First couple things you can do, and I would communicate with your recruiter as much as possible:
-You may be able to push back your ship date some. At least until you know what is going on, I think this may be prudent.
-As for completely nullifying your contract and attempting to join at a later date: entirely possible. In a few years everyone who worked with you locally will be transferred, so any personal feelings from them won't be a factor. Administratively speaking, there won't be any action taken against you.
-Another thing very few people know: until you get on that bus/plane or whatever to boot camp, you can cancel at any time. Yes you've signed things, yes you've taken an oath, etc etc. You're not beholden to the military until you go through those gates. Go to your recruiter, discuss what's going on, and if you can't work out a solution, tell them to take you out of DEP. I'm sure they have plenty of qualified candidates behind you waiting to get in, so I don't imagine them being too reticent to let you go considering your situation.
You have to make your own decisions. Personally I'd still join so that I can better take care of myself, but I don't know all the particulars of your situation. I'm not sure how the Guard works compared to the standard reserves, but I imagine the possibility exists that you could be activated soon after joining, which would throw your life into quite a disarray.
Thank you so much.
I don't want to get to into paticulars about the situation due to identity issues but basically there is a unit that is getting activated in 2012 that every single one of my friends who has gotten back into the state is getting dumped into. Normally I would jump at the chance to deploy but with this situation and other situations involving my wife, I just can't. I'd be losing money going to training and my training is slated to last over nine months. If my mom does end up having cancer, I would just feel too selfish leaving the family behind.
Pushing back my ship date isn't an option, due to other stuff. It would either be I go, or somehow I get out of the contract.
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Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
The funny thing is it really doesn't have a ton to do with the PT thing, but it's part of a larger mosaic of him coming in here and throwing out advice and opinions from the position of a long serving military member. I didn't even say body types caused failures, just that some are suited to reaching high scores with less effort on the all important cardio portion. I explained this in an earlier post.
He's not active, he's not even been activated as a reservist. He's shown a few times that he just doesn't get it, coming in denigrating those in the unit he's worked with as a ROTC kid or whatever his particular designation may be.
.
I decided to highlight the ROTC Kid part to emphasis where I see the temperament problem. I see this anger issue with a lot of the guys I've dealt with in the Reserves (Mind you, I AM IN THE MILITARY. I could give you a copy of my DD-214 right now if you really needed that proof, but regardless. I've been in for three years and was pushing my E5 before I decided to SMP with a local ROTC Unit. I realized that I not only had the ambition, but the mental power to make more money than I could make being an enlisted soldier while doing the thing I love to do. Serving.
I personally don't know you nor your background (Then again, I do now that you mentioned it and what you mentioned as told me a lot about your character). You shouldn't be taking your anger out on a guy just because hes "ROTC" or a Reservist. Despite being an ROTC Cadet this doesn't give you the privilege to shit all over me because I'm simply a Cadet. How do you think shitting all over a Cadet and being an E6 Drill Sergeant in the Navy represents yourself to not only myself, but a possible future Cadet of all branches that could be viewing or might view this thread in the future? It's not positive, but all negative.
Being a Cadet and SMPing with a Reserve Unit is a great learning experience. The ultimate objective of it is to put a Cadet into various leadership positions within the unit so that they can learn from their past mistakes so that when we become 2nd LTs we don't make those mistakes. I learned back in October from my mess up when I stepped on my NCOs Toes during a PT Test. Yes, it was a mistake, but I learned from it.
Ultimately though, I post in this thread because its a Military Thread. I'm not quite familiar with the deployment life, MEPS, or the whole signing up process as many of you are, however, that doesn't make my opinion obsolete. I do know Cadet Land fairly well and I also know the tricks of the trade regarding Educational Benefits and Campus VAs. I post here waiting for that one day someone asks for advice for these categories. Until that day comes you can choose to continue to maintain that attitude that ROTC Cadets and Reservists are garbage and continue to be arrogant or you can change that attitude and work to lead by example and help those Reservists and Cadets that come your way to make them stronger leaders and soldiers as a whole. Choice is yours mate.
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Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
Pushing back my ship date isn't an option, due to other stuff. It would either be I go, or somehow I get out of the contract.
You can ultimately refuse to ship out. You'll end up getting chewed out, they'll threaten you, and try to pressure you back into your obligation. Ultimately, what'll happen is that once you miss your ship date you'll have a year to ship out before your contract nullifies. At this point you'll never be able to rejoin the military again.
Pushing back my ship date isn't an option, due to other stuff. It would either be I go, or somehow I get out of the contract.
You can ultimately refuse to ship out. You'll end up getting chewed out, they'll threaten you, and try to pressure you back into your obligation. Ultimately, what'll happen is that once you miss your ship date you'll have a year to ship out before your contract nullifies. At this point you'll never be able to rejoin the military again.
I am pretty sure this is not true. Medicals on contracts are good for two years. You have two years to leave before you have to re-do your medical. And I am pretty sure you aren't disqualified forever.
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ZeroFillFeeling much better.A nice, green leaf.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Yep, you're not disqualed forever. You just have to start from complete scratch if your physicals are no longer current (didn't know the particular date was 2 years, however)
And Waffen, I have no problem with reservists. Just that they not try to act like experts on what the military is like until they've been through an activation, that's all I expect.
You continue you bring your know-it-all attitude with your limited experience. You'll make a fine junior officer.
Yep, you're not disqualed forever. You just have to start from complete scratch if your physicals are no longer current (didn't know the particular date was 2 years, however)
And Waffen, I have no problem with reservists. Just that they not try to act like experts on what the military is like until they've been through an activation, that's all I expect.
You continue you bring your know-it-all attitude with your limited experience. You'll make a fine junior officer.
Do you know if ASVAB scores carry over? I got a 98 AFQT and over 120 on all of my line scores. I'd like that to carry over so if I do have to break contract I can try to come back and get the job I actually want, HUMINT Collector.
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ZeroFillFeeling much better.A nice, green leaf.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
ASVAB scores are valid for 2 years. Beyond that you'll have to re-take them. But if you got a 98, I wouldn't worry. The longer you're out of high school, the more likely your scores are to go down... however with a 98 QT line score it's likely you'll qualify for anything you want, even if you do drop a couple points down the road.
