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[WoW]Druids: CLOSED SLIGHTLY EARLY

145791057

Posts

  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Diorinix wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    And shapeshifting isn't the end-all of Druid flavor.

    Guess how much shapeshifting Malfurion did in Warcraft 3?

    WC3 was what...8, 9 years ago? Druids have had forms in each talent tree LONGER than they have gone without. Dec 2006 they rolled out tree form. The game had been out for 2 years at that point. By the time Cataclysm drops, we'll be just shy of 4 years with tree form. It's a more defining aspect of the class than anything else.
    It's a defining aspect for you. I don't like ToL and prefer the old-school resto style.

    I really don't care too much about ToL, but Ghostcrawler's logic about removing it is sound. I'm sure there are other ways to fix it, but this is also a way. And Blizzard does want there to be ONE spec that stays in humanoid.

    GC's logic that something is WRONG with ToL as it currently stands is sound, but removing it I believe is wrong, and so does the majority of dedicated resto druids in the community. It's not just me.

    I've been resto since I rolled in vanilla (stupidly levelled as one, even). If blizzard wants one caster form spec, it's a new development. Hots costing less in tree form, more spirit in tree form, imp. tree form aura, Gift of the Earthmother, etc. all exist as talents because of tree form. Now, they're removing a lot of "passive talents" from all trees. Maybe they're deciding that with these talents no longer there that Tree Form has less tying it to the spec. So instead of replacing these talents with something that makes the spec interesting, they give us a perma-trinket. Which, in some ways, is kinda cool but it changes the theme of the class.

    If that fits their design plan, fine. I won't like it, and I'll probably bitch the whole way through Cataclysm, but it's not something I'm going to quit the game over. I just think that there should have been a more creative solution to this problem.

    Diorinix on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    GC did say that, but it was very non-commital. I'm pretty sure the art dudes are tired of making gear that nobody will see that often.

    You know what's a solution to that (even though it'd probably give the art dept. a massive stroke)? Have the forms show key pieces of the armor - weapons, shoulder armor, helms. Since they're streamlining the tiers to have matching designs, just with different colors of skins, this could be easier than before with the rainbow-of-colors gear in BC and Vanilla. Once you have a certain ilevel shoulder/helm/weapon, it will be displayed on the model in some way. Sticks harnassed to the back of the cat/bear, shoulder armor moulded to size, crescent moon shining in the middle of the forehead, etc...

    Diorinix on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Diorinix wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Diorinix wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    And shapeshifting isn't the end-all of Druid flavor.

    Guess how much shapeshifting Malfurion did in Warcraft 3?

    WC3 was what...8, 9 years ago? Druids have had forms in each talent tree LONGER than they have gone without. Dec 2006 they rolled out tree form. The game had been out for 2 years at that point. By the time Cataclysm drops, we'll be just shy of 4 years with tree form. It's a more defining aspect of the class than anything else.
    It's a defining aspect for you. I don't like ToL and prefer the old-school resto style.

    I really don't care too much about ToL, but Ghostcrawler's logic about removing it is sound. I'm sure there are other ways to fix it, but this is also a way. And Blizzard does want there to be ONE spec that stays in humanoid.

    GC's logic that something is WRONG with ToL as it currently stands is sound, but removing it I believe is wrong, and so does the majority of dedicated resto druids in the community. It's not just me.

    I've been resto since I rolled in vanilla (stupidly levelled as one, even). If blizzard wants one caster form spec, it's a new development. Hots costing less in tree form, more spirit in tree form, imp. tree form aura, Gift of the Earthmother, etc. all exist as talents because of tree form. Now, they're removing a lot of "passive talents" from all trees. Maybe they're deciding that with these talents no longer there that Tree Form has less tying it to the spec. So instead of replacing these talents with something that makes the spec interesting, they give us a perma-trinket. Which, in some ways, is kinda cool but it changes the theme of the class.

    If that fits their design plan, fine. I won't like it, and I'll probably bitch the whole way through Cataclysm, but it's not something I'm going to quit the game over. I just think that there should have been a more creative solution to this problem.

    Can I get a jpeg of a "jump to conclusions map"

    No one has any idea about how ToL will be implemented. Saying it's a "perma-trinket" is a total shot in the dark. It could be that druids go into ToL after hopping 5 times, and typing LOLOL. No. One. Knows.

