A/V Success! Now trying to extend my KBM reach!

Synthesis

Okay, I'm very much in the dark in this area, so I'm seeking advice.

Basically, I have a PC with DVI video output (a pair of 8800GT video cards), and I have a very nice 37LG50 HDTV with component and HDMI inputs. I figure a DVI to HDMI cable will likely do the trick getting video from my PC to my TV.

Unfortunately, I'm unclear how I'll be getting audio to the HDMI mode without some kind of expensive merger (that I'm not sure exists). What I'd like to do is eighth-inch headphone jack to RCA input adapter, unfortunately, I have no idea whether or not I'd get the audio to the correct HDMI video channel (besides guessing and hoping). The audio inputs aren't next to the HDMI inputs, so I don't really have a way of...guessing.

Is there something obvious I'm overlooking? Or am I just stuck with my model TV, and have to resort to a D-Sub and audio connection? Or, conversely, cough up the money for a small home stereo and use an HDMI to DVI.

Jeltz

Try using HDMI 1 or 2 plus the VGA audio input. These inputs are all labeled with "DVI", so they might do exactly what you're looking for. (See attached image)

If that doesn't work, you'll have to fall back to component or VGA. They can both provide a 1080p picture, it may just be a little less sharp than a DVI or HDMI picture.

Synthesis

Much appreciated. I could have sworn component only went to 1080i......though that might be tied to my video card?

EDIT: Ah, Jeltz, looks like you were correct, the RGB/DVI audio works for both HDMI 1 and 2 (potentially HDMI 3). So I think all I need is a DVI to HDMI (I think that goes up to 1080p with my 8800GT). Well, to test anyway. If they both work, I need 50 ft of both cables....and I can only speculate what kind of loss/noise I'll get at that distance for DVI to HDMI (apparently, VGA gets less loss?).

chasm

Component is capable of 1080p...it mainly depends on whether the TV supports it or not.

And when it comes to cables, go with Monoprice.

Synthesis

I know my TV supports 1080p over component (mostly because it's doing that with my Xbox 360 right now, I'm using a launch Xbox 360 with no HDMI, but it does put out 1080p).

That being said, since I now know which audio input works for the HDMI channels, I think I'll try HDMI to DVI....unless the noise/loss rate for Component is significantly better over long distances (I'm going to need somewhere between 30 and 50 feet, I expect).

Jeltz

HDMI/DVI is a digital medium, so there will be no signal noise. Either the signal get is transferred perfectly, or there is no signal at all. Component and VGA are analog, so they may get some noise in long cable runs.

30-50 feet may be pushing the limits of the medium though. According to the wikipedia article, a high quality (category 2) cable should work, but there's always some variation in different devices. If you find that you can't get a reliable signal with a single cable, you can get a powered HDMI extender to amplify the signal. Have a look at these wikipedia articles: [1] [2]

ack

my video card sends sound through the hdmi cable apparently i was like "whaaaat"

Synthesis

ack wrote: »

my video card sends sound through the hdmi cable apparently i was like "whaaaat"

Yeah, apparently the new ATi video cards do that. So do some of the Nvidia ones, though its less common. Neither of my cards have HDMI out presently.

Jeltz wrote: »

HDMI/DVI is a digital medium, so there will be no signal noise. Either the signal get is transferred perfectly, or there is no signal at all. Component and VGA are analog, so they may get some noise in long cable runs.

30-50 feet may be pushing the limits of the medium though. According to the wikipedia article, a high quality (category 2) cable should work, but there's always some variation in different devices. If you find that you can't get a reliable signal with a single cable, you can get a powered HDMI extender to amplify the signal. Have a look at these wikipedia articles: [1] [2]

Yeah, this is what I was worried about too. Apparently, though, if I get a 24 AWG capable, it'll carry the signal through the distance (though I also need to hope my video card has enough power to do it). 50 feet cables are actually quite common, but you'd want either 22 AWG or 24 AWG at that length, not 28 AWG, apparently.