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Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
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This is a slightly random question, but you may be able to answer it better than most: why isn't the pull-up used by all the branches as part of their PT test? It seems like that'd be a pretty good reflection of overall upper body strength, probably more so than push-ups, and they're functional as well.
Yep, you're not disqualed forever. You just have to start from complete scratch if your physicals are no longer current (didn't know the particular date was 2 years, however)
And Waffen, I have no problem with reservists. Just that they not try to act like experts on what the military is like until they've been through an activation, that's all I expect.
You continue you bring your know-it-all attitude with your limited experience. You'll make a fine junior officer.
Do you know if ASVAB scores carry over? I got a 98 AFQT and over 120 on all of my line scores. I'd like that to carry over so if I do have to break contract I can try to come back and get the job I actually want, HUMINT Collector.
THT(tactical humint team)?
I thought they were being phased out.
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
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This is a slightly random question, but you may be able to answer it better than most: why isn't the pull-up used by all the branches as part of their PT test? It seems like that'd be a pretty good reflection of overall upper body strength, probably more so than push-ups, and they're functional as well.
That's a great question, but I doubt anyone here could provide any kind of answer that isn't more than just an opinion.
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I have another short story question, if folks don't mind. Army, specifically. Spoiler'd for those who don't care.
Ballpark, how long does it take to move up in the enlisted ranks? Obviously it's not automatic or anything, but in general terms how long can you expect someone at a given level to have been in? Same for officer ranks, actually.
I'll have more as the story comes together a bit; I'm just curious so I can get the characters' timelines correct.
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Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
I have another short story question, if folks don't mind. Army, specifically. Spoiler'd for those who don't care.
Ballpark, how long does it take to move up in the enlisted ranks? Obviously it's not automatic or anything, but in general terms how long can you expect someone at a given level to have been in? Same for officer ranks, actually.
I'll have more as the story comes together a bit; I'm just curious so I can get the characters' timelines correct.
The Junior Enlisted Ranks (E1-E4) all vary. Things such as recruiting a friend, doing an online course, college credits, etc. can all allow you to enter at a higher pay grade. However, past that point promotion really depends on Commander's intent. If your doing good PT wise, doing your job, and not messing up you'll swing through the junior ranks fast* (Not guaranteed). After E4 you need to work for your promotions. To get E5 you need to have a slot available to get it. On top of that you need to complete school courses such as WLC. For the Reserves getting your E5 then is as simple as dropping a packet. For Active I know you drop a packet, and have to go to the board to be reviewed to determine if your qualifications.
I have another short story question, if folks don't mind. Army, specifically. Spoiler'd for those who don't care.
Ballpark, how long does it take to move up in the enlisted ranks? Obviously it's not automatic or anything, but in general terms how long can you expect someone at a given level to have been in? Same for officer ranks, actually.
I'll have more as the story comes together a bit; I'm just curious so I can get the characters' timelines correct.
If your putting in packets on time, and basically just walking up right, your unit should have you promoted to sham shield, SPC, E-4, in about 2-2.5 years if you didn't recruit anyone, didn't get any awards, and don't have any college experience. These are the gimme ranks, so unless you're driving humvee's or deuce and 1/2's into ditches on purpose, you'll get these as you become eligible. Just keep up to date with any awards, your time in service (TIS) and time and grade (TIG).
From E-4 to E-5, you need at least 8 months TIG at E-4, and 3 years TIS. BN CSM consent. There are no boards anymore for E-5 (due to the wars). If they are telling you need to go before a board for E-5, they are bullshitting you. They did away with the WLC/PLDC and promotion board requirement back in 05-06 because they needed more SGT's and SSG's in Iraq and Afghanistan. They moved the E-5 requirements to E-6 (WLC), and pushed your board back to E-6/7. It is completely up to your BN CSM when to promote you to E-5.
From E-5 to E-6: 10months TIG at E-5, and 7 years TIS. Needs WLC completed or will be completed within 1 year of promotion to E-6. BN CSM consent.
Those are the requirements, the following is the absolute minimum eligibility:
E-5: 4 months -TIG, 1.5yrs TIS.
E-6: 5 months -TIG, 4 years TIS, WLC completed within 1 year. You will rarely see this, and it's an absolute bitch to get. These are your fast movers who shoot up ranks quickly.
Senior enlisted board. You will go before a promotion board:
E-7 Need: BNOC both phases and WLC, 6 years TIS for eligibility.
E-8 Need: ANOC all phases, BNOC both phases, WLC, 8 years TIS for eligibility.
E-9 Need: SGM school (they combined SGM and 1SG school), ANOC all phases, BNOC both phase, WLC, 9 years TIS for eligibility.
Unless your a hot shit SOF operative, you will never be that fast of a mover up to E-9 in 9 years. You won't have the experience, you're entire Army career will be nothing but Army schools, in order for the board to approve your promotion.
Officer is a completely different beast. In the Army: butter bar to Captain are your gimme ranks(You should be a captain within 4 years of your commission). After you reach Captain, that's when it starts getting difficult: Your records start going to promotion boards who determine if they want to promote you. Get passed up twice, you're out and the whole process is very political.
O-4: 10 years TIS, 3 years TIG, and be in 80% of your group.
O-5: 16 years TIS, 3 years TIG, 70% of your group.
O-6: 22 years TIS, 3 years TIG, 50% of your group.
O-7 and above, you need general school, nomination from the president, and an act of congress to approve. After promotion to O-7, if you are not recommended for O-8, you must retire five years after promotion or 30years of service, whichever is later.
If promoted to O-8 and not recommended for O-9, retire 5 years after promotion or 35 years of service, whichever is greater.
Mandatory retirement age for all officers is 62, at most 64.
Edit: I didn't realize it was for a story because I wasn't really paying attention...but those are the basic details. I guess you could make a story point about someone being f'd over in promotions but it's more important that you know your rank structure and tiers, how it's actually broken down into use:
Enlisted:
From E-1 to E-4, their responsibilities are very minimal in most cases. A Specialist in the Army doesn't really know anything more than the E-2, or E-3. Like I said, it's a give me rank. These are the guys who fill out a fire team, 3-5 people. E-1's are your FNG's, E-2's are people straight out of basic training and still FNG's, E-3's are still FNG's but they know the system, and E-4's are the worst of the worst, shammers all around (if you look at the rank, it's why it's called "Sham Shield"). A group of Specialists (E-4), form the E-4 mafia, your barracks lawyers, etc...
