Brake pads and calipers, haha I wish (update sigh)
Darkewolfe
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
It's time to have my brake pads replaced. I don't currently have a mechanic that I trust to do it for me (so will be using random place like Midas or something), and I definitely don't have the skill or inclination to do it myself. (Nor do I really have the space to do it, as I live in the city and park in a garage where I have to pull in the side mirrors just to fit.)
I do know from prior experience that mechanics will try to upsell you on everything if they can, and am expecting to be told my brake calipers are worn. I've actually put off having the pads done for a little while, so it's not impossible that the calipers have worn down somewhat.
Can anyone provide advice on evaluating whether further brake replacements need to be made, beyond just the pads, so that when I'm inevitably told by a random mechanic that I need to replace both I can do good things for my car without spending too much?
I do know from prior experience that mechanics will try to upsell you on everything if they can, and am expecting to be told my brake calipers are worn. I've actually put off having the pads done for a little while, so it's not impossible that the calipers have worn down somewhat.
Can anyone provide advice on evaluating whether further brake replacements need to be made, beyond just the pads, so that when I'm inevitably told by a random mechanic that I need to replace both I can do good things for my car without spending too much?
What is this I don't even.
Darkewolfe on
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The mechanic is more likely to try to upsell you on rotors. Rotors warp over time and need to be "turned" or shaved down to get rid of warping. There is a minimum that they can be turned down to before they need to be replaced, or if they are warped too badly they will have to be replaced. If you haven't had the brakes replaced before then you should be fine, but if its an older vehicle that has had the rotors turned several times, it may be time to replace. Does the car vibrate when braking? Thats a tell tale sign the rotors are warped...but doesn't necessarily mean they can't be turned.
If you're worried about being taken advantage of, just have the mechanic show you visually what he's recommending and then do alittle research before accepting to replace whatever it may be
I was partially wondering if my layman's eyes would be able to evaluate things regarding the calipers, or now the rotors. Although your suggestion seems to say that the rotors are very unlikely to need anything more than tuning.
What are the odds that a car which has never needed brake service before needs to have both front and read brake pads replaced?
It depends on how mechanically inclined the person is but visually looking at what the mechanic is recommending will help you know what does what in the future.
Depending on the vehicle and how you brake, its definitely possible both sets need to be replaced at the same time but you don't have to replace them at the same time if they aren't needed. Reasons for doing so would be either just to have it done so you know they are both "fresh" or if they are just close enough (e.g. you would have to replace the rear brakes in a couple months anyways). If either set are still good and still have plenty of pad life, there is no reason to replace it.
One other thing the mechanic may recommend is a brake flush. You may look in your manual or online to see what the recommended mileage is for a flush. If you haven't reached that mileage and the fluid still looks good then I would hold off on that. Again you may wish to visually look w/ the tech for your own info, new brake fluid is amber/clear and gets darker/nastier with time. Most the time, going off the recommended mileage for a flush is fine unless its an older vehicle that hasn't been driven much.
I am with others in the mentality that when you change one, you change them all.
That being said, $250 - $300 ($500 - $600) seems very reasonable, especially if it's a newer vehicle which will be more complicated to work on.
It's difficult to see how much pad is left without taking off the wheel. As far as the rotor, you can diagnose that by touch; the more grooves and ridges it has, the worse the condition of it. Ideally it should be smooth, but after ~50,000 miles I would expect it to be pretty ridgy.
It takes quite a bit of time for your ability to stop to fail primarily due to pad life. Most of time (but not always) the owner knows the brakes need replacing but has opted not to replace. Of course there are other failures that can happen that would reduce braking time but talking strictly due to pad life, its a neglect thing.
If the pads have plenty of pad left and you are braking as you should (e.g. gradually braking and not waiting till the last 50ft to brake) then there is no reason to replace. Also not all vehicles use the same ratio of front and back brakes. One set of pads will be more worn than another.
But, if money and time permits, you can definitely replace both sets for peice of mind. But don't be talking into replacement if not needed. This is where people complain they are being taken advantage of. It pays to have a basic understanding of how stuff works
Here is my right rear rotor:
You can't tell in the pic, but there is over 2mm of wear on the edge at it's worst point. If your shit looks like this, replace it. You can't really tell anything about the caliper from the pic, but it's functioning poorly so away it goes
EDIT: Oh and I don't know about your car, but my beetle brakes primarily in the rear, with front being saved for hard braking (which I rarely do!). My front rotors are perfectly clean and shiiiiny after having never been replaced in 100,000 miles.
Check out a brake-specific shop, like Brake Check. They advertise $99 4-pad replacement (more if your car needs fancy pads), add $20 to turn 4 rotors. Call ahead and ask for a parts/labor breakdown. If you do need fancy pads or new rotors buy it yourself from an auto shop and have the brake guys do the rest. If you want to get the flush, ask for a quote for the whole job beforehand and call a couple more places. It'll cost you more when they try to upsell you it when your car is on the lift with no wheels on.
