have quit that you can get moved, unless your callcenter services europe or something and they need to stock up on night shift.

    Zeon on
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  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Robots, I did the night shift for a year. Dont eat such a heavy meal during your break, you'll get nightmares when you go to sleep.... or should I say, daymares.

    MagicToaster on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    9:30pm: Leave for work
    6am: leave for home
    7am: sleep
    3pm: Wake up, hang out with friends till 9.

    I had a friend who kept this schedule. It'll be a little bit rougher in terms of not getting tired toward the end of your job, but if you're not concerned about always being number 1, great employee it can work. It also allows you to have a social life similar to that of someone who just goes to work (and therefore bed) early. Drinking is mostly out, though.

    Darkewolfe on
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  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Zeon: Thanks for that perspective. On night-shift being balls, I'm too early in to have been ground down by it yet, but I took this because it was less time at work for more money, with the added benefit of being so quiet that I can do art at work (manager approved, high five!). If it wasn't part time on this 4on/4off basis, I wouldn't have taken it up, but I'll see how I manage over the next few months, it might destroy me yet.

    D-Wolfe, I'm thinking this is how it will work out if I can manage a solid run of sleep during the day. Maybe on my off days I'll stay up only til about 3 or 4am, and sleep til noon or 1pm instead? I guess waking up hours before work is how some 'normal' people operate. You know, early risers who work 9-5 but are up at 5am to walk the dog and fix their kids lunches or.. something.

    desperaterobots on
  • TK-42-1TK-42-1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    9:30pm: Leave for work
    6am: leave for home
    7am: sleep
    3pm: Wake up, hang out with friends till 9.

    I had a friend who kept this schedule. It'll be a little bit rougher in terms of not getting tired toward the end of your job, but if you're not concerned about always being number 1, great employee it can work. It also allows you to have a social life similar to that of someone who just goes to work (and therefore bed) early. Drinking is mostly out, though.

    this is why i did the sleep->work->relax thing. there were drinks to drink and things to smoke that didnt really lend well to job performance

    TK-42-1 on
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  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I plan to leave any intoxicating activities to my days off, similar to my 9-5 days. No problemo.

    desperaterobots on
  • TrinisTrinis Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I used to work a similar one, midnight to 8am. I went to sleep as soon as I got home, and it worked out pretty well, but this was also a job where it didn't matter if I came in a bit drunk or whatever. Upstairs neighbor's kid running around sucked a bit, but my main problem was the way people who came to my door (landlord, UPS delivery, handyman, etc.) looked at me. It's 3 pm and I'm answering the door in no shirt and some pajama pants - I'm sure they thought I was below scum.

    Trinis on
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I occasionally work nights. It is far easier to keep your 3rd shift sleep schedule on the weekend than to keep on trying to adjust back and forth.

    Also, I find it way easier to get into working mids than swings. Maybe because I am more of a morning person than a night person.

    jclast on
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  • pinenut_canarypinenut_canary Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I worked as a stocker for Costco for a while. I started at 2 in the morning and ended at 10 in the morning. All the old people who worked there would sleep at 5 pm, wake up at 1, and then get ready to go to work. After finishing at 10, they go home, spend time with their family, mow the lawn, etc.

    For us young folks, after we ended our shift at 10 in the morning, we went to sleep until dinner time or so, and then hung out with friends from 7 until work. We pretty much did that even on our days off. Besides missing out on day things, we had excellent night life.

    What way are you doing it? I really don't have any advice on how to stay up. The work was pretty physical so it kept all of us up. A few of us would have coffee, but more for the warmth (the heat wasn't turned on at night). It took me about two weeks to get used to it all, and honestly, I enjoyed it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, you might try switching around when you sleep. It might help.

    pinenut_canary on
  • Teslan26Teslan26 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I have not worked night shifts in the way you are, all I want to say is:

    Just really focus on learning to drive whilst shattered. Fuck that up and people can die.

    You can use any of a hundred techniques, active driving is a good place to start, cold air/loud music/strong mints or gum can help. Talking through the road is also useful at times. What works for me, may not be what works for you. Really make this important and put your mind to it.

    Teslan26 on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Mids? Swings?

    Trinis: Noise distrupting my sleep is my biggest concern. I live on a main street (very noisy) and I have two housemates. I know they'll be conscious of my need for quiet, and we're all pretty quiet as it is, but shit happens. I might move house.

    desperaterobots on
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Sorry, Mids = third shift (or nights, graves, etc.) Swings = second shift.