EliteLamer

I hear getting the new video cards to send sound over hdmi is a bitch. Atleast that is what i read for my 9800 GTX +

Scrublet

I know in Win7 it's not supposed to be that hard, the Sound Device thing (whatever it's called in this OS) has a list of devices and assuming your drivers are installed, the video card should be listed as an output.

What is not clear to me is what the best solution for GENERATING the sound is at that point. I know you can't take something like an X-Fi, have it do the processing, and THEN send it over the video card. It has to go out the sound card at that point. I don't have any knowledge about how this works with integrated.

Synthesis

Synthesis wrote: »

Jeltz wrote: »

HDMI/DVI is a digital medium, so there will be no signal noise. Either the signal get is transferred perfectly, or there is no signal at all. Component and VGA are analog, so they may get some noise in long cable runs.

30-50 feet may be pushing the limits of the medium though. According to the wikipedia article, a high quality (category 2) cable should work, but there's always some variation in different devices. If you find that you can't get a reliable signal with a single cable, you can get a powered HDMI extender to amplify the signal. Have a look at these wikipedia articles: [1] [2]

Yeah, this is what I was worried about too. Apparently, though, if I get a 24 AWG capable, it'll carry the signal through the distance (though I also need to hope my video card has enough power to do it). 50 feet cables are actually quite common, but you'd want either 22 AWG or 24 AWG at that length, not 28 AWG, apparently.

Okay, I did a measurement, and I will indeed need 40 feet (minimum) of cable for both audio and video. So, I'm going to settle on 50 feet most likely.

Audio wise, it's pretty cheap (and apparently, you don't need to worry about the same power/quality needs for audio). Video wise, I'll probably go for either this from Monoprice or this from Amazon. If AWG is important, which it seems like, I may have no choice but to grab the one from Monoprice and pay the additional $30 (whew).

For 3.5 mm audio, I'll probably just buy this. Audio is apparently less sensitive.

Jeltz

Looks good. If you want to err on the side of caution, you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter plus a 50 ft HDMI-HDMI cable instead. In that case you won't have to replace the expensive 50 ft cable if it turns out that you need a HDMI extender. It'll probably work fine either way though, good luck!

Synthesis

Jeltz wrote: »

Looks good. If you want to err on the side of caution, you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter plus a 50 ft HDMI-HDMI cable instead. In that case you won't have to replace the expensive 50 ft cable if it turns out that you need a HDMI extender. It'll probably work fine either way though, good luck!

Much appreciated for your help, Jeltz. Your wording confuses me a little....basically, you're recommending I get a 50 ft HDMI cable and a adapter dongle thingy, rather than a very long HDMI to DVI cable, in the event that I one day have an HDMI output card? Because as it stands, my PC doesn't have any HDMI outputs (though, weirdly enough, the Sound device manager says there's one), so I'm not sure what else I'd need one for.

That seems like a good idea, but I'm afraid that I'll get some corruption/distortion with an adapter (wouldn't be the first time, unfortunately).

On a side note, I'm now almost completely certain my EVGA 800GT can not output sound over DVI, in part because it lacks the small white port on the card itself that facilitates that. Or something.

EliteLamer

Hey synthesis it sounds like we are doing the same thing. When I move next year I want to have my computer in my room but run a cable to the 60 inch in the family room. Are you planing to play video games on the screen in the other room too?

Jeltz

Synthesis wrote: »

Jeltz wrote: »

Looks good. If you want to err on the side of caution, you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter plus a 50 ft HDMI-HDMI cable instead. In that case you won't have to replace the expensive 50 ft cable if it turns out that you need a HDMI extender. It'll probably work fine either way though, good luck!

Much appreciated for your help, Jeltz. Your wording confuses me a little....basically, you're recommending I get a 50 ft HDMI cable and a adapter dongle thingy, rather than a very long HDMI to DVI cable, in the event that I one day have an HDMI output card?

No, I meant in the event that you don't get a reliable signal through your 50 ft cable. If that should happen, you could get an HDMI extender (basically a signal amplifier).