    No one even knows what it'll do.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • SyrdonSyrdon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Actually, we do have some idea of what it will do. Just not much. To quote what is probably the same paragraph people are bitching about:
    Mechanically, it feels unfair for a druid to have to give up so much offense and utility in order to be just as good at healing as the other classes who are not asked to make that trade. We are exploring the exact benefit the druid gets from Tree of Life. It could strictly be better healing, or it could be that each heal behaves slightly different.
    Go ahead and read that last phrase again, because I know half the posts in the last page or so stem from people not doing it.

    They're changing ToL so that resto druids can do something else while healing without taking a fairly large penalty. They don't know what they're changing it to. It might be a straight buff to healing. There might be no buff to amount healed but your heals gain some sort of extra feature. It has not yet been decided.

    If you're going to whine, and claim to stand for a whole bunch of people you've never met (Diorinix), at least have something concrete to whine about.

    Syrdon on
  • DiorinixDiorinix Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Syrdon wrote: »
    Actually, we do have some idea of what it will do. Just not much. To quote what is probably the same paragraph people are bitching about:
    Mechanically, it feels unfair for a druid to have to give up so much offense and utility in order to be just as good at healing as the other classes who are not asked to make that trade. We are exploring the exact benefit the druid gets from Tree of Life. It could strictly be better healing, or it could be that each heal behaves slightly different.
    Go ahead and read that last phrase again, because I know half the posts in the last page or so stem from people not doing it.

    They're changing ToL so that resto druids can do something else while healing without taking a fairly large penalty. They don't know what they're changing it to. It might be a straight buff to healing. There might be no buff to amount healed but your heals gain some sort of extra feature. It has not yet been decided.

    If you're going to whine, and claim to stand for a whole bunch of people you've never met (Diorinix), at least have something concrete to whine about.


    How about putting that quote in full context, hm?
    Tree of Life is changing from a passive talent to a cooldown-based talent, similar to Metamorphosis. Mechanically, it feels unfair for a druid to have to give up so much offense and utility in order to be just as good at healing as the other classes who are not asked to make that trade. We are exploring the exact benefit the druid gets from Tree of Life. It could strictly be better healing, or it could be that each heal behaves slightly different. You also will not be able to be banished in Tree of Life form (this will probably be true of Metamorphosis as well). Additionally, we would like to update the Tree of Life model so that it feels more exciting when you do decide to go into that form. Our feeling is that druids rarely actually get to show off their armor, so it would be nice to have at least one spec that looked like a night elf or tauren (and soon troll or worgen) for most of the time.

    It says right there - Tree of Life is changing from a passive talent to a cooldown based talent, similar to metamorphosis. The mechanics of what the cooldown does is what's speculative.

    As for speaking for what others think and believe - go read any resto-druid related blog and read the responses. Check out the wow forums where a larger group of druids are speaking out AGAINST losing tree form versus the ones who flat out think it sucks.

    I'm trying to have a rational discussion for keeping tree form in game. I've acknowledged that there are some serious issues with its current incarnation and that changes need to be made. I've also been trying to encourage others to discuss other kinds of solutions than cooldown based (ie trinket proc) removal.

    Maybe you should be the one to read before making holier-than-thou statements.

    Diorinix on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmm....toasty.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The WoW forums are full of whiners and should never be taken as an indication of anything.


    Though someone did have the best quote ever to describe the reactions to the previews:



    Change: scaring people since forever

    shryke on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Syrdon wrote: »
    Actually, we do have some idea of what it will do. Just not much. To quote what is probably the same paragraph people are bitching about:
    Mechanically, it feels unfair for a druid to have to give up so much offense and utility in order to be just as good at healing as the other classes who are not asked to make that trade. We are exploring the exact benefit the druid gets from Tree of Life. It could strictly be better healing, or it could be that each heal behaves slightly different.
    Go ahead and read that last phrase again, because I know half the posts in the last page or so stem from people not doing it.

    They're changing ToL so that resto druids can do something else while healing without taking a fairly large penalty. They don't know what they're changing it to. It might be a straight buff to healing. There might be no buff to amount healed but your heals gain some sort of extra feature. It has not yet been decided.

    If you're going to whine, and claim to stand for a whole bunch of people you've never met (Diorinix), at least have something concrete to whine about.

    I get what you're saying man (and I agree) but we really don't have any idea of what's gonna happen when it all shakes out.

