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Atlas Shrugged: Why is this so bad?

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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    Haven't read it. I was thinking about it but somebody told me Fountainhead was a better, shorter sampling of Rand's fiction, so I read that. It was pretty awful.

    I would say that Fountainhead is worse, actually, but then I'm biased what with her using an architect as the protagonist(?) of the book.

    Both of them violate some pretty basic realities, though. Fountainhead pretty much is exactly the opposite of what architecture is, and Atlas defies the second law of thermodynamics. Which is just about the only way that her 'philosophy' could work. If the laws of the universe were to just be suspended for no apparent reason.

    You're making me want to read this.

    The main character basically invents a perpetual motion machine, but doesn't want to share his free energy.

    He also thinks that the people who financed its construction and his research have no stake in it, as they didn't help him at all.

    Scalfin on
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  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Lanz wrote: »
    now, I haven't read the book myself, but I believe I read what was supposed to be a trustworthy summary of the premise and the events that trigger the plot in the book, so I must ask: doesn't that completely undermine Galt's whole little tizzy?

    Which part specifically? Galt's speech is incredibly long..

    Shizumaru on
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Lanz wrote: »
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    atlas shrugged is terrible because objectivism is terrible

    because it is a way for selfish people to justify being selfish

    and it came to be because Rand grew up in a horrible place and came to what she saw as a capitalist paradise in comparison, which she basically came to worship

    I think people sometimes misconstrue 'selfishness' with 'rational self-interest' as the two are quite different.. There really wasn't a time where it was stated that you should be 'selfish' at the cost and/or potential burden of others so that you can pursue your own personal and self-fulfilling desires. It had more to do with valuing yourself and what you are capable as man, and that the pursuit of your own rational self-interest/happiness was your highest moral value.

    I do however understand, and agree that growing up in a communistic country and immigrating to a capitalist nation would largely skew her beliefs. That said, I still see nothing wrong with capitalism in general, as it is what founded this country. However, I will say that I don't agree with Rand in the idea of Laissez-faire capitalism as it does need to be regulated. Rand also didn't believe in patents and copyright law either, which I don't agree with.

    now, I haven't read the book myself, but I believe I read what was supposed to be a trustworthy summary of the premise and the events that trigger the plot in the book, so I must ask: doesn't that completely undermine Galt's whole little tizzy?


    Well if someone rips off Galt they'll either be selling for a lower price in which case fuck Galt that's business for you, they'll have to sell above Galt and then fuck them because that's business for you, or Galt will be rich enough to hire a bunch of guys with guns to shoot up whoever's ripping him off because fuck the police, goddamn government, right?

    Khavall on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    now, I haven't read the book myself, but I believe I read what was supposed to be a trustworthy summary of the premise and the events that trigger the plot in the book, so I must ask: doesn't that completely undermine Galt's whole little tizzy?

    Which part specifically? Galt's speech is incredibly long..

    The whole thing is about Galt wanting sole rights to the machine and all those evil poor people trying to take it away. Without any sort of proprietary law, there is nothing stopping everybody and their uncle building their own.

    Scalfin on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Elki wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    Haven't read it. I was thinking about it but somebody told me Fountainhead was a better, shorter sampling of Rand's fiction, so I read that. It was pretty awful.

    I would say that Fountainhead is worse, actually, but then I'm biased what with her using an architect as the protagonist(?) of the book.

    Both of them violate some pretty basic realities, though. Fountainhead pretty much is exactly the opposite of what architecture is, and Atlas defies the second law of thermodynamics. Which is just about the only way that her 'philosophy' could work. If the laws of the universe were to just be suspended for no apparent reason.

    You're making me want to read this.

    It's just a perpetual motion machine. It's not worth reading the thing.

    Fencingsax on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    now, I haven't read the book myself, but I believe I read what was supposed to be a trustworthy summary of the premise and the events that trigger the plot in the book, so I must ask: doesn't that completely undermine Galt's whole little tizzy?

    Which part specifically? Galt's speech is incredibly long..

    The whole thing is about Galt wanting sole rights to the machine and all those evil poor people trying to take it away. Without any sort of proprietary law, there is nothing stopping everybody and their uncle building their own.
    Other than his magical Galtness? Not really.

    He just refused to share the methods of it's construction.