A Corporal however, while one of the most hated ranks in the Army, knows more shit than the E-4 even though they are both E-4's. Usually your Team leaders, the A-guy in the team, but can even be a squad leader. It's a rank that denotes achievement in a field and you're the most junior Non-commissioned Officer (Enlisted). So you have a bit more "power", but it's still a shit rank. More responsibilities, same pay.
At E-5, you're supposed to be commanding Teams or a Squad. Typically, they've been around a bit longer, know a bit more, but it's not really all that much different. This is your baseline NCO really, the guys who make sure things are done. In charge of 3-5 men.
By the time most people hit E-6, they are "salty". They've been around, they should know their shit, and are usually the ones you can count on for things to be done. Usually commanding a Squad (2-3 teams) or a Platoon (3-4 Squads).
The higher up you go, the rarer they are seen so it adds an aura of mystery/power/intimidation. In the Army, once you hit E-7, it takes an act of congress to demote you back. So unless you really really fucked up, most E-7's act with immunity. They are usually your platoon sergeant's (platoon daddy).
E-8's, are First Sergeants or Master Sergeants. Your first sergeant (top, diamond, or first sergeant) is your highest enlisted member in a company (3-4 platoons). He is the direct line between your Company Commander (a 1LT or Captain), NCO's and enlisted men. A Master Sergeant can be found in a company, mostly as your A-guy: The guy who is the most proficient at a skill set, usually admin in nature. Usually, you might see 1 Master Sergeant in a company, but you will always see 1SG in a company.
E-9 is your Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major. These are the people who are the NCO's at battalion level, and so to the very lower enlisted, they are "uber mysterious". There is always 1 CSM in a battalion, and they are the direct voice of the Battalion Commander (BN CMDR). Almost all of these people are "salty". Good example of a CSM: Even though it's Marine Corps, from "Generation Kill", Sergeant Major Sixta.
There is exactly 1 Command Sergeant Major of the Army. They are the "voice" of the entire NCO and enlisted personnel for the entire Army.
Officers:
O-1: 2LT's. Brand new officers. Get a lot of shit because they talk a lot of shit. Most brand new officers will get a rash of shit from E-6's and above. Most O-2's learn that while it's required they be saluted by every enlisted member, E-7's and above probably won't do it. 2LT's are typically your Platoon Leaders (Platoon Mother), who's sole goal at that position is mainly coordinate with the XO or Commander about a week out (The overarching goal), then relay that information, coordinate and plan, and let the Platoon Sergeant execute the mission. Most just sit there and keep other officers away from their platoon. ROTC/Academies make up the bulk, while direct commissions (from enlisted to officers) are known as "mustangs". A mustang was prior enlisted, became an officer, so they get a little bit more respect from the enlisted members.
O-2: 1LT's. Better, but still can be horrible. These can be anything from Platoon leader, to XO, to even Commander. As XO, you do mostly admin stuff to make sure things are getting done while the Commander and platoon leaders focus on other issues.
O-3: Captain. Typically your Company Commander (3-5 (1 HQ) platoons: 3-5 LT's), sometimes Battalion XO. As Company Commander, you discuss the operation plan that is being given to you by the Battalion Commander which may consist of just bullet points and goals, leaving it to the Commander to decide how best to utilize his company to achieve some or all of the bullet points or goals (based on scope).
O-4: Major. This is where, especially to lower enlisted guys, the aura of mystique kicks in. A major holds a more sway than the Captain and is usually the Battalion XO, so captains don't wan't to look bad because the BN XO will rat them out. But basically, still someone's bitch: they still make coffee for the Colonel's. Mostly admin role as XO.
O-5: LT. Colonel. Battalion Commander or Brigade XO. Battalion Commander is in charge of 2-4 Companies (so 2-4 Captains).
O-6: Colonel ("Full Bird"). Battalion Commander or Brigade XO. Usually doesn't really interact much with anyone lower except for maybe a few Captains, Lt's, 1SG's. Mainly uses the Battalion CSM to issue his orders. When the Colonel speaks, everyone listens, or faces the wrath of not only their Captain but their 1SG and Battalion CSM coming down on their ass.
O-7 and above. Your general ranks. It goes, Brigadier Gen. (Brigade Commander\Command (Like USACIDC)), Major Gen. (Brigade Commander\Command(Like USARSO or ATEC)), Lieutenant Gen. (Division\Corps\Army\Theater\Command (USACE, USMA, USARC, IMCOM, USARPAC, USANORTH)), General (Corps\Army\Theater\Command: FORSCOM, TRADOC, AMC, USAREUR) from lowest to highest. There exists a 5-star General rank, General of the Armies, but it hasn't been used since Korea and no one is promoted into that rank anymore. Generals always sit in the rear unless they are doing motto walks through your area. When a general walks through your area, everyone hates it because it fucks up your entire day (cleaning, cleaning, hurry up and wait).
Note: Nothing is said about the intelligence of any members of any of these ranks. For every horrible story you've heard about ineptness from any rank, there exists x number of counter stories about great intelligence for that rank.
I have another short story question, if folks don't mind. Army, specifically. Spoiler'd for those who don't care.
Ballpark, how long does it take to move up in the enlisted ranks? Obviously it's not automatic or anything, but in general terms how long can you expect someone at a given level to have been in? Same for officer ranks, actually.
I'll have more as the story comes together a bit; I'm just curious so I can get the characters' timelines correct.
The Junior Enlisted Ranks (E1-E4) all vary. Things such as recruiting a friend, doing an online course, college credits, etc. can all allow you to enter at a higher pay grade. However, past that point promotion really depends on Commander's intent. If your doing good PT wise, doing your job, and not messing up you'll swing through the junior ranks fast* (Not guaranteed). After E4 you need to work for your promotions. To get E5 you need to have a slot available to get it. On top of that you need to complete school courses such as WLC. For the Reserves getting your E5 then is as simple as dropping a packet. For Active I know you drop a packet, and have to go to the board to be reviewed to determine if your qualifications.
