As far as the origins of the phrase space marines, its roots go back to science fiction in the early portion of the 20th century, although probably the most iconic instance of them was the guys in Starship Troopers. As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
SPACE MARINES comes from the fact that the marines were never ment to be planet bound. In one of the HH books it mentions how they were intended to be constantly on guard against the enemys of humanity so that ment moving all over the imperium and leaving the guarding to the IMPERIAL GUARD while they acted as a fast response force.
Why do SM's use the bolter? well its as easy to make as the lasgun and its more powerful then the las gun where every other more powerful small weapon is very hard to make even during the HH times. In one of the HH novels they mention how most of their power weapons came from giant ass stock piles that the AM found and that newly made power weapons were absolute shit in comparison. The power fist is an exception since it was reverse engineered from an alien weapon during the early crusade times. Another exception is units that came from terra because they actually had better tech then the AM at one time but once they were allies the AM looted the master artisans from terra.
This is why the custodians are better equipped then SM's because they actually got badass non crazy tech dudes in the emperors palace which means power weapons and stealth tech galore.
actually the imperial guard didn't exist until after the heresy, it was originally the imperial army. the guard was created as part of the split between the army/navy portions of the imperial military. their original job was to perform mop up operations and provide garrisons for worlds that had already been defeated by the marines, but later on they were also called into frontline duty as the scope of operations expanded.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
I should probably note that I was mostly thinking pre-heresy, when the guard was really the army. At that point in time the astartes were the pointy end of the spear. After the heresy things get more complicated because there are at least 2 groups competing for every role in the imperium and no one really trusts anyone to do anything right anymore.
As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
that's... not how the fluff ever describes it? the marines are the tip of the spear, the guard is the rest of the spearhead, the shaft, and the arm behind the thrust.
As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
that's... not how the fluff ever describes it? the marines are the tip of the spear, the guard is the rest of the spearhead, the shaft, and the arm behind the thrust.
I think it varies a lot from chapter to chapter, too. Each chapter has its own doctrine and specialty and they vary a lot in roster size and how good their equipment is. IIRC, the Ultramarines were an absolutely massive chapter that would have had enough soldiers, spaceships, and vehicles to conduct their own fullscale war. Before the Tyranids got all up in their grill, anyway.
The IG varies a lot, too...sometimes they fill the role of meatshield brigades made up of conscripts, other times they're elite squads of crack troops that may have fought in dozens of battles on as many worlds. Of course, there's billions and billions of soldiers in the IG so casualties aren't that big of a deal.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
that's... not how the fluff ever describes it? the marines are the tip of the spear, the guard is the rest of the spearhead, the shaft, and the arm behind the thrust.
I always got the impression Space Marines excelled at surgical strikes, not being the tip of the spear charging into a huge meat grinder to try and break a line open. That would just get a lot of Space marines killed.
My general impression (fluff varies) is that Marines after the heresy are mostly used for high priority targets and surgical strikes. They don't have the numbers to be the tip of the spear anymore,. That's what you usually use the Imperial Guard for, since they are basically endless in number
But for the high priority targets and emergencies, I can see Space Marines leading the charge
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
That reminds me, MAKO's are probably the second most badass fictional group in sci-fi.
Why they ever disbanded them in the Star Trek verse is beyond me. Those dudes literally kicked the asses of every villain in that Star Trek series. Hell, most of the time, they were more effective then the main characters when it came to fixing problems.
I mean, in one episode you've literally got the captain and his bridge bunny debating with techno-babble on how to deal with the alien villains of the week, and here's this seasoned soldier standing off to the side, scowling, and you can just tell he's thinking "Just shoot the bastards!". And he does. And it works, like ninety percent of the time.
Then again, "Crazy awesome space marines blow the crap out of everything with phasers for fourty-five minutes" might not have made for a good long-running TV series.
I always liked the separation of allegiance in the Imperium. I cannot find a source but don't the Astartes only pledge allegiance to the Emperor and not the Imperium?
And the Mechanicum only serve because they see the Emperor as an aspect of the Machine God? Or at least an embodiment of knowledge?
Sorry to pose question as if I am making a point but I cannot confirm these things through the wiki or the lexicon.
Yes Skanner, the Astartes state in several books that they are not loyal to the Imperium proper, only to the Emperor. One of the best examples of this is in Helsreach, when Grimaldus explains where his loyalties lie, and why everyone else should shut the hell up and listen to him.
Titanicus also showed how the Mechanicum operates, and how the point of the Emperor being the Omnisiah or not is hotly debated and very important to the stability of the Imperium.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
I was looking at Titanicus the other day. That is an Abnett book yes? I love the Gaunts Ghost series so I will have a go at it when I finish the Horus Heresy series.
That is one of the things i enjoy about the universe. It is fairly well detailed but leaves enough space for some authors to have fun with it. A good example is the Phantine air force. Typically the Imperial Navy handles all air asset but due to the environmental makeup of their homeworld they are the only Imperial Guard squadron. Fun stuff.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
As far as the origins go, marines have pretty much always been the force used to kick open the door and open things up for the occupation force (ie: the imperial guard) so the addition of space to the phrase for marines in space is, well, kinda natural.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
that's... not how the fluff ever describes it? the marines are the tip of the spear, the guard is the rest of the spearhead, the shaft, and the arm behind the thrust.
I always got the impression Space Marines excelled at surgical strikes, not being the tip of the spear charging into a huge meat grinder to try and break a line open. That would just get a lot of Space marines killed.