    OptimusZed on
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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited October 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    Haven't read it. I was thinking about it but somebody told me Fountainhead was a better, shorter sampling of Rand's fiction, so I read that. It was pretty awful.

    I would say that Fountainhead is worse, actually, but then I'm biased what with her using an architect as the protagonist(?) of the book.

    Both of them violate some pretty basic realities, though. Fountainhead pretty much is exactly the opposite of what architecture is, and Atlas defies the second law of thermodynamics. Which is just about the only way that her 'philosophy' could work. If the laws of the universe were to just be suspended for no apparent reason.

    You're making me want to read this.

    The main character basically invents a perpetual motion machine, but doesn't want to share his free energy.

    huh

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    Shizumaru on
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    He was getting compensated, he just didn't like the idea of anyone else ever getting any slice of his pie.

    Khavall on
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    now, I haven't read the book myself, but I believe I read what was supposed to be a trustworthy summary of the premise and the events that trigger the plot in the book, so I must ask: doesn't that completely undermine Galt's whole little tizzy?

    Which part specifically? Galt's speech is incredibly long..

    the parts that everyone above me is referencing.


    Since I cannot reasonably formulate, at this moment, an argument that denies the validity of patents and copyright, yet still holds you have the right to the fruits of your creative output.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The whole thing about the motor is that society and/or looters had no right to his invention, amd they were trying to take it by force

    Shizumaru on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    Didn't he tell the venture capitalists who compensated him for his work to go fuck themselves?

    moniker on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    You have infinite free energy, you can get whatever you want, as can everybody else. That's why economics is the study of how limited resources are distributed.

    Scalfin on
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  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    What are Rand's views about pragmatism? Am I Stalin if I intuit a world I want to live in and base my rules on whether they lead to a desired result rather than drill down to principles I must abide by regardless of the result? Are principled people as good as we intuitively think they are?

    themightypuck on
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    The whole thing about the motor is that society and/or looters had no right to his invention, amd they were trying to take it by force

    But they weren't. At all.

    They wanted to pay him.

    He claimed that everyone was out to rob him blind because he wanted more.

    Khavall on
  • Lord Of The PantsLord Of The Pants Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I don't like it because:
    1. The characters are mostly unlikeable.
    2. The ideal moral "balance" is a bit too far to the right.
    3. The characters really need to get laid, but that doesn't fix anything. The scene where Dagny is about to get boned but the guy is just sitting there lecturing her about some shit really sums it up. o_O
    4. Instead of sex being a "big relief" for all the characters, it instead further winds them up and drives them further. Makes me wonder what kind of sex Ayn Rand was having. :winky:
    5. The "utopian paradise" is a bit silly. In brief, everybody is a jerk, so lets come up with an ultra elitist anti jerk society that is even more jerkier than the original society.
    6. In full: I don't like the ultra right wing "you have to work to earn money to pay for things." theory for a reason. I'm not a socialist, I don't believe that everything should be equal, but what I don't' like is that every person in this goddamn society is a souless wreck with no compassion and believes that money drives the world. It does, but social interactions should be about more than that. She also doesn't elaborate more on the family thing, I believe Galt mentions that some "Exceptions are made for family" but thats it. I believe, sure, that you should have to earn your place in a society, but not to some weird extent. If someone wants to borrow my car, sure I'll say if you are driving for six hours fill up the tank when you are done, but I'm not going to say NO YOU MUST HIRE MY CAR FROM ME.
    7. Dagny literally fucks every guy in the book. The only exception is the pirate because he's not around long enough. And Dagny only wants to be a slave for the John Galt. :winky:
    8. The speech, jesus christ, the speech.
    9. The scene with the train in the tunnel. Really? Really?
    10. Oh yes, the plot device of "I will blackmail the one person in the world that doesn't car what people think about her." is silly.

    What I liked:
    1. Who is John Galt? Motiff.
    2. The people dissapearing is a cool plot device.
    3. I like trains. This book is about a girl building a railroad.
    4. The incredible sense of self empowerment you get reading the book. From most people I've talked too who have read a most of all of the book agree that you really get the philosophy that I'm worth something, and I should be rewarded for my efforts. Really made me feel like I was valuable, and I'm glad I read the book for that reason.

