Is Honesty REALLY the Best Policy?

naporeon

OK. Now let me preface this question by saying that I generally have a policy of complete, brutal, often-unnecessary honesty with people, especially girlfriends (of both the casual and serious species). When someone asks me, "Do you think I'm stupid?" or "Does this make my ass look big?", I always answer honestly. It's just my thing, I don't do it because I believe there's a moral imperative to do so, and while it might cause some damage on occasion, in my experience, people actually like the fact that they can take anything that comes out of my mouth 100% seriously. But a lot of my real-life friends also think of me as a sort of "phantom," since I virtually never talk about myself...I say this by way of saying that my "100% honesty" policy is rarely--if ever--really directed at myself. Meaning, I talk about myself so little with real-life friends that they would be hard-pressed to collectively assemble more than a paragraph or two of real information about me.

So my problem is this: I met a charming young lady during the holiday "party season." We've been hanging out a lot since we met, and things look to be heading in a pretty serious direction. The snag is that last night, she asked for The Number. I'm not talking about phone number, of course. At first, I tried the "look at the monkey" element of the Chewbacca defense. She played along at first, but later, she came right back to it, and demonstrated her desire for an answer by giving me Her Number. This time, I simply said that I didn't really think it mattered, that there is no reason to ask for that sort of information, and that there's no "correct" answer; too low a number, and I'm an inexperienced loser, too high, and I'm a manwhore or a player. She knows I'm clean, so I fail to see what the concern can be. Well, she wasn't very happy with my reason, and I ended up going back to my place after a sort of mini-argument. You know, the sort you generally get when someone is hurt, but doesn't want to show that they're hurt, so they kind of underplay the whole thing...and it gestates, and later blossoms into a Very Serious Argument indeed.

At any rate, I need to know if I should be honest with her. I have an almost visceral aversion to lying, but like I said, I don't see why it would matter so much. If she's so keen for an answer, the answer might matter to her. Not necessarily, mind, but it might. Input?

tl;dr "Look at the monkey" didn't work...should I be honest, or lie? Or is it not worth bothering at this point?

Szechuanosaurus

Well, in absolute terms honesty is only the best policy if it gets you what you want, unless you have moral imperatives for being faultlessly honest.

In this specific instance, it kind of depends on why she asked you, which we may never determine conclusively. Have you slept with her yet?

Slapnuts

If honesty is your policy then why live with that bit of information in secret?

Lay it on her. If she can't handle it, it was never meant to be.

naporeon

She gave an equally evasive answer when I asked why (or if) it mattered, more or less, "If it's not important, why don't you just tell me?" So really, I have no clue why she asked. Personally speaking, I never ask, and I could care less how many guys a woman has been with, as long as she's A) clean, and not seeking affirmation through the wrong channels...so I really don't know what motivation someone would have for asking.

And yes, we've slept together.

fforde

If you feel like the relationship has any sort of legs you ought to just tell her. If you don't tell her it will lurk in the back of her mind indefinitely (because it obviously seems important to her). If she is really into you even if "your number" is shocking she will get over it.

You first mistake was probably being so evasive though. In the future now she will probably wonder what other topics of conversation you are trying to avoid.

naporeon

There are many things I don't talk about. I am not a terribly open person with many aspects of my life. I don't believe that this constitutes evasiveness, and I have not historically had a problem with people feeling that it does. In short, I rarely have problems with girlfriends thinking that I am avoiding entire genera of topics.

That said though, Fforde, I DO think that this relationship might "have legs." And I know that I have to give her an answer. My real question is whether I should go against my pattern/preference and fudge the number a little.

fforde

naporeon wrote:

There are many things I don't talk about. I am not a terribly open person with many aspects of my life. I don't believe that this constitutes evasiveness, and I have not historically had a problem with people feeling that it does. In short, I rarely have problems with girlfriends thinking that I am avoiding entire genera of topics.

That said though, Fforde, I DO think that this relationship might "have legs." And I know that I have to give her an answer. My real question is whether I should go against my pattern/preference and fudge the number a little.

