I didn't cave in but honestly I'm in a wreck and I don't know how long I can do it. I miss everything about him very much. I'm cutting off all contact with him and I really hope I can keep on doing that. I'm just shaken, I suppose. Thank you PA H/A. Thank you. I guess a very sad celebration is in order. I'll need to find a good place to drink or something.
You can do it. You took the time to verify his e-mail and print them out. You saw what he was doing while you were together.
Remember, you broke up for a reason, no matter what the good times were, it can't make up for one gigantic screw up. Just keep that in mind, because if you ever go back to him, that thought will always be in the back of your mind and now that he's been caught unless he actually changes, it'll be a hundred times harder to catch him again and he's likely to be less honest with you.
For the love of all things holy and good in this world, do not mix alcohol with your problems. This will lead to a temporary boost followed by an exponentionally greater depression and making a mistake. You may end up missing him more, crying, calling him or going home with a bigger asshole to get revenge or just to not be alone.
lunarwulf on
It's been made abundantly clear that Ten O'Clock is time for Rainbow Six. It is not time for other games! You might think that it is, but it isn't. Don't show up at 10:05! That's not when it is. It is earlier.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
For the love of all things holy and good in this world, do not mix alcohol with your problems. This will lead to a temporary boost followed by an exponentionally greater depression and making a mistake. You may end up missing him more, crying, calling him or going home with a bigger asshole to get revenge or just to not be alone.
Agreed.
If you must drink, do it to have fun, not to drown your sorrows. Dealing with the pain now means getting over it that much more quickly. You don't want to risk doing something foolish as mentioned above.
Take some time, be alone for a while, then find someone who is worthy of your trust.
For the love of all things holy and good in this world, do not mix alcohol with your problems. This will lead to a temporary boost followed by an exponentionally greater depression and making a mistake. You may end up missing him more, crying, calling him or going home with a bigger asshole to get revenge or just to not be alone.
Agreed.
If you must drink, do it to have fun, not to drown your sorrows. Dealing with the pain now means getting over it that much more quickly. You don't want to risk doing something foolish as mentioned above.
Take some time, be alone for a while, then find someone who is worthy of your trust.
Drinking alone at this juncture will almost certainly not help, at the very least. I still say finding something you are good at to drown yourself in for a couple days is a better way to handle this than getting drunk, even though everyone else here seems to disagree.
ViolentChemistry on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
For the love of all things holy and good in this world, do not mix alcohol with your problems. This will lead to a temporary boost followed by an exponentionally greater depression and making a mistake. You may end up missing him more, crying, calling him or going home with a bigger asshole to get revenge or just to not be alone.
Agreed.
If you must drink, do it to have fun, not to drown your sorrows. Dealing with the pain now means getting over it that much more quickly. You don't want to risk doing something foolish as mentioned above.
Take some time, be alone for a while, then find someone who is worthy of your trust.
Drinking alone at this juncture will almost certainly not help, at the very least. I still say finding something you are good at to drown yourself in for a couple days is a better way to handle this than getting drunk, even though everyone else here seems to disagree.
Oh no, I agree, I just meant that she should not seek romantic companionship again for a while. I advise against drinking to forget her woes; this should definitely not be a time to get wasted, in my opinion.
My experience with people like your ex-boyfriend are that sure, it's possible for them to change, but 99% of the time it's far too difficult and they end up continuing the behavior.
Pojaco on
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NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
edited January 2007
Waltzy, I'm kinda in a similar situation and it's going to be tough.
Unfortunitly, I've been there once before (and now going through it again) and..... It's not easy.
Best bet is to cut off all ties with the guy for a good long while. Maybe even forever, and like the guys above me said, find something to throw yourself into. Art, writing, school work, anything job related?
This weekend is going to be tough for me, we had the whole house to ourselves for 3 days and now it's just going to be me. Alone in an empty house....
But people have a tendency to be stupid... and liars.
If it were me and the relationship was really great aside from that craigslist stuff, I would offer a second chance. Like someone else mentioned, he could have been into this before he met you and just had trouble getting away from it.
Everyone has their kinks... and most people aren't willing to accept them. That is why people hide stuff like that... because we aren't to the point in this world where we can just accept people for who they are.
If he wasn't really having sex with these girls and he wasn't ever going to... then what was the real harm? Sure some people would consider it cheating but seriously... he didn't take any action. (at least that's what he's said)
It's not as though he lied in the first place. He just didn't tell you... and why would he? "Hey honey... I post ads on craigslist to get girls interested in having sex with me, but it's just a fantasy..." I really don't think that would go over too well. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who masturbate thinking about their girlfriend's friends... or porn stars... or god knows what... but they aren't going to tell their girlfriend. (unless you have a really open relationship)
But maybe I'm mistaken and the guy actually was having sex with girls and he's a big fat liar... If so, then of course you should dump him.
Though really I don't think asking people for advice here on this subject is the best idea. Nobody here has personal involvement with you or him, which means most everyone is just going to side with you and label him the bad guy.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
But people have a tendency to be stupid... and liars.
If it were me and the relationship was really great aside from that craigslist stuff, I would offer a second chance. Like someone else mentioned, he could have been into this before he met you and just had trouble getting away from it.
Everyone has their kinks... and most people aren't willing to accept them. That is why people hide stuff like that... because we aren't to the point in this world where we can just accept people for who they are.