    In summary: I didn't like the book or it's core political beliefs, but I did get some interesting personal philosophies from it. :)

    Lord Of The Pants on
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  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    He was getting compensated, he just didn't like the idea of anyone else ever getting any slice of his pie.
    Shizumaru wrote:
    The whole thing about the motor is that society and/or looters had no right to his invention, amd they were trying to take it by force

    Shizumaru on
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I like dirty transgressive sex but Rand sure can't write about it very well. It reads like bad romance novel cliches.

    themightypuck on
    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    He was getting compensated, he just didn't like the idea of anyone else ever getting any slice of his pie.
    Shizumaru wrote:
    The whole thing about the motor is that society and/or looters had no right to his invention, amd they were trying to take it by force

    You're missing the part where that's not what happened

    Khavall on
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    He was getting compensated, he just didn't like the idea of anyone else ever getting any slice of his pie.

    In my opinion, here are the things I'd expect:

    A) The credit for it's discovery/invention
    B) a cut of the earnings for every unit sold if sold in such a manner, maybe a bonus.
    C) The fact I will never likely have to pay for energy again because holy fuck I just invented a perpetual energy generator

    I'd muchly accept the argument that my invention is, however, almost immediately a public utility that should not ever be controlled by just one person or company, because, again, perpetual freaking energy. Myself and the rest of the human race will benefit much greater, most likely, if it was considered as such and not as a device I could sell for oodles of money.

    Lanz on
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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Somebody needs to post actual text so we can see if Shizu's right, or if everyone else is.

    Captain Carrot on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    Also, didn't he destroy the nation's infrastructure before leaving with his merry band of Randians, and then put forward the nation's collapse as evidence that the nation couldn't survive without Randians" It couldn't possibly have been that the nation was built around the infrastructure you just bombed.

    Scalfin on
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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited October 2009
    After Fountainhead I'm fine with not reading about any Rand character getting laid.

    Elki on
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    ..oh god.

    It's being made into a movie


    I imagine a 7-hour speech

    Khavall on
  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Just the idea that you invent an infinite free energy source and are more worried about getting proper credit for it then how it is going to fundamentally change the world and is likely the first step towards a utopian society just boggles my mind.

    kdrudy on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    He was getting compensated, he just didn't like the idea of anyone else ever getting any slice of his pie.
    Shizumaru wrote:
    The whole thing about the motor is that society and/or looters had no right to his invention, amd they were trying to take it by force
    moniker wrote: »
    Didn't he tell the venture capitalists who compensated him for his work to go fuck themselves?

    moniker on
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    Didn't he tell the venture capitalists who compensated him for his work to go fuck themselves?

    "Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"
    "Of Course!"

    "Is a shareholder not entitled to the fruits of the enterprise they fund?"
    "NO, SCREW YOU"

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    [*]The incredible sense of self empowerment you get reading the book. From most people I've talked too who have read a most of all of the book agree that you really get the philosophy that I'm worth something, and I should be rewarded for my efforts. Really made me feel like I was valuable, and I'm glad I read the book for that reason.
    [/LIST]

    In summary: I didn't like the book or it's core political beliefs, but I did get some interesting personal philosophies from it. :)

    This is what I think people are misconstruing for selfishness. As for your other points, I agree with some, most notably the train scene. Some, like the car notion may be a little far fetched and I won't comment on the sex stuff:winky:

    that all said, thanks to everyone so far for contributing their thoughts

    Shizumaru on
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Lanz wrote: »

    Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? Of Course!

    That doesn't really cover things though. Stealing takes work. Sweat of brow work. The classic example is: say I learn to fight and you learn to farm. You have food and I have fighting skills. I trade my fighting skills into some of your food.

    themightypuck on
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm not a socialist
    I think you'd probably be surprised, actually.

    OptimusZed on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    ..oh god.

    It's being made into a movie


    I imagine a 7-hour speech

    It, like Ender's Game, is impossible to film.

    enlightenedbum on
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Lanz wrote: »

    Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? Of Course!

    That doesn't really cover things though. Stealing takes work. Sweat of brow work. The classic example is: say I learn to fight and you learn to farm. You have food and I have fighting skills. I trade my fighting skills into some of your food.

    Right, which is why objectivism is stupid

    In fact that was like, the entire point of the Rapture setting of Bioshock.

    Khavall on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Khavall wrote: »
    ..oh god.

    It's being made into a movie


    I imagine a 7-hour speech
    Because this is exactly what we need right now.

    Who's playing Galt; Stallone, Willis or Schwarzenegger?

    OptimusZed on
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  • Ethan SmithEthan Smith Origin name: Beart4to Arlington, VARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Yeah, the guy comes up with a way to get infinite free energy. And then other people think that such a discovery should be shared by the people instead of either restricted to only the rich or all the money flowing directly to this guy when he wants to sell it.

    How dare those other people!

    It was never stated that it should be held out to the highest bidder. But don't you think, that if you invented something of value, that you should be duly compensated for you time and energy and investment for such a thing? Should someone just willingly give away something for which they extended themselves for?

    But no one invents anything in a vacuum

    Ethan Smith on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    kdrudy wrote: »
    Just the idea that you invent an infinite free energy source and are more worried about getting proper credit for it then how it is going to fundamentally change the world and is likely the first step towards a utopian society just boggles my mind.

    This, very much this. The value of your money, the very fundamental underpinnings of society would change with widespread adoption of this device.

    In my mind, the potential benefits to the human race (of which I am a part) are so great that it's worth more than the numbers in my bank account rising.

    Make no mistake, if some regular guy discovered Galt's device, and patented it, he would be compensated. In objectivistland that compensation wouldn't be enough, but in realland, the billions he would likely make along with the fact that his name would go down in history forever because of it would be enough compensation.

    I mean seriously, being another rich guy is great, but perpetual motion would change the entire planet, kids would be reading about you in school (or getting your name beamed into your head or whatever) thousands of years in the future.

    override367 on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    [*]The incredible sense of self empowerment you get reading the book. From most people I've talked too who have read a most of all of the book agree that you really get the philosophy that I'm worth something, and I should be rewarded for my efforts. Really made me feel like I was valuable, and I'm glad I read the book for that reason.
    [/LIST]

    In summary: I didn't like the book or it's core political beliefs, but I did get some interesting personal philosophies from it. :)

    This is what I think people are misconstruing for selfishness.

    No one is misconstruing anything for selfishness. It's a book about a bunch of selfish pricks.

    HamHamJ on
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  • ShizumaruShizumaru Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Lanz wrote: »
    "Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"
    "Of Course!"

    "Is a shareholder not entitled to the fruits of the enterprise they fund?"
    "NO, SCREW YOU"

    In the book it isn't set up that way. Galt work at a motor company which got taken over, wherein the new owners stated that every worker will now only be compensated by their own need, not by their value, and so that everything they do thereafter did not directly benefit them, but that their labor was for the sake of others. Galt leaves the factory with said motor, factory eventually goes to shit,etc.

    Shizumaru on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    She stated that the ideal man didn't care about others at all, and did things solely for his own benefit without regard to how it hurt everyone else. If that's not selfish, I don't know what is.

    Because I've never seen it worded this way specifically I'll have to disagree in the context of not caring at all about others.

    How about the fact that she idolized as the perfect Objectivist a sociopath who kidnapped, murdered, and mutilated a young girl?

    And no, I am not making this up whatsoever.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    "Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"
    "Of Course!"

    "Is a shareholder not entitled to the fruits of the enterprise they fund?"
    "NO, SCREW YOU"

    In the book it isn't set up that way. Galt work at a motor company which got taken over, wherein the new owners stated that every worker will now only be compensated by their own need, not by their value, and so that everything they do thereafter did not directly benefit them, but that their labor was for the sake of others. Galt leaves the factory with said motor, factory eventually goes to shit,etc.

    They bought the company and all the inventions. They own the motor. If he doesn't like it, he can quit, but he can't take the stuff they just bought.

    Scalfin on
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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Shizumaru wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    "Is a Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"
    "Of Course!"

    "Is a shareholder not entitled to the fruits of the enterprise they fund?"
    "NO, SCREW YOU"

    In the book it isn't set up that way. Galt work at a motor company which got taken over, wherein the new owners stated that every worker will now only be compensated by their own need, not by their value, and so that everything they do thereafter did not directly benefit them, but that their labor was for the sake of others. Galt leaves the factory with said motor, factory eventually goes to shit,etc.

    Galt then sabatoges the entire infrastructure of the society, takes a bunch of other smart people, blows a bunch of shit up, and then talks for 5 days straight about how he shouldn't have to obey contracts or laws instead of going to a different company.

    Khavall on
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