I believe these extenders typically come with only HDMI connectors, which means you would have to replace your DVI-HDMI cable with a HDMI-HDMI one. As the 50 ft video cable is probably the most expensive part of your new cable run, you might want to avoid potentially having to replace it with another one.

You're right though, using an adapter plug plus a cable is not quite as good signal quality wise, so it's a bit of a gamble either way.

Synthesis

Ah, I follow you now. You've got a good point, though given the risks of using an adapter with and without an HDMI extender, I'm a little wary (especially since the good extenders seem to run you about $50). If I had a card that already output in HDMI, this wouldn't be such a problem, but honestly, maybe I'm better off just returning the cables if my signal strength isn't enough, and then trying it that way. Monoprice seems to have a 21 day money-back guarantee, which I think is pretty much the one thing keeping me from just going to Amazon instead.

I guess I'm gambling either way. Also, I'm assuming there aren't any huge, perilous issues about audio cable length that I should be worrying about either? I was thinking of going with this, since audio cables are very affordable by comparison, and 22 AWG would at least promise some resilience (albeit with a minor inconvenience). I'm not really a big sound connoisseur (I still use the speakers built into my TV), so I don't have to worry about the same "Oh, lordy, will I get 1080p with this," concerns either.

EliteLamer wrote: »

Hey synthesis it sounds like we are doing the same thing. When I move next year I want to have my computer in my room but run a cable to the 60 inch in the family room. Are you planing to play video games on the screen in the other room too?

Eh, yeah, more or less. My TV is in my apartment's living room, but my PC is under my desk, in my bedroom. It's about 45 feet away, without drilling any holes anywhere.

Synthesis

Status update--success!

The HDMI to DVI cable works beautifully, except for the side consequence of making my living room look like I'm trying to jump an unseen automobile.

However, I now have another complication. The wireless keyboard/mouse combo I own, while light and portable, don't come close to having enough reach. It seems like the most logical solution is a USB extension cable (yes, another cable). Does anyone have experience attaching the tracking dongle (from a Microsoft Wireless Desktop 5000 combo) to a long USB cable?

Jeltz

Great!

USB is not as straight forward unfortunately. Maximum cable length is 5 meters, but you can extend that by two different methods:
- Connect USB hubs in a long chain of cables and hubs
- Use Cat-5 cables. By using special USB Cat-5 extenders you can transfer the USB signals over Cat-5 network cables, which are much better than USB cables signal quality wise. This can get you up to 50 meters on a single cable according to Wikipedia.

Synthesis

Yeah, I'm beginning to appreciate the new set of problems (whee). My wireless keyboard and mouse, by themselves barely reach half-way, so I'm glad I kept the receipt.

My options are limited--advertised "long range" keyboards and mice are rare, and not very well designed otherwise by the looks of them. I think my only option is buying a powered hub that I can set on shelf half way there, along with....yes, another relatively long cable (20 to 25 ft), and hope the hub can boost the dongle's on range (about 10 to 15 ft) to my couch.

That should be more than enough, the trick is, of course, making sure the powered hub does its job of supply power to the dongle (anyone know about this?). Thankfully, I have a pocket powered USB Hub from the laptop I bought more than 6 years ago (I never throw anything away ever) which appears to still work. That leaves getting a conventional extension cable that will cover part of the distance...I think? Sound about right to anyone?

EDIT: Okay, quick 10 minute test later, it seems as though putting a hub on my shelf DOES work--I plugged the hub into my laptop, as was able to manipulate my laptop on the shelf from my couch. So the missing component is the 20 to 25 ft cable!

Or, conversely, I can try buying an "Active" extension cable, which seems to be popular for these kind of purposes, like this one, which is popular for the purpose of wireless keyboards. This does save me the trouble of the hub (and it seems like after about 15 feet, all USB cables are, in fact, active cables anyway--perhaps for the reason of the distance).

Jeltz

A powered hub will supply at least 500 mA for each port. (That's what the USB spec requires) I'd wager a dongle for wireless mice/keyboards will draw 100 mA or less.