Here is a good example of where you're almost entirely wrong. Read the above post for how it actually works for active duty.
Wow it is easy to get rank in the army, in the air force you basically get E-4 at your 3 year mark and then if you can pass the test (about half get it) make e-5 around 4 years.
It honestly varies like both Iceman and Feels Good Man said. It varies drastically between service branches (which is why a lot of Marines come into the Army, they believe they'll be promoted more, faster, and higher), and it varies between specialties, ex: Like Feels Good Man said, if you're a medic it's a bitch to be promoted, while infantry almost always promote, while if you're in the SOF, you're fast tracked to E-7.
It also varies between Active duty and Reserve/National Guard units. Guard units are notorious for never being promoted, Reserve almost always promote, and Active duty has a "balance" to it.
There are also strength requirements a unit needs to meet, staffing and slots, etc..... But that's getting way too in depth for a story.
I can't believe that in 1 more year, I'll be at 12 years. I feel salty.
Edit:
I believe the pullup issue, in the Army at least, is that it only worked your biceps, triceps, and obliques, where as the pushup worked your shoulders, biceps, triceps, chest, forearms, spine, some which are important not only for strength, but load bearing (ruck sack, body armor, vests, etc..). The situp when used with running, tests your core, the running tests your endurance and stamina, while the pushup tested more of your upper body strength.
At least, that's what I remember from my drill sergeant discussions with other drill sergeants.
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ZeroFillFeeling much better.A nice, green leaf.Registered Userregular
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This is a slightly random question, but you may be able to answer it better than most: why isn't the pull-up used by all the branches as part of their PT test? It seems like that'd be a pretty good reflection of overall upper body strength, probably more so than push-ups, and they're functional as well.
Like everyone said, I couldn't possible begin to speculate on the designs of those who are in charge of this type of policy.
I am inclined to agree as to the pull up as an effective measure of upper body strength. My job in particular has me handling ammunition and it's associated equipment quite often, and those that lack upper body strength find themselves injured more often and less of an asset.
I am of the opinion that the lack of a pull-up requirement has more to do with the politics of gender equality than anything, and while standards for females are already softened quite greatly, were they to institute a pull-up requirement for men and none for women there would be an uproar.
I'm guessing that the Marines, due to having by far the smallest percentage of females and the most latitude in imposing standards, can sidestep the issue somewhat, if not entirely. As it stands, I believe their females have to do a flexed arm hang or some such nonsense in lieu of pull-ups.
Personally, I find it particularly infuriating that females are billeted to the same jobs I am, compete equally with me for rank (rightfully so, mind you) but are however held to a lower physical standard.
However, there has been a recent turnaround on the blue side in PT standards. Enforcement has become extremely strict, standards are tightening slowly but surely, and soon our fitness scores will actually factor into our evaluations. So there is hope. A good way to get kicked out of the Navy right now, sans benefits, is to fail a few PT tests.
I thought the minimum was 6 months TIG with 2yrs TIS. 1.5yrs is the minimum TIS needed for a waiver to E4 (or it was when I was in), so I don't even know how it could also be the minimum for E5.
Also, did they ever change the promotion point system? Not making points could prevent you from getting promoted for years if your MOS has always requires a high number of points for E5 and E6, and your unit never gets slots for any schools.
I thought the minimum was 6 months TIG with 2yrs TIS. 1.5yrs is the minimum TIS needed for a waiver to E4 (or it was when I was in), so I don't even know how it could also be the minimum for E5.
Also, did they ever change the promotion point system? Not making points could prevent you from getting promoted for years if your MOS has always requires a high number of points for E5 and E6, and your unit never gets slots for any schools.
The promotion point system is still around, it's still a pain in the ass if your unit never gets any schools, but they've been tweaking the amount of points you get for things...slowly. A problem they're running into is that a lot of E-4/5/6's returning from 3+ deployments have a hard time competing against an E-4/5/6 who stayed stateside and did the shit out of some online correspondence, worked on their pt, did excellent on their rifle qual, got a few awards for being upstanding back home, had the opportunity to attend army schools, and get their packet it in right, early, and without needing corrections. Slowly, the E-7's who've done absolutely nothing but attend Army schools are being phased out, and it'll works it's way down (maybe).
As for the minimum for E-5, those are the absolute minimums and require waivers. If you're being put up for E-5 at that short rate, you're a fast tracker and hot shit, because they really really don't do that, ever.
Also, the "atta boy/good boy/club" system is still in place. I've seen, in the past year, PT failures, school failures, etc... still get promoted ahead of me.
edit: Yea, if you're finding it really difficult keeping pace against your MOS, starting doing a lot of correspondence courses. I think you max out at 15-30 or something like that, but every little bit helps. Hell, you know the top guys in your MOS are doing it, so why shouldn't you?
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I like the Air Force promotion system better than the others, it seems like fewer people have control over your career. Also, it seems like it's a lot easier to lose rank in the other branches.
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I like the Air Force promotion system better than the others, it seems like fewer people have control over your career. Also, it seems like it's a lot easier to lose rank in the other branches.
Ever been around the Army? If you think the AF can lose stripes easy, your head might explode. They had pin on rank forever for a reason, "Easy on, easy off".
So much great information about promotion and ranks...
Man, thanks for that info. It's insanely helpful.
So, I'm considering the military right now. I won't lie, it's primarily to help pay down my student debt, but I also don't have many other career prospects at the moment and I'm getting old enough that the urge to get my long-term shit together is becoming too strong to ignore.
I'm mostly considering full-time Army, because it offers the most attractive benefits package for someone in my position.
One question I currently have, though, concerns my eyesight. Now, I'm otherwise healthy as a horse, don't take medication, and have never had any significant medical condition, but one of my eyes is approaching the maximum corrective diopter (the eye is -7.50, the limit is +/-8.00). I'm a bit worried about it getting any worse - I'd get surgery but now I'm seeing things that suggest that may disqualify me. The discussion a few pages ago suggested that maybe only certain types of surgery are an issue. Is that the case?