I guess it just comes down to what you think her reaction will be. Do you think she will flip out about your number?

You may kind of be in a lose-lose situation. If you are honest, she flips out and leaves you. If you lie she may find out the truth later, and worse, find out you lied to her. If you think you can tell the truth and keep the relationship together, then I'd be totally honest with her. I guess that's hard to predict though not knowing her motivation behind asking.

Is it possible someone told her you were a player and she was trying to verify that? If so your best bet may be to be honest and tell her if you had anything to hide you wouldn't have told her, that it is what it is, and that you were just worried how she might react. "You really do mean the world to me!" That kind of stuff.

DeVryGuy

Unless your number is well above 50 (or 0, but for a different reason), I don't think anyone is going to get all that freaked out. She's just curious, I don't see any real harm in telling her.

However not telling her just gets her to imagine all the reasons you won't tell her, which will likely be far worse than the reality.

Halfmex

Short answer: Is honesty really the best policy? In all situations? No. In most situations? Probably not.

In this situation? Yes.


Look, no matter what you say, as you pointed out, it can be construed badly. Too low, you're a pathetic loser, too high, you're a player. Either way, she asked for the information, so she should be prepared to deal with whatever consequences come from you telling her honestly what that number is. Does it matter? To her, it obviously does. In the grand scheme of things? Probably not, but then anything is only as important as someone makes it out to be. "Perception is 100% of reality" and all that.

Just tell her and be honest. If she can deal, great. If she makes a big deal about it either way, I'd say it's time to cut the ties and go your separate ways.

Callius

I dunno, I don't see what the big deal is.

She's curious about you and your hisotry. If she cares for you as an individual it won't affect how she feels about you.

Hiding it is only going to make her curious and somewhat cautious. "WHY won't he tell me?" will be in the back of her mind.

naporeon

fforde wrote:

Is it possible someone told her you were a player and she was trying to verify that? If so your best bet may be to be honest and tell her if you had anything to hide you wouldn't have told her, that it is what it is, and that you were just worried how she might react. "You really do mean the world to me!" That kind of stuff.

Wow. I really hadn't considered this, but I think that this might be it exactly. I normally don't "shit where I eat," meaning that I usually don't date (casually OR seriously) people who are part of the large circle of friends that I generally hang out with...but this girl IS part of that group. I mean, I've seen her around, and I know that we have mutual acquaintances, but this holiday season is pretty much the first time we've been around each other directly.

The problem is that pure honesty would probably confirm--at least in her mind--any crap she's heard, even though I don't feel it does.

t DeVryGuy I just sent you a PM.

MichaelLC

Just tell her.

If she doesn't like it, it's her own fault for asking.

Besides, there's always the "Rule of 3."

fforde

naporeon wrote:

fforde wrote:

Is it possible someone told her you were a player and she was trying to verify that? If so your best bet may be to be honest and tell her if you had anything to hide you wouldn't have told her, that it is what it is, and that you were just worried how she might react. "You really do mean the world to me!" That kind of stuff.

Wow. I really hadn't considered this, but I think that this might be it exactly. I normally don't "shit where I eat," meaning that I usually don't date (casually OR seriously) people who are part of the large circle of friends that I generally hang out with...but this girl IS part of that group. I mean, I've seen her around, and I know that we have mutual acquaintances, but this holiday season is pretty much the first time we've been around each other directly.

The problem is that pure honesty would probably confirm--at least in her mind--any crap she's heard, even though I don't feel it does.

t DeVryGuy I just sent you a PM.

If you are going to be together she has to accept who you are. If she cant accept that you slept with x number of women, maybe that is an indication of a greater incompatibility. I agree with Halfmex, I would just tell her. If she can't deal, might as well part ways because there probably would be something else down the line she'd take issue with anyway.

Callius

Seriously, man, how big is your number that you're worried it will scare her?

naporeon

Callius wrote:

Seriously, man, how big is your number that you're worried it will scare her?

High enough that I would consider dropping it here to be distracting and counterproductive.