    For my job:
    Days is 7:00 AM - 3:00 PM
    Swings is 3:00 PM - 11:00 PM
    Mids is 11:00 PM - 7:00 AM

    And each shift gets there 15 minutes early and stays 15 minutes late for an approximately 20 minute intershift meeting.

    jclast on
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  • ascannerlightlyascannerlightly Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    4 days on, 4 days off
    eight days a week, i loo-oo-oo-oo-oove you

    it'll take a while for your body to adjust. expect to feel like this for at least the rest of the week. eventually you'll shift to the sleep day / up night schedule. i worked graveyard for years, as a gas station clerk and as a rent-a-cop. mcdonald's breakfast is made all the more fantastic when you stroll into a mickey d's at 6 am and you've been up for 12 hours.

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  • shutzshutz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    If you're having trouble going to sleep when you go to bed, here's something you can try: in most drug stores, in the same section as the vitamins, supplements, or sometimes in the homeopathy sections, look for something called Melatonin.

    Melatonin is a substance that your body produces when it's dark, that tells your body to go to sleep. When your internal clock gets flipped upside-down by the night shift, you may find it harder to go to sleep after facing the daytime illumination that's outside. A melatonin supplement will help your internal clock to reset to your new shift, and will help you sleep, without acting like a sedative.

    One bonus that some people report when taking melatonin is that your dreams may feel more vivid. I certainly experienced some of that on occasion when taking melatonin, although I never took it with the aim of getting more vivid dreams.

    Also, follow the dosage on the container. I know this may seem obvious to most people, but taking more than the recommended dose is never a good idea.

    I also second the whole "get heavy curtains and make sure you can make your bedroom dark during the day" part. It might never get as dark as during a proper night, but you still want it as dark as you can make it. I never tried an eye mask (would probably annoy me too much) but making my room as dark as possible worked for me.

    You say noise might be a problem: the solution, here is to ensure a constant level of background noise, not to request total silence. Steady noise should work well towards helping you sleep better, and the occasional, not too loud noises shouldn't wake you, like they would if things were very silent. Worse comes to worse, get some of those background noise CDs, and play them when trying to go to sleep. White-noise-like sounds, like ocean waves and the wind, tend to be the best.

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  • Edgler VessEdgler Vess Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Im an Air Traffic Controller for the Department of Defense, been doing shift work for 11 years just some random thouhts:

    Everyone is different, what works for some (no naps, no caffine, no TV, blackout curtains, no sex, no booze, no rock and roll) may not work for you. Its going to take time and your going to be tired, if your job is good it will be worth it when your bills are paid and your family isn't starving.

    Staying awake techniques while your on shift are VTIAL, some folks use ridiculous bladder destroying amounts of coffee, others abuse OTC pain killers with caffine (excederine), still others spend retarded amounts of money on the energy shots, they all work to some degree but for some more than others.

    I hate fuckheads who come to work talking about how tired they are and about how they need to go home...fuck you, were all tired, were all shift workers...go fuck yourself and figure out what works for you or get a different job. Im sorry that Im crass but there isn't a shift worker in the world who hasn't done it for any extended period of time that hasnt heard it ALL...STFU and do your job or youll make no friends and gain no favors at work.

    Be careful how much you fuck with your sleep schedule on your days off, at least stay up late, graveyards are a bitch under any circumstances, humans are not nocturnal, Ive done 2 days 2 swings 2 graveyards 2 days off...for half my life....you have an advantage that you are on straight graveyards, adjust yourself and roll with it.

    Be careful with OTC (or prescription) sleeping medication, it can hurt you more in the long run than is worth not being tired for a month or two.

    Edgler Vess on
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  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    Having worked the past couple years on a night shift schedule (with the occasional "Fuck you just do it" random switches in schedules) and it really isn't that bad, just don't expect to get too much of a tan. Anyways the best schedule I have found is to get to sleep around 9am and wake around 4 or 5pm, that way you wake up around when everyone else gets off of work so you don't really miss anything by sleeping during the day.

    Also try not to switch your sleep schedule too much, it hurts bad on the first couple days back off it and it is hard to adjust on and off of it. What I usually do is go to sleep a couple hours early on the weekend so I can wake up earlier, but only by a couple hours.