If he wasn't really having sex with these girls and he wasn't ever going to... then what was the real harm? Sure some people would consider it cheating but seriously... he didn't take any action. (at least that's what he's said)
It's not as though he lied in the first place. He just didn't tell you... and why would he? "Hey honey... I post ads on craigslist to get girls interested in having sex with me, but it's just a fantasy..." I really don't think that would go over too well. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who masturbate thinking about their girlfriend's friends... or porn stars... or god knows what... but they aren't going to tell their girlfriend. (unless you have a really open relationship)
But maybe I'm mistaken and the guy actually was having sex with girls and he's a big fat liar... If so, then of course you should dump him.
Though really I don't think asking people for advice here on this subject is the best idea. Nobody here has personal involvement with you or him, which means most everyone is just going to side with you and label him the bad guy.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
The parts I bolded don't exactly add up to a convincing argument in my opinion.
Just forget about him, he messed up and needs to pay for it.
matthias00 on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I just wanted to thank you for all your input/opinions and also clarify some things since I wrote such long venting post above.
- All I know for sure is that he's emailed and messaged various women on internet (paid sex partner sites, Craigslist, newspaper) trying to arrange meetings with them, with the apparent intention of either sex or going on dates.
- The emails/messages I've seen range from the end of October to end of December, which are how long the Gmail trash saves its deleted mails to when I discovered them.
- I view the above as cheating. When I'm in a romantic relationship with someone I devote my mind, heart, and body to only to that person and I expect the exact same thing in return.
- He tells me nothing's ever gone farther than email/messages. No phone call, no meeting with anyone.
- We've always had protected sex. (I don't ever want STDs or children..)
- I don't think I need a self esteem boost.. At least not significant enough to affect this matter. I've been asked out by many guys and he knows there were/are other guys interested in me.
You can probably tell that I'm confused as hell... He has been absolutely wonderful to me, supporting me about school and everything and treating me right. That's why I can't really understand why or how. Thank you again PA H/A and if you can give me more advice, I'd really appreciate them.
He says he's never gone any further than contacting people for sex... The fact of the matter is, he is probably lying. Even if in reality he never did hook up with anyone for sex, he did try, many many times.
What he has done is unacceptable and an irreparable breach of trust. It would be best not only for you but for him if you break it off with him. He needs the consequences, the harsh reality of what he is done, to smack him right upside the head. You need to be with someone better than him, Hell, being with no one at all would be better than being with someone like him.
I sincerely hope you leave him and never look back.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
A) Why would you trust someone who went to such great lengths to decieve you and hide their attempts to seek the company of others and to the best of your knowledge would have gotten away with it and never told you had you not caught them yourself? Why would you want to be involved with someone as described above?
C) Based on what I've seen of her posts in the past I'm pretty certain EndlessWaltz is not retarded, and is as such fully aware that none of us know her ex, and I'm sure that all advice we give is being taken with that grain of salt.
tl,dr;
I think it's just you. Well, just you and the guy who was previously unaware that the vagina is made of sensetive tissue and is susceptible to damage.
A) How is it "great lengths of deception"? There was no deceit at all. Deceit would involve him trying to mislead her, or being unfaithful to her... and I don't think trying to hook up with someone over the interet is "cheating"... it might be an indication that you want to cheat, or that you have cheated already... but it's no indication of actual cheating. (you could try to say that he was decieving her by acting as if he was faithful to her when he wasn't, but you don't really know if he actually even met any of these girls)
To the second part of your question. Welcome to life. People are going to lie to you and get away with it. In this case it wasn't even a lie. It was just lack of telling his girlfriend about his habit. Do you tell people you know every single one of your private details? If you have a really open relationship then maybe, but I would say in 99% of relationships, partners hide things from one another. Sad but true.
I wouldn't want to be involved with someone like that. I'm sure she didn't go into the relationship knowing he was doing it. (obviously) But when you've been with someone for so long and they've always been good to you and never hurt you and was always there for you, I find it a little cold and robotic to just throw them out of your life over something that might not have amounted to anything.
C) If people in this forum took everything with a grain of salt, they wouldn't be seeking advice here in the first place.
I'll tell you now that I hate cheaters. I can't stand people who cheat and act like it's no big deal. My dad cheated on my mom and it's permanently etched into my mind. I think it's horrible and nobody should stay in a relationship with someone who cheats on them. With that being said, unless this guy actually had sex with one of the girls he talked to, it's not exactly cheating. It's just an extreme form of flirting. I don't condone his behavior, I'm just trying to be more openminded about it.
A) With that being said, unless this guy actually had sex with one of the girls he talked to, it's not exactly cheating. It's just an extreme form of flirting. I don't condone his behavior, I'm just trying to be more openminded about it.
so you're saying is that if the guy says he didn't do anything, you have to trust that? There rarely is any evidence in these sorts of scandles, but you make it sound like the glove has to fit for him to be guilty of anything.
He paid for subscriptions to "find me for sex" type sites in addition to trolling craigslist.
He sent and received mails from various people relating to time spent on these sites.
These mails she found were all current and using his accurate information (address etc).
He never once mentioned to her that he was engaging in such activities, and I highly doubt she was hawking over him 24/7, which gives anyone time to engage in such no frills occasions.
You can say he never lied to her because she never asked, but he was being deceitful by being in the relationship and pursuing affections and interaction with other women directly relation to his sexual fantasies.
If that's not being a deceptive cheating bastard, I'm not sure what you would classify as one. Does she have to walk in on him boning craigslist responder#543 in order for him to be in the wrong?
