Shin Megami Tensei (MegaTen) series

oddment

I've just recently purchased and begun playing Digital Devil Saga for the PS2, and am amazed I didn't know about this series sooner. DDS is amazing so far, I think I'm in love with it, and will most certainly be getting DDS2 when its released here next month.

What I'd like to know is what the other avaliable games are like (I've heard some cool stuff about the Persona games aswell... including the fact that Persona 2 was cut to hell for US release... and no Persona games were ever released in Europe), what you guys think of them all, and just for everyone to have a jolly good chat about the series as a whole.

Ooh, also... does anyone know about the new Devil Summoner game? Is it good, and does anyone have a clue if/when it's coming over to Europe? I've read end of Feb, but can find no official source to back this up! Ghostlight, publishers of DDS and Lucifer's Call over here, don't have the game on their release list... so I assume someone else must be publishing it here...


Anyway, let the discussion commence!

apotheos

I liked Nocturnes style, but it was pretty much impossible to play without a lot of time or a FAQ.

Whiniest Man On Earth

Devil Summoner is my #2 game of 2006, right behind Gears of War.

One of my favorite RPGs.

Drez

DDS/DDS2 is the best PS2 RPG, period. It's also one of my all-time favorites, and I usually value PC RPGs over Console RPGs, but I'd put DDS (vol. 1 in particular) in my "top ten RPGs of all time" list, which has stuff on it dating back to 1983.

Elendil

Nocturne is my favorite conventional (i.e., not Disgaea) RPG.

That said, I don't have it in me to ever play through it again. It is an exhausting, taxing game. Fucking brilliant, though.

Drez

Nocturne is a very hard, very unforgiving game.

DarkWarrior

I like them but I stopped playing DDS1 and DDS2 just short of the final boss because I was sick and tired of spending hours running around to level up just so I won't recieve such crippling damage every enemy turn. Nocturne in theme is better than DDS but again, same gameplay and so it got old fast.

Shibbi Bibbi

I got a brand spankin new copy of Nocturne for Christmas. I'm only 5 hours into it, but I'm enjoying it so far. The music is... interesting.

I became interested in the series when I picked up a used copy of Persona 2 last year. Then it was DDS 1, DDS 2, and then Devil Summoner. I enjoyed all of them.

Is the US version of Persona 1 any good? I've heard bad things about the translation and, uh, changing the look of some of the characters?

Elendil

DarkWarrior wrote:

I like them but I stopped playing DDS1 and DDS2 just short of the final boss because I was sick and tired of spending hours running around to level up just so I won't recieve such crippling damage every enemy turn. Nocturne in theme is better than DDS but again, same gameplay and so it got old fast.

Leveling up is the entirely wrong approach to playing these games. With the encounter rate the games have, you really shouldn't need to actively level (though I did succumb to the temptation to level Mantras in DDS). In fact, the gains from leveling were farily tiny, IIRC.

Blackjack

Shibbi Bibbi wrote:

Is the US version of Persona 1 any good? I've heard bad things about the translation and, uh, changing the look of some of the characters?

If you can deal with the horrible localization, and the mind-numbingly huge first person dungeons then...it's okay.

DarkWarrior

Elendil wrote:

DarkWarrior wrote:

I like them but I stopped playing DDS1 and DDS2 just short of the final boss because I was sick and tired of spending hours running around to level up just so I won't recieve such crippling damage every enemy turn. Nocturne in theme is better than DDS but again, same gameplay and so it got old fast.

Leveling up is the entirely wrong approach to playing these games. With the encounter rate the games have, you really shouldn't need to actively level (though I did succumb to the temptation to level Mantras in DDS). In fact, the gains from leveling were farily tiny, IIRC.

It can't be the wrong approach when not doing so results in consistent rape of your party. Then having to sit through chunks of trailers and such to get back to the point where you can load again.

Ginsane

Heeey. I just started another new game of Shin Megami2 last night.

Forever Zefiro

Nocturne, DDS, and DDS2 are full of huge confusing monotonous dungeons that if you get unlucky, one random battle can kill you, and there's a ton of random battles.

