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Eviction of an unwelcome guest?
Sheez
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I realize that most of you ANL, but I figured it's an issue I should take to an audience who might've had some experience with these things.
So, here's the situation:
My brother, who has had a hard time living with people lately, recently was invited to come and stay with my wife and I. We're family, and I figured a better location with more prevalent jobs and people would do him some good. We moved into a larger apartment and stipulated that all we expected from him was to stay up on a few chores. There was some mention of this working out as an effective rent.
In short, he's failed to do that spectacularly. He will occasionally do dishes but more often than not they stick around and stink up the place until either I or my wife (both working serious ot) get around to doing them. He's been verbally abusive, has left the place we set aside for him a mess, and generally unpleasant to be around. I am, at this point, at my wits end. We gave him a notice informing him that we would be evicting him on the 18th of this month but that should the situation worsen we would reserve the right to forcibly move up the date. Things've gotten..worse since then. Neither my wife, nor I, have any desire to let him stay a minute longer than it takes to get his belongings together.
However, he is claiming that, according to landlord-tenant law here in Washington, we are required to give him 20 days notice. I've gone over what I can understand of the law, but..well, I'm not sure it's applicable. I don't own the place, and he is not on the lease, nor does there exist a written contract of any sort. Am I incorrect in my interpretation here? What sort of recourse do I have to get this guy out of my place?
So, here's the situation:
My brother, who has had a hard time living with people lately, recently was invited to come and stay with my wife and I. We're family, and I figured a better location with more prevalent jobs and people would do him some good. We moved into a larger apartment and stipulated that all we expected from him was to stay up on a few chores. There was some mention of this working out as an effective rent.
In short, he's failed to do that spectacularly. He will occasionally do dishes but more often than not they stick around and stink up the place until either I or my wife (both working serious ot) get around to doing them. He's been verbally abusive, has left the place we set aside for him a mess, and generally unpleasant to be around. I am, at this point, at my wits end. We gave him a notice informing him that we would be evicting him on the 18th of this month but that should the situation worsen we would reserve the right to forcibly move up the date. Things've gotten..worse since then. Neither my wife, nor I, have any desire to let him stay a minute longer than it takes to get his belongings together.
However, he is claiming that, according to landlord-tenant law here in Washington, we are required to give him 20 days notice. I've gone over what I can understand of the law, but..well, I'm not sure it's applicable. I don't own the place, and he is not on the lease, nor does there exist a written contract of any sort. Am I incorrect in my interpretation here? What sort of recourse do I have to get this guy out of my place?
Sheez on
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and even that's iffy
landlord-tenant only applies to landlords and tenant
you are not his landlord and he is not your tenant
If he won't leave, you can forcibly evict.
+ if his name isn't on any paperwork, and the situation even starts to get out of hand, you can, and should, call the police.
I am a bit concerned that it's going to have to come down to calling the police. They were particularly unhelpful in other cases I've heard from other family members..but then, different county and different officers I suppose. He swings back and forth between almost reasonable and RAAGE, so it's definitely the sort of thing I would like to prevent from going bad. I am going to get in contact with them and see what stance they'd take if I had to call them down.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I lived in a house w/ 4 other people that we all rented. One guy moved his girlfriend in, and at the time no one objected. After 2 months of living there we wanted her out, but according to Berkeley law neither us nor the landlord could ask her to move out w/o notice even though she wasn't paying rent.
You need to learn your local laws as soon as possible, but most counties have advisors specifically to help you with these kinds of situations.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I probably would have laid down the law with my brother sooner, but that's irrelevant.
If it's gotten to the point where you have to kick him out, kick him out.