I don't think so... He's got to have accountability for his actions, and if he's gooing to be involve din this kind of thing EVEN if he doesn't physically meet with any of these women, he's going to have to be upfront about it, because the moment he's found doing this, there is no way for any woman to go about trusting his word.
EclecticGroove on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
He paid for subscriptions to "find me for sex" type sites in addition to trolling craigslist.
He sent and received mails from various people relating to time spent on these sites.
These mails she found were all current and using his accurate information (address etc).
He never once mentioned to her that he was engaging in such activities, and I highly doubt she was hawking over him 24/7, which gives anyone time to engage in such no frills occasions.
You can say he never lied to her because she never asked, but he was being deceitful by being in the relationship and pursuing affections and interaction with other women directly relation to his sexual fantasies.
If that's not being a deceptive cheating bastard, I'm not sure what you would classify as one. Does she have to walk in on him boning craigslist responder#543 in order for him to be in the wrong?
I don't think so... He's got to have accountability for his actions, and if he's gooing to be involve din this kind of thing EVEN if he doesn't physically meet with any of these women, he's going to have to be upfront about it, because the moment he's found doing this, there is no way for any woman to go about trusting his word.
I agree completely. He may have never actually cheated, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.
Being accepting of this horse-shit would set a precedent. I don't know this guy, but he would probably think that if he can pull that shit and not get dumped, what can't he do? Motherfucker needs to get his priorities in order and he needs to know that he can not do this to people, he can not have his cake and eat it too... or have his girlfriend and fuck other women too.
EndlessWaltz does not deserve to be treated like this, nor does any other woman.
AbsoluteZero on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Yesterday night I told him that I didn't want to see how things went anymore. (Before we were just starting over from the casual dating stage.) And that I still didn't feel that he was being honest with me. He swore that he was and he had been in the last week, and that he didn't want to let this go and would spend his life trying to make it up to me. He also said he would give me some time and ask me out again because he only wanted me, with promises of honesty and faithfulness.
I didn't cave in but honestly I'm in a wreck and I don't know how long I can do it. I miss everything about him very much. I'm cutting off all contact with him and I really hope I can keep on doing that. I'm just shaken, I suppose. Thank you PA H/A. Thank you. I guess a very sad celebration is in order. I'll need to find a good place to drink or something.
When I was younger I cheated on a girlfriend. She was a kind sweet girl who frankly didn't deserve to be cheated on. I was her first bf and all that goes with it and the cheating hurt her pretty badly. And she (wisely) dumped me. I made every promise, and every excuse for why it wasn't my fault. And every word of it was just me trying to transfer the blame to her in trying to get her back.
I have never cheated on anyone since because I saw what it did to her. But if she had taken me back I don't think I would have learned from it and I probley would have cheated again.
Can he grow from this? Yes. Will he if you're still in his life? Probley not.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
A) Why would you trust someone who went to such great lengths to decieve you and hide their attempts to seek the company of others and to the best of your knowledge would have gotten away with it and never told you had you not caught them yourself? Why would you want to be involved with someone as described above?
C) Based on what I've seen of her posts in the past I'm pretty certain EndlessWaltz is not retarded, and is as such fully aware that none of us know her ex, and I'm sure that all advice we give is being taken with that grain of salt.
tl,dr;
I think it's just you. Well, just you and the guy who was previously unaware that the vagina is made of sensetive tissue and is susceptible to damage.
Get this: because people are different. Every relationship is different. In a situation like this I personally would compare the ups and downs of the relationship. I think it's really unfair to generalize in cases like this, and say shit like "omg he deceived you, leave him!"
People make mistakes. They fuck up. And sometimes those fuck-ups make the bond between the two people much stronger. She has already mentioned more than once that the guy is a great guy and treats her extremely well. Maybe it is one of those cases where he does deserve a second chance?
You people are so uptight about this.
also: ah, fuck it. i'll respond to your ridiculous red herring in PMs, since you happen to be a mod on this forum.
A) How is it "great lengths of deception"? There was no deceit at all. Deceit would involve him trying to mislead her, or being unfaithful to her... and I don't think trying to hook up with someone over the interet is "cheating"... it might be an indication that you want to cheat, or that you have cheated already... but it's no indication of actual cheating. (you could try to say that he was decieving her by acting as if he was faithful to her when he wasn't, but you don't really know if he actually even met any of these girls)
Yeah. We all know that the only form of cheating that exists is being caught balls-deep in another woman. Nothing else counts.
To the second part of your question. Welcome to life. People are going to lie to you and get away with it. In this case it wasn't even a lie. It was just lack of telling his girlfriend about his habit. Do you tell people you know every single one of your private details? If you have a really open relationship then maybe, but I would say in 99% of relationships, partners hide things from one another. Sad but true.
Yep. You should shut up and take it when people lie to you. I mean everyone does it. There isn't a single trustworthy person alive in the world.
I wouldn't want to be involved with someone like that. I'm sure she didn't go into the relationship knowing he was doing it. (obviously) But when you've been with someone for so long and they've always been good to you and never hurt you and was always there for you, I find it a little cold and robotic to just throw them out of your life over something that might not have amounted to anything.
Because if they've managed to hide it for this long, its probably half your fault anyway for not finding out sooner. Better just accept it.