Calipers have a seal that can wear causing it to stick, either not engaging the pad to the disc properly or holding it against the disc causing the pad to burn. When this happens the caliper needs to be rebuilt: disassembled and having the rubber parts inside replaced.
Most common is extremely low pad life hyperextending or blowing out the piston inside the caliper. Like I said before you can also do this if you push on the brakes when there are no pads in the caliper. Basically there isn't anything to stop the piston from coming out passed it maximum, thus blowing the seal and ruining the caliper. I'm not sure if you can fix the seals w/o replacing the entire "housing" but its easiest to replace the entire part. I'm sure somewhere someone has fixed the seals w/ varying degrees of success but that would depend also on the vehicle.
The only other issues I could see would be letting the pads run down so far that the caliper runs into the rotor (that when you start to hear heavy griding). That does far more damage to the rotor then it would the caliper but in extremes, I could see the caliper needing to be replaced if it effects its ability to effectively apply the brakes
The caliper holds the brake pistons/cylinders. Those can get stuck, leak fluid, etc. It also may have guide rods that can stick, interrupting proper operation. And since rebuilding a caliper is not time effective for most people (I.e. Having to hone the cylinder, reinstall the seals, dust boots, etc), most folks just replace the whole thing.
And yeah, OP; get some quotes for getting new pads and rotors, and some for getting your existing rotors turned. You won't know which you need until the car is on the lift. A fluid change would also be good maintenance after nearly 50K miles on the road.
In my experience, if your car has rear drums, however, they will likely be fine for much longer.
I guess I was just thinking in more specific terms; if you have a problem with the one of the pistons, that's a piston problem, not a caliper problem.
Point taken though.
I suspect my car needs it's pads replaced, but I honestly know so little about cars, that I'm just taking a stab in the dark based on the sounds it's making. Whenever I stop, it makes not so much a grinding noise, but something similar like a piece of wet rubber sliding across linoleum. Beyond the noise though, it still brakes normally, and I notice no shaking or other physical signs of problems.
You can tell when you brake. Usually your brake pads will make noises that they didn't make before.
Another way to tell is that you brake pedal has more fade than it did before. What that means is that you have to press the pedal down more and more to come to a stop. Almost all cars have some sort of fade in the brake pedal, but if it starts doing it more, that's a symptom that you will need new pads. It's also a symptom of other things, like your brake line being corroded, but that's often less of a concern.
With most places, they'll do a complete flush out of the brake lines. What you should do is ask them if your brake lines need to be replaced. The brake lines, the non-metal ones that is, are just rubber, and they stretch after some time. It might be a good idea to have those looked at too.
If it's making noises, it's probably time to get it replaced.
Like Ron said, sound is a good indicator as well as how much of the brake you have to apply to come to stop. If you're suspecting a braking issue or haven't had them checked in a long while you may wish to have a brake inspection done. Very few shops charge just for an inspect.
Other symptoms that may require an brake inspection would be vibrations or pulsations when applying the brakes. Vibrations being a possible warped rotor, pulsation being a possible rotor or brake fluid issue. You can also sometimes get a pulling to one side or another when stopping if there is an issue with your brake lines (twisted or gum'd up) or caliper, but that has more to do with the braking system then it does brake pad life.
A side note on noise when stopping (whats called brake squeal). Some brake pads, depending on their quality will squeal more than others. Semi-metallic pads are made of more medal bits then Ceramic. As you brake and wear them down, its essentially metal on metal = more noise but nothing is wrong w/ them.
That said however if you had no noise before, have never changed the brakes, and now hear noise. Might want to check them out
Can you change flush the brake fluid system without taking the brakes/wheels off? I'd rather not pay the labor charges for that again because I delay having the fluid dealt with till I go somewhere cheaper.
The mild vibration is going to be a warped rotor. I can pretty much guarantee that.
There is no timing involved. You press the brake, and hydraulic pressure builds up in the system, causing the pistons on the calipers to clamp the pads down onto the rotors. The harder you push on the pedal, the more pressure is in the system, the more force the calipers put onto the rotors.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/brake.htm
You can flush the brake system without it, but it's recommended you do it when you do the pads, so that everything has the same mileage on it and you know exactly when it's been done.
If you're going to get your pads changed, get your system flushed and replace the brake hoses.
What most shops do is they open a valve, and force fluid through the system. On my car, each wheel has its own brake line, so all four wheels need their valves opened at the same time or else you might end up with old fluid somewhere in the system. Some cars have it so that the fronts have their own set separate from the rear. I can't really think of clear words to describe that better.
To really answer your question, most likely the wheels will need to be removed to get your system flushed.
And for a bit of opinion, I would say let the dealership that you're going to do the whole shebang. When you go to sell your car, having dealership records improves resell value. If you always go to the dealership, you can actually add quite a bit of money to how much you want. If I were in your shoes, I'd have the dealership replace the bad rotor, new brake pads, flush the system and add new brake lines. Yeah, it's going to be expensive, but it'll be done, and you'll have the records to verify that the dealership did it, and usually the dealerships provide a better warranty than the guys on the corner.
But note, that that's my opinion.
Honestly, if you are handy at all, brake jobs aren't that bad to do.