That said, I still like the DDS games; Nocturne not as much. I beat DDS1, but I can't bring myself to finish DDS2. I'm just sick of running around these empty dungeons that all the rooms look the same, battling monsters every 10 feet, hoping my attack won't miss, or that theirs won't hit me with a status effect, because then I'll probably die. But really, the luck part of battles doesn't bother me as much, I just wish there were a lot fewer random battles. It gets annoying when you run down a corridor to see what you can find, and it turns out it's just an empty room so you have to run back, and you get attacked five times each way.

I have hope for Devil Summoner, but I haven't had a chance to get too far into it. I'm not sure if I'm going to like the battle system.

Zephyr_Fate

DDS2's story alone is worth slogging through the dungeons.

cj iwakura

Blackjack wrote:

Shibbi Bibbi wrote:

Is the US version of Persona 1 any good? I've heard bad things about the translation and, uh, changing the look of some of the characters?

If you can deal with the horrible localization, and the mind-numbingly huge first person dungeons then...it's okay.

It's a good introduction if nothing else(it was mine), and I didn't notice the glaring localization issues back then.

Atlus made up for it doublefold when they translated Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, though. That game got a great localization(far as I know, at least).

There's also two obscure GBA games called DemiKids(which actually have the SMT banner on it if you look close enough) that really got me hooked on the series. By the time I was done with them, Nocturne became my most anticipated game since, like, ever.

The DemiKids games are a lot less serious, but they're still far from easy and have a good story.
Even an E rated SMT game has death and despair. And Lucifer as a playable character.

I can't wait to see what Atlus USA does to Persona 3. I just hope they have their DDS team in charge of the voice acting(:^:) and not the Magna Carta team(the horror, the horror).

Elendil

DarkWarrior wrote:

Elendil wrote:

DarkWarrior wrote:

I like them but I stopped playing DDS1 and DDS2 just short of the final boss because I was sick and tired of spending hours running around to level up just so I won't recieve such crippling damage every enemy turn. Nocturne in theme is better than DDS but again, same gameplay and so it got old fast.

Leveling up is the entirely wrong approach to playing these games. With the encounter rate the games have, you really shouldn't need to actively level (though I did succumb to the temptation to level Mantras in DDS). In fact, the gains from leveling were farily tiny, IIRC.

It can't be the wrong approach when not doing so results in consistent rape of your party. Then having to sit through chunks of trailers and such to get back to the point where you can load again.

It's not about taking hits, it's about avoiding them. There's going to be some nasty trial and error at first, but once you pick up on what certain enemies tend to do, you can counter it and turn it against them. It's the press turn system; if one of their attacks misses or is blocked, not only does that action fail, but they lose another. Use defensive spells whenever possible. Also, instant death spells actually work. Use them. The nice thing about DDS compared to Nocturne is that it's fairly easy to alter your characters to deal with prevailing trends.

DarkWarrior

Death spells work on Bosses? Most times I bothered to waste a turn trying them it was negated.

cj iwakura

Elendil wrote:

DarkWarrior wrote:

Elendil wrote:

DarkWarrior wrote:

I like them but I stopped playing DDS1 and DDS2 just short of the final boss because I was sick and tired of spending hours running around to level up just so I won't recieve such crippling damage every enemy turn. Nocturne in theme is better than DDS but again, same gameplay and so it got old fast.

Leveling up is the entirely wrong approach to playing these games. With the encounter rate the games have, you really shouldn't need to actively level (though I did succumb to the temptation to level Mantras in DDS). In fact, the gains from leveling were farily tiny, IIRC.

It can't be the wrong approach when not doing so results in consistent rape of your party. Then having to sit through chunks of trailers and such to get back to the point where you can load again.

It's not about taking hits, it's about avoiding them. There's going to be some nasty trial and error at first, but once you pick up on what certain enemies tend to do, you can counter it and turn it against them. It's the press turn system; if one of their attacks misses or is blocked, not only does that action fail, but they lose another. Use defensive spells whenever possible. Also, instant death spells actually work. Use them. The nice thing about DDS compared to Nocturne is that it's fairly easy to alter your characters to deal with prevailing trends.

Yeah, Nocturne is way too dependant on having the right demons with the right abilities at the right time. It's still doable, but it takes a lot of time.

In Devil Summoner, Raidou's basically a one man army. All you really need demons for are healing and elementals. I can kill most of the bosses without much trouble. I think the only one I actually died from was Rasputin. The final boss was a cinch. (Lengthy, though.)