I'll tell you now that I hate cheaters. I can't stand people who cheat and act like it's no big deal. My dad cheated on my mom and it's permanently etched into my mind. I think it's horrible and nobody should stay in a relationship with someone who cheats on them. With that being said, unless this guy actually had sex with one of the girls he talked to, it's not exactly cheating. It's just an extreme form of flirting. I don't condone his behavior, I'm just trying to be more openminded about it.
Yep. Not balls-deep in a woman. Not cheating. Why could you possibly be offended? Crybaby.
I'll tell you now that I hate cheaters. I can't stand people who cheat and act like it's no big deal. My dad cheated on my mom and it's permanently etched into my mind. I think it's horrible and nobody should stay in a relationship with someone who cheats on them. With that being said, unless this guy actually had sex with one of the girls he talked to, it's not exactly cheating. It's just an extreme form of flirting. I don't condone his behavior, I'm just trying to be more openminded about it.
Don't you think that it started somewhere? Like maybe some who actually have sex with others make a few attempts before they actually succeed?
Is she supposed to wait until he actually screws one of these women?
Well, in this case, the woman does consider it cheating, she has said that if she is willing to be with someone, that she gives over her mind, body, and soul to them and wouldn't do this to them. From her standpoint, it is cheating. Mine too, while we're at it.
The guy, wasn't straightforwad, he was lying by omission. They had already been dating for months and she had only seen what messages the e-mail server had not deleted by time frame. I'd say he was making an active effort to cheat.
She's better off without him.
lunarwulf on
It's been made abundantly clear that Ten O'Clock is time for Rainbow Six. It is not time for other games! You might think that it is, but it isn't. Don't show up at 10:05! That's not when it is. It is earlier.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
A) Why would you trust someone who went to such great lengths to decieve you and hide their attempts to seek the company of others and to the best of your knowledge would have gotten away with it and never told you had you not caught them yourself? Why would you want to be involved with someone as described above?
C) Based on what I've seen of her posts in the past I'm pretty certain EndlessWaltz is not retarded, and is as such fully aware that none of us know her ex, and I'm sure that all advice we give is being taken with that grain of salt.
tl,dr;
I think it's just you. Well, just you and the guy who was previously unaware that the vagina is made of sensetive tissue and is susceptible to damage.
Get this: because people are different. Every relationship is different. In a situation like this I personally would compare the ups and downs of the relationship. I think it's really unfair to generalize in cases like this, and say shit like "omg he deceived you, leave him!"
People make mistakes. They fuck up. And sometimes those fuck-ups make the bond between the two people much stronger. She has already mentioned more than once that the guy is a great guy and treats her extremely well. Maybe it is one of those cases where he does deserve a second chance?
You people are so uptight about this.
also: ah, fuck it. i'll respond to your ridiculous red herring in PMs, since you happen to be a mod on this forum.
The "fuck up" of determinedly and surreptitiously seeking out what would appear to most outside observers as multiple cheating partners?
Alright.
Princeps on
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah
Yeah. We all know that the only form of cheating that exists is being caught balls-deep in another woman. Nothing else counts.
Way to take what I say and twist it into something it's not. You make it sound as if he WAS having sex with these women... when he may or may not have been. You act as if it's an open and shut case. That's the problem. Again, I'm not trying to protect this guy or say what he did was okay by any means. But most guys have this tendency to want to flirt with many girls... and "spread their seed" if you catch my drift. Maybe the guy was just honestly getting rid of those urges by flirting with women over the internet. It's still wrong, but at least it's a step up from actually picking up women in bars and having sex with them.
I know a lot of people would consider what he did cheating, even if he didn't meet any of these girls... sure he wasn't exactly faithful to his girlfriend, but he might not have been sexual with any of these girls, and he certainly didn't love any of them.
Let me ask you this... do you consider masturbating to porno as cheating on your girlfriend? You're fantasizing about some other woman just like this guy was. Please don't even bother trying to tell me that guys don't spank the monkey when they have girlfriends or wives.
Yep. You should shut up and take it when people lie to you. I mean everyone does it. There isn't a single trustworthy person alive in the world.
...... Or something?
Again, that's not what I meant. Yes everyone lies. Don't be so naive. Some people just don't lie as much as others, or their lies are small and harmless. If you tell me you've never lied in your life I will just laugh right out of my chair. I didn't say she should just shut up and take it. Obviously the guy needs to learn from what he's done... but breaking up and losing that relationship forever? I dunno... seems too harsh in my opinion... for what MIGHT HAVE BEEN some stupid flirting. Don't try to sit on your high horse and act like you're perfect and have never lied.
Because if they've managed to hide it for this long, its probably half your fault anyway for not finding out sooner. Better just accept it.
Try to come up with something less childish as a response please. If you can't read what I'm writing, just say so... you don't need to just make up random comebacks to everything I say.
Yep. Not balls-deep in a woman. Not cheating. Why could you possibly be offended? Crybaby.
Yep. You've missed my point entirely. Way to go. I think I made it pretty clear that it was lousy of him and she should be offended and hurt. But if he did NOT have sex or meet these women then he did NOT cheat. It really just boils down to what everyones definition of "cheating" really is. Some people consider any form of flirting as "OMG BREAK UP IMMEDIATELY". Some people find flirting as harmless.
In the end, she just needs to find out if he was really just doing this to get rid of urges safely or if he was actually trying to hook up with these girls to meet and have sex. There is a huge difference. The internet has the problem of allowing people to feel safe behind their computers and he might have just been stupid and thought he could have these little get together fantasies on the internet and it wouldn't be a "big deal". He might have had no intention of actually having sex with these women, and in the end I believe that INTENTION is what makes someone a cheater.