CloudOnMyTongue

Alright, so here's my chick two cents. Take it or leave it. It has been my personal experience that the NUMBER question harbors more complications than any of its kind. Despite what the number might be, there is a negative trail not far behind. What you have or haven't done in the past is just that: THE PAST. There is nothing that the knowledge of how many women you've been with will impact in a positive way. If that knowledge has no use to her (which it certainly doesn't) then there is no constructive reason for her to know. It is yet another label for you, and perhaps an festering spot of jealousy for her. What you have done in the past means positively nothing now. If she's too engaged in knowing that past, her dwelling poses a position for trouble in the future.

Callius

CloudOnMyTongue wrote:

Alright, so here's my chick two cents. Take it or leave it. It has been my personal experience that the NUMBER question harbors more complications than any of its kind. Despite what the number might be, there is a negative trail not far behind. What you have or haven't done in the past is just that: THE PAST. There is nothing that the knowledge of how many women you've been with will impact in a positive way. If that knowledge has no use to her (which it certainly doesn't) then there is no constructive reason for her to know. It is yet another label for you, and perhaps an festering spot of jealousy for her. What you have done in the past means positively nothing now. If she's too engaged in knowing that past, her dwelling poses a position for trouble in the future.

The problem is that she has already asked. This means that if he deftly evades the issue she will feel frustrated and somewhat "betrayed."

Needless to say, the trust will suffer for it.

naporeon

CloudOnMyTongue wrote:

What you have or haven't done in the past is just that: THE PAST. There is nothing that the knowledge of how many women you've been with will impact in a positive way. If that knowledge has no use to her (which it certainly doesn't) then there is no constructive reason for her to know. It is yet another label for you, and perhaps an festering spot of jealousy for her. What you have done in the past means positively nothing now.

Those are my thoughts exactly, and I more or less told her so.

The problem is that I now have no way of knowing if it really meant that much to her in the first place. We watched Clerks 2, and got to talking about the first Clerks, and...well, you can see where it came from. She didn't seem terribly serious when she asked, and the question grew more or less organically out of our conversation. I suspect that my refusal to give even an indirect answer MADE the answer important to her.

Szechuanosaurus

Like you say, you've probably read too much into the question and now it's become something bigger than she originally intended it to be.

I say tell her the truth now. It can only really portray you in a good light. You've slept with a lot of women but you were modest, even embarrassed, about it so you aren't a total dick about sex.

CloudOnMyTongue

Callius wrote:

CloudOnMyTongue wrote:

Alright, so here's my chick two cents. Take it or leave it. It has been my personal experience that the NUMBER question harbors more complications than any of its kind. Despite what the number might be, there is a negative trail not far behind. What you have or haven't done in the past is just that: THE PAST. There is nothing that the knowledge of how many women you've been with will impact in a positive way. If that knowledge has no use to her (which it certainly doesn't) then there is no constructive reason for her to know. It is yet another label for you, and perhaps an festering spot of jealousy for her. What you have done in the past means positively nothing now. If she's too engaged in knowing that past, her dwelling poses a position for trouble in the future.

The problem is that she has already asked. This means that if he deftly evades the issue she will feel frustrated and somewhat "betrayed."

Needless to say, the trust will suffer for it.

I disagree. I don't feel like this has anything to do with trust. If it were a trust issue, there would have to be some concern/chance about his past repeating itself...i.e. dating past girlfriends. If she can't understand how unproductive it is to dwell on the past and how stupidly unimportant it is to know that number, there might be room for trouble later on.

Thanatos

I think it's interesting that you're willing to tell other people they're stupid in the name of brutal honesty, but not willing to tell the woman you're dating something about yourself.

Just tell her. Either she'll get over it, or she won't. If the relationship has legs, she'll get over it. If it doesn't she won't.

And people who are honest all the time are generally, in my experience, complete douchebags, who use honesty as an excuse for being assholes.

naporeon

Thanatos wrote:

I think it's interesting that you're willing to tell other people they're stupid in the name of brutal honesty, but not willing to tell the woman you're dating something about yourself.

