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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I think she would have talked longer, pumped him for info.

    He was killed by someone who already knew what he was going to say or didn't care.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I always thought Asmodian was killed by a gholam, I forget if they ever found his corpse or if Rand just thought he disappeared.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    From what I remember, isn't there something about his words 'hanging in the air' after he died, or something else that pointed towards balefire?

    Reynolds on
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rand remembers him, so no.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    you'd have to balefire someone pretty hard to not remember them at all. Only Rand has come even close to making one that fuckoff huge since even the Forsaken don't use balefire.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rand remembers him, so no.

    That doesn't make any sense.

    You could balefire him with just a bit and he'd only be gone for a few seconds before he came in.

    shryke on
  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    you'd have to balefire someone pretty hard to not remember them at all. Only Rand has come even close to making one that fuckoff huge since even the Forsaken don't use balefire.

    That's not entirely true, you know. I'm curious as to just how tangled that is, actually.

    Linden on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Which part isn't entirely true. The Forsaken do use balefire I guess. But not much, and certainly not enough to erase the entirety of a person's existence.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    How did the first person who created Balefire remember it, since it would have gone back in time and removed itself?

    Fencingsax on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    How did the first person who created Balefire remember it, since it would have gone back in time and removed itself?

    Huh?

    No it wouldn't have. It's pretty well established that the wielder of the balefire has at least some protection from the timeline reshuffling itself.

    shryke on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    How did the first person who created Balefire remember it, since it would have gone back in time and removed itself?

    Huh?

    No it wouldn't have. It's pretty well established that the wielder of the balefire has at least some protection from the timeline reshuffling itself.

    I thought the balefire itself burned the threads of time or whatever. So would the fire burn itself?

    Note: I'm being mostly facetious.

    Fencingsax on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    How did the first person who created Balefire remember it, since it would have gone back in time and removed itself?

    Huh?

    No it wouldn't have. It's pretty well established that the wielder of the balefire has at least some protection from the timeline reshuffling itself.

    I thought the balefire itself burned the threads of time or whatever. So would the fire burn itself?

    Note: I'm being mostly facetious.

    It burns the threads of whatever you shoot. Then the rest of reality goes all crazy for a instant to try and re-order itself given the lack of something that was there before.

    The thread of the person who shot the balefire isn't burned at all. So you remember how to do it.

    In fact, there seems to be an immunity to the re-ordering effect granted to the person who creates the Balefire.

    shryke on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I always thought a good way to seal the DO's prison was to mega balefire Lanfear, as she was one of the people who opened it in the first place. Probably using one or both of the big sa'angreal. Probably not going to happen that way now. And the side effects of BFing that far back would be interesting.

    Aether on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Aether wrote: »
    I always thought a good way to seal the DO's prison was to mega balefire Lanfear, as she was one of the people who opened it in the first place. Probably using one or both of the big sa'angreal. Probably not going to happen that way now. And the side effects of BFing that far back would be interesting.

    Balefiring 4000 years out of existence would certainly destroy reality.

    shryke on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Aether wrote: »
    I always thought a good way to seal the DO's prison was to mega balefire Lanfear, as she was one of the people who opened it in the first place. Probably using one or both of the big sa'angreal. Probably not going to happen that way now. And the side effects of BFing that far back would be interesting.

    Balefiring 4000 years out of existence would certainly destroy reality.

    Yeah, but balefire doesn't completely remove what happened, people still have a sense of what happened before the balefire. When Rand BFed Rahvin, Asmodean "came back" to life, but some people seemed to think he SHOULD be dead. Similarly when Rand BFed the darkhound in the waste that was going after Mat, he went from "probably should be dead" to "what a nasty rash on your arm".

    I understand were talking several orders of magnitude difference timewise / power used, and its a moot point now that
    both of the access ter-angreal are toast.

    Aether on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's not just a matter of time and power, but historical consequence. The deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions of people. The creation of all the shadowspawn. The Breaking of the World. That's a massive amount of change to reweave. Nobody currently would be still be in existence with those changes made. The balefirer would probably have Grandfather Paradoxed himself.

    Both sides stopped using Balefire in the War of the Shadow after seeing the effects of some cities removed anywhere between a few hours and a few days back. Your plan would absolutely wreck shit. It would probably be even worse than grumpy Rand winning.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's not just a matter of time and power, but historical consequence. The deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions of people. The creation of all the shadowspawn. The Breaking of the World. That's a massive amount of change to reweave. Nobody currently would be still be in existence with those changes made. The balefirer would probably have Grandfather Paradoxed himself.