Unfortunately most people live by the "guilty until proven innocent way of life" it seems.
I can only hope that you are one day in a similar situation as this guy and the girl of your dreams leaves you because you were just being stupid and not thinking what you were doing was a big deal. I'm sure you'll say "I would never do that" but I'm sure this guy would have said the exact same thing before this happened.
Light and playfull flirting, be it in person, or online is not the same as signing up for swinger sites and trolling for people looking for sex on craigslist.
Masturbating to some picture you find hot is also not the same as arranging meetings for these same "real" people via e-mail and chat, and maybe even phone calls.
And no, this is not the same as "supressing urges". If you want to go down that route thatt his guy is addicted to thei kind of life style, then it's essentially the same as her finding out this guys is an alcoholic or druf user that's been hiding his addiction from her and lying about it from the start (lying as in being deceptive).
So yeah, IF... biiiiiig IF, she can trust that he is not lying about meeting these women, which there is no way she can prove or disprove without doing things like mailing all of these women back and asking, or hiring someone to look into it... she would have to trust his word... which means essentially nothing right now.
Sure, she could take the advice to give him "just one more shot"... but what is to be gained? You say breaking up will be a bit harsh? I disagree. If he can get away with this she will be an enabler, since he knows that this wasn't enough to drive her away, so he just needs to be more carefull about it. Maybe he would clean up, maybe he wouldn't... but how would she ever know short of creating an oppressively unhealthy relationship for both of them?
I can only hope that you are one day in a similar situation as this guy and the girl of your dreams leaves you because you were just being stupid and not thinking what you were doing was a big deal. I'm sure you'll say "I would never do that" but I'm sure this guy would have said the exact same thing before this happened.
I could only hope that if I was STUPID enough to do somehting like this witht he "woman of my dreams" that yes, she would be smart enough to dump my ass like a bad habit... because it's just that STUPID, and he deserves the consequences of that stupidity in the hopes he will actually learn from it and do better next time... if not, then I hope the next girl dumps his ass too.
Yep. Not balls-deep in a woman. Not cheating. Why could you possibly be offended? Crybaby.
Yep. You've missed my point entirely. Way to go. I think I made it pretty clear that it was lousy of him and she should be offended and hurt. But if he did NOT have sex or meet these women then he did NOT cheat. It really just boils down to what everyones definition of "cheating" really is. Some people consider any form of flirting as "OMG BREAK UP IMMEDIATELY". Some people find flirting as harmless.
In the end, she just needs to find out if he was really just doing this to get rid of urges safely or if he was actually trying to hook up with these girls to meet and have sex. There is a huge difference. The internet has the problem of allowing people to feel safe behind their computers and he might have just been stupid and thought he could have these little get together fantasies on the internet and it wouldn't be a "big deal". He might have had no intention of actually having sex with these women, and in the end I believe that INTENTION is what makes someone a cheater.
Unfortunately most people live by the "guilty until proven innocent way of life" it seems.
I can only hope that you are one day in a similar situation as this guy and the girl of your dreams leaves you because you were just being stupid and not thinking what you were doing was a big deal. I'm sure you'll say "I would never do that" but I'm sure this guy would have said the exact same thing before this happened.
I'm pretty sure that Wylder's (overly-sarcastic) point is that you and he (and pretty much everyone else in this forum, including myself) have a drastically different view of the definition of cheating. Your definition seems to be that if he wasn't having sex, he didn't cheat. My definition would be that if he is seeking either sexual or emotional gratification from a woman other than the one he is in a relationship with, he is cheating.
Even if you don't want to call it cheating, what he did was still wrong. He knows that, because he's promising to stop and never do it again. Cheating or not, it was a betrayal of their relationship.
I'm just gonna say, people only hide stuff because the conscience is built in. We all have a moral compass, if you're hiding something, you know its wrong. You can dull it by doing things frequently enough that go against it, but karma will come back for you.
Now if dude is still sending you flowers weekly in say March, he's probably a changed man.
Just out of curiosity, OP, which would you consider the more egregious perpetration your boyfriend could have committed: multiple instances of casual sex with many women, or single prolonged, intimate and emotional relationship with one woman?
I'm not necessarily trying to illustrate a point here, I'm just interested in your answer for the science of it.
My definition would be that if he is seeking either sexual or emotional gratification from a woman other than the one he is in a relationship with, he is cheating.
That seems too black and white for a very grey issue.
Is porn cheating? It's a woman (or man) you are not in a relationship with, whom one uses for sexual gratification.
Are Harliquin romance novels cheating? They contain characters written in such a way to spur on emotional gratification.
Is horseback riding cheating? How about chocolate? A vibrator? A cored-out apple, five fingers, tube socks, altered plush toys, leather whips, dolphin posters, playing cards?
Amatuer porn on Craigslist? Personalized amatuer porn on Craigslist? Actively seeking personalized written and visual porn on Craigslist?
I think the line is a bit different for everyone. And what most people don't get about the line is, is that everytime you brush up against it, it moves just a little farther away. Not because you want it to, but because you get desensitized to what that line used to be, and have to push just a little bit harder to get the same feelings next time. To the person, it doesn't seem like they are moving, to them it just feels the same. Its only when someone crashes in from the outside world and says 'omgwhtthefuck?!!??' when a new and real reference point is established. A reminder of where that line should or used to be.