Also, if my eyesight were to get worse after entering service, would I get kicked to the curb?
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ZeroFillFeeling much better.A nice, green leaf.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
As long as you meet requirements upon entry into the military, you won't be kicked out later without some kind of benefits (i.e. disabled pay, medical coverage for related conditions.) You'll never just be told to go home and stop collecting paychecks.
If you need a corrective procedure, it's entirely possibly the military can do this for you too, down the road. Laser eye surgery is becoming more commonplace. I know quite a few people in the Navy who have had it done for free.
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ZeroFillFeeling much better.A nice, green leaf.Registered Userregular
Cool, thanks for the info. I wouldn't mind the Army springing for the surgery but I imagine that's not something they offer someone until they've been around at least a little while.
Mostly I just don't want to limit my options either before or after I enter just for something that I could easily avoid (either by getting surgery, getting the right kind of surgery, or avoiding surgery completely).
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
I like the Air Force promotion system better than the others, it seems like fewer people have control over your career. Also, it seems like it's a lot easier to lose rank in the other branches.
Ever been around the Army? If you think the AF can lose stripes easy, your head might explode. They had pin on rank forever for a reason, "Easy on, easy off".
I said that it's easier to lose rank in the other branches.
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I like the Air Force promotion system better than the others, it seems like fewer people have control over your career. Also, it seems like it's a lot easier to lose rank in the other branches.
Ever been around the Army? If you think the AF can lose stripes easy, your head might explode. They had pin on rank forever for a reason, "Easy on, easy off".
Nah, blood rank is the reason the Army had pin on rank for so long.
Air Force promotion system is pretty bad I think, it doesn't matter if you suck at your job or not, you can be promoted just if you study a lot for a test. A test which was nearly irrelevant for my career field.
I like the Air Force promotion system better than the others, it seems like fewer people have control over your career. Also, it seems like it's a lot easier to lose rank in the other branches.
Ever been around the Army? If you think the AF can lose stripes easy, your head might explode. They had pin on rank forever for a reason, "Easy on, easy off".
Nah, blood rank is the reason the Army had pin on rank for so long.
It used to be 3 taps: 2 in the lapels of the shoulders, one in the forehead for the hat rank. Blood stripes where knees to both thighs, blood wings open hand palm to the chest. It still happens for awards, in house. Pin the award on their chest, BAM followed by handshakes and congratulations. Then of course, the gauntlet:
1st squad does an about face, 3rd and forth form at the end of the 1st and 2nd, then whomever it is runs from one side to the next, getting punched, kicked, kidney shots, etc..then faces his squad leader at the end. Platoon reforms up, 3rd squad does an about face, 1st and 2nd reform on 3rd and fourth, then the person runs from one side back to the other and faces the platoon sergeant at the end. It's all good fun, you make sure not to hit anywhere visible or too hard (because it may be your occassion next time, plus extra work you may have to cover or make up and it's just a dick move and no one likes it).
We did it for birthdays, anniversaries, re-enlistments, etc.. We even did it to our battalion CSM because at the time, we where all close, like family.
I do have some advice. My first deployment I had a long term girlfriend and wasn't a jealous person. As soon as I was deployed I became this jealous maniac. I would freak out every time she told me she was going out with friends. Always thinking that she was doing shit behind my back, even though I had no evidence that she was.
Anyways, that relationship self destructed after only 3 months of being deployed.
Lessoned learned. I came home (to Hawaii) and met a wonderful woman on my 72 hour pass after redeploying. We married after only dating for 4 months. We are married almost 6 years now.
Anyways, I deployed again in 08 on her birthday. This time I went into the deployment, telling myself that there is absolutly no reason to be jealous and to not let myself manifest shit in my head. I knew that she would be going out with friends, fuck I'm deployed she deserves to have some fun.
I would talk to her as much as I could, but kept the conversation light. Never, oh god I miss you so much! I can't stand life without you crap.
15 months and nearly 400 bomb disposals later. I'm home, we are still happily married and never once did she or I get jealous!
Just go on your deployment with the mindset that you don't need to control her life to be happy.
Bloodycow on
" I am a warrior, so that my son may be a merchant, so that his son may be a poet.”
― John Quincy Adams
Posts
Thank you so much.
I don't want to get to into paticulars about the situation due to identity issues but basically there is a unit that is getting activated in 2012 that every single one of my friends who has gotten back into the state is getting dumped into. Normally I would jump at the chance to deploy but with this situation and other situations involving my wife, I just can't. I'd be losing money going to training and my training is slated to last over nine months. If my mom does end up having cancer, I would just feel too selfish leaving the family behind.
Pushing back my ship date isn't an option, due to other stuff. It would either be I go, or somehow I get out of the contract.
I decided to highlight the ROTC Kid part to emphasis where I see the temperament problem. I see this anger issue with a lot of the guys I've dealt with in the Reserves (Mind you, I AM IN THE MILITARY. I could give you a copy of my DD-214 right now if you really needed that proof, but regardless. I've been in for three years and was pushing my E5 before I decided to SMP with a local ROTC Unit. I realized that I not only had the ambition, but the mental power to make more money than I could make being an enlisted soldier while doing the thing I love to do. Serving.
I personally don't know you nor your background (Then again, I do now that you mentioned it and what you mentioned as told me a lot about your character). You shouldn't be taking your anger out on a guy just because hes "ROTC" or a Reservist. Despite being an ROTC Cadet this doesn't give you the privilege to shit all over me because I'm simply a Cadet. How do you think shitting all over a Cadet and being an E6 Drill Sergeant in the Navy represents yourself to not only myself, but a possible future Cadet of all branches that could be viewing or might view this thread in the future? It's not positive, but all negative.
Being a Cadet and SMPing with a Reserve Unit is a great learning experience. The ultimate objective of it is to put a Cadet into various leadership positions within the unit so that they can learn from their past mistakes so that when we become 2nd LTs we don't make those mistakes. I learned back in October from my mess up when I stepped on my NCOs Toes during a PT Test. Yes, it was a mistake, but I learned from it.