    Both sides stopped using Balefire in the War of the Shadow after seeing the effects of some cities removed anywhere between a few hours and a few days back. Your plan would absolutely wreck shit. It would probably be even worse than grumpy Rand winning.

    Exactly.

    You are talking about destroying the basis for ~3500 years of history. Reality will tear itself apart trying to course correct for that shit.

    shryke on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Sure the pattern would unweave, but the prison would be sealed again :P

    Aether on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Guys when you balefire everyone explicitly remembers the timeline the way it went before you balefired, it doesn't change any memories at all. However things go differently as the actions themselves are removed. Rand didn't realize with the Darkhounds because he had just undone their actions, he clearly remembered them on his arm but turning back time was impossible so he brushed it off until Moraine told him.

    Z0re on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    That doesn't sound right. Asmodean didn't remember dying, but pieced it together from what people had said.

    I always figured that the original timeline felt like deja vu.

    Aether on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Aether wrote: »
    That doesn't sound right. Asmodean didn't remember dying, but pieced it together from what people had said.

    I always figured that the original timeline felt like deja vu.

    Thats because he got hit by a lightning bolt and died instantly, it didn't even register before he died and then when time got rebooted he was back. There was nothing too remember, he died too fast.

    Z0re on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'd really like to read TGS, but I probably haven't read these in nearly ten years, have no idea where they are (parents probably took 'em to the used book store for credit), and the box sets seem like not really a deal at all.

    Any idea where I could get my hands on them stupid-cheaply?

    Salvation122 on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So, I checked in the guide and you're right. Sucks to be me.

    I've just finished book six on my latest read through. Read TGS when it came out, but it had been a while since I read the rest of them.

    Man, Faile pisses me off.

    Aether on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'd really like to read TGS, but I probably haven't read these in nearly ten years, have no idea where they are (parents probably took 'em to the used book store for credit), and the box sets seem like not really a deal at all.

    Any idea where I could get my hands on them stupid-cheaply?

    I would expect used bookstores to have tons of the paperbacks for cheap, though you might want to wait until the series is actually finished if your going to reread everything.

    khain on
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Balefire doesn't destroy memories, just action, this has been well established numerous times.

    Moiraine wasn't talking about Mat sounding the horn in the future, she was weighing Mat's life versus the priority of getting the horn back.

    Lady Eri on
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'd really like to read TGS, but I probably haven't read these in nearly ten years, have no idea where they are (parents probably took 'em to the used book store for credit), and the box sets seem like not really a deal at all.

    Any idea where I could get my hands on them stupid-cheaply?

    I was able to get though it with a similar gap. Sanderson doesn't focus as much on the myriad minor characters, thank god. As long as you basically remember what the principals were up to, it isn't too bad. The book helps remind you as well.

    captaink on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Well, I don't remember really anything that happened in Knife of Dreams or Crossroads of Twilight. I mean, not a hell of a lot happened in those books, as I remember it, but still.

    Salvation122 on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Well, I don't remember really anything that happened in Knife of Dreams or Crossroads of Twilight. I mean, not a hell of a lot happened in those books, as I remember it, but still.

    Uh, Knife of Dreams was actually pretty huge in terms of stuff happening, plots being wrapped up etc. I actually think more things happen in it than in Path of Daggers-Crossroads.

    Z0re on
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Well, I don't remember really anything that happened in Knife of Dreams or Crossroads of Twilight. I mean, not a hell of a lot happened in those books, as I remember it, but still.

    You don't really have to, much. Sanderson does a much better job than Jordan ever did of dropping in reminders of what happened in the last book.

    captaink on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Asmodean:
    Makes sense to me for Slayer to have killed him. He seems like the "renegade hunter" for TDO - he went after Fain, after all. Asmodean recognized him though, so I guess this means Slayer must be pretty high up in the ranks.
    I can pretty much guarantee that Slayer did not kill Asmodean, simply because he fails the first test, and that is that he wasn't properly introduced until after Asmo's killing, and RJ said that we have all the info we need to deduce Asmo's killer. Since Slayer wasn't really introduced until the next book (or one after that, I forget), he can't be the killer.
    He was introduced a book before that actually.

    The larger problem is there's no evidence whatsoever point his way.

    I still say it was Graendal.

    Shit, you are right. The issue with Slayer is that Asmo has no idea what he looks like, or even possibly the fact that he exists. Hence, the "you?" part of his death line would make no sense.

    Ender on
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Just finished TGS. Brandon Sanderson has rescued the series. There were so many moments where you just go: yes, this is awesome.