Some people can come back, sometimes they can't. Sometimes it isn't worth it when they do. Other times, a dose of reality makes things clear. Stranger things can happen.
I ask you to read all of my posts and understand them fully before you try to offer me an advice.
And I sincerely hope that you will remain as openhearted and generous as now when you find +50 emails of your girlfriend asking other men out commenting how handsome they are and how she'd love to get to know them, how her place is empty and when she gets off work, and also, an emailed story she herself wrote of how she'd want to be fucked by those men in all the months you've been together.
LiveWire,
I just wanted to comment on your ill-timed and inappropriate "just out of curiosity" question, which you are "not necessarily trying to illustrate a point", but "just interested" in my answer "for the science of it".
I sincerely hope that one of the mods jail you for posting that in my help thread.
Someone please lock this thread. I never asked to explain what cheating means to me.
Someone please lock this thread. I never asked to explain what cheating means to me.[/i]
Seriously, my apologies. I didn't mean to imply that you should explain yourself, only to say that addictions and the situations they invoke occur in small little steps. One moral comprimise after the other. Sometimes these things happen so gradually that one can think they are truly innocent, and only think otherwise when a valued outside party steps in and gives thier own opinion. An intervention, if you will.
Personally, I support your decision to let him go. Kinks, being a type of addiction, almost always escalate when left to thier own devices. If you hadn't seen what you did, fantasy would have inevitably become reality, if it hasn't already. I tend to think of cheating as defined by what the other person considers cheating, so if it was wrong to you, it was wrong period. After all, your definition is the only one that truly matters, no matter what that definition is.
Anyone who truly loves with thier whole heart is worthy of the same. Be strong, passionate and steadfast and you will find what you're looking for. Without question.
Posts
You can do it. You took the time to verify his e-mail and print them out. You saw what he was doing while you were together.
Remember, you broke up for a reason, no matter what the good times were, it can't make up for one gigantic screw up. Just keep that in mind, because if you ever go back to him, that thought will always be in the back of your mind and now that he's been caught unless he actually changes, it'll be a hundred times harder to catch him again and he's likely to be less honest with you.
For the love of all things holy and good in this world, do not mix alcohol with your problems. This will lead to a temporary boost followed by an exponentionally greater depression and making a mistake. You may end up missing him more, crying, calling him or going home with a bigger asshole to get revenge or just to not be alone.
If you must drink, do it to have fun, not to drown your sorrows. Dealing with the pain now means getting over it that much more quickly. You don't want to risk doing something foolish as mentioned above.
Take some time, be alone for a while, then find someone who is worthy of your trust.
Poorly worded on my part; apologies OP.
Unfortunitly, I've been there once before (and now going through it again) and..... It's not easy.
Best bet is to cut off all ties with the guy for a good long while. Maybe even forever, and like the guys above me said, find something to throw yourself into. Art, writing, school work, anything job related?
This weekend is going to be tough for me, we had the whole house to ourselves for 3 days and now it's just going to be me. Alone in an empty house....
If it were me and the relationship was really great aside from that craigslist stuff, I would offer a second chance. Like someone else mentioned, he could have been into this before he met you and just had trouble getting away from it.
Everyone has their kinks... and most people aren't willing to accept them. That is why people hide stuff like that... because we aren't to the point in this world where we can just accept people for who they are.
If he wasn't really having sex with these girls and he wasn't ever going to... then what was the real harm? Sure some people would consider it cheating but seriously... he didn't take any action. (at least that's what he's said)
It's not as though he lied in the first place. He just didn't tell you... and why would he? "Hey honey... I post ads on craigslist to get girls interested in having sex with me, but it's just a fantasy..." I really don't think that would go over too well. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who masturbate thinking about their girlfriend's friends... or porn stars... or god knows what... but they aren't going to tell their girlfriend. (unless you have a really open relationship)
But maybe I'm mistaken and the guy actually was having sex with girls and he's a big fat liar... If so, then of course you should dump him.
Though really I don't think asking people for advice here on this subject is the best idea. Nobody here has personal involvement with you or him, which means most everyone is just going to side with you and label him the bad guy.
Maybe it's just me... but if I caught my girlfriend doing this and we had been together for a long time and loved eachother a lot, I think I'd give her a second chance... only if I really felt that she wasn't actually meeting the people. People don't always use their heads... especially when guys tend to think with a different head.
The parts I bolded don't exactly add up to a convincing argument in my opinion.
Just forget about him, he messed up and needs to pay for it.
He says he's never gone any further than contacting people for sex... The fact of the matter is, he is probably lying. Even if in reality he never did hook up with anyone for sex, he did try, many many times.
What he has done is unacceptable and an irreparable breach of trust. It would be best not only for you but for him if you break it off with him. He needs the consequences, the harsh reality of what he is done, to smack him right upside the head. You need to be with someone better than him, Hell, being with no one at all would be better than being with someone like him.
I sincerely hope you leave him and never look back.
C) Based on what I've seen of her posts in the past I'm pretty certain EndlessWaltz is not retarded, and is as such fully aware that none of us know her ex, and I'm sure that all advice we give is being taken with that grain of salt.
tl,dr;
I think it's just you. Well, just you and the guy who was previously unaware that the vagina is made of sensetive tissue and is susceptible to damage.
To the second part of your question. Welcome to life. People are going to lie to you and get away with it. In this case it wasn't even a lie. It was just lack of telling his girlfriend about his habit. Do you tell people you know every single one of your private details? If you have a really open relationship then maybe, but I would say in 99% of relationships, partners hide things from one another. Sad but true.