    All this reactionary "dey took our trees!" bullshit is ridiculous. But, hey, WoW.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    A majority of people posting on the forums dislike the change. Unhappy people tend to be motivated to speak up, so that argument doesn't hold water. Even if a majority did hate it, WoW is not a democracy.

    Calling Tree a trinket is selling it short. Cooldowns are way more powerful and interesting than tinkets just by the nature of being designed for a specific class.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    GC just made a small comment about Mark becoming Kings. Probably a merging of the the two, but it'd finally spread to another class.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Complaining about being able to root/cyclone/etc with no downside besides not looking like a shitty old tree is stupid.

    I would look to see ToL as an offensive cooldown where the druid turns into a massive Ent and starts smashing heads together. You don't need a boost to healing if you stop incoming raid damage by killing shit.

    Bikkstah on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Go back in time and see people complaining about tree when it was first added and people complaining about tree when they spruced it up for Wotlk and now people are complaining when it's going to be taken away. The internet's full of a vocal minority mainly because people who don't give a shit don't post.

    Here's some of my guesses of things they could make the tree cooldown do (these aren't necessarily exclusive from each other either, mix and match):
    -Make you stationary but decrease incoming damage/increase armor
    -Make all of your Direct Heals into HoTs
    -Make all of your HoTs into instant direct heals
    -Make all of your heals apply a (possibly stacking) buff that does something (reduce damage, increase healing, etc)
    -Make all of your HoTs apply a (possibly stacking) buff that does something (reduce damage, increase healing, etc)
    -Give off an aura that does something (reduce damage, increase healing, etc)
    -Make your HoTs jump from person to person like 4pT10
    -Make your direct heals apply a HoT
    -Make your direct heals splash to nearby people
    -Increase the duration of your HoTs
    -Become immune to heals (not damage) and your heals use your HP instead of your Mana

    There's a ton of different things they could do with tree that'd be useful in cooldown format that isn't "hay it's a trinket!".

    Opty on
  • BiffoniacusBiffoniacus Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Until the number of people complaining about the loss of a permanent tree form exceeds half the people currently playing resto druids, you cannot make the claim that the majority opposes the change. Being extremely vocal does not make a minority of complainers magically become the majority of people affected, and claiming to speak for the majority does not make it so.

    Every healing class is getting new spells for cataclysm, except for druids, because they thought druids already had enough healing spells to fit every niche. They wanted to give resto druids something new to click, and they'd been planning on making one of the three talent trees stay in caster form anyway. The logical solution therefore was to make tree form something temporary that's activated during combat, and add interesting new abilities to it. All the old ToL abilities will be turned into always-active-regardless-of-form so you actually don't lose anything at all. You can cast any spells you want without losing your ToL buffs now, plus you get something new and interesting rather than just another healing spell to fit a certain niche. You may be bitching now, but once you actually get to see what it does you'll probably be praising the developers' wisdom and creativity.

    Just a few more ideas for what ToL will do:
    -All of your healing spells will proc Efflorescence as described for Regrowth crits
    -All raid members will benefit from your Barkskin spell (crossing my fingers for this one)
    -Your other CDs will be refreshed (Tranquility, Nature's Swiftness, Innervate, Barkskin)

    Biffoniacus on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    See all those ideas sound cool.

    If Blizzard makes it "While in tree form, your heals are 30% stronger" then I'll start bitching. Because not only is that lazy, it's just boring.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    I was thinking that Tree of Life would full your mana bar to 250% and it's active until it runs out. Until then, any healing spell cast uses your mana instead of the caster's. You cast your own spells as normal, but they're free. Once it ends you return to whatever your mana was before. Give it a thirty second maximum duration and have it root or slow you to prevent it from being too crazy in PvP.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • CelianCelian Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Sorry for veering off topic, but does anyone use Rawr for Bear? I was thrown back into the MT seat after being DPS for months... and the model looks very odd.

    It puts Seal of Many Mouths with about twice as much mitigation points as Devium's Eternally Cold Ring. I find it hard to believe my survivability will be that much better if I roll on a DPS items. Yeah it has a lot of agility... but man. Hell, it lists the DPS agility cloak from ToC Insanity Tribute as one of the best tanking cloaks.

    It all seems very odd to me.

