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Another new car thread! (plus: Am I crazy re: financing?)
EggyToast
Jersey CityRegistered User regular
Jersey CityRegistered User regular
These seem to be in vogue -- must be the arrival of spring and everyone looking at their old junkers. Some background that's important, before I get to the questions:
That leads me towards hatchbacks. I like hatchbacks. I like Subaru wagons, too. But I only know about a couple hatchbacks, and I'm bad at finding out what actual prices are, especially when used gets into the equation. So sporty cars, coupes, sedans -- all out. Has to fit a double bass in, and while I can do that in the Corolla, it goes in through the passenger door with the seat down and is only good for short trips (and it's a pain in the ass). Hatchbacks have the extra space in the rear and etc. etc.
I know about the bigger hatchbacks/wagons like the Matrix, the defunct Vibe, and some Mazdas? And the little new hatchbacks like the Fit, maybe the cube or the xB. But I don't know how these drive, whether they suck, and what the prices are roughly. I'd like to stay under/around $15k so I can, you know, afford it, but I don't want a 2003 with 90k miles on it either. I want something that won't need major maintenance for a few years.
We were pretty excited about the Honda Element, due to the highly variable back seats, but they start over $20k new and seem to hang out well above $15k for anything under/around 50k miles.
Here's the Crazy Financing part.
A used Honda Fit with 21k miles sells for $16k, financing at the typical 6%. A brand new Honda Fit sells for $18k and Honda regularly has deals for 2% financing. That makes the monthly difference in car payment $6.
For $6, why would anyone buy the used car? Am I missing something as to the reason people buy used cars that aren't REALLY used? It makes sense to me if you're looking at buying, say, a 1998 Corolla with 140k miles on it, but if I'm looking at cars with under 50k miles, they're barely depreciating.
- I currently drive a '98 Corolla. My wife and I have one car that we share.
- We regularly go camping and do other outdoorsy things, and get by OK in the Corolla.
- I play double bass, which would need to fit in a new car (easily)
- We don't own any dogs and usually don't w/ friends for outdoor things, so don't need an SUV.
That leads me towards hatchbacks. I like hatchbacks. I like Subaru wagons, too. But I only know about a couple hatchbacks, and I'm bad at finding out what actual prices are, especially when used gets into the equation. So sporty cars, coupes, sedans -- all out. Has to fit a double bass in, and while I can do that in the Corolla, it goes in through the passenger door with the seat down and is only good for short trips (and it's a pain in the ass). Hatchbacks have the extra space in the rear and etc. etc.
I know about the bigger hatchbacks/wagons like the Matrix, the defunct Vibe, and some Mazdas? And the little new hatchbacks like the Fit, maybe the cube or the xB. But I don't know how these drive, whether they suck, and what the prices are roughly. I'd like to stay under/around $15k so I can, you know, afford it, but I don't want a 2003 with 90k miles on it either. I want something that won't need major maintenance for a few years.
We were pretty excited about the Honda Element, due to the highly variable back seats, but they start over $20k new and seem to hang out well above $15k for anything under/around 50k miles.
Here's the Crazy Financing part.
A used Honda Fit with 21k miles sells for $16k, financing at the typical 6%. A brand new Honda Fit sells for $18k and Honda regularly has deals for 2% financing. That makes the monthly difference in car payment $6.
For $6, why would anyone buy the used car? Am I missing something as to the reason people buy used cars that aren't REALLY used? It makes sense to me if you're looking at buying, say, a 1998 Corolla with 140k miles on it, but if I'm looking at cars with under 50k miles, they're barely depreciating.
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Why someone might buy used over new could have to do with not being able to get approved for that extra $2k or insurance reasons. Or they prefer the older model for one reason or another.
That's one thing I do recommend, take a test drive even if you're not sure. It's how I ended up realizing I loved the Rav4. I went there to get a Yaris.
The financing of used cars has always been several percentage points higher then new. Back when a good new auto loan rate was 5% I was seeing 8-10% for used.
Speaking to that Fit you posted, a year ago it was extremely difficult to find a Fit with low miles, a Fit averaging 25K miles/yr maybe, or new, but in between was hard. Also, that's a dealer, you'll likely pay less if you found it private party (KBB says about $14.6K in excellent condition). You may be able to find a "going rate" if you tried to get your bank/credit union to finance you; they might say "we'll finance you up to $14.5K for that, but no way $16K." That also might give you some negotiating leverage.