C) If people in this forum took everything with a grain of salt, they wouldn't be seeking advice here in the first place.
I'll tell you now that I hate cheaters. I can't stand people who cheat and act like it's no big deal. My dad cheated on my mom and it's permanently etched into my mind. I think it's horrible and nobody should stay in a relationship with someone who cheats on them. With that being said, unless this guy actually had sex with one of the girls he talked to, it's not exactly cheating. It's just an extreme form of flirting. I don't condone his behavior, I'm just trying to be more openminded about it.
so you're saying is that if the guy says he didn't do anything, you have to trust that? There rarely is any evidence in these sorts of scandles, but you make it sound like the glove has to fit for him to be guilty of anything.
He sent and received mails from various people relating to time spent on these sites.
These mails she found were all current and using his accurate information (address etc).
He never once mentioned to her that he was engaging in such activities, and I highly doubt she was hawking over him 24/7, which gives anyone time to engage in such no frills occasions.
You can say he never lied to her because she never asked, but he was being deceitful by being in the relationship and pursuing affections and interaction with other women directly relation to his sexual fantasies.
If that's not being a deceptive cheating bastard, I'm not sure what you would classify as one. Does she have to walk in on him boning craigslist responder#543 in order for him to be in the wrong?
I don't think so... He's got to have accountability for his actions, and if he's gooing to be involve din this kind of thing EVEN if he doesn't physically meet with any of these women, he's going to have to be upfront about it, because the moment he's found doing this, there is no way for any woman to go about trusting his word.
I agree completely. He may have never actually cheated, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.
Being accepting of this horse-shit would set a precedent. I don't know this guy, but he would probably think that if he can pull that shit and not get dumped, what can't he do? Motherfucker needs to get his priorities in order and he needs to know that he can not do this to people, he can not have his cake and eat it too... or have his girlfriend and fuck other women too.
EndlessWaltz does not deserve to be treated like this, nor does any other woman.
When I was younger I cheated on a girlfriend. She was a kind sweet girl who frankly didn't deserve to be cheated on. I was her first bf and all that goes with it and the cheating hurt her pretty badly. And she (wisely) dumped me. I made every promise, and every excuse for why it wasn't my fault. And every word of it was just me trying to transfer the blame to her in trying to get her back.
I have never cheated on anyone since because I saw what it did to her. But if she had taken me back I don't think I would have learned from it and I probley would have cheated again.
Can he grow from this? Yes. Will he if you're still in his life? Probley not.
Get this: because people are different. Every relationship is different. In a situation like this I personally would compare the ups and downs of the relationship. I think it's really unfair to generalize in cases like this, and say shit like "omg he deceived you, leave him!"
People make mistakes. They fuck up. And sometimes those fuck-ups make the bond between the two people much stronger. She has already mentioned more than once that the guy is a great guy and treats her extremely well. Maybe it is one of those cases where he does deserve a second chance?
You people are so uptight about this.
also: ah, fuck it. i'll respond to your ridiculous red herring in PMs, since you happen to be a mod on this forum.
Yeah. We all know that the only form of cheating that exists is being caught balls-deep in another woman. Nothing else counts.
Yep. You should shut up and take it when people lie to you. I mean everyone does it. There isn't a single trustworthy person alive in the world.
...... Or something?
Because if they've managed to hide it for this long, its probably half your fault anyway for not finding out sooner. Better just accept it.
Yep. Not balls-deep in a woman. Not cheating. Why could you possibly be offended? Crybaby.
Is she supposed to wait until he actually screws one of these women?
Well, in this case, the woman does consider it cheating, she has said that if she is willing to be with someone, that she gives over her mind, body, and soul to them and wouldn't do this to them. From her standpoint, it is cheating. Mine too, while we're at it.
The guy, wasn't straightforwad, he was lying by omission. They had already been dating for months and she had only seen what messages the e-mail server had not deleted by time frame. I'd say he was making an active effort to cheat.
She's better off without him.
The "fuck up" of determinedly and surreptitiously seeking out what would appear to most outside observers as multiple cheating partners?
Alright.
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah
I know a lot of people would consider what he did cheating, even if he didn't meet any of these girls... sure he wasn't exactly faithful to his girlfriend, but he might not have been sexual with any of these girls, and he certainly didn't love any of them.
Let me ask you this... do you consider masturbating to porno as cheating on your girlfriend? You're fantasizing about some other woman just like this guy was. Please don't even bother trying to tell me that guys don't spank the monkey when they have girlfriends or wives.
Again, that's not what I meant. Yes everyone lies. Don't be so naive. Some people just don't lie as much as others, or their lies are small and harmless. If you tell me you've never lied in your life I will just laugh right out of my chair. I didn't say she should just shut up and take it. Obviously the guy needs to learn from what he's done... but breaking up and losing that relationship forever? I dunno... seems too harsh in my opinion... for what MIGHT HAVE BEEN some stupid flirting. Don't try to sit on your high horse and act like you're perfect and have never lied.
Try to come up with something less childish as a response please. If you can't read what I'm writing, just say so... you don't need to just make up random comebacks to everything I say.
Yep. You've missed my point entirely. Way to go. I think I made it pretty clear that it was lousy of him and she should be offended and hurt. But if he did NOT have sex or meet these women then he did NOT cheat. It really just boils down to what everyones definition of "cheating" really is. Some people consider any form of flirting as "OMG BREAK UP IMMEDIATELY". Some people find flirting as harmless.