You're right, they're not. I think you just don't understand the analogy. The tip of the spear in this case doesn't mean the first one into the front lines to get shot at.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Aren't Space Marines presented as exponentially more powerful in the books/fluff as they are in the games? For balance reasons?
Regular non lore popular SM chapters, such as ones players invent, are not hard to kill in terms of stats, it's more a luck of the draw and tactics thing like usual. Some SM chapters have special rules related to lore that can be employed but on the whole they are just good as an all round small fighting force.
Chaos Space Marines on the other hand, are generally much harder nuts to crack, especially Khornites and Plague Marines. I hate em.
I wish someone could tell me about what a space marine is and what his really neet gun is, also what is the origin of the name and do Fruity Pebbles make space marine poop green?? Whoever knows the most and can display that knowledge in a giant boring ass manuscript format in a discussion about the mmo WIIIINNNNSSSS!!!
The IG varies a lot, too...sometimes they fill the role of meatshield brigades made up of conscripts, other times they're elite squads of crack troops that may have fought in dozens of battles on as many worlds. Of course, there's billions and billions of soldiers in the IG so casualties aren't that big of a deal.
The IG are whatever you want them to be, or need to be for fluff purposes. Like you said, they range from conscript militias armed with bolt-action rifles to elite airborne troops more akin to the Colonial Marines in Aliens.
The Krieg IG have always been my favorite.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
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Wikipedia has some really brief coverage of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine
edit: Thanks Loki by the way, that actually did nicely address my comments. Apparently I missed some bits.
SPACE MARINES comes from the fact that the marines were never ment to be planet bound. In one of the HH books it mentions how they were intended to be constantly on guard against the enemys of humanity so that ment moving all over the imperium and leaving the guarding to the IMPERIAL GUARD while they acted as a fast response force.
Why do SM's use the bolter? well its as easy to make as the lasgun and its more powerful then the las gun where every other more powerful small weapon is very hard to make even during the HH times. In one of the HH novels they mention how most of their power weapons came from giant ass stock piles that the AM found and that newly made power weapons were absolute shit in comparison. The power fist is an exception since it was reverse engineered from an alien weapon during the early crusade times. Another exception is units that came from terra because they actually had better tech then the AM at one time but once they were allies the AM looted the master artisans from terra.
This is why the custodians are better equipped then SM's because they actually got badass non crazy tech dudes in the emperors palace which means power weapons and stealth tech galore.
The thing is, that's generally what the Guard do as well. They're the hammer, Space Marines are a small, elite, fast response force. You send the Guard to kick the door in.
that's... not how the fluff ever describes it? the marines are the tip of the spear, the guard is the rest of the spearhead, the shaft, and the arm behind the thrust.
I think it varies a lot from chapter to chapter, too. Each chapter has its own doctrine and specialty and they vary a lot in roster size and how good their equipment is. IIRC, the Ultramarines were an absolutely massive chapter that would have had enough soldiers, spaceships, and vehicles to conduct their own fullscale war. Before the Tyranids got all up in their grill, anyway.
The IG varies a lot, too...sometimes they fill the role of meatshield brigades made up of conscripts, other times they're elite squads of crack troops that may have fought in dozens of battles on as many worlds. Of course, there's billions and billions of soldiers in the IG so casualties aren't that big of a deal.
I always got the impression Space Marines excelled at surgical strikes, not being the tip of the spear charging into a huge meat grinder to try and break a line open. That would just get a lot of Space marines killed.
But for the high priority targets and emergencies, I can see Space Marines leading the charge
I'm sure I've missed others. What were the marines from Enterprise called? MAKOs or something?
All those could be considered "space marines" even if the term "marine" isn't stated right out.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Why they ever disbanded them in the Star Trek verse is beyond me. Those dudes literally kicked the asses of every villain in that Star Trek series. Hell, most of the time, they were more effective then the main characters when it came to fixing problems.
I mean, in one episode you've literally got the captain and his bridge bunny debating with techno-babble on how to deal with the alien villains of the week, and here's this seasoned soldier standing off to the side, scowling, and you can just tell he's thinking "Just shoot the bastards!". And he does. And it works, like ninety percent of the time.
Then again, "Crazy awesome space marines blow the crap out of everything with phasers for fourty-five minutes" might not have made for a good long-running TV series.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
And the Mechanicum only serve because they see the Emperor as an aspect of the Machine God? Or at least an embodiment of knowledge?
Sorry to pose question as if I am making a point but I cannot confirm these things through the wiki or the lexicon.
Titanicus also showed how the Mechanicum operates, and how the point of the Emperor being the Omnisiah or not is hotly debated and very important to the stability of the Imperium.
That is one of the things i enjoy about the universe. It is fairly well detailed but leaves enough space for some authors to have fun with it. A good example is the Phantine air force. Typically the Imperial Navy handles all air asset but due to the environmental makeup of their homeworld they are the only Imperial Guard squadron. Fun stuff.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
You're right, they're not. I think you just don't understand the analogy. The tip of the spear in this case doesn't mean the first one into the front lines to get shot at.
Regular non lore popular SM chapters, such as ones players invent, are not hard to kill in terms of stats, it's more a luck of the draw and tactics thing like usual. Some SM chapters have special rules related to lore that can be employed but on the whole they are just good as an all round small fighting force.
Chaos Space Marines on the other hand, are generally much harder nuts to crack, especially Khornites and Plague Marines. I hate em.
The Krieg IG have always been my favorite.
Rigorous Scholarship