Buying outright or having a significantly smaller loan (a down payment big enough to take it down to 50% or less of new, not 85% of new) was always the primary reason for me to buy used.
If you like the subie wagons, also check out the Forester. You might be able to find one a few years old w/low miles, non-turbo in your price range. Yeah it's an suv, but sans turbo it gets decent mileage and it's not nearly as tippy feeling as other suvs.
So a coworker of mine has a Versa that she said she liked more than the Fit she tested, because it's a little heavier and so handles a bit better. It also seems that searching online at dealer/national sites might not be the best way to get an estimate on prices. It seems that there's a dealership near here that is selling new Versa hatchbacks for $11.5k, and apparently Nissan has a 0% financing deal nationally. I've ridden in a Versa hatchback once, but don't know much about it otherwise.
I understand the used thing for more expensive cars since their depreciation schedule would naturally be greater.
Normally I'd run these things by my dad first but he owns an S2000 and is more interested in sporty power and styling than he is about a box to hold stuff as you go from point A to B. As long as they have an AUX port for me to plug my iPod into, they're all better than what I'm driving now.
Pretty much everything I have heard about the Fit has been positive. Except my wife thinks they look stupid. The Fit is pretty much the spiritual successor to the old Honda Civic hatchbacks, which were totally awesome.
I mean most cars look kind of stupid, so the "flea" shape that many hatches are doesn't bother me at all. But the high price of used Hondas makes me think that it might be worthwhile to look at other brands, as I'm sure the used prices influence dealers to keep their new prices higher as well.
I've had a Pontiac Vibe since 05 and love the car. It's essentially the same car as the Matrix, I think only the body paneling is different. Anyway, the seats are incredibly comfortable for long drives. Last time I checked I was getting 30/32mpg mixed highway/city. It's clearly not sporty in the engine department but it's plenty for me. If they still have the all plastic back, it's good and bad. Easy to clean but shit slides around, but it does have plenty of tie down locations.
I've only had one minor problem with it that was covered under warranty. AC/heater fan died. 110k miles on it so far.
I bought a mazda 3 hatch a few years ago and really enjoy it; it's probably a touch higher than your budget, but new was ~18k or so for the base models (and that was 3 years ago, now they might be considerably more desperate)... they have an absurd amount of space for how tiny it looks on the outside
The Nissan... Versa? was also one that I've seen and thought it looked nice, and I was heavily debating the Subaru ones (but that comes down to more of an issue of 'is 4wd useful for you for an extra couple thousand plus increased fuel costs' than car choice)
Re: new/used, I found the same thing when I was looking - used cars that were
My wife really wants something for 7-8 thousand on the loan, which she justifies by saying that she hasn't looked at cars at all since 2001 (when she bought the Corolla -- with cash, thanks to a dead relative). That's mostly why I wanted to clarify the used car craziness -- they do seem to regularly go for essentially the same as what you'd pay for a new car, all things considered, which means that getting a REALLY cheap used car means you get something that's actually old.
There's a local place that I might be able to get a new Versa hatch down to around $9,000 w/ 0% financing. I'm getting the impression (from here and a few google searches) that when you get down to this price point, the focus is really on just making a car that works, since you're not interested in shit like leather trim and 9.1 speaker systems.
I might be a Mazda fanboi though.
Its really a pretty amazing car. You might want to note that it consistently gets much higher reviews than any other car in the catagory. If you have any questions about it, feel free.
It doesn't have quite as much storage room as the Fit, but it gets better fuel economy, drives better, and IMO looks much less awkward. Provided Ford doesn't botch up the transfer here to the States (which they might), this is the same car that has been the #1 seller in the UK for several years running and everyone there loves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYIyCmcuQno
Although at a starting price of 16k for the hatchback version with automatic, it may be out of your budget.
In that case I would second the recommendations to look at the Mazda3, VW Golf/Rabbit, Honda Fit, as well as the Mini Cooper. They're all quality cars that should still be in good condition lightly used and fit in your price range.
So I go to Carmax for a pricequote to get my floor, and I look at KBB private party and try to be honest about condition, and that's my cieling. I list somewhere between private party value and dealer retail, though I'll definitely list for less then a competing listing. I'm shooting to get between KBB private party and halfway between my floor and cieling. I'll advertise on craigslist cause it's free, but on the same day I put my add in the paper and on auto trader.