One thing about Nocturne, DDS, and Persona: they always make boss battles menacing. Especially Nocturne.

The Fiends creep me out.

And most bosses don't just negate death magic, they negate elementals.

Shoot, if you try to make yourself immune to anything when fighting DDS1's hidden boss, he'll just straight up destroy you.

Elendil

DarkWarrior wrote:

Death spells work on Bosses? Most times I bothered to waste a turn trying them it was negated.

Not on bosses no, but on mobs? Hell yeah. Death spells were my bread and butter through Nocturne. With bosses, I like to take a dry run to find out what he uses, what he's weak to, then come back and beat his ass.

Preparation is everything. Play like Batman.

DarkWarrior

I think I stopped with DDS2 actually when I levelled up a good chunk and was kicking ass then was insta-killed by modu or hwatever its called 3 times in a row by fecking regular enemies.

Elendil

cj iwakura wrote:

when fighting DDS1's hidden boss, he'll just straight up destroy you.

Fixed.

DarkWarrior

Oh, why does god hate the world so much? Regardless of universe.

templewulf

I aboslutely loved Nocturne: Maniacs. What's weird is that I absolutely hated going through the dungeons. They all look the same, and the "puzzles" made barely any sense at all.

But oh how I loved the battles. I got soft with Final Fantasies, where random battles only served to eat through your potions.

It also doesn't hurt that every monster in the game is a great character with a lot of personality.

Final party? the main character, The Harlot, Beelzebub, and Metatron. Even then, I still switched out characters when I needed a specific resistance.

EDIT:
The post above reminds me why I love MegaTen so much. Any game where YHWH is the ultimate antagonist is an A++ in my book.

Elendil

templewulf wrote:

I aboslutely loved Nocturne: Maniacs. What's weird is that I absolutely hated going through the dungeons. They all look the same, and the "puzzles" made barely any sense at all.

But oh how I loved the battles. I got soft with Final Fantasies, where random battles only served to eat through your potions.

It also doesn't hurt that every monster in the game is a great character with a lot of personality.

Final party? the main character, The Harlot, Beelzebub, and Metatron. Even then, I still switched out characters when I needed a specific resistance.

I used the main, Daisoujou and the Red and White Riders. Daisoujou was amazing because he accidently learned Fog Breath. He never left my party after that.

apotheos

I gave up on Nocturne when I had all the wrong demons to kill some boss or another.

I loved its style, though.

Gilder

Daisoujou was my best friend in Nocturne. I don't even know how I played the game without him. Once he joined the team, he never left.

There was only one boss in Nocturne that sucked absolute ass. That would be the representative of Musubi. I can't remember the name. Oh man did he suck though. I'm scared of playing through again because he is just that annoying. There was also another boss that had the chance of just constantly increasing his turns and magic spelling you to death but at least he didn't take 70 turns to kill.

Drez

Elendil wrote:

cj iwakura wrote:

when fighting DDS1's hidden boss, he'll just straight up destroy you.

Fixed.

I eked out a victory against him. Just barely though.

oddment

So, does anyone know when the new Devil Summoner game is being released in the UK? (excuse the blatant bumping...)

cj iwakura

oddment wrote:

So, does anyone know when the new Devil Summoner game is being released in the UK? (excuse the blatant bumping...)

I'll take a shot in the dark and say Ghostlight is your only chance. I don't know if they have exclusives on the SMT games over there or not, but it seems like it.

Try emailing them maybe?

Pb

The most powerful random battle demon in Nocturne was probably Trumpeter. I suppose there are some that are better if you have recovery skills, but Trumpeter is 1 hit, 1 kill, 1 mp.

cj iwakura

Pb wrote:

The most powerful random battle demon in Nocturne was probably Trumpeter. I suppose there are some that are better if you have recovery skills, but Trumpeter is 1 hit, 1 kill, 1 mp.

Isn't Trumpeter one of the Fiends? Doesn't that mean he can only be recruited through fusion?

Pb

cj iwakura wrote:

Pb wrote:

The most powerful random battle demon in Nocturne was probably Trumpeter. I suppose there are some that are better if you have recovery skills, but Trumpeter is 1 hit, 1 kill, 1 mp.