You probably don't need the rotors replaced if you are just noticing squeaking.
Usually on brake pads they will have a little metal clip that arches over by the pad part and will start to make contact when there is 1/8" inch or so of the pad left.
The basic process is
I don't know if you have any mechanic type friends, but usually I'm more than happy to watch someone else do them to make sure they don't miss anything. I helped my wife do hers, since she wanted to learn.
I know it's not a warped rotor. It's only noticeable when the car idles at a certain speed, so I'm pretty positive it's a piston not timing correctly.
I'm going to drive this car until the wheels fall off (which should be at least a decade away), so rather than have the dealership do lots of work for an extra 500-1k, I'm just doing the brakes over there and will spend more time looking for a trustworthy mechanic elsewhere.
Car talk guys, and their reviews for mechanics. I found a real good one going through here. Any mechanic that will try to upsell you just because, needs to die in a fire.
A brake job is easy with basic hand tools, and a flush isn't necessary for 3-4 years/60k miles at the earliest with typical usage. Anybody that tells you differently is more than likely trying to sell you something. If your brake fluid is relatively clear, don't worry about it. DOT 5 fluid needs even less maintainence because it doesn't absorb water.
Turning the rotors is a good idea even if they aren't warped to remove the glazing left behind by the old pads and give the new pads a place to bed in. It's not necessary, though. On some cars it's just as cheap to replace the rotors than pay the labor to get them turned. It's a good idea to check the brakes every 30-40k miles or so. Rear brakes last much longer than front brakes because they only do 10-20% of braking.
Oh, and don't mention "piston timing" to the service advisor, because they will laugh at you.
But I still don't understand how the wheel bearings would be screwed at 47,000 miles. I don't know much, but the general idea I have is that that is way too early.
"Well, the mechanics here are laughing their asses off. The place you took your car to put RS brake pads on your car... "
Pause
Mechanic - "Yeah, I know. We'll give you a discount"
He later showed me the pads which were only 50% "worn". Midas refused to give me a discount or refund saying they put the right pads on my car. So, if your car DOES have different wheel size/brake rotor sizes make absolutely sure they know what model your car is and what pads go on them.
That'd be it, then. The one (1) (single) time I have ever loaned my car to my girlfriend, she hit a pothole hard enough to blow the tire and bend the rim. Had to get a new rim. This was about two months ago, so I'm sure if something was able to do it, that was it.
The good news is a wheel bearing isn't to bad. If it's just a wheel bearing, the parts aren't to bad and the labor isnt either. the stealership is trying to take you to town.
At 47,000 miles you need to at least check pads/rotors for wear. This is a visual inspection only and can be done when the wheel bearing is replaced. If the rotors don't look to badly worn (scratches, rough patches, loose metal shavings, etc) you can hold off on them. If the brake pads have decent depth, leave em alone to. If they look close to the bracket they are mounted on, go ahead and replace em. They are cheap.
Went out of warranty this time last year. Typical, yeah? It's an '05, but since I moved to the city I haven't driven it nearly as much, so it's got a low mileage.
The dealership will probably say something about it not being regular wear and tear, driver caused, etc.
Wheel bearings are one of those things that don't usually go until well in the 150k+ mile range....
Also, I must be the only one who apparently flushes out the brake fluid when I do brakes....
I do that too. Seems a silly thing to cheap out on.
I might look into this dealer "goodwill" thing. Do you get all the service done at the dealer? If so he may be just cutting you a break to keep you coming in. At $600 it's a premium over a good independent shop, but not a huge premium.
Also it could be some kind of known issue with wheel bearings on your model. My Legacy has a warranty extension on its rear bearings (upto 8yrs, 100k miles). That information doesn't come up if you look at the TSB lookup at edmunds. I wouldn't have known if Subaru of America hadn't mailed me the notice, wherein it said they were issuing a TSB for this but it doesn't seem like they have. I'm not sure if this is a case of "silent warranty" or what. It could be that this is a known issue by Mazda and they're offerring some concession on the repair; if that's the case I'd push to have it repaired gratis. Check out forums and enthusiast sites on your particular vehicle.
Hitting a pothole hard enough to blow a tire could very possibly hose a wheel bearing. Jack up your car and wiggle the tire from side to side, if there is any play before the tire actually moves your wheel bearing could be shot.
Take your master cylinder cap off, is your fluid clear? You would be fine to wait on the flush. Just follow the maintenance schedule for your car and you'll be fine.
And no offense but there is a reason a dealer charges more. For instance I work on Fords and Mazdas all day long at the largest F Series dealer in the entire country. We get specialized training in working on certain makes. That specialized training costs money. Who would you rather work on your car. A person trained by the people who made your car or a guy who has some generic auto training.
It's also a good idea to check in some car-specific forums to look for TSBs and recalls. I had a TSB-related inspection performed on my M3 yesterday during a routine service that I wouldn't have known about if not for m3forum.net. The dealer doesn't advertise them, the service advisor told me that if I wouldn't have asked about it it wouldn't have happened, he isn't supposed to just bring it up.