Don't discount private sellers just cause they seem to have a high ask, they may just have unrealistic expectations or they may be shit at negotiations/pricing or they may be upsidedown (in that case you're probably not going to reach a deal). If something tickles your fancy, go online and find an enthusiast group where you can find out about maintenance schedules and common problems. Look up the private party value and see what it's worth in a couple different conditions. Then go check it out, evaluate it and if it feels right, make an offer that seems reasonable (minus a few hundred for negotiation) and see if they'll play ball. Even if they don't, be nice, and exchange phone numbers and such. Call them a few weeks later, if they still have the car they might have some seller fatigue and may be more amenable to a deal (they don't want this car anymore, the longer it's unsold the longer they are paying overhead: depreciation, insurance, and advertizing costs).
If you don't feel like you can properly evaluate the condition of a used car, then nevermind. Or you could look into having a mechanic check it out, but know that's a sunk cost. Just wanted to share some perspective from someone who has bought and sold a few cars private party.
Also: new cars are awesome. If you're in it for the long haul (til the wheels fall off) then a little extra on the frontside isn't really that much in exchange for the confidence in knowing you put all the miles and maintenance on it, plus getting the new car experience.
Of course as pointed out above it doesn't even seem like there's anything to lose on new cars. It seems like you could buy a Fit and turn around and sell it for more than you'd pay at the dealership.
I am worried about fitting a double bass into a minicooper or a GTI or Golf, though. If the double bass wouldn't fit, the car is a no-go. They're 6 ft and don't bend at all.
I own a GTI myself and with the seats folded down you're looking at basically a 5' long by 3' wide by 3' tall funky cube all for storage. If you could fit it in the Corolla, I can't imagine it not fitting in a GTI/Golf.
You could bring the double bass to dealerships and seeing if they fit in the trunks. Tell them you're looking for a new car and they'll be happy to oblige, and of course don't have to actually buy anything from them :P
You also might want to check out the Hyundai Elantra Touring. Hyundai's are affordable and have a good reputation now.
Well, except gas mileage. The AWD system does lower it's efficiency. If you see bad weather in your area, though, it's worth it.
Well, think about it, you find a great price, and then you get in the car and hate the sight lines, or the seats, or whatever. You've got to actually be in the car to really evaluate if it's the one for you.
Definitely go for test drives to see what the car is actually like in person. Then once you know the one(s) you want, use online resources to find the right price.
After driving the same car for years on end, you'd might think any new car would be acceptable. You'd be surprised. Even if you aren't some performance obsessed car head, every car has its own unique driving characteristics and feel and it's something that's fairly noticeable when you're out car shopping and test driving lots of different cars. You might end up just hating a car that looked good on paper, or vice versa.
Its a little ridiculous how spacious they feel. Its not just cargo space either... I'm 6'4 and I have plenty of head and pedal room.
As for hatchbacks, the Fit has certainly been well-reviewed. Also you can check your library of course, but I've got the last couple years of Consumer Reports books if you want the records of any models.
The salesmen will hassle you to death, let them know up front you're looking at several different things on several different lots before you make a decision.
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Yeah, the double bass is about 6'3" tall and 2.5 wide at the highest point. And it's not at all like a person -- it's stiff and not bendable at all. And the case adds about 2" all around. Which is why I doubt it would really go into a Golf/GTi or Minicooper easily; I'd have to take down the seat, hope it's completely flat, and then move the passenger seat all the way up. Or keep doing the same thing I'm doing which makes buying something different pretty lame.
Unfortunately bringing it along isn't something I'd do on the first trip, since one of us would have to play chauffeur in the Corolla. And my wife is rather unhappy with sedan-shaped cars, so she'd rather stay with the sedan we have than buy a new one.
Apparently the cheap Versas don't have power windows or power locks, so I am realistically in the 15-16k range still. I do have a couple more models that y'all have reminded or informed me about, though, which is good. I clarified to my wife last night that the problem with hatchback prices is that they're technically more car and seem to be at least a couple thousand more than comparable sedans, which she should keep in mind.
The only car that popped up on a search that was a hatchback and under $10k was an older Focus. Ugh.
You've been looking at a lot of compact hatches. They're in your price range, but to fit a double base you may have to make the passenger seat unusable.
Hell, even if you do know spot on what you want going in, drive a few others just to make sure there isn't some better option you just haven't thought about.
Edit: Also, honestly I wouldn't really recommend a Matrix or Corolla right now. There are much better options. Really Toyota doesn't have anything much out there that sets the world on fire and doesn't have a better model out from a competitor, other than the Tacoma which is probably the only decent small pickup sold by anyone. And the Prius obviously.