Just tell her. Either she'll get over it, or she won't. If the relationship has legs, she'll get over it. If it doesn't she won't.

And people who are honest all the time are generally, in my experience, complete douchebags, who use honesty as an excuse for being assholes.

Like I said, I don't normally talk about myself, regardless of how I feel about whatever topic is germane to the occasion. For that matter, I don't bring up other people's faults unbidden; I just answer truthfully. It doesn't really have anything to do with wanting to evade certain topics...it has more to do with wanting to evade me as a topic in general.

And I pretty much agree with your last paragraph. I am a complete douchebag, although I don't think it has all that much to do with my stance on honesty, and I certainly don't use anything of that nature as an excuse to be abrasive. I should point out, though, that I am not honest because I naively believe it's virtuous; I am honest because I enjoy it, because I was *raised to be, and frankly, after doing it for my entire adult life, it's become habitual.

*One of the first things I can remember my Mom telling me as a child was, "Whenver someone tells you that they think they're stupid/ugly/boring/etc., agree with them if you think it's true. They are just looking for attention, not honesty, so don't reward their behavior."

CloudOnMyTongue

While my stance about the number remains the same, I am increasingly concerned at your inability/unwillingness to share yourself with someone. Regardless of the issue at hand, your struggle with self disclosure is sounding more like what could become the ultimate obstacle in any relationship. If someone (friend, girlfriend, family, whatever) is investing a lot of time/emotion into you, getting no payback is certainly grounds for just walking away. Regardless of what you don't/won't tell her, continually building a bridge between the two of you is destined to leave you lonely. I'm not saying this is a reason to up and tell her every single crazy event in your life, but sooner or later, you're going to have to trust that someone will like/love you for you...all of you.

Lindsay Lohan

Ok, so you think the number is high enough that we'll be stunned. The better question isn't the total number, but how bad is the number over the past year or so? Is it to the point that you can say "I've changed, in my past it's been xxx, but recently I've been better" or have you really slept around alot this year?

I personally think someone has the right to know this about a potential mate. It does say something about someone's personality, their ability to be in long term relationships and it can potentially be a health risk as well. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone that has bounced from bed to bed to bed recently - but if it was in their past (and not like "last month" past) I'd look beyond it. And I'm a guy, I'd argue women are more sensitive about it than I would be.

TroubledTom

If I were you I would inflate the number, and act sensitive and vulnerable when you tell her. You're going to need a pretty good excuse to consider it important enough to hold back from her if this little argument is enough to cool the possible relationship.

CloudOnMyTongue

Herby wrote:

Ok, so you think the number is high enough that we'll be stunned. The better question isn't the total number, but how bad is the number over the past year or so? Is it to the point that you can say "I've changed, in my past it's been xxx, but recently I've been better" or have you really slept around alot this year?

I personally think someone has the right to know this about a potential mate. It does say something about someone's personality, their ability to be in long term relationships and it can potentially be a health risk as well. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone that has bounced from bed to bed to bed recently - but if it was in their past (and not like "last month" past) I'd look beyond it. And I'm a guy, I'd argue women are more sensitive about it than I would be.

Unfortunately, part of your second paragraph only definitely exists in the hypothetical. I certainly agree that knowing that your partner is clean and healthy is important, but telling someone how many people really holds only so much credibility. I'd like to believe that men I've been with have been truthfull when they disclosed their number, but their word is not exactly evidence. Someone can lie about their sexual past either to diminish or to enhance it. Because we don't know for sure their sincerity, "knowing" that number amounts to very little.

naporeon

CloudOnMyTongue wrote:

While my stance about the number remains the same, I am increasingly concerned at your inability/unwillingness to share yourself with someone. Regardless of the issue at hand, your struggle with self disclosure is sounding more like what could become the ultimate obstacle in any relationship. If someone (friend, girlfriend, family, whatever) is investing a lot of time/emotion into you, getting no payback is certainly grounds for just walking away. Regardless of what you don't/won't tell her, continually building a bridge between the two of you is destined to leave you lonely. I'm not saying this is a reason to up and tell her every single crazy event in your life, but sooner or later, you're going to have to trust that someone will like/love you for you...all of you.