    Celian on
    PSN: BenTheFrenchy || Xbox: TheCanuck || Battle.Net: Celian#1956 || the100.io Pax Group
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    It's probably looking at threat as well as mitigation. You can set it for avoidance, effective health, threat and so forth if you wish.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • ArkasArkas Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    RE: Tree things

    I feel like all you people that are pro-change play tauren. Personally I think my night elf is ugly (and I didn't even roll a male - that'd be way worse). Shoulder armor usually sucks, and I'm either wearing a boring skirt or leggings. Most boots out there seem to recycle the same old 'Yarr swashbuckler!' model, which is also disproportionate and not aesthetically pleasing in the least. I mean, let's be honest - WoW is not the most popular MMO for its graphic quality.

    However, tree form is stylized, funny, and pulls of a solid look with the poly limit. Not only do I love using it to not have to stare at my character outside of Dalaran, but I love it for its goofy expressions. My character is cowering in terror as a tree? Awesome! I just got impaled? Sweet, look at my little tree dude dangling there all funny. I am entertained!

    I played a NE Hunter for all of classic. I am sick of night elves. But as a NE druid, I don't feel like I'm playing a night elf because I never see the model. And I like it that way.

    TLDR; Minor glyph plz.

    Arkas on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Race change to Worgen.

    reVerse on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    I hear other races have more than one casting animation. How delightful that would be.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • tehmarkentehmarken BrooklynRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    My little idea for tree-form as a spell:

    Druid turns into a tree thing, and gets rooted. An AoE centered on them works like Tranquility, and flowers and shit also grow up in the effected area, like 20yd radius. Let it be a very constant HoT, like 100hp every 0.1sec for 15 seconds. After 15sec, druid's back to normal. (I pulled those numbers out of my ass, but healing 15k over 15sec on every raid member within 20yd seems powerful enough to be like 5min cooldown).

    But for me, all that really matters is what worgen druids are gonna look like in bear/cat/moonkin.

    tehmarken on
  • MonstyMonsty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I can't wait to change my cow into a troll babe(hey, there's one face that looks okay). Going from a horned black lion to a tusked blue or green tiger will be like early Christmas.

    Monsty on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    I don't mind male taurens, but I got bored and went female. Then I realized that female tauren always have their mouth slightly cracked open. They look like idiotic muppets and it bugs the hell out of me.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • ArkasArkas Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    As dumb as night elves look, shadowmeld is so damn handy.

    I mean, shadowmeld+flight form, obviously. But soloing old instances, and you accidentally pull a pack of stuff that'd take 5 minutes to kill? No problem! Just feign d--SHADOWMELD.

    I just don't see how a third sprint is really gonna beat that. But I may yet be swayed by worgen graphics - not only have they not released the cat and bear forms, they haven't released the female form either.
    At least, I'm pretty sure they didn't. Did we decide the pig-tailed wolf in a dress was in fact [strike]grandma[/strike] a male caster?

    Arkas on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    They haven't released female forms yet. You'll know when they do because the internet will flood with furry porn for that day.

    Opty on
  • MutilateMutilate Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So I will be picking WoW back up in a few weeks. Have not played in about a year and a half and will be playing my Druid. She is 73ish at the moment. I believe I left her as Resto/Boomkin. Has anything really changed in the past year that I should be aware of?

    Mutilate on
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Well, I suppose my girlfriend is part of a non-vocal minority (majority?) that don't want to lose Tree Form. When I told her about the change, she was pretty upset.

    On the flip side, I stopped playing resto in BC when dreamstate died and I HAD to use tree form. I hated it (and still would if I had to use it. Now I'm feral dps/ feral tank).

    Anyway, my point is that just because people don't care enough to post on the forums about it, does not mean that they don't agree with people that do. A lot of resto druids are NOT going to like this change.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And a lot of them ARE going to like this change.

    reVerse on
  • rtylershawrtylershaw Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'm looking forward to the change. Tree form stopped being interesting for me some time ago. If the only reason I have to shapeshift in order to cast healing spells as well as everybody else is "because druids shapeshift" ... well, I can understand why the developers think they can improve on that.

    Hopefully the new mechanic will be interesting and fun to play. In my mind, until there's a beta that proves their ideas are awful, this development team has earned the benefit of the doubt.