    My particular favorite:
    Finally getting around to using the Oath Rod to root out the Black Ajah. When they first introduced the concept I was like man, just get everyone together and make everyone swear on it. But then nothing happened with it. In this book we get to see people using tools that they have in an intelligent manner. It's quite gratifying.

    Same goes for Egwene's teaching the novices to channel her enough power to gateway to the storeroom and grab a powerful angreal. That's using your noggin.

    RandomEngy on
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    They never knew you could reswear until someone tried it, so the idea was only passed up for a few weeks.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Asmodean:
    Makes sense to me for Slayer to have killed him. He seems like the "renegade hunter" for TDO - he went after Fain, after all. Asmodean recognized him though, so I guess this means Slayer must be pretty high up in the ranks.
    I can pretty much guarantee that Slayer did not kill Asmodean, simply because he fails the first test, and that is that he wasn't properly introduced until after Asmo's killing, and RJ said that we have all the info we need to deduce Asmo's killer. Since Slayer wasn't really introduced until the next book (or one after that, I forget), he can't be the killer.
    He was introduced a book before that actually.

    The larger problem is there's no evidence whatsoever point his way.

    I still say it was Graendal.

    Shit, you are right. The issue with Slayer is that Asmo has no idea what he looks like, or even possibly the fact that he exists. Hence, the "you?" part of his death line would make no sense.
    Actually considering Slayer has been around since long before the series and seems to be the "Go To" Assassin for the Shadow, it's reasonable to assume Asmodean would know him.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    They never knew you could reswear until someone tried it, so the idea was only passed up for a few weeks.

    Not to mention the people who knew were a small minority in a sea of people who could and would, potentially, murder them in the blink of an eye for even bringing the idea up.

    And beyond even that, many Aes Sedai wouldn't stand for it. It'd be the equivalent to arresting someone on no evidence to us.

    shryke on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Asmodean:
    Makes sense to me for Slayer to have killed him. He seems like the "renegade hunter" for TDO - he went after Fain, after all. Asmodean recognized him though, so I guess this means Slayer must be pretty high up in the ranks.
    I can pretty much guarantee that Slayer did not kill Asmodean, simply because he fails the first test, and that is that he wasn't properly introduced until after Asmo's killing, and RJ said that we have all the info we need to deduce Asmo's killer. Since Slayer wasn't really introduced until the next book (or one after that, I forget), he can't be the killer.
    He was introduced a book before that actually.

    The larger problem is there's no evidence whatsoever point his way.

    I still say it was Graendal.

    Shit, you are right. The issue with Slayer is that Asmo has no idea what he looks like, or even possibly the fact that he exists. Hence, the "you?" part of his death line would make no sense.
    Actually considering Slayer has been around since long before the series and seems to be the "Go To" Assassin for the Shadow, it's reasonable to assume Asmodean would know him.
    Actually, that's not quite true.

    Slayer is Luc and Isam. They are relatives of...damn, Rand's parents? Too many damn names. His uncles. Or an uncle and a half-stepbrother twice removed. I get confused.

    That said, the amalgam known as Slayer can't be much more than 20 years old, given the timelines. In addition, and I'll have to hunt this info down, Slayer isn't well-known among the Forsaken, as they have other concerns. It's like Shaidar Haran - he's around, but he's busy doing things you ain't in on.

    From what can be pulled from the books, it appears that Slayer only has one Forsaken patron. If Slayer were the "go-to" assassin for the dark side, he'd have a lot more people calling on him.

    Finally, even if Slayer were known enough to be used by him, Asmodean is not the hiring-assassins type. There is no reason to assume he even knows about Slayer, and even if he did, he wouldn't recognize the guy immediately on sight.

    Ender on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Asmodean:
    Makes sense to me for Slayer to have killed him. He seems like the "renegade hunter" for TDO - he went after Fain, after all. Asmodean recognized him though, so I guess this means Slayer must be pretty high up in the ranks.
    I can pretty much guarantee that Slayer did not kill Asmodean, simply because he fails the first test, and that is that he wasn't properly introduced until after Asmo's killing, and RJ said that we have all the info we need to deduce Asmo's killer. Since Slayer wasn't really introduced until the next book (or one after that, I forget), he can't be the killer.
    He was introduced a book before that actually.

    The larger problem is there's no evidence whatsoever point his way.

    I still say it was Graendal.