That is a fair concern, Cloud. As far as I can discern consciously (and I am very aware that we are often not the best judges of ourselves), my private nature has more to do with discretion and wanting to be known for my actions rather than my words, more than anything else. I feel like I've got a lot going for me, and despite being somewhat of an asshat, I don't fear that people who get to know me will flee in terror. And I've never really had any problems with women who found me emotionally unavailable; a few here and there, yes, but in the main, I don't think it's an issue. In other words, I think it might be a mistake to equate reticence with a fear of acceptance.

Herby wrote:

Ok, so you think the number is high enough that we'll be stunned. The better question isn't the total number, but how bad is the number over the past year or so? Is it to the point that you can say "I've changed, in my past it's been xxx, but recently I've been better" or have you really slept around alot this year?

I personally think someone has the right to know this about a potential mate. It does say something about someone's personality, their ability to be in long term relationships and it can potentially be a health risk as well. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone that has bounced from bed to bed to bed recently - but if it was in their past (and not like "last month" past) I'd look beyond it. And I'm a guy, I'd argue women are more sensitive about it than I would be.

My personality, Herby, is that I like to enjoy life. To trot out a rather terrible bromide, I am one of those "life isn't a dress rehearsal" folks. What I'm concerned about is that someone might construe that as an inability to "settle down" or worse, be safe. And I am thoroughly committed to both.

As an adult, I have never cheated on a partner. I have been in a couple long-term relationships that were "open," but I am very much content to be a one-woman man. If she genuinely feels she needs to know the number, and isn't asking simply because I was initially evasive, then I worry about her motivation. She knows from reputation that I am honest, and I'm sure she knows or trusts that I am a faithful partner in my long-term relationships. So I fail to see the import of the answer to her.

And to flip things around a bit, I really wouldn't want to be with someone who's uptight about how many partners I've had. I believe that to be a character flaw, while I believe managed hedonism to simply be a character trait.

For the record, though, I've been more active since May 2006 than I have been at pretty much any other point in my life.

Lindsay Lohan

I'm editing my post

naporeon

TroubledTom wrote:

If I were you I would inflate the number, and act sensitive and vulnerable when you tell her. You're going to need a pretty good excuse to consider it important enough to hold back from her if this little argument is enough to cool the possible relationship.

Altering the number upwards is not advisable.

The rest of your idea might have merit, but if I'm going to lie at all, I'd rather just guess what an acceptable number would be, tell her that, and then be more or less honest, telling her that my objection to being open with her was essentially one of principle.

CloudOnMyTongue

That is a fair concern, Cloud. As far as I can discern consciously (and I am very aware that we are often not the best judges of ourselves), my private nature has more to do with discretion and wanting to be known for my actions rather than my words, more than anything else. I feel like I've got a lot going for me, and despite being somewhat of an asshat, I don't fear that people who get to know me will flee in terror. And I've never really had any problems with women who found me emotionally unavailable; a few here and there, yes, but in the main, I don't think it's an issue. In other words, I think it might be a mistake to equate reticence with a fear of acceptance.

My apologies for the perceived connection. I didn't mean to imply the fear of acceptance. My concern was mostly with the long term ramifications of a lack of self-disclosure in a relationship. Again, I'm not all about telling someone every possible moment in your life, but there is that need from a partner to feel connected, often times by being trusted with personal information.

Yar

"Including you? Just one. I was waiting for someone I really cared about."

naporeon

t Cloud: No need to apologize. I just wanted to be clear about my behavior and motivations. I wasn't offended by anything you implied.

t Yar: :shock: Perfect.

Lindsay Lohan

Yar wrote:

"Including you? Just one. I was waiting for someone I really cared about."