    Oh and the best thing I found to stay awake is to keep mentally active, don't just drift off and start day dreaming try to keep occupied with something, and if that doesn't work I try and walk around or drink some water. Although I have a fairly physical job so I don't have much advice for staying awake.
    I hate fuckheads who come to work talking about how tired they are and about how they need to go home...fuck you, were all tired, were all shift workers...go fuck yourself and figure out what works for you or get a different job. Im sorry that Im crass but there isn't a shift worker in the world who hasn't done it for any extended period of time that hasnt heard it ALL...STFU and do your job or youll make no friends and gain no favors at work.
    You know some people have a life outside of work right? Baby keeps them up all night, wife keeps them up all day, bullshit military appointments during your off hours, any number of reasons but it happens. Sure bitching and crying about it can get annoying but if I feel especially fucked I am going to at least try to get off early. Like just last week I worked from 7am to 4pm and then they called me in to come into work that night at 11pm and I did not get off until 9am and at about 930am I got a call to go in for a drug test. I did not get to sleep until almost noon, and I had to show up for work at 11pm all while still being on a day shift schedule. I got maybe three hours of sleep, and no sleep the night before. I asked for time off, of course I didn't get it but I will always try and there is no harm in that when it is deserved.

    Fizban140 on
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Fizban140 wrote: »
    Having worked the past couple years on a night shift schedule (with the occasional "Fuck you just do it" random switches in schedules) and it really isn't that bad, just don't expect to get too much of a tan. Anyways the best schedule I have found is to get to sleep around 9am and wake around 4 or 5pm, that way you wake up around when everyone else gets off of work so you don't really miss anything by sleeping during the day.

    Also try not to switch your sleep schedule too much, it hurts bad on the first couple days back off it and it is hard to adjust on and off of it. What I usually do is go to sleep a couple hours early on the weekend so I can wake up earlier, but only by a couple hours.

    Oh and the best thing I found to stay awake is to keep mentally active, don't just drift off and start day dreaming try to keep occupied with something, and if that doesn't work I try and walk around or drink some water. Although I have a fairly physical job so I don't have much advice for staying awake.
    I hate fuckheads who come to work talking about how tired they are and about how they need to go home...fuck you, were all tired, were all shift workers...go fuck yourself and figure out what works for you or get a different job. Im sorry that Im crass but there isn't a shift worker in the world who hasn't done it for any extended period of time that hasnt heard it ALL...STFU and do your job or youll make no friends and gain no favors at work.
    You know some people have a life outside of work right? Baby keeps them up all night, wife keeps them up all day, bullshit military appointments during your off hours, any number of reasons but it happens. Sure bitching and crying about it can get annoying but if I feel especially fucked I am going to at least try to get off early. Like just last week I worked from 7am to 4pm and then they called me in to come into work that night at 11pm and I did not get off until 9am and at about 930am I got a call to go in for a drug test. I did not get to sleep until almost noon, and I had to show up for work at 11pm all while still being on a day shift schedule. I got maybe three hours of sleep, and no sleep the night before. I asked for time off, of course I didn't get it but I will always try and there is no harm in that when it is deserved.

    There's a difference between being they guy who asks the shift lead for time off once for valid reasons and the guy who sits on shift and bitches because "I can't believe I'm at work at 3:00 in the morning! God, I'm so tired! This is the worst! Can I go home? Why did this have to happen to me?"

    jclast on
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  • ArasenArasen Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Been working weekend nights, 7pm-8am, for almost 4 years now. Your body will get used to it, it just takes a little time. I usually try and stay up pretty late the night before I work so I can sleep in and start adjusting my body to a night schedule. When at work I usually drink a couple cups of coffee throughout the night and stop around 3 or 4am. By then I'm through to mid part of the shift, which is for me the worst, and have enough energy to stay awake until I get home. Working as an EMT, so some nights you run all night long and others you don't turn the wheel once.
    So yeah, my advice, try adjusting to a night shift at least a bit before going to work. Give your body time to get used to making these turn arounds. Find out what part of shift you really start feeling tired and drink coffee according to that or just space a couple cups throughout the shift to sip on. Also, room darkening shades are a god send for sleeping through the day. That or just hang a dark sheet over window.

    Arasen on
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  • Fizban140Fizban140 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2009
    jclast wrote: »
    Fizban140 wrote: »
    Having worked the past couple years on a night shift schedule (with the occasional "Fuck you just do it" random switches in schedules) and it really isn't that bad, just don't expect to get too much of a tan. Anyways the best schedule I have found is to get to sleep around 9am and wake around 4 or 5pm, that way you wake up around when everyone else gets off of work so you don't really miss anything by sleeping during the day.