    Shit, you are right. The issue with Slayer is that Asmo has no idea what he looks like, or even possibly the fact that he exists. Hence, the "you?" part of his death line would make no sense.
    Actually considering Slayer has been around since long before the series and seems to be the "Go To" Assassin for the Shadow, it's reasonable to assume Asmodean would know him.
    Actually, that's not quite true.

    Slayer is Luc and Isam. They are relatives of...damn, Rand's parents? Too many damn names. His uncles. Or an uncle and a half-stepbrother twice removed. I get confused.

    That said, the amalgam known as Slayer can't be much more than 20 years old, given the timelines. In addition, and I'll have to hunt this info down, Slayer isn't well-known among the Forsaken, as they have other concerns. It's like Shaidar Haran - he's around, but he's busy doing things you ain't in on.

    From what can be pulled from the books, it appears that Slayer only has one Forsaken patron. If Slayer were the "go-to" assassin for the dark side, he'd have a lot more people calling on him.

    Finally, even if Slayer were known enough to be used by him, Asmodean is not the hiring-assassins type. There is no reason to assume he even knows about Slayer, and even if he did, he wouldn't recognize the guy immediately on sight.
    Slayer is the amalgamation of Lan's uncle (or was it cousin? I think it was cousin. The son of the uncle who betrayed Malkier. yeah) and Rand's uncle Luc.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • adejaanadejaan Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ender wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Asmodean:
    Makes sense to me for Slayer to have killed him. He seems like the "renegade hunter" for TDO - he went after Fain, after all. Asmodean recognized him though, so I guess this means Slayer must be pretty high up in the ranks.
    I can pretty much guarantee that Slayer did not kill Asmodean, simply because he fails the first test, and that is that he wasn't properly introduced until after Asmo's killing, and RJ said that we have all the info we need to deduce Asmo's killer. Since Slayer wasn't really introduced until the next book (or one after that, I forget), he can't be the killer.
    He was introduced a book before that actually.

    The larger problem is there's no evidence whatsoever point his way.

    I still say it was Graendal.

    Shit, you are right. The issue with Slayer is that Asmo has no idea what he looks like, or even possibly the fact that he exists. Hence, the "you?" part of his death line would make no sense.
    Actually considering Slayer has been around since long before the series and seems to be the "Go To" Assassin for the Shadow, it's reasonable to assume Asmodean would know him.
    Actually, that's not quite true.

    Slayer is Luc and Isam. They are relatives of...damn, Rand's parents? Too many damn names. His uncles. Or an uncle and a half-stepbrother twice removed. I get confused.

    That said, the amalgam known as Slayer can't be much more than 20 years old, given the timelines. In addition, and I'll have to hunt this info down, Slayer isn't well-known among the Forsaken, as they have other concerns. It's like Shaidar Haran - he's around, but he's busy doing things you ain't in on.

    From what can be pulled from the books, it appears that Slayer only has one Forsaken patron. If Slayer were the "go-to" assassin for the dark side, he'd have a lot more people calling on him.

    Finally, even if Slayer were known enough to be used by him, Asmodean is not the hiring-assassins type. There is no reason to assume he even knows about Slayer, and even if he did, he wouldn't recognize the guy immediately on sight.
    Slayer is the amalgamation of Lan's uncle (or was it cousin? I think it was cousin. The son of the uncle who betrayed Malkier. yeah) and Rand's uncle Luc.
    Isam is Lan's cousin, and Luc is Rand's uncle. This very conversation occurred earlier in the thread, but I'll reiterate that (IMO) Asmodean was killed by either Graendal or Slayer.

    adejaan on
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yep, that's how I always saw it.

    I've also thought that part of Slayer's stick might be:
    The ability to change his form in the real world, maybe one of those crazy see the face of your worst enemy sort of powers.

    Also I've always been under the impression that Asmodean was one of the first of the Forsaken released, so he might have run across a whole bunch of interesting characters before ending up where he did. Remember what his cover was?

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yep, that's how I always saw it.

    I've also thought that part of Slayer's stick might be:
    The ability to change his form in the real world, maybe one of those crazy see the face of your worst enemy sort of powers.

    Also I've always been under the impression that Asmodean was one of the first of the Forsaken released, so he might have run across a whole bunch of interesting characters before ending up where he did. Remember what his cover was?

    Nah, the first released were
    Aginor and Balthamel. (Ok, technically Ishamael). The rest were way deep down and didn't get out till after the end of TEOTW.

    And Slayer
    can change between Luc and Isam, but he isn't a shape-shifter or anything.

    shryke on
  • AetherAether Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Slayer.
    I was under the impression he looked like Luc in the real world, and like Isam in the World of Dreams.

    Aether on
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