I can't imagine her accepting that.

naporeon - you'd know this best - do you think she's really asking just out of curiousity or do you think fundamentally she'll have a problem with the answer? I can understand being frustrated with her if you think she just wants to know and is being nosey. However, if you think she'd have an major issue with your ideals towards sex then I think it's more than just a number you're hiding from her, and that is a bigger issue.

naporeon

Herby wrote:

Yar wrote:

"Including you? Just one. I was waiting for someone I really cared about."

I can't imagine her accepting that.

naporeon - you'd know this best - do you think she's really asking just out of curiousity or do you think fundamentally she'll have a problem with the answer? I can understand being frustrated with her if you think she just wants to know and is being nosey. However, if you think she'd have an major issue with your ideals towards sex then I think it's more than just a number you're hiding from her, and that is a bigger issue.

Oh, I think that Yar was just joking, Herby. At least, I hope he was.

As for her motivation for asking, I think that initially, it was just kind of jokey. Like I said, it grew out of watching Clerks 2 and discussing Clerks 1. But as for her motivation now? It's hard to say if it's just because I was being evasive, or if my evasiveness also happened to make her worried.

And I don't think she'd have a problem with my ideals toward sex; I think that there's a chance that she might make the wrong assumption about my ideals, however.

Thanatos

So, why haven't you, Captain Honesty, thought about sitting down and telling her how you honestly feel about sex before giving her the number?

naporeon

Thanatos wrote:

So, why haven't you, Captain Honesty, thought about sitting down and telling her how you honestly feel about sex before giving her the number?

This is a great point, Thanatos.

As I said before, I'm generally pretty reticent when it comes to me-as-topic, but obviously, if I want to pursue a relationship with her, I should trust her to trust me. Your plan actually sounds pretty good.

EDIT: Although, on further consideration, I should answer your question directly. I didn't think of your suggestion on my own because I generally see an answer that needs to be couched in an explanation as 95% bullshit. People who do that are almost always hiding something.

Æthelred

So who else took 2/3 of the first page to figure out what this 'number' meant? ..Anyone?

Raggaholic

In this particular case, I wouldn't tell. I personally don't tell anyone I date my number. Has it been made a big deal in this case? Yes. It shouldn't have been, but it has been. If I were you, I would keep doing the "look at the monkey" thing, or I would just lie and say five.

In general, honesty is not the best policy. It's one of those things that people say because it sounds good, but just isn't realistic.

For instance, I had a girlfriend move halfway around the country after I was gone for six months to be with me. I introduced her to a female friend who I had buddied up with (everything above board). The friend was gorgeous. The two of us would hang out, go to dinner, etc all while the girl was on "her" side of the country. Nothing physical ever happened.

My girlfriend didn't like her because she saw her as a threat. Once, after having a discussion about being open and honest and thinking through things like adults, she asked me if I wanted to sleep with the friend. I told her I thought about it. I NEVER lived that down, and there is no one that I've talked to who told me I should have told her the truth (which is what I did).

So no, it's not really the best policy.

LRG

I only skimmed the thread, but it sounded like you could have joked out of it pretty easily. Something along the lines of "I lost count in the 80s" seemed like it woulda worked. It may be too late for that now, though.

Rankenphile

"It doesn't matter. I'm with you, and only want you, and you know I'm clean, if that is your concern. I'm not comfortable discussing this sort of thing, with you or with anyone. It isn't a matter of not wanting to share with you, it is a matter of my own comfort, of knowing how information like this can change things, and I care too much about you to let what we have going right now be screwed up by something as stupid and petty as a number.

I'm with you, and that's all I care about. It should be good enough for you, too."

Spaz

Æthelred wrote:

So who else took 2/3 of the first page to figure out what this 'number' meant? ..Anyone?

Yeah, I did too. I still don't know what the fuck the monkey shit means.

I don't really see why this is such a big problem unless, like someone else said, it's over 50 or 0. Just be honest, especially if you want the relationship. Plus, if you're worried about it getting out or whatever, you can always ask her to keep it quiet. I see no reason why she'd tell anyone if you made a big point to keep it down.