    Also try not to switch your sleep schedule too much, it hurts bad on the first couple days back off it and it is hard to adjust on and off of it. What I usually do is go to sleep a couple hours early on the weekend so I can wake up earlier, but only by a couple hours.

    Oh and the best thing I found to stay awake is to keep mentally active, don't just drift off and start day dreaming try to keep occupied with something, and if that doesn't work I try and walk around or drink some water. Although I have a fairly physical job so I don't have much advice for staying awake.
    I hate fuckheads who come to work talking about how tired they are and about how they need to go home...fuck you, were all tired, were all shift workers...go fuck yourself and figure out what works for you or get a different job. Im sorry that Im crass but there isn't a shift worker in the world who hasn't done it for any extended period of time that hasnt heard it ALL...STFU and do your job or youll make no friends and gain no favors at work.
    You know some people have a life outside of work right? Baby keeps them up all night, wife keeps them up all day, bullshit military appointments during your off hours, any number of reasons but it happens. Sure bitching and crying about it can get annoying but if I feel especially fucked I am going to at least try to get off early. Like just last week I worked from 7am to 4pm and then they called me in to come into work that night at 11pm and I did not get off until 9am and at about 930am I got a call to go in for a drug test. I did not get to sleep until almost noon, and I had to show up for work at 11pm all while still being on a day shift schedule. I got maybe three hours of sleep, and no sleep the night before. I asked for time off, of course I didn't get it but I will always try and there is no harm in that when it is deserved.

    There's a difference between being they guy who asks the shift lead for time off once for valid reasons and the guy who sits on shift and bitches because "I can't believe I'm at work at 3:00 in the morning! God, I'm so tired! This is the worst! Can I go home? Why did this have to happen to me?"
    Ya I can't stand the people who try and claim that they just aren't "made" for any shift other than day shift, and bitch and whine until they get off of it. Everyone has trouble adjusting to a weird shift schedule.

    Fizban140 on
  • Blake TBlake T Do you have enemies then? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    One of the best tricks to help re sync your body clock is to do some light exercise as soon as you get up.

    A 5 or 10 minute jog is all you really need.

    Blake T on
  • GlaealGlaeal Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I've been working horrible schedules for a while now, and what works for me is really a combination of a lot of the things that other people have mentioned so far, with some other stuff I've read in other threads and other things that were trial and error.

    1. No caffeine within 6 hours of bedtime
    2. Darken the room as much as possible. If you have a window that doesn't face the street, go so far as taping aluminum (aluminium) foil up in your window.
    3. Go to sleep and wake up at the same time every day, whether you're working or not. This was a really important one for me. If you regulate your sleep times, your body will adapt and your sleep will be more restful. If you rotate shifts, which I did for three years, you can't do this, but if you're on the same shift for any more than a week or two, it's vital.
    4. Avoid sleeping pills. They may knock you out, but they make it harder to sleep the next night. Also, if you have problems with Apnea, sedative sleeping pills can kill you.
    5. Don't do anything in your bed except for sleeping and sex. Don't read, don't watch TV. Make your body associate bed with sleep.
    6. Use white noise. I have a fan in my room that's on every night when I sleep. It gives me a constant noise to focus on that calms me down, and it also covers up any incidental noises in the house, such as a screaming three year old, that might wake me up. A radio tuned to static at a low volume can also work, or waste money on a white noise generator. The only problem this has created for me is that I have problems sleeping when I travel if I don't take a fan with me.

    Maintaining a routine is really the biggest thing. Once your body has adapted to a routine you should start feeling better.

    Welcome to the shitty part of the day.

    Glaeal on
  • ZeonZeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Oh yeah i will doubly second the white noise thing. I used to have a hell of a time sleeping straight through, any little noise would wake me up which sucked. I finally started playing music at a really low volume. Softer, calming music, no rock or hip hop or anything. I sleep really well now, except as noted above, when i go away and forget to take my ipod with me.

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  • MephistophelesMephistopheles Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I did night shift for a year (10pm-8am, 4 days a week). I also didn't drink caffeine at the time. What worked for me was:
    8 am - leave work
    9 am - eat dinner / watch tv
    10 am - hit the sack
    4 pm - wake up, do errands before stuff closes, hang with friends
    8/8:30 pm - take an hour or so nap before work
    9:30 pm - go into work

    Secondly, when you wake up, use some really bright lights. You really need this.

    Of course I also gained like 50 pounds during this time, so YMMV. You'll find out what works for you.

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    - Gary Busey
    A Glass, Darkly
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