If he wants to whine about 20 day notice with landlord/tenant agreement, tell him to call the landlord. You're not the landlord.
edit: the thing about laws is that they're tried in court, and courts typically tilt towards those who actually have evidence and can prove their case. Especially in civil cases. In this case, it doesn't sound like you wrote anything down with your brother, he hasn't paid anything, so he probably has no proof that he even lives there currently. IANAL but I've taken law classes and your bro is bluffing.
my thoughts on the situations:
I could not locate where they determined if "agreement" in this definition means a written contract or merely an implied one, but I think you can make a very clear case that there was no contractual agreement related to this dude's tenancy, meaning he has no rights under any tenancy act.
Under Canadian law, I'd be fairly certain that you could get away with kicking him out, though under British Common Law an agreement does not have to be in writing for it to be an agreement. Verbal contracts are equally enforceable, the only problem is proving that the contract exists.
For a contract to be a contract, there would have to be an exchange of something material. His doing the chores might qualify. So you might be required to treat him as a tenant, provided that he could prove that he kept up the chores he agreed to do in exchange for rent.
However, he hasn't.
So he's violated his end of the contract, assuming you're going to go so far as to accept that one even legitimately exists (I'm not so sure it does, to tell the truth).
Since he's violated his end of the contract, you SHOULD be free to terminate the contract, or to sue to do so.
Basically what I'm saying is, get proof that he's failed to hold up his end of the bargain. He's not going to sue because nobody in his position has the resources, the will power, or the energy to do so. If he DID take you to small claims though, and you showed reasonable evidence that he'd failed to uphold his end of the bargain, I can't imagine even a small claims judge ruling that you owe him actual damages for giving him the boot. Small claims courts often are more about arbitration than law, but even in what I'd consider the worst case scenario, you're still probably within your rights to terminate his lease.
Basically it's like if you were a tenant in a normal apartment and when your landlord asked you for the rent you told him/her to fuck off. If you're not paying rent, you're not entitled to live there and oh yes you can be evicted very quickly in most places under those circumstances.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
The area you're looking at is not tenant's rights specifically, but the area where squatter's rights and tenant's rights collide. Shit can get weird, let me tell ya.
I'm skeptical on the grounds that the property was never abandoned; the individual was invited to stay with the other occupants and share the space as a guest. Since there's no disseisor, there shouldn't be an issue of squatting.
This got both more reassuring and potentially more complicated.
I've sent a message via web-form to the local police station, as I'm certain they've dealt with this sort of thing before. Worse comes to worse, I can jog on down and see in person if they have any suggestions or considerations for me.
Depending on your area, he doesn't need any resources to sue because the county will do it on his behalf.
Depending on your area, the property does not have to be vacant to establish squatter's rights. Residency in California can begin to be established after only 10 days.
Edit: Didn't see that you had emailed the police station. That's a great first step. Good luck to finding a good way to end this permanently as soon as possible
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
There is one thing that *COULD* establish residency at your place. Has he put in a change of adress with the US Postal service to recieve his mail at your place? If so, he *MIGHT* be able to claim residency.
There was actually something in the news last year in Spokane about a man who was letting his son live in an apartment of sorts that was part of his unnatached garage. No lease, nothing in writing, just his family trying to help him out. He let his friends move in with him, and then got arrested and went to jail. His friends stuck around. The father kicked them out, and put a padlock on the door after they snuck back in. They were having their mail delivered there, AND because it was a seperate building the cops forced him to take the lock off and give them access to the unit, and even though they weren't paying rent or anything he had to go through the eviction process.
1) moved into a larger space with the understanding he would inhabit it indefinitely,
2) were not collecting rent, but expected service in return for said habitation,
3) have thus far treated him as though he were a resident (giving notice of eviction.)
That does not sound like a "guest" to me, and I suspect it would not sound like one to a court were he inclined to take it that far.
Just because he's not on the lease doesn't mean that he's without legal protection as a tenant, but this depends on your area. It sounds like you are taking the correct steps, but most of your questions could be answered with a call to whoever the enforcement agency of housing regulation is in your area (city, county, auxiliary entity, whatever.)