Ultimately though, I post in this thread because its a Military Thread. I'm not quite familiar with the deployment life, MEPS, or the whole signing up process as many of you are, however, that doesn't make my opinion obsolete. I do know Cadet Land fairly well and I also know the tricks of the trade regarding Educational Benefits and Campus VAs. I post here waiting for that one day someone asks for advice for these categories. Until that day comes you can choose to continue to maintain that attitude that ROTC Cadets and Reservists are garbage and continue to be arrogant or you can change that attitude and work to lead by example and help those Reservists and Cadets that come your way to make them stronger leaders and soldiers as a whole. Choice is yours mate.
You can ultimately refuse to ship out. You'll end up getting chewed out, they'll threaten you, and try to pressure you back into your obligation. Ultimately, what'll happen is that once you miss your ship date you'll have a year to ship out before your contract nullifies. At this point you'll never be able to rejoin the military again.
I am pretty sure this is not true. Medicals on contracts are good for two years. You have two years to leave before you have to re-do your medical. And I am pretty sure you aren't disqualified forever.
And Waffen, I have no problem with reservists. Just that they not try to act like experts on what the military is like until they've been through an activation, that's all I expect.
You continue you bring your know-it-all attitude with your limited experience. You'll make a fine junior officer.
Do you know if ASVAB scores carry over? I got a 98 AFQT and over 120 on all of my line scores. I'd like that to carry over so if I do have to break contract I can try to come back and get the job I actually want, HUMINT Collector.
I sure will.
Question, here's an article I think that might portray to your situation.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/dep.htm
Didn't have time to read it all the way, but it may help you out.
This is a slightly random question, but you may be able to answer it better than most: why isn't the pull-up used by all the branches as part of their PT test? It seems like that'd be a pretty good reflection of overall upper body strength, probably more so than push-ups, and they're functional as well.
though it may produce a hilarious answer
THT(tactical humint team)?
I thought they were being phased out.
That's a great question, but I doubt anyone here could provide any kind of answer that isn't more than just an opinion.
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
If the navy and army made pull ups a requirement there would be manning issues as 80% of the fleet would be unable to do more than 1 or 2.
I'll have more as the story comes together a bit; I'm just curious so I can get the characters' timelines correct.
https://www.hrc.army.mil/site/Active/select/enlisted.htm
The Junior Enlisted Ranks (E1-E4) all vary. Things such as recruiting a friend, doing an online course, college credits, etc. can all allow you to enter at a higher pay grade. However, past that point promotion really depends on Commander's intent. If your doing good PT wise, doing your job, and not messing up you'll swing through the junior ranks fast* (Not guaranteed). After E4 you need to work for your promotions. To get E5 you need to have a slot available to get it. On top of that you need to complete school courses such as WLC. For the Reserves getting your E5 then is as simple as dropping a packet. For Active I know you drop a packet, and have to go to the board to be reviewed to determine if your qualifications.
If your putting in packets on time, and basically just walking up right, your unit should have you promoted to sham shield, SPC, E-4, in about 2-2.5 years if you didn't recruit anyone, didn't get any awards, and don't have any college experience. These are the gimme ranks, so unless you're driving humvee's or deuce and 1/2's into ditches on purpose, you'll get these as you become eligible. Just keep up to date with any awards, your time in service (TIS) and time and grade (TIG).
From E-4 to E-5, you need at least 8 months TIG at E-4, and 3 years TIS. BN CSM consent. There are no boards anymore for E-5 (due to the wars). If they are telling you need to go before a board for E-5, they are bullshitting you. They did away with the WLC/PLDC and promotion board requirement back in 05-06 because they needed more SGT's and SSG's in Iraq and Afghanistan. They moved the E-5 requirements to E-6 (WLC), and pushed your board back to E-6/7. It is completely up to your BN CSM when to promote you to E-5.
From E-5 to E-6: 10months TIG at E-5, and 7 years TIS. Needs WLC completed or will be completed within 1 year of promotion to E-6. BN CSM consent.
Those are the requirements, the following is the absolute minimum eligibility:
E-5: 4 months -TIG, 1.5yrs TIS.
E-6: 5 months -TIG, 4 years TIS, WLC completed within 1 year. You will rarely see this, and it's an absolute bitch to get. These are your fast movers who shoot up ranks quickly.
Senior enlisted board. You will go before a promotion board:
E-7 Need: BNOC both phases and WLC, 6 years TIS for eligibility.
E-8 Need: ANOC all phases, BNOC both phases, WLC, 8 years TIS for eligibility.
E-9 Need: SGM school (they combined SGM and 1SG school), ANOC all phases, BNOC both phase, WLC, 9 years TIS for eligibility.
Unless your a hot shit SOF operative, you will never be that fast of a mover up to E-9 in 9 years. You won't have the experience, you're entire Army career will be nothing but Army schools, in order for the board to approve your promotion.
Officer is a completely different beast. In the Army: butter bar to Captain are your gimme ranks(You should be a captain within 4 years of your commission). After you reach Captain, that's when it starts getting difficult: Your records start going to promotion boards who determine if they want to promote you. Get passed up twice, you're out and the whole process is very political.
O-4: 10 years TIS, 3 years TIG, and be in 80% of your group.
O-5: 16 years TIS, 3 years TIG, 70% of your group.
O-6: 22 years TIS, 3 years TIG, 50% of your group.
O-7 and above, you need general school, nomination from the president, and an act of congress to approve. After promotion to O-7, if you are not recommended for O-8, you must retire five years after promotion or 30years of service, whichever is later.
If promoted to O-8 and not recommended for O-9, retire 5 years after promotion or 35 years of service, whichever is greater.
Mandatory retirement age for all officers is 62, at most 64.
Edit: I didn't realize it was for a story because I wasn't really paying attention...but those are the basic details. I guess you could make a story point about someone being f'd over in promotions but it's more important that you know your rank structure and tiers, how it's actually broken down into use:
From E-1 to E-4, their responsibilities are very minimal in most cases. A Specialist in the Army doesn't really know anything more than the E-2, or E-3. Like I said, it's a give me rank. These are the guys who fill out a fire team, 3-5 people. E-1's are your FNG's, E-2's are people straight out of basic training and still FNG's, E-3's are still FNG's but they know the system, and E-4's are the worst of the worst, shammers all around (if you look at the rank, it's why it's called "Sham Shield"). A group of Specialists (E-4), form the E-4 mafia, your barracks lawyers, etc...