In the end, she just needs to find out if he was really just doing this to get rid of urges safely or if he was actually trying to hook up with these girls to meet and have sex. There is a huge difference. The internet has the problem of allowing people to feel safe behind their computers and he might have just been stupid and thought he could have these little get together fantasies on the internet and it wouldn't be a "big deal". He might have had no intention of actually having sex with these women, and in the end I believe that INTENTION is what makes someone a cheater.
Unfortunately most people live by the "guilty until proven innocent way of life" it seems.
I can only hope that you are one day in a similar situation as this guy and the girl of your dreams leaves you because you were just being stupid and not thinking what you were doing was a big deal. I'm sure you'll say "I would never do that" but I'm sure this guy would have said the exact same thing before this happened.
Masturbating to some picture you find hot is also not the same as arranging meetings for these same "real" people via e-mail and chat, and maybe even phone calls.
And no, this is not the same as "supressing urges". If you want to go down that route thatt his guy is addicted to thei kind of life style, then it's essentially the same as her finding out this guys is an alcoholic or druf user that's been hiding his addiction from her and lying about it from the start (lying as in being deceptive).
So yeah, IF... biiiiiig IF, she can trust that he is not lying about meeting these women, which there is no way she can prove or disprove without doing things like mailing all of these women back and asking, or hiring someone to look into it... she would have to trust his word... which means essentially nothing right now.
Sure, she could take the advice to give him "just one more shot"... but what is to be gained? You say breaking up will be a bit harsh? I disagree. If he can get away with this she will be an enabler, since he knows that this wasn't enough to drive her away, so he just needs to be more carefull about it. Maybe he would clean up, maybe he wouldn't... but how would she ever know short of creating an oppressively unhealthy relationship for both of them?
I could only hope that if I was STUPID enough to do somehting like this witht he "woman of my dreams" that yes, she would be smart enough to dump my ass like a bad habit... because it's just that STUPID, and he deserves the consequences of that stupidity in the hopes he will actually learn from it and do better next time... if not, then I hope the next girl dumps his ass too.
I'm pretty sure that Wylder's (overly-sarcastic) point is that you and he (and pretty much everyone else in this forum, including myself) have a drastically different view of the definition of cheating. Your definition seems to be that if he wasn't having sex, he didn't cheat. My definition would be that if he is seeking either sexual or emotional gratification from a woman other than the one he is in a relationship with, he is cheating.
Even if you don't want to call it cheating, what he did was still wrong. He knows that, because he's promising to stop and never do it again. Cheating or not, it was a betrayal of their relationship.
Now if dude is still sending you flowers weekly in say March, he's probably a changed man.
I'm not necessarily trying to illustrate a point here, I'm just interested in your answer for the science of it.
That seems too black and white for a very grey issue.
Is porn cheating? It's a woman (or man) you are not in a relationship with, whom one uses for sexual gratification.
Are Harliquin romance novels cheating? They contain characters written in such a way to spur on emotional gratification.
Is horseback riding cheating? How about chocolate? A vibrator? A cored-out apple, five fingers, tube socks, altered plush toys, leather whips, dolphin posters, playing cards?
Amatuer porn on Craigslist? Personalized amatuer porn on Craigslist? Actively seeking personalized written and visual porn on Craigslist?
I think the line is a bit different for everyone. And what most people don't get about the line is, is that everytime you brush up against it, it moves just a little farther away. Not because you want it to, but because you get desensitized to what that line used to be, and have to push just a little bit harder to get the same feelings next time. To the person, it doesn't seem like they are moving, to them it just feels the same. Its only when someone crashes in from the outside world and says 'omgwhtthefuck?!!??' when a new and real reference point is established. A reminder of where that line should or used to be.
Some people can come back, sometimes they can't. Sometimes it isn't worth it when they do. Other times, a dose of reality makes things clear. Stranger things can happen.
I ask you to read all of my posts and understand them fully before you try to offer me an advice.
And I sincerely hope that you will remain as openhearted and generous as now when you find +50 emails of your girlfriend asking other men out commenting how handsome they are and how she'd love to get to know them, how her place is empty and when she gets off work, and also, an emailed story she herself wrote of how she'd want to be fucked by those men in all the months you've been together.
LiveWire,
I just wanted to comment on your ill-timed and inappropriate "just out of curiosity" question, which you are "not necessarily trying to illustrate a point", but "just interested" in my answer "for the science of it".
I sincerely hope that one of the mods jail you for posting that in my help thread.
Someone please lock this thread. I never asked to explain what cheating means to me.
Seriously, my apologies. I didn't mean to imply that you should explain yourself, only to say that addictions and the situations they invoke occur in small little steps. One moral comprimise after the other. Sometimes these things happen so gradually that one can think they are truly innocent, and only think otherwise when a valued outside party steps in and gives thier own opinion. An intervention, if you will.
Personally, I support your decision to let him go. Kinks, being a type of addiction, almost always escalate when left to thier own devices. If you hadn't seen what you did, fantasy would have inevitably become reality, if it hasn't already. I tend to think of cheating as defined by what the other person considers cheating, so if it was wrong to you, it was wrong period. After all, your definition is the only one that truly matters, no matter what that definition is.
Anyone who truly loves with thier whole heart is worthy of the same. Be strong, passionate and steadfast and you will find what you're looking for. Without question.
EDIT: This thread desperately needs to be locked.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH