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[DnD 4E Discussion] Underdark book does use the terms "Feydark" and "Shadowdark"
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Correction, I bought Divine. And told you Primal was there. I were is my credit?
I bought Divine after you bought Divine. :P
And are you giving peoples tasty infos? No.
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They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The Cindersoul power is roughly 300% better for a party's primary defender. Preventing tons of damage on an attack vs depriving your party of their Defender for a turn.
Voidsoul is great for Rogues or melee Rangers. Or controllers of any sort. The problem for Defenders is that they largely do their job when it's not their turn. They're unique in this. So disappearing for an entire round of enemy attacks and movement is the exact opposite of doing your job.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
After some Googling, I can say that this issue is... controversial.
I am going to rule that vertical teleportation is possible, but the target gets a save. If the save succeeds, there is no vertical teleportation, but the caster still can move the target horizontally anywhere he pleases.
Edit: For last night's game, for example, I would have ruled that if the targets of Conrad's Twist of Space had missed their save, it would've been insta-splat. If they made the save, Conrad would still get to teleport them, but he'd have to choose a square of solid ground, most likely the very edge of the cliff. This actually makes teleporting only OK at knocking someone off a cliff compared to push/pull/slide powers, because you don't get the prone effect on a failed save. On the other hand, every teleport power now has the potential to do extra fall damage, so it's a trade off.
Seems.... inconsistent.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Forced movement and teleportation CANNOT move you vertically, RAW. There is a citation there somewhere, and I don't know exactly where, but it's explicit and I am about 95% sure on that.
The question was asked last thread, when talking about Avengers putting people into the air and then teleporting above them to send them crashing down to the ground. Which is AWESOME. But you can't do it
Forced movement is generally not allowed to be vertical. By proxy teleporting a hostile target is forced movement so I wouldn't allow a not strictly vertical offensive port. Also, making someone go straight up and fall could knock them prone too, iirc so yea... no.
Since other forced movement grants a save over ledges and such I'd say it gets a save, and if it fails the target isn't teleported, but the damage and other effects would apply, unless those are contingent upon the teleport's success. I think you're right.
If you really wanted to be a dick about and police it though on the DM's side... you could point out that you can't see air. But that's a real dick move. But you'd something really cool happening like a readying an action to throw a ball over a pit, when the other starts his turn, and then the teleporting-able player teleporting his target to the ball... and etc, etc.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
No, you'd get a save any time someone tries to teleport you into an aeriel square, whether it's straight up or over a cliff.
There really isn't. I've been looking. In fact there's even a sidebar in Draconomicon that says forced teleportation can cause instant falling, but advises the DM not to do it to players.
1. The ruling we found might only be for forced movement
2. That could be talking about instant falling by teleportation off of cliffs.
3. Possibly both.
By the way: Top of page 286 in the PHB covers forced movement, including "Forced movement can't move target into a square they couldn't enter by walking," and "If you're forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall."
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I'm pretty sure only pushes, pulls, and slides are defined as "forced movement." Teleportation gets a different section.
This is 100% Correct. Pushes, pulls, and slides are all "Forced Movement." RAW it appears that teleportation powers are simply incredibly good. Remind me to use them to prone everything ever.
haha, yes, I understood that before I posed the question.
Of course cindersoul's racial power is better for defenders, but the voidsoul PP is fantastic for defenders.
There are certainly moments when a defender is unable to mark things/close distance and I feel like it has potential use there. I'm wondering if there are specific events that could arise in which void assumption might be worth using for a defender. Granted, so far I haven't really thought of any instance where I would use it, but I still feel like one exists. Hell, it could even be an out of combat RP use, whatever.
I am open to the idea that teleportation is overpowered. As a game designer, my solution to this would not be to illogically nerf teleportation, but to make teleportation powers far less common.
I think the horse is out of the barn on that one.
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They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
It is defined differently though, like close attacks vs area attacks. They're almost the same thing... almost.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
So you think you can't teleport someone into a space "they couldn't get to by walking"? You can't teleport someone into a cage, or onto the floor of a pit, or onto a rooftop, or to the other side of a ravine, or at the bottom of a river, or on the branch of a tree...?
I mean, if you could teleport vertically, there'd never really be any reason to do anything else. move somebody six squares against their will into a disadvantageous position, or just teleport them 6 squares straight up, causing them to take 3d10 falling damage and end up prone? not even close to a contest.
Edit: I'd swear I've seen this specifically written down somewhere, but damned if I can remember where.
But I mean... teleportation, is it even MENTIONED in that section? Because they mention pushes, pulls, and slides, but not teleports iirc.
Those are all places you can, for the most part, see and walk to assuming no actively blocking factors. So they are legal... The only issue is with the air really. That's where specific and general would sort of balance out.
i think logically it follows that being shoved/pushed allows you to grab a ledge--but being teleported takes you out of this material space & into another one--so your ability to grab a ledge is non-existent. that's why I'd let someone teleport someone over a cliff, and just not allow my BBG to stand too close to the cliff ;-) (Or have some interrupt that prevented that type of thing)
this is kind of a silly debate (quote:including "Forced movement can't move target into a square they couldn't enter by walking," )
This makes it clear that "forced movement" is when you control someone else's actual PHYSICAL movement through the physical/main realm. That's why they can't be forced into a cage, for instance, or up a tree, cos how would they get there while being shoved/pulled/dragged?
Teleport is different because it skips physical limitations. That is why teleport exists.
Ultimately it's overpowered by nature & I think wizards should probably modify it so there is a weaker version that "quick steps" someone 6 squares instead of popping them out of earth & back in a new spot.
That's really not a relevant objection. Nobody has suggested you should be able to teleport someone out of your line of sight.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Bonus points if anyone is dumb enough to try to teleport next to him...
*There is already a Ritual for this, but I can't remember the exact name.
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Besides, if we really want to go with logic, the best use of offensive teleportation is just leaving the enemy in the Feywild instead of bringing them back at all.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
It doesn't say ""normal movement." It doesn't say "climbing" or "swimming" or even "falling." it says walking. If teleportation is forced movement, you can't teleport someone to any of those places.
see edit.
edit: that was weird.
Because they're quantified in completely different sections. For the record, there are plenty of powers that push or slide your allies. (Packmaster of Maldeen jumps to mind).
These are the RAW, anything else is house rules.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
visual shoving someone around
that's why it's limited to "walking". You are literally shoving someone to a new spot. (Or tripping them & sending them tumbling/etc etc) That's why they get a save.
Teleport can not and should not work that way, but it should have some limitations placed on it because it's super-powerful. Those limitations could be flavor-imposed (i.e. Avengers can only teleport targets to them to hit, because it's a manifestation of their subconcious desire to hurt their target)
I don't think all versions of teleport need to be tied to the feywild, either--that seems like a stretch--that's a part of eladrin's innate tie to the feywild, not the basic magic of teleport.
--
Edit
See, while it really is OP, I just think it's silly to limit it by shoe-horning it into "forced movement". Forced movement works very well and is a nice, simple system. Why break it to weaken teleport? Why not find another way to do the same thing?
If you are going to start houseruling/RAIing, it's better to do this in a modular sense then to modify a core rule that works beautifully. Forced movement is great as is, so come up with limitations on teleportation.
Forced movement should be defined as "any movement that you are taking against your will." If that's a house rule, yippee.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I think you need to read page 285 PHB into page 286 and realize that all the limitations on Pushes, Pulls, and Slides (collectively defined as forced movement) don't apply to teleports at all. Only the limitations on Teleports under the teleports sub-heading apply to teleports.
EDIT: It is a house rule, one that I agree with.
I'm really just making sure the record is straight and nobody gets confused as to what the book really says.
RAW, I think vertical teleportation is possible, barring future errata.
My above-mentioned ruling (no aeriel teleportation of any kind without a save) is total house rule, and actually makes teleportation less effective for using deep pits than push/slide/pull.