A Corporal however, while one of the most hated ranks in the Army, knows more shit than the E-4 even though they are both E-4's. Usually your Team leaders, the A-guy in the team, but can even be a squad leader. It's a rank that denotes achievement in a field and you're the most junior Non-commissioned Officer (Enlisted). So you have a bit more "power", but it's still a shit rank. More responsibilities, same pay.
At E-5, you're supposed to be commanding Teams or a Squad. Typically, they've been around a bit longer, know a bit more, but it's not really all that much different. This is your baseline NCO really, the guys who make sure things are done. In charge of 3-5 men.
By the time most people hit E-6, they are "salty". They've been around, they should know their shit, and are usually the ones you can count on for things to be done. Usually commanding a Squad (2-3 teams) or a Platoon (3-4 Squads).
The higher up you go, the rarer they are seen so it adds an aura of mystery/power/intimidation. In the Army, once you hit E-7, it takes an act of congress to demote you back. So unless you really really fucked up, most E-7's act with immunity. They are usually your platoon sergeant's (platoon daddy).
E-8's, are First Sergeants or Master Sergeants. Your first sergeant (top, diamond, or first sergeant) is your highest enlisted member in a company (3-4 platoons). He is the direct line between your Company Commander (a 1LT or Captain), NCO's and enlisted men. A Master Sergeant can be found in a company, mostly as your A-guy: The guy who is the most proficient at a skill set, usually admin in nature. Usually, you might see 1 Master Sergeant in a company, but you will always see 1SG in a company.
E-9 is your Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major. These are the people who are the NCO's at battalion level, and so to the very lower enlisted, they are "uber mysterious". There is always 1 CSM in a battalion, and they are the direct voice of the Battalion Commander (BN CMDR). Almost all of these people are "salty". Good example of a CSM: Even though it's Marine Corps, from "Generation Kill", Sergeant Major Sixta.
There is exactly 1 Command Sergeant Major of the Army. They are the "voice" of the entire NCO and enlisted personnel for the entire Army.
Officers:
O-1: 2LT's. Brand new officers. Get a lot of shit because they talk a lot of shit. Most brand new officers will get a rash of shit from E-6's and above. Most O-2's learn that while it's required they be saluted by every enlisted member, E-7's and above probably won't do it. 2LT's are typically your Platoon Leaders (Platoon Mother), who's sole goal at that position is mainly coordinate with the XO or Commander about a week out (The overarching goal), then relay that information, coordinate and plan, and let the Platoon Sergeant execute the mission. Most just sit there and keep other officers away from their platoon. ROTC/Academies make up the bulk, while direct commissions (from enlisted to officers) are known as "mustangs". A mustang was prior enlisted, became an officer, so they get a little bit more respect from the enlisted members.
O-2: 1LT's. Better, but still can be horrible. These can be anything from Platoon leader, to XO, to even Commander. As XO, you do mostly admin stuff to make sure things are getting done while the Commander and platoon leaders focus on other issues.
O-3: Captain. Typically your Company Commander (3-5 (1 HQ) platoons: 3-5 LT's), sometimes Battalion XO. As Company Commander, you discuss the operation plan that is being given to you by the Battalion Commander which may consist of just bullet points and goals, leaving it to the Commander to decide how best to utilize his company to achieve some or all of the bullet points or goals (based on scope).
O-4: Major. This is where, especially to lower enlisted guys, the aura of mystique kicks in. A major holds a more sway than the Captain and is usually the Battalion XO, so captains don't wan't to look bad because the BN XO will rat them out. But basically, still someone's bitch: they still make coffee for the Colonel's. Mostly admin role as XO.
O-5: LT. Colonel. Battalion Commander or Brigade XO. Battalion Commander is in charge of 2-4 Companies (so 2-4 Captains).
O-6: Colonel ("Full Bird"). Battalion Commander or Brigade XO. Usually doesn't really interact much with anyone lower except for maybe a few Captains, Lt's, 1SG's. Mainly uses the Battalion CSM to issue his orders. When the Colonel speaks, everyone listens, or faces the wrath of not only their Captain but their 1SG and Battalion CSM coming down on their ass.
O-7 and above. Your general ranks. It goes, Brigadier Gen. (Brigade Commander\Command (Like USACIDC)), Major Gen. (Brigade Commander\Command(Like USARSO or ATEC)), Lieutenant Gen. (Division\Corps\Army\Theater\Command (USACE, USMA, USARC, IMCOM, USARPAC, USANORTH)), General (Corps\Army\Theater\Command: FORSCOM, TRADOC, AMC, USAREUR) from lowest to highest. There exists a 5-star General rank, General of the Armies, but it hasn't been used since Korea and no one is promoted into that rank anymore. Generals always sit in the rear unless they are doing motto walks through your area. When a general walks through your area, everyone hates it because it fucks up your entire day (cleaning, cleaning, hurry up and wait).
Note: Nothing is said about the intelligence of any members of any of these ranks. For every horrible story you've heard about ineptness from any rank, there exists x number of counter stories about great intelligence for that rank.
Here is a good example of where you're almost entirely wrong. Read the above post for how it actually works for active duty.
medics promote notoriously slow (to E-5 and beyond) compared to, say, infantry
god help this earth if I ever become an NCO
It also varies between Active duty and Reserve/National Guard units. Guard units are notorious for never being promoted, Reserve almost always promote, and Active duty has a "balance" to it.
There are also strength requirements a unit needs to meet, staffing and slots, etc..... But that's getting way too in depth for a story.
I can't believe that in 1 more year, I'll be at 12 years. I feel salty.
Edit:
I believe the pullup issue, in the Army at least, is that it only worked your biceps, triceps, and obliques, where as the pushup worked your shoulders, biceps, triceps, chest, forearms, spine, some which are important not only for strength, but load bearing (ruck sack, body armor, vests, etc..). The situp when used with running, tests your core, the running tests your endurance and stamina, while the pushup tested more of your upper body strength.
At least, that's what I remember from my drill sergeant discussions with other drill sergeants.