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Yeah, for everyone claiming that just because the brother isn't on the lease he's not a tenant, big fucking deal. There is more to the law than just having your name on a piece of paper.
And invisiblespaceninja nailed it, depending on the city/county/state laws the brother may have established the place as his residence (residency and being a tenant have fuckall to do with each other) and throwing his shit out onto the street may very well be illegal.
To answer any lingering questions:
We all knew (had previously discussed) this wasn't an indefinite thing. It was more of a get-him-squared-away kind of deal. He wasn't here on a really consistent basis. Between the girls and friends he knew there would regularly be days at a time he was gone..which might've been a point I could have used had it come to him gaining residency due to having a persistent presence here. However, he was here for a lengthy period of time which really just highlights my inability to effectively ditch family when they really deserve it.
As far as the calls that have been suggested..well, the tenant's union here was just recently hosed and have cut their hours drastically. I think they are maybe open to calls for a couple of hours every week, and Tuesdays to boot. Getting in contact with the police would have been a good start, as there is a station within easy walking distance. At the very, very least they could suggest other avenues for me to pursue.
So, things looked good tonight. Hopefully I won't have to come back and update this particular thread anymore. But I do appreciate all of the advice you folks've given, even if some of it wasn't as useful in the sort of immediate short-term I was hoping for
Since you mention rage: check the laws regarding domestic violence in your area if there is any chance this could devolve to any sort of physical contact/violence. I believe some municipalities have laws that automatically implement restraining orders against persons suspected to be at fault for domestic violence.
As others have mentioned, there is a chance that he could be considered a tenant despite the lack rent, his not being on the lease, etc - all depending on laws in you community. *If* he is considered a tenant, and *if* domestic violence occurs (eg, you physically kicked him out) there is a chance of the horror scenario where a restraining order gets slapped on you while he gets to remain in the house due to his 'tenancy'.
Again, this could be a one in a million scenario, but some of the 'zero tolerance' laws can result in entirely unfair situations. Conversely, if things are so bad that a restraining order against him seems appropriate, that would almost certainly trump the eviction process. Caveat: IANAL, and you might be well served talking with a lawyer about this.
It's even simpler than this. Under the statute of frauds, contracts transferring an interest in land (which tenancy is) must be memorialized by a signed writing. No signed writing, no contract.
!AUSTRALIAN ANECDOTE!
When a housemate of mine flipped out about not getting her bond back - before actually moving out and cleaning up after herself - I called our local consumer protection people about the situation, because she was threatening me with legal action.
During the conversation it came up that she hadn't signed a lease, or been added to the lease with my landlord, there was just a verbal understanding, blah, blah, blah. It came up that, in fact, I was her landlord because she was paying me rent - that even though she hadn't signed anything she was required to give me X days notice before leaving, etc, etc.
It was a surprise to me. I'd do your research. Sorry to hear your brother is as crummy/crummier than mine. :P
Edit: For what it's worth, I am totally in Seattle proper.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Yeah. This. Like, yesterday.
Hey, did your landlord know that he was living there when you moved in? You might wanna double-check your lease and see if there's anything pertaining to extended guests... some landlords don't look too kindly residents who don't have a paper trail.
Admittedly, I know nothing about US law or anything, but the idea of legitimising his status in any way, shape, or form - strikes me as really very odd.
As in, if he leaves for any reason, why could you not leave his stuff on the porch?
Now, I know that this is not particularly practical - but as I said before, it seem that the greatest mistake would be in buying into this idea that he is trying to peddle of a legitimate right to be there at all.
You and your girlfriend move out of your separate existing places and move into a mutual one. But her credit sucks so only your name is on the lease. Six months later you want a new girlfriend so you change the locks and put her shit out on the curb while she's at work.
Again, a lot of cities/counties/states have laws making this illegal. It doesn't matter that she isn't on the lease if she has established residency at that location per local laws, tossing her shit on the curb and denying her access to her residence is unlawful.