Synthesis

That sounds about right, even for an older USB Hub. Still, the active cable might be less obstructive and more reliable, so I may go with that (plus I can easily move the cable back into my room for when I want to use my mouse and keyboard at the desk).

EliteLamer

How much is running all the cable and hub goign to cost you?

EliteLamer

Anyone know how far TOS LINK can run?

Synthesis

The cable cost me $23 (including S&H), and that was for 32.5 feet apparently. I think this will effectively fix the problem (and I'll finally have finished).

Jeltz

EliteLamer wrote: »

Anyone know how far TOS LINK can run?

A little background first: You may have noticed that many devices with digital audio out have both optical (Toslink) and coaxial connectors for digital audio. The collective term for both of these interfaces is S/PDIF. The optical and coaxial cables will carry the exact same signal, there is no quality difference.

From what I remember, the optical interface was designed for very low-spec optical fiber--as a consequence the signal won't reach very far because of high attenuation. I think the S/PDIF spec specifies a max cable length of 10 m (for both optical and coaxial) but that the coaxial variety can be extended beyond that if you use very high quality cable. Your milage may vary of course.

So go for coaxial if your equipment allows that. If you have to use optical, I think you'll be limited to the S/PDIF spec (10 m).

Synthesis

Glad that's one thing I don't need to worry about.

noweat

this might be a bit late, but i ran into a similar situation with my htpc input wise. i eventually just tossed my old wireless set and bought a logitech bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo since its range could easily cover my living room. the only issue i had was that i needed to use a small extension to keep the bluetooth reciever a couple feet clear of my actual machine or my mouse would occasionally freak out.

its a lot of money for some input devices but it was a clean solution. most of the time i just use my phone to control my computer though... so you might need to weigh the whole value thing.

i did the same thing as you for audio until i recently picked up an ati card that sent audio over the hdmi. in reality it doesn't add too much, but i can finally pass through the digital audio signal to my receiver so i think its worth it.

Synthesis

That's not a bad idea, but I don't know when I'm going to be getting a new video card...basically, I need something that can replace a pair of 8800GT cards, and be economic. And seeing how Nvidia's high-performance cards are, increasingly, more expensive than God, I think I'm better off trading my dual core for a quad core next upgrade.

So, I'm staying with the HDMI to DVI option. I can get a converter whenever I get an HDMI card, and it'll probably carry over audio still.

Which Logitech combo are you talking about? I did a lot of shopping, but found I was extremely comfortable for the fairly economic price. The range simply isn't long enough (honestly, I don't think there are any readily available setups, Logitech's included, that cover the 40 feet I need).

noweat

well i can see that dual 8800gt could get pretty pricey to replace, I was only moving up from a single gts.

as far as the keyboard goes, mine isn't sold anymore but it was the original version of this

I must of missed the 40 ft requirement, I don't think I've ever used mine beyond 25-30ish. so yeah, it's probably a bit of a reach to pick up something like this when you know you have more important upgrades to get.

Synthesis

Yeah, especially if I'm staying with Nvidia, replacing my 8800GT cards is a very expensive venture.

I'm going to be staying with the Wireless Comfort Desktop 5000--the integration with Windows 7 is fantastic (as you'd expect from Microsoft), and the range is pretty much standard (i.e. not long enough). Mine basically reaches....about 20 feet, through a single wall.

Synthesis

Okay, double post again.

Got the extender. Works beautifully. Mission succession.

Now, I just need to find why my desktop theme always disappears whenever I switch primary displays (basically, I have Windows 7's nifty scrolling wallpapers).

EDIT: Posting this from the comfort of my couch (I have a really shitty desk chair that came with my apartment, I need to replace it, it is horrible on my posture). Apparently the easiest way to fix this problem is to kill DMW.exe (it'll restart itself) in the task manager. Anyway, the setup is pretty awesome, going to go enjoy some Napoleon: Total War now I think (I'm not sure if my games will adjust to my new resolution or what).