Like everyone said, I couldn't possible begin to speculate on the designs of those who are in charge of this type of policy.
I am inclined to agree as to the pull up as an effective measure of upper body strength. My job in particular has me handling ammunition and it's associated equipment quite often, and those that lack upper body strength find themselves injured more often and less of an asset.
I am of the opinion that the lack of a pull-up requirement has more to do with the politics of gender equality than anything, and while standards for females are already softened quite greatly, were they to institute a pull-up requirement for men and none for women there would be an uproar.
I'm guessing that the Marines, due to having by far the smallest percentage of females and the most latitude in imposing standards, can sidestep the issue somewhat, if not entirely. As it stands, I believe their females have to do a flexed arm hang or some such nonsense in lieu of pull-ups.
Personally, I find it particularly infuriating that females are billeted to the same jobs I am, compete equally with me for rank (rightfully so, mind you) but are however held to a lower physical standard.
However, there has been a recent turnaround on the blue side in PT standards. Enforcement has become extremely strict, standards are tightening slowly but surely, and soon our fitness scores will actually factor into our evaluations. So there is hope. A good way to get kicked out of the Navy right now, sans benefits, is to fail a few PT tests.
Have things really changed that much?
I thought the minimum was 6 months TIG with 2yrs TIS. 1.5yrs is the minimum TIS needed for a waiver to E4 (or it was when I was in), so I don't even know how it could also be the minimum for E5.
Also, did they ever change the promotion point system? Not making points could prevent you from getting promoted for years if your MOS has always requires a high number of points for E5 and E6, and your unit never gets slots for any schools.
I'm sure there are write offs and waivers like every other thing in the military, though
Points are always really high for medics regardless. You better start doing correspondence courses.
The promotion point system is still around, it's still a pain in the ass if your unit never gets any schools, but they've been tweaking the amount of points you get for things...slowly. A problem they're running into is that a lot of E-4/5/6's returning from 3+ deployments have a hard time competing against an E-4/5/6 who stayed stateside and did the shit out of some online correspondence, worked on their pt, did excellent on their rifle qual, got a few awards for being upstanding back home, had the opportunity to attend army schools, and get their packet it in right, early, and without needing corrections. Slowly, the E-7's who've done absolutely nothing but attend Army schools are being phased out, and it'll works it's way down (maybe).
As for the minimum for E-5, those are the absolute minimums and require waivers. If you're being put up for E-5 at that short rate, you're a fast tracker and hot shit, because they really really don't do that, ever.
Also, the "atta boy/good boy/club" system is still in place. I've seen, in the past year, PT failures, school failures, etc... still get promoted ahead of me.
edit: Yea, if you're finding it really difficult keeping pace against your MOS, starting doing a lot of correspondence courses. I think you max out at 15-30 or something like that, but every little bit helps. Hell, you know the top guys in your MOS are doing it, so why shouldn't you?
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
Ever been around the Army? If you think the AF can lose stripes easy, your head might explode. They had pin on rank forever for a reason, "Easy on, easy off".
Man, thanks for that info. It's insanely helpful.
So, I'm considering the military right now. I won't lie, it's primarily to help pay down my student debt, but I also don't have many other career prospects at the moment and I'm getting old enough that the urge to get my long-term shit together is becoming too strong to ignore.
I'm mostly considering full-time Army, because it offers the most attractive benefits package for someone in my position.
One question I currently have, though, concerns my eyesight. Now, I'm otherwise healthy as a horse, don't take medication, and have never had any significant medical condition, but one of my eyes is approaching the maximum corrective diopter (the eye is -7.50, the limit is +/-8.00). I'm a bit worried about it getting any worse - I'd get surgery but now I'm seeing things that suggest that may disqualify me. The discussion a few pages ago suggested that maybe only certain types of surgery are an issue. Is that the case?
Also, if my eyesight were to get worse after entering service, would I get kicked to the curb?
If you need a corrective procedure, it's entirely possibly the military can do this for you too, down the road. Laser eye surgery is becoming more commonplace. I know quite a few people in the Navy who have had it done for free.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/12/16/49551-refractive-eye-surgery-program/
Mostly I just don't want to limit my options either before or after I enter just for something that I could easily avoid (either by getting surgery, getting the right kind of surgery, or avoiding surgery completely).
I said that it's easier to lose rank in the other branches.
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
Nah, blood rank is the reason the Army had pin on rank for so long.
Blood rank, blood stripes (legs), blood wings, etc...
It used to be 3 taps: 2 in the lapels of the shoulders, one in the forehead for the hat rank. Blood stripes where knees to both thighs, blood wings open hand palm to the chest. It still happens for awards, in house. Pin the award on their chest, BAM followed by handshakes and congratulations. Then of course, the gauntlet:
1st squad does an about face, 3rd and forth form at the end of the 1st and 2nd, then whomever it is runs from one side to the next, getting punched, kicked, kidney shots, etc..then faces his squad leader at the end. Platoon reforms up, 3rd squad does an about face, 1st and 2nd reform on 3rd and fourth, then the person runs from one side back to the other and faces the platoon sergeant at the end. It's all good fun, you make sure not to hit anywhere visible or too hard (because it may be your occassion next time, plus extra work you may have to cover or make up and it's just a dick move and no one likes it).
We did it for birthdays, anniversaries, re-enlistments, etc.. We even did it to our battalion CSM because at the time, we where all close, like family.
Ah, the good ol days.
What does that mean?
Anyways, that relationship self destructed after only 3 months of being deployed.
Lessoned learned. I came home (to Hawaii) and met a wonderful woman on my 72 hour pass after redeploying. We married after only dating for 4 months. We are married almost 6 years now.
Anyways, I deployed again in 08 on her birthday. This time I went into the deployment, telling myself that there is absolutly no reason to be jealous and to not let myself manifest shit in my head. I knew that she would be going out with friends, fuck I'm deployed she deserves to have some fun.
I would talk to her as much as I could, but kept the conversation light. Never, oh god I miss you so much! I can't stand life without you crap.
15 months and nearly 400 bomb disposals later. I'm home, we are still happily married and never once did she or I get jealous!
Just go on your deployment with the mindset that you don't need to control her life to be happy.
― John Quincy Adams