Isn't Trumpeter one of the Fiends? Doesn't that mean he can only be recruited through fusion?

Yes, and he's sort of a pain to get too. If you want to stick to just invite demons, the most powerful is Throne then, and you have to level the crap out of him to get his full potential.

AJR

I'll have to get back to Nocturne at some stage. It's an awesome game, I just got tired of the constant dungeons. I'm thinking of giving DDS1 and 2 a shot too, they both sound like they'd be a blast to play.

cj iwakura

Start with DDS. You'll be saving yourself a lot of stress. DDS 1&2 combined can be finished quicker than Nocturne.

Nocturne's an amazing game, but it's an endurance trial.

AJR

Well, I don't think DDS2 will be released here until Febuary, so I think I'll be playing the first DDS regardless. Not including the challenges from random battles/bosses, how hard are the dungeons in DDS?

Zephyr_Fate

From easy, to 2-hours-long.

Daisuke Spoon

I love the Shin Megami Tensei Series.

I played Nocturne and it was a blast. I never did beat it, I got stuck at some dungeon and gave up on it. I'll have to pick it up and start again.

I just finished beating DDS1 and am starting up on DDS2. Both games are awesome. I'm thinking about getting Devil Summoner pretty soon.

Also, isn't there a Shin Megami Tensei game coming out for the PSP? I can't remember it's name but it looked interesting.

The only thing that kind of bothered me about the series is that they used almost the exact same monsters for every game, but they all looked so cool.

cj iwakura

Daisuke Spoon wrote:

Also, isn't there a Shin Megami Tensei game coming out for the PSP? I can't remember it's name but it looked interesting.

Sort of. In Japan, there's more SMT than you can shake a Jack Frost at.

We're getting Jewel Summoner: Monster Kingdom in two months, which was made by the creator of SMT. It's not SMT, but it looks real close, and I'm sure it's good.

AJR wrote:

Well, I don't think DDS2 will be released here until Febuary, so I think I'll be playing the first DDS regardless. Not including the challenges from random battles/bosses, how hard are the dungeons in DDS?

Lots of random battles, but everything's auto-mapped, so if you're patient, nothing's impossible. The final map is a pain in the neck though. It's like an hour between every save point.

DDS2's final dungeon is a lot easier.

The optional boss... run.

Drez

AJR wrote:

Well, I don't think DDS2 will be released here until Febuary, so I think I'll be playing the first DDS regardless. Not including the challenges from random battles/bosses, how hard are the dungeons in DDS?

Build up the right mantras in your first playthrough of DDS1 - Null All, Auto Soma, Mutual Karma, and Ragnarok or Sanctuary (or whatever the endgame all-target Almighty spell is, though I prefer Ragnarok because it has a quicker animation and is just as damaging if not more so than Sanctuary, plus it is also Almighty-based though I think the damage amount is calculated as a Physical attack, it can't be nullified except by the two or three enemies in the game that null Almighty attacks - and I think they only appear in the last dungeon) are the four that I found most useful.

Do that in your FIRST playthrough.

Win.

Play the game again. If you have those four mantras, you should be able to breeze through the entire game. Once you get to the end you'll need to powerlevel a bit, but truthfully, you don't need to be level 99 to defeat the special super secret boss.

So, if you do all this soon, you should be able to get a quick second playthrough in before February. My first playthrough of DDS took about 60-70 hours and my second took less than 20, including the optional boss.

Let me tell you, Null All and Auto Soma and Ragnarok+auto-attack make 90% of the game ridiculously easy. It's actually cute in a way.

Pb

Ragnarok is also excellent because of the included defense lowering effect. You'll often waste an bosses turn as they'll go to Dekunda it.

smeej

Odds are, if you are a human being, you will do very poorly on your first Nocturne playthrough. Upon meeting the Matador I said something along the lines of, "This game is impossible" and didn't play again for 3 months. You just need to be patient, learn enemy weaknessess and try to limit your own. You are likely to never have a perfect team of 4 unless you dedicate an obscene amount of time into the cathedral, so you are better off having various demons and assigning them appropriate roles.

I might be too forgiving on the game because I like the plot and the concept of Reason a lot. The Conception is pretty much my favorite scene in a video game, also.