    On the other hand, I will be leveling a priest or shaman as well in case they crap the bed.

    rtylershaw on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Mutilate wrote: »
    So I will be picking WoW back up in a few weeks. Have not played in about a year and a half and will be playing my Druid. She is 73ish at the moment. I believe I left her as Resto/Boomkin. Has anything really changed in the past year that I should be aware of?

    WoW... WoW never changes.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • CaedereCaedere S'no regrets BIRDIESRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Opty wrote: »
    They haven't released female forms yet. You'll know when they do because the internet will flood with furry porn for that day.

    There's actually a bunch out there already, despite the lack of official models. D:

    Caedere on
    FWnykYl.jpg
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    See all those ideas sound cool.

    If Blizzard makes it "While in tree form, your heals are 30% stronger" then I'll start bitching. Because not only is that lazy, it's just boring.

    Agreed, and very reasonable.

    Bigity on
  • MutilateMutilate Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Mutilate wrote: »
    So I will be picking WoW back up in a few weeks. Have not played in about a year and a half and will be playing my Druid. She is 73ish at the moment. I believe I left her as Resto/Boomkin. Has anything really changed in the past year that I should be aware of?

    WoW... WoW never changes.

    Is healing any more varied than it was before? I stopped just before the cooldown on Wild Growth. I am guessing nothing has really changed besides that.

    Mutilate on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    Caedere wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    They haven't released female forms yet. You'll know when they do because the internet will flood with furry porn for that day.
    There's actually a bunch out there already, despite the lack of official models. D:
    Don't give me that dee colon, Mr. Sig-is-probably-Malygos-fucking-Deathwing.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Diorinix wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    Diorinix wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    Diorinix wrote: »
    That the resto form doesn't provide a creative enough change to gameplay isn't the fault of the concept. It's a flaw in design. I think balance suffers a little in the same way, but the fix would be the same. Make the forms MEAN something like how the feral forms mean something. Going back to your argument that removing the dps spells from your abilities list whilst in tree form is boring, remember that a healer's job is to heal 1st. If you're so overgearing the content that you have time to shift and lolwrath or lolstarfire, you're not really being challenged.
    There are far more offensive abilities than wrath and starfire that are locked out in tree form.

    As it is, you auto-shift when you cast a spell outside of your "form" anyway, so it's not like you're locked out.
    But shifting back uses extra GCDs and mana, so you're at a disadvantage doing so.

    And a spriest dropping shadow form to heal has to spend a gcd to go back to face melting. And the bear who battle rezzes between Putricide phases has to spend a gcd to get back to mauling.

    These mechanics are built for a reason. We can't all have 71/71/71 point talent trees.
    Shadow priests aren't healers. Your comparison fails. Chicken form is the equivalent to shadow form. And I also already discussed bear/cat and how those don't compare either. Apple and orange more, please.

    Your last sentence is just nonsense as well and doesn't have to do with anything anyone is saying.

    forty on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Arkas wrote: »
    RE: Tree things

    I feel like all you people that are pro-change play tauren.
    What kind of logic is that? My tauren is huge and ugly and I don't care to look at him, but I recognize the value of not having my spell options be limited when I'm healing.

    Also, you talk about how boots look? Tauren don't even wear them.

    forty on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I play a male Nelf and I hate Worgen, but I still like the TOL change.

    edit: because we get awesome tier sets

    815165 on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    30-minute cooldown on Rebirth comin' back!

    forty on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2010
    I just want a group thorns spell for PvP.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • DranythDranyth Surf ColoradoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Caedere wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    They haven't released female forms yet. You'll know when they do because the internet will flood with furry porn for that day.
    There's actually a bunch out there already, despite the lack of official models. D:
    Don't give me that dee colon, Mr. Sig-is-probably-Malygos-fucking-Deathwing.

    Well, at least someone had the same thought I did when I saw that response with that avatar/sig... and I was going to ask if it was what it looks like it is, but I hoped not.

    Dranyth on
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dranyth wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Caedere wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    They haven't released female forms yet. You'll know when they do because the internet will flood with furry porn for that day.
    There's actually a bunch out there already, despite the lack of official models. D:
    Don't give me that dee colon, Mr. Sig-is-probably-Malygos-fucking-Deathwing.

    Well, at least someone had the same thought I did when I saw that response with that avatar/sig... and I was going to ask if it was what it looks like it is, but I hoped not.

    That's just Caedere's bag.

    Naphtali